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. . . 

i *oru  ropeA^ 



Thomas  E.  Jeffrey 

Microfilm  Editor  and  Associate  Director 

Paul  B.  Israel 
Assistant  Editor 

Mary  Ann  Hellrigel  Douglas  G.  Tarr 

David  W.  Hutchings  Robert  A.  Rosenberg 

Editorial  Associates 

John  Deasey 
Barbara  B.  Tomblin 
Jacquelyn  Miller 
Maria  Antonakakls 

Student  Assistants 

Keith  A.  Nler 
Assistant  Editor 

Reese  V.  Jenkins 
Director  and  Editor 

Leonard  DeGraaf 
Joseph  P.  Sullivan 
Alan  Stein 
Karen  Kozak 


Rutgers,  The  State  University  of  New  Jersey 
National  Park  Service,  Edison  National  Historic  Site 
New  Jersey  Historical  Commission 
Smithsonian  Institution 

University  Publications  of  America 
Frederick,  Maryland 


Reese  V.  Jenkins 
Director  and  Editor 

Thomas  E.  Jeffrey 

Associate  Director  and  Microfilm  Editor 

Assistant  Editors 
Paul  B.  Israel 
Robert  A.  Rosenberg 
Keith  A.  Nier 
Andrew  Butrica 

Assistant  to  the  Director  Secretary 

Helen  Endlck  Grace  Kurkowski 

Research  Associates 
Douglas  G.  Tarr 
Mary  Ann  Hellrigcl 
David  W.  Hutchings 


Rutgers,  The  State  University  of 
New  Jersey 

Edward  J.  Bloustein 
T.  Alexander  Pond 
Tilden  G.  Edelstein 
John  Gillis 

New  Jersey  Historical  Commission 
Bernard  Bush 
Howard  L.  Green 

National  Park  Service,  Edison 
National  Historic  Site 
Roy  W.  Weaver 
Edward  J.  Pershey 

Bernard  Finn 
Arthur  P.  Moiclla 


James  Brittain,  Georgia  Institute  of  Technology 
Alfred  D.  Chandler,  Jr.,  Harvard  University 
Neil  Harris,  University  of  Chicago 
Thomas  Parke  Hughes,  University  of  Pennsylvania 
Arthur  Link,  Princeton  University 
Nathan  Reingoid,  Smithsonian  Institution 
Robert  E.  Schofield,  Iowa  State  University 


William  C.  Hittinger  (chairman),  RCA  Corporation 
Edward  J.  Bloustein,  Rutgers,  The  State  University  of  N.J. 
Cees  Bruynes,  North  American  Philips  Corporation 
Paul  J.  Christiansen,  Charles  Edison  Fund 
Philip  F.  Dietz,  Westinghouse  Electric  Corporation 
Roland  W.  Schmitt,  General  Electric  Corporation 
Harold  W.  Sonn,  Public  Service  Electric  and  Gas  Company 
Morris  Tanenbaum,  AT&T 



Alfred  P.  Sloan  Foundation 
Charles  Edison  Fund 
The  Hyde  and  Watson  foundation 
Geraldine  R.  Dodge  foundation 


National  Science  foundation 
National  Endowment  for  the  Humanities 


Alabama  Power  Company 
Amerada  Hess  Corporation 

Atlantic  Electric 

Association  of  Edison  Illuminating 

Battelle  Memorial  Institute  foundation 
The  Boston  Edison  foundation 
Cabot  Corporation  foundation 
Carolina  Power  and  Light  Company 
Consolidated  Edison  Company  of 
New  York,  Inc. 

Consumers  Power  Company 
Coming  Glass  Works  foundation 
Duke  Power  Company 
Exxon  Corporation 
Florida  Power  &  Light  Company 
General  Electric  foundation 
Gould  Inc.  foundation 
Gulf  States  Utilities  Company 
Idaho  Power  Company 
International  Brotherhood  of  Electrical 

Iowa  Power  and  Light  Company 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  Stanley  H.  Katz 
Matsushita  Electric  Industrial  Co.,  Ltd. 
McGraw-Edison  Company 
Middle  South  Services,  Inc. 

Minnesota  Power 

New  Jersey  Bell  Telephone  Company 
New  York  State  Electric  &  Gas 

North  American  Philips  Corporation 

Philips  International  B.V. 

Public  Service  Electric  and  Gas 
RCA  Corporation 
Robert  Bosch  GmbH 
San  Diego  Gas  &  Electric 
Savannah  Electric  and  Power  Company 
Schering  Plough  foundation 
Texas  Utilities  Company 
Transamerica  Delaval  Inc. 
Westinghouse  Educational  foundation 
Wisconsin  Public  Service 

A  Note  on  the  Sources 

The  pages  which  have  been 
filmed  are  the  best  copies 
available.  Every  technical 
effort  possible  has  been 
made  to  ensure  legibility. 


Rsel  duplication  of  the  whole  or  of 
any  part  of  this  film  is  prohibited. 
In  lieu  of  transcripts,  however, 
enlarged  photocopies  of  selected 
items  contained  on  these  reels 
may  be  made  in  order  to  facilitate 


PART  n 

REEL  46 

Patent  Interferences 

Court  Records 
Seyfert  v.  Edison 


The  Litigation  Series  contains  the  printed  records  of  civil  court  litigation, 
along  with  the  records  of  Patent  Office  interferences,  which  are  similar  in  many 
respects  to  litigation.  These  records  consist  of  pleadings,  testimony,  exhibits, 
attorneys'  briefs  and  arguments,  and  decisions  and  opinions  of  the  court  or  hearing 
examiner.  6 

During  the  1880s  Edison  was  involved  in  several  patent  interferences  relating 
to  his  work  in  electric  lighting.  Of  particular  importance  is  the  interference  with 
William  E.  Sawyer  and  Albon  Man  over  Edison's  carbon  lamp  patent  (U.S.  Patent 
No.  223,898),  which  later  moved  to  the  federal  courts  as  a  patent  infringement  suit 
brought  by  the  Edison  Electric  Light  Company  (see  below).  All  of  the  remaining 
interferences  also  concern  electric  light  patents,  except  for  one  interference  with 
Henry  C.  Nicholson  regarding  duplex  telegraph  patents.  The  patent  interferences 
provide  valuable  information  about  Edison's  work  in  electric  lighting  and  power, 
electric  traction,  and  duplex  telegraphy,  as  well  as  documentation  about  the 
operation  of  the  Menlo  Park  Laboratory.  All  of  the  interferences  have  been  filmed 
except  for  a  handwritten  copy  of  the  testimony  on  behalf  of  Edward  Weston  in  an 
interference  over  the  electrical  transmission  of  power.  Another  set  of  patent 
interferences  from  the  1880s,  relating  to  conflicting  claims  over  telephone 
inventions,  can  be  found  in  Thomas  A.  Edison  Papers  Microfilm  Edition.  Part  I.  reel 

The  printed  court  records  for  the  period  1879-1886  pertain  to  four  separate 
cases.  The  earliest  case  involves  a  suit  brought  against  Edison  in  1880  by  Lucy 
Seyfert.  Mrs.  Seyfert  was  the  widow  of  an  investor  in  the  Automatic  Telegraph 
Company  who  had  loaned  Edison  money  as  part  of  a  business  arrangement  regarding 
Edison's  automatic  telegraph  patents*  She  brought  suit  against  Edison  in  order  to 
collect  on  a  promissory  note.  The  testimony  in  this  case  provides  insight  into 
Edison's  relations  with  his  financial  backers  and  his  financial  difficulties  during  the 

The  patent  infringement  suit  against  Sawyer  and  Man  —  Edison  Electric  Light 
gompany  v.  United  States  Electric  Lighting  Company  —  was  the  most  important 
piece  of  electric  light  litigation  brought  by  the  Edison  interests  and  the  only 
electric  light  suit  initiated  prior  to  1887.  Included  as  exhibits  in  this  case  are  parts 
of  the  printed  records  from  the  earlier  patent  interference  (Sawyer  and  Man  v. 
fciison)  and  from  two  contemporary  electric  light  cases  (the  McKeesport  Case  and 
the  Trenton  Feeder  Case).  Together,  these  records  constitute  a  particularly 
valuable  source  for  documenting  Edison's  work  in  electric  lighting. 

Two  related  patent  infringement  suits  were  brought  by  the  Edison  and  Swan 
United  Electric  Light  Company,  Ltd.  against  the  partnership  of  Woodhouse  & 
Rawson.  These  suits  were  argued  strictly  on  technical  points  concerning  the 
validity  of  the  various  patents.  Another  British  infringement  case  concerns  the 
telephone  patents  of  Edison  and  Alexander  Graham  Bell.  The  arguments  in  this 
case  were  also  narrowly  confined  to  technical  issues  regarding  the  validity  of  the 
patents.  Beyond  documenting  Edison's  patent  claims,  these  British  cases  do  not 
provide  insight  into  Edison  or  his  work,  and  they  have  not  been  filmed. 

The  following  documents  comprise  the  Litigation  Series: 

1.  Bound  Dynamo  Cases 

a.  Edison  v.  Siemens  v.  Field  (1881) 

b.  Keith  v.  Edison  v.  Brush  (1881) 

2.  Miscellaneous  Bound  Interferences 

a-  Mather^.  Edison  v.  Scribner  (1 883  -  dynamo  or  magneto  electric 

b.  Edison  v.  Lanev.  Gray  v.  Rose  v.  Gilliland  (1 8S2  -  magneto  electric 

c.  Edison  V.  Nicholson  (1880 -duplex  telegraphy) 

d-  Sawy^andMan  v.  Edison  (1881  -  lamp  filament  [U.S.  Patent  No. 

e*  gfepn  Electric  Light  Company  v.  United  States  Electric  Lighting 

^bUI  °f  mplalntJ  (I88j  - lamP  filament  LU.S.  Patent  No. 

3.  Unbound  Interferences 

a.  Edison  v.  Gray  &  als.  (1883  -  magneto  electric  machines) 

b.  Edison  v.  Maxim  v.  Swan  (1883  -  electric  lamp) 

c.  Edison  v.  Sprague  (1885  -  electric  meters) 

d.  Sprague  v.  Edison  (1885  -  electric  meters,  case  B) 

e.  yeston  v.  Edison  (1882  -  dynamos  or  magneto  electric  machines) 

f.  Weston  v.  Edison  (1883  -  electrical  transmission  of  power)  NOT  FILMED 


1.  Seyfert  v.  Edison  (1880  -  suit  over  Edison  promissory  note) 

2>  nr!°n|^1,eCtriC,LiRht  ComPan>r  v‘  United  States  Electric  Lighting  Company 
0885-1892  -  infringement,  lamp  filament  [U.S.  Patent  No.  223,898]) 

3"  V’  W°0dh0USeand  RaWSOn  (188fi  -  rarhnn  lamp  pa-^-i 

**  y.tPih0ne  C°mpan^  Ltd‘  v-  H^rison,  Cox-Walker  and  Company 

0882  -  telephone  patent  infringement  case)  NOT  FILMED - — 

Bound  Dynamo  Cases,  1881 

This  volume  contains  the  printed  record  of  testimony  on  behalf  of  Edison 
from  two  patent  interferences  in  1881.  The  spine  is  stamped  "Edison  Testimony 
Edison  vs.  Siemens  vs.  Field  Electric  Railroad"  and  "Edison  Testimony  Keith  vs. 
s.  Brush  On  Dynamo  Electric  Machines  1881  Chas.  Batchelor." 

The  following  cases  comprise  this  volume: 

v!  ftemens  vVFidd~  7,115  218~page  pamphlet  contains  testimony  by 
Edison,  Charles  L.  Clarke,  Francis  R.  Upton,  and  other  associates  concerning 
Edison  s  efforts  to  design  and  construct  an  electric  railroad  at  Menlo  Park  in  1880. 

Frf:«on(2)-nr%V‘  -ftS£n  v-  Brush  This  119-page  pamphlet  contains  testimony  by 
Edison,  John  Kruesi,  Francis  R.  Upton,  and  other  associates  concerning  Edison's 
work  on  the  dynamo  between  1878  and  1881.  Edison's  testimony  also  contains 
significant  references  to  his  activities  between  1869  and  1873. 





Mii'-'nctic  I 

To  F.  L.  Pope,  Att’y  fob  S.  D.  Field: 

Please  take  notice  that  on  Wednesday,  November 
ICtli,  18S1,  at  ten  o’clock  A.  M.,  at  No.  05  Fifth 
avenue,  New  York  City,  I  will  proceed  to  take  the  3 
testimony  of  Tlios.  A.  Edison,  Chas.  L.  Clarke, 
Francis  E.  Upton,  Julius  Homig  and  others,  in  be¬ 
half  of  said  Edison,  and  continue  the  examination 
from  day  to  day  until  completed. 

You  are  invited  to  be  present  and  cross-examine. 

Dyer  &  Wilber, 

For  T.  A.  Edison. 

Good  service  this  14  day  of  November,  1SS1. 

Fraxk  L.  Pope, 

Att’y  for  Field.  4 

IN  THE  U.  fv  PATRVrr  m'nnr 

Julius  L.  Hornig.  3 





Pursuant  to  the  foregoing  notices  the  parties  at¬ 
tended  before  me  at  No.  G5  Fifth  avenue,  New 
York  City,  this  10th  day  of  November,  1SS1,  at  10 
o’clock  A.  M.,  for  the  purpose  set  forth  in  said 

Present— Geo.  W.  Dyer,  Esq,  Counsel  for  Edison, 
C.  S.  Whitman*,  Esq.,  Counsel  for  Siemens,  Wm.  D. 
Baldwin*,  and  F.  W.  Whitridge  Esqs.,  Counsel 
for  Field. 

Wm.  H.  Meadowcroft, 

Notary  Public, 

New  York  County. 

Julius  L.  Horntg,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf 
of  Mr.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  follows, 
in  answer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  George 
W.  Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison  : 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 

A.  Julius  L.  Hornig;  Jersey  City,  N.  J.;  me¬ 
chanical  engineer;  age,  52. 

Q.  2.  Did  you  enter  into  the  employ  of  Mr.  Thos. 
A.  Edison,  and  if  so,  when  and  where,  and  in  what 

A.  I  entered  Jan  4,  1SS0,  in  the  capacity  of 
draughtsman,  at  Menlo  Park,  to  design  central 

Q.  3.  At  what  time,  if  ever,  did  Mr.  Edison  set 
you  at  work  upon  his  electric  railway? 

13  A.  The  latter  part  of  March,  1SS0. 

Q.  4.  In  wlmt  capacity  ? 

. .  * 

A.  The  first  part  of  April,  1S8P. 

raifroad Track?" ^  ”*  C<J,”"Hmcod  at  laying  tlio 

«  q  rF wLT, wftf  t,,is,onicu’ Al,riI  «so. 

he  fit  for  operation?^ 10  ^  s°  »  to 

nectcdbJjbJ  “"‘'IS?  "LMli  a11  ready  alul  «»■ 

thSrailraadT  dW  8,eCtric  Antonin  over 
A.  May  13,  issn. 

lastmenti”  S  O'or  1,10 '^road  the  date 
“  toU.. 


two  axles  with  isolated  Sf’  Trie<1  °» 
front  or  driving  wheoIg  ^  mils.  The 

wheel  fastened  to  their  axle  and  re  "?,'iction 
from  the  armature  shaft,  the’  iattor  1  °-I'C<I  l,,otion 
also  with  a  friction  wheel  An  .  be‘!!g  Provided 
wheel,  operated  by  hand  of  the  e„  J!l  "le<  !ato  fricti°n 
power  from  the  armature  to  m"S,nitted 

1C  The  rear  wheels  and  axle  win  °  dnving  wheels, 
frame,  were  merely  for’ca’rry  ,,g  ^  tho 

driving  wheels  being  isolated  of  tb» 

ceived  the  electric  cunenthv1  tho  '"otor,  re- 
Brashes  took  the  current  from  f  °l  "Ith  tllu  lni,s- 
the  motor.  A  brake  lever  to  1  rant  n""3  tllroi,gh 
change  contacts  was  provided  so  n  t',f1currB»t  or 
could  produce  forward  T  the  Orator 

"“for.  or  break  the  passaJ  of  motlo“  of  the 
motor;  that  is,  stop  its  actioi,  T‘  H,rwWh  the 


to  operate  a  lever  which  operated  four  contact 
levers,  to  break  the  current  in  four  points  at  a  given 
speed  of  governor.  A  brake  lever  was  also  provided 
to  brake  on  the  friction  wheel  of  the  driving  shaft 
for  stopping  or  retarding  the  speed  of  the  motor. 
A  customary  buffer  and  coupling  link  at  the  rear  of 
the  locomotive  was  provided  to  connect  tho  passen¬ 
ger  car.  The  passenger  car  was  a  platform  car 
with  springs  resting  on  two  axles  with  isolated  car- 
wheels.  Seats  were  on  the  platform  for  six  passen¬ 
gers.  Couplings  and  brakes  were  provided  in  the 

Q.  in.  Please  describe 
the  method  and  apparat 
ceived  from  the  rails  ini 

more  fully  and  more  clearly 
is  by  which  the  current  re- 
]  the  locomotive  caused  the 

A.  From  the  insulated  tiro  of  the  driving  wheel 
through  a  metallic  spider  provided  with  a  hub  of 
small  diameter,  the  brush  would  take  up  the  current 
■  from  the  hub.  The  brush  fastened  to  the  platform 
of  the  locomotive  was  insulated  and  connected  by  19 
wire  to  tho  band-brake  or  reversing  contact  appa¬ 
ratus.  From  this  apparatus  wires  would  connect  to 
the  field  and  armature  of  the  dynamo  machine  and 
produce  motion,  one  rail  carrying  to  one  line  of  wires, 

_ n _ a  in  make  the  circuit.  The 

tion  of  the  dynamo  machine,  being  provided  with  a 
friction  wheel,  transmitted  motion  to  the  driving 
wheel  by  means  of  friction  wheels. 

Q.  11.  What  means,  if  any,  were  adopted  to  make  20 
the  rails  conductors  of  electricity  throughout  the 
length  of  the  track? 

A.  The  rails  were  laid  free  from  the  ground  on 
wooden  ties,  spiked  to  those  ties.  The  rails  were 
connected  for  continuation  by  means  of  fish  plates 
and  copper  rods,  the  rods  being  clamped  against  the 
rails  by  the  fish  plates. 

Q.  12.  Was  care  exercised  with  regard  to  the  size 
of  the  ties  and  the  length  of  the  spikes?  If  so,  for 

what  purpose! 

nek  not  tole't °tlh»S< °IeC-t^1  1,0  of  sufficient  thick- 
through  them  into  tlie0^  °  SI>iko  Ponotrato 
keeping  the  mil  insulated.  ^  ’  ''  tho  I",rPosu  of 

in  these  rails*  M  *  Clur0llt;  of  electricity  produced 

atlinSS  " !SS7W  *a  — ™  engine 
conducted  by  mea,  s  °  cn™nt-  whick  "as 
across  a  street  to  the  nearest  endof  tl  Und"'*ro,,nd 
22  railroad  track.  1  f  tlle  m,ls  of  the 

a,ul  the 

sion  at  MenloTark.  ^  niachiMe  shoP  and  its  extern 

trically  at  irenlo'park'befml  ‘'aill'oad  train  mil  elec- 
m  the  locomotive?  ny  chanSe  was  made 

°UtWa‘'d  «P  "ken  one  friction 

23  ™£Z™:r  ChanS°  made  ‘ken;  if  so,  what 

friction  wheekeadoDtiM-adenat  °nce’  ron,ov«ig  the 
at  the  rear,  kelts,  adding 

pulleys  for  suitable  transmission  Shaf‘  with 
A  tL  i!am  k°'v  that  was  done? 
a  beit  to  the  Villon  7^°  ^  means  of 

-  transmit  motion  to  the  1,  *  ',mter  shaft,  would 
4  Pulley  on  this  coumerabaft' foT'*?’  fr°m  a  «*ond 

mg  axle  by  means  of  a  belt  °n  ‘ke  driv- 

locomotive.  ,llotlon  was  given  to  the 

th2  changed  mUCh  hme  Was  occupied  in  making 
o‘mbw  24h°um- 

trically  resumed'Ifterthis11?1  U1K  °f  the  trains  elec- 


fmins  electrically,  ,8aSLSs?therUlln^of  ‘kese 

A  41 

Julius  L.  Homig.  7 

A.  Almost  daily  for  the  following  season. 

Q.  21.  Are  that  locomotive  and  that  car  still  at 
Menlo  Park? 

A.  They  are 

Q.  22.  Fit  for  present  use? 

A.  Apparently  in  complete  order. 
Cross-examination  by  F.  W.  Wiiitridge,  of  coun¬ 
sel  for  Field: 

x-Q.  23.  Please  explain  more  fully  what  you  mean 
by  being  employed  in  the  capacity  of  draughtsman, 
to  design  central  stations? 

A.  Mr.  Edison  was  exhibiting  then  at  Menlo 
Park  his  incandescent  light;  he  had  some  dynamo 
machines  in  operation,  and  contemplated  to  erect 
central  stations  for  electric  lighting  purposes;  I  was 
expected  to  make  building  plans,  arranging  steam 
machinery  to  drive  his  dynamo  machines  in  central 
station  plants. 

x-Q.  24.  Was  that  what  you  were  engaged  for  by 

A.  That  was  my  first  understanding  of  occupa¬ 

x-Q.  25.  What  kind  ofidynamo  machines  had  he 
there  at  that  time?  ■ 

A.  Single  machines. 

x-Q.  20.  How  many  of  them  were  there? 

A.  There  were  three  or  four  in  operation;  others 
under  construction. 

x-Q.  27.  Whose  machines  were  those  which  were 
in  operation?  ■ 

A.  They  were  Edison’s  machines,  made  by  him. 

x-Q.  28.  For  what  purpose  were  they  in  operation 
•  at  that  time? 

A.  These  machines  referred  to  were  producing 
current  for  light. 

x-Q.  29.  Were  those  which  were  being  con¬ 
structed  of  the  same  sort  as  those  which  were  in 

A.  They  were  of  the  same  sort. 

x-Q.  30.  How  long  did  you  continue  to  be  em¬ 
ployed  in  designing  these  central  stations? 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

29  V  n'^tl,w°7"issi0"s’  up  to  the  Present  time. 

\  Q.  31.  M hat  portion  of  the  time  was  occupied 
•))  those  intermissions'; 

A  rrohably  one-lmlf  of  the  time. 
tenniss^sJVI,at'VOr<!  y°U  d°i,,g  durinB  «•«»  in. 
A.  Constructing  ap,,amtusand  making  plants  for 

Z «T“ta  in  Mr-  E,lison’s  busi‘ - 

a  t  |nipi'ovenients  of  your  own! 

"  COnStlUC- 

the  most  o/'tllis^pono.f  of  ’  **' that  during 
"•ere  employed  upon  matte  ’  y°"  Spcak  3'011 
electric  light?  nMttcrB  connocte(l  with  the 

31  A-  1  stated  half  tho  time. 

whi£  ^n^rSifled11:  0tI;erba'f  °f  t*10  time 
Edison’s  inventions  did  vn  i*  d,V,ded  nni°»g  Mr. 
railway?  "S  d,(1  }  011  dev°t“  to  the  electrical 

t0AvUtnim!C  ?f  jt-  P^Ps- 

unde«tandyoTLmctiyfthatb0  fair  ^  if  1 

“  small  portion  of  this  tin  l  °omI)arative>y  only 
electrical  railway?  ‘  'vas  devoted  to  the 

iQA3bS°UWhe?rTtei'  °f  "»•  «»>e. 

it!  '“d,,i b.8lMo„ortupol 

A.  At  the  end  of  _ 

X.'oA3t0thW,ndOfMa,'Cl1’  1S80. 

A-  T^S^^^ttold  you  to  do? 
rack.  ,lalf  a  mile  of  experimental 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

A.  He  ordered  me  to  lay  the  track. 

x-Q.  42.  Did  he  tell  you  what  kind  of  track  he 
wanted  laid? 

A.  I  understood  the  experimental  railroad  to  be 
similar  to  portable  tracks  in  the  market. 

x-Q.  43.  Do  I  understand  you  to  mean  by  that 
that  Mr.  Edison  gave  you  no  specific  instruction 
about  the  rails  and  track? 

A.  Xo  specific  instruction  in  the  size  of  rail  or 
gauge  of  track,  which  is  depending  from  the  con¬ 
struction  of  locomotive,  adopting  one  of  his  dynamo 
machines  on  hand. 

Counsel  for  Field  desires  memorandum 
made  that  the  witness  has  stated  that  the 
sentence,  down  to  the  words  “which  is,-’  is 
his  answer  to  the  question,  and  that  counsel 
has  requested  the  rest  of  the  witness’s  re¬ 
marks  to  be  stricken  out;  and  he  moves  that 
the  same  be  stricken  out  accordingly,  as  irre- 
sponsive  and  irrelevant. 

x-Q.  44.  Did  he  give  you  any  specific  instruction 
about  the  track? 

A.  The  track  to  be  perfectly  insulated,  and  con¬ 
nected  as  described  above. 

x-Q.  45.  How  long  was  your  conversation  with 
Mr.  Edison  at  this  time— when  he  gave  you  this 

A.  Mr.  Edison  gave  directions  during  the  entire 
construction;  when  he  gave  the  order  for  laying  the 
track  the  conversation  was  short. 

x-Q.  40.  Having  received  this  order  from  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son,  did  you  immediately  order  the  rails  for  the 

A.  Yes;  immediately. 

x-Q.  47.  How  long  was  it  before  you  got  them? 

A.  Eight  or  nine  days  after  the  order  was  given 
from  the  office,  the  rails  were  laid  at  Menlo  Park. 

x-Q.  48.  And  in  the  manner  directed  by  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son  at  the  time  when  he  gave  you  the  order? 

A.  Yes. 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

x-Q.  4».  You  have  testified  that  among  the  spe¬ 
cific  instructions  about  the  laying  of  the  track,  at 
the  time  the  order  was  given,  it  was  directed  that 
the  track  was  to  be  perfectly  insulated;  was  the 
manner  of  effecting  that  insulation  described  at  the 
same  time? 

Counsel  for  Edison  objects  to  the  foregoing 
question  as  an  incorrect  statement  of  what 
the  witness  has  testified  to. 

A.  At  that  time  he  probably  did  not  give  me  the 
specific  instructions  for  insulating  the  track. 

am  f't  y°U  SU,U  "’I,utller  lle  ,li<1  or  noU 

>•“  “  «•»  tl»» 

menccd°f010  thofln,t  pln,w  of  Io«»mot!vo  were  com- 

TV2’  ^°ni"'h0ni  lIid  y°u  K°t  them | 

A.  From  Mr.  Edison. 

can?Q"  5:1  GiV0  thG  time  °f  tl,0,n- “  ttowly  as  you 

AprH.About  th0  eml  °f  or  beginning  of 

x-Q.  54.  Was  the  track  constructed  in  this  resnect 
,n  accordanco  with  the  instructions?  1 
A'n  understood  by  me. 
x-Q.  55.  Did  you  receive  more  than  one  sot  of  in 
A  h!tahUrlhe  insulation  of  the  track? 

.  ,  1  Put  questions  to  Mr.  Edison  in  refe, * 

ltis  iusti'uctions  probaldy'at  ^a 

AQt£-  the  Perfectly  insulated? 
tiotbv  order  of  Mr*  %$**  *  to  insula- 

and  was  proved  saJisfaSon  y  Propep  >)aife- 

AQMr°nTh°  tIle  l,ai'ties? 

A0JIh  UPton  or  his  assistants. 

A.  From  renorN°£rIvei  kn°i'V  il  'vas  satisfactory? 
Edison.  an<l  conv°i'satioiis  with  Mr. 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

x  Q.  5S.  After  you  had  received  some  of  his  in-  4] 
structions  of  which  you  have  spoken  of  insulating 
the  track,  what  were  the  questions  that  you  asked 
Mr.  Edison  to  which  you  refer  in  your  answer  to 
the  54th  cross-question? 

A.  The  question  was  what  special  connection,  if 
any,  was  required  between  the  connecting  rails,  and 
lie  devised  copper  bars  to  form  this  connection. 

x-Q.  5U.  A  portion  of  these  devices  therefore  were 
made  in  response  to  your  questions,  and  did  not 
form  a  part  of  the  original  instructions?  42 

A.  Details  for  and  during  construction  would 
come  before  me  to  get  special  information  and  in¬ 
struction,  explaining  more  fully  the  general  direc¬ 
tions  I  had  received. 

Counsel  for  Field  objects  to  the  answer  as 
irresponsive,  and  moves  to  strike  it  out. 

x-Q.  CO.  Question  repeated. 

A.  I  could  not  state  that;  I  got  information  when¬ 
ever  I  asked  for  it. 

x-Q.  ill.  About  how  often  did  you  have  to  ask 
for  additional  information? 

A.  A  few  times,  at  the  beginning  of  the  con¬ 
st  ruction. 

x-Q.  02.  While  you  were  having  the  track  con¬ 
structed  were  you  also  doing  any  other  work  for 
Mr.  Edison? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  of  any  other  before  the 
railroad  was  m  operation,  which  was  about  May 
13th,  1S80. 

x-Q.  03.  After  the  railroad  went  into  operation 
what  did  your  work  consist  of? 

A.  I  made  various  constructions  for  the  locomo¬ 
tive  to  be  operated  by  metallic  belts  or  gear  move¬ 
ments  during  June  and  July,  1SS0. 

x-Q.  04.  Were  you  occupied  altogether  with  that 
work  during  that  time? 

A.  Most  of  the  time. 

x-Q.  05.  This  was  after  the  substitution  for  the 
friction  wheels  to  which  you  have  referred? 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

a.  l  es. 

x-Q.  MO.  Was  this  matter  all  of  the  work  which 
}<>«  (lid  upon  the  locomotive  at  this  time? 

“  Jon  -  »ta' 
A' ,D“ri"g  tllc  twiner  or  fall  of  ISSO. 
wen.  JlSi 1 )o -vou  ‘«  siy  that  these  .ha  wines 

A.  the  same  class  of  dywtiho  machine  hut  s--.ii 

however  'conswJ.Vilfv"1"’"  oluctrlc  locomotive, 
devices  whiei.  "'ork  "P°"  *!»•«  device  or 

.,SJ0-A""  l'“*  "*«»  »..!;•  ™rk  y„,n, 
A-  Y“s>  “poll  this  lomocotive. 

for  freight  purposes.  pn88en«or' tho  «M>hd 

AQA?'thJh<3ndilly0U  mak°tI>osc? 
cam  being  ordered  at  the  Imie^1000"101"^  «>'«! 

"'1,ore  ™  •»»>».«*  „.,U  »•„„ 

Part  of  the  fmme  and  gem-in'r  Ciat,  Mo,,I°  Paik- 

Iron  Works  of  Brooklyn  hy  the  Pioneer 

and  wheels  were  furnish^  hv  he  T8'  The  axle* 
Ponndry,  and  finished  £  City  Ca>' 
tlie  Pioneer  Iron  Works  '  “  f  Insulation  by 

x  Q-  la-  When  was  this  all  done? 

a.  During  April.  4-j 

x-Q.  70.  How  did  you  come  to  know  about  it? 

A.  I  attended  personally,  instructing  the  Pioneer 
Iron  Works  concerning  the  plans  and  have  the 
dates  from  records  kept  at  this  office. 

x-Q.  77.  I  understood  you  to  testify  that  yon  had 
done  no  work  on  this  locomotive  except  with  refer¬ 
ence  to  the  substitution  for  the  friction  wheels. 
How  then  does  it  happen  that  you  attended  to  these 

A.  I  have  testified,  I  understand,  that  I  made  the  50 
plans  of  the  first  locomotive  which  had  tho  friction 

x-Q.  7S.  When  did  you  make  those  plans? 

A.  During  the  latter  part  of  March  and  during 
April.  ISSO. 

x-Q.  70.  Were  these  plans  for  the  direct  acting 
motor  for  express  packages,  or  for  this  electric  loco¬ 

A.  The  first  plans  made  were  for  the  locomotive. 

The  plans  for  the  direct  acting  motor  were  made  61 

x-Q.  SO.  When  you  testified  that  your  only  work 
upon  this  locomotive  was  with  reference  to  the  sub¬ 
stitution  for  the  friction  wheels,  had  you  forgotten 
that  you  mado  the  plans  for  the  locomotive,  or  do 
you  mean  that  the  plans  you  mado  were  for  the 
friction  wheels  for  which  you  subsequently  substi¬ 
tuted  something  else. 

A.  No;  I  had  not  forgotten  it;  and  in  so  stating 
I  referred  to  the  work  I  did  after  the  road  was  in  52 

x-Q.  SI.  Were  those  plans  complete? 

A.  General  and  detail  plans  were  made  to  enable 
the  mechanics  to  construct  the  machine. 

x-Q.  S2.  Did  you  make  the  whole  of  them? 

A.  I  did. 

x-Q.  S3.  How  did  you  come  to  make  them? 

A.  By  order  and  direction  of  Mr.  Edison. 

x-Q.  St.  Give  a  general  account  of  your  orders  in 

~l  M  »■«!.«  rail. 

1S$0,  having  desired  ■!  v,..n! ,°  ."tlor  1,art  of  Murdi, 

instructions  and  infoiim.tL?'  W  rai18  nt  0,lce-  A,«> 

*«. » .r,«;,sr 

me.  mul  out>  were  given  to 

Ss<;,f  w  a"  ™,’  ->«■>- 

wed  to  experiment -dmm  -  abo,lt  'vll;,t  h?  do- 
A.  .Mr.  Edison  no.,'  \""V  "Wnihs  Moni 

I  stated  before.  1,1  il  '•°»vorsntion  what 

tje  iLs  of  tjmlo^mSvc  ^ 

A-^Omi,  ^V°le  t,lc“-  0lai  or  written? 

'vlmle^of  timin'?  ^  "  Um  "'c,  e  J'ou  >'«  getting  the 

I  was  wiistnict!ng,“  "*j  a"-L°ut  aImost  da%  while 
Place.  b’  ni8*'»8  conversations  took 

to  n.Ske9t]l^yn™nem''e--whenyou  fu*t  began 

X'Q-  oT  S  you ‘ha^n 11,0  °"d  of  M««h. 

*Q ,Tsr"””«w. 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

those  plans,  and  are  you  sure  that  they  were  entire-  57 
ly  oral,  as  you  have  testified; 

A.  Mr.  Edison  lias  made  occasionally  sketches  in 
perspective,  and  has  given  me  for  other  designs 
some  such  sketches;  but  I  am  not  aware  that  I  have 
one  such  sketch  in  reference  to  this  railroad  con¬ 

x-Q.  Do  I  understand  you  correctly  therefore, 
that  the  information  furnished  you  113-  Mr.  Edison 
was  less  specific  in  this  case,  than  in  the  caseof  other 
designs  which  you  have  above  referred  to?  5S 

A.  I  do  not  consider  it  less  specific.  Some  hasty 
instructions  were  given  by  him  occasionally  by  per¬ 
spective  sketches.  I  do  not  consider  this  less  spe¬ 
cific  because  he  did  not  give  me  sketches. 

x-Q.  1)4.  How  long  a  time  were  you  in  completing 
the  drawings? 

A.  From  March  to  the  middle  of  May. 

x-Q.  1)5.  The  engine  which  ran  upon  May  1 3th 
was  exactly  and  in  all  respects  represented  by  those 
drawings,  was  it?  59 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  90.  When  was  the  engine  taken  off  after  it 
was  .first  used? 

A.  It  was  used  one  outward  trip,  and  about  24 
hours  later  it  was  operated  by  belts  and  kept  in 
operation  for  the  season. 

■  x-Q.  97.  Why  were  the  belts  substituted  for  the 
friction  wheel? 

A.  Mr.  Edison  gave  directions  at  once  to  make  a 
belt  connection  and  get  the  locomotive  miming  00 
without  delay,  after  the  breakage  of  the  friction 

x-Q.  OS.  Why  did  the  friction  wheel  break,  do 
you  know? 

A.  The  friction  wheel  which  broke  was  made  in 
two  halves  bolted  together  and  keyed  to  the  driving 
axle.  Imperfect  fitting  or  accidental  abuse  of  these 
working  parts  may  have  caused  the  breakage. 

x-Q.  99.  Do  3rou  know  why  the  engine  was  not 
repaired  in  accordance  with  the  original  design? 

A.  1  do  not. 

x-Q.  10O.  You  hoard  nothing  said  about  that! 

A.  Xothing.  . 

x-Q.  101.  You  mndo  the  plans  for  the  device  sub¬ 
stituted  for  the  friction  wheels,  did  you  not! 

A  1  made  diagram  lilies  at  once  on  the  general 
plan,  adopting  pulleys  then  on  hand  in  the  machine 
shoii  of  Menlo  Park. 

x-Q.  102.  Do  you  rotiimnber  what  time  of  day 
that  was! 

A.  Evening. 

x-Q.  103.  What  time  of  day  did  the  engine  break 

A.  Towards  evening. 

x-Q.  104.  How  did  you  come  to  make  these  plans? 
A.  Mr.  Batchelor  and  Mr.  Kruesi  were  directed 
at  once  by  Mr.  Edison  to  find  pulleys.  My  atten- 
tion  was  called  to  arranging  the  placing  of  such 
pulleys  suitably  to  the  space  in  the  frame  of  the 

63  x-Q.  lOfi.  Which  of  these  gentlemen  called  your 
attention  to  that? 

A.  Mr.  Batchelor  or  Mr.  Kruesi. 
x-Q.  10(1.  And  the  improvement  in  the  engine  was 
made  the  next  day  in  accordance  with  the  diagrams 
made  in  accordance  with  these  suggestions,  was  it? 

A.  Yes.  They  were  started  thesame  evening  and 
completed  the  next  day. 

x-Q.  107.  Has  the  engine  in  its  present  condition 
been  in  any  respect  altered  since  this  alteration  of 
G4  which  you  have  been  speaking. 

A.  The  engine  is  identically  the  same  way  fitted 
up  as  it  was  in  operation  formerly  under  belt  con¬ 
nection.  The  only  addition  is  the  brush  arrange¬ 
ment  for  the  rear  wheels,  which  is  the  same  as  was 
first  applied  for  the  driving  wheels  only. 

x-Q.  108.  Was  there  at  any  time  an  arrangement 
of  sprocket  wheels  and  chains  used  on  the  engine? 

A.  Xot  that  I  know  of. 

x-Q.  109.  Was  there  any  tooth  or  spur  gearing 
used  on  the  engine? 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Worm  and  spur  gear  were  placed  on 
this  locomotive,  according  to  the  plans  mentioned 
and  the  experiments  made  operating  the  locomotive 
on  the  track  at  .Menlo  Park. 
x-Q.  lie.  When  was  that  done! 

A.  During  the  fall  of  1SS0. 
x-Q.  111.  Then  the  engine  has  been  altered  since 
the  time  it  was  used  in  May,  1S80! 

A.  Yes:  the  belt  arrangement  was  taken  off  and 
a  gear  arrangement,  to  be  tested,  put  on  the  ma¬ 
chine,  and  the  gear  arrangement  taken  olf  again,  to 
be  replaced  by  the  first  belt  arrangement, 
x-Q.  112.  This  refers  to  the  gearing  apparatus  be¬ 
tween  your  dynamo  and  the  driving  wheels  of  the 
locomotive,  does  it  not. 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  113.  What  was  the  reason  why  the  gearing 
arrangement  between  the  dynamo  and  the  driving 
wheels  was  thus  altered? 

A.  The  friction  clutch  which,  for  want  of  room, 
was  necessitated  to  be  of  small  size,  worked  not  to 
entire  satisfaction  at  the  first  test.  The  perfecting 
of  the  proper  working  of  the  clutch  was  commenced, 
but  not  completed  to  my  knowledge. 

x-Q.  114,  What  is  the  gearing  arrangement  now 
upon  the  locomotive! 

A.  The  belt  arrangement. 

x-Q.  115.  When  was  that  replaced? 

A.  I  cannot  tell,  having  been  away  from  Menlo 
Park  since  -March,  1SS1,  and  only  inspected  yester¬ 
day  the  locomotive  at  Menlo  Park. 

x-Q.  110.  The  tooth  and  spur  gearing  would  ap¬ 
pear,  therefore,  to  have  been  used  on  the  engine  be¬ 
tween  the  fall  of  1SS0  and  March.  1881,  at  least, 
would  they  not? 

A.  I  have  been  present  at  the  test  of  this  gearing 
in  the  fall,  but  have  not  seen  this  in  operation  but 
twice  or  three  times  for  testing  this  gearing,  since 
commencing  repairs  on  the  clutch.  I  have  not  seen 
this  gear  in  operation,  and  cannot  state  what  oc¬ 
curred  in  my  absence  from  Menlo  Park. 

Julius  I-.  Hornig. 

C9  x-Q.  117.  Which  of  these  gearing  ana 
was  in  use  on  that  engine  in  March,  1SS1, 

A.  I  cannot  tell. 

x-Q.  1  IS.  You  have  no  means  of  knowing  when 

the  belting  arrangement  was  replaced,  then,  have 

x  Q.  110.  You  ilo  know  that  it  has  been  replaced? 
‘  A.  1  do. 

70  x-Q.  120.  Do  you  know  why  i 

A.  I  do  not. 

x-Q.  121.  Do  you  know  whether  the  friction 
clutch,  of  which  you  have  spoken,  was  at  any  time 
broken  before  the  belted  gearing  was  substituted  ? 

A.  I  do  not  think  it  was  broken. 

x-Q.  122.  Do  you  know  whether  this  spur  gear¬ 
ing  broke  while  it  was  on  the  engine  ? 

A.  I  don’t  know  of  anything  breaking. 

x-Q.  123.  You  never  heard  in  any  way  whether 

71  this  toothed  spur  gearing  broke  or  not,  while  it  was 
used  on  the  engine  ? 

A.  I  never  did.  This  spur  gearing  is  at  Menlo 
Park,  according  to  yesterday's  inspection,  sound 
and  in  good  order,  the  same  as  I  noticed  when  the 
clutch  was  taken  out  for  adjustment. 
Cross-examination  by  Chas.  S.  Whitman,  C'oux- 
sel  for  Siemens  : 

x-Q.  124.  In  whose  employ  wore  you  before  vou 
"•ere  employed  by  Mr.  Edison  ? 

A.  In  that  of  Mr.  Krom,  mining  engineer,  Liberty 
street,  New  York. 

x-Q.  123.  How  long  were  you  in  Mr.  Krom’s  em¬ 
ploy  ? 

A.  Probably  two  months. 

x-Q.  126  Was  Mr.  Krom  simply  a  mining  en- 
-gmeer,  or  did  he  combine  other  branches  of  engi¬ 
neering  with  his  business  ? 

A.  To  my  knowledge  his  business  was  construct- 

x-Q.  127.  I  understood  you  to  state,  that  you 
were  a  mechanical  engineer.  You  are  also  an  elec¬ 
trical  engineer,  are  you  not  ? 

A.  I  am  a  mechanical  engineer,  but  not  an  elec¬ 
trical  engineer,  having  paid  no  attention  to  that 
branch  of  engineering  before  being  employed  by- 
Mr.  Edison. 

x-Q.  12S.  Had  you  had  no  experience  whatever 
ill  electrical  constructions  or  electrical  matters,  be¬ 
fore  you  entered  Mr.  Edison’s  employ  ? 

A.  None  whatever  since  leaving  the  polytechnic 
school,  about  twenty-five  years  ago. 

x-Q.  120.  To  what  polytechnic  school  do  you  al- 

A.  The  polytechnic  school  of  Dresden,  Saxony. 

x-Q.  130.  Is  not  the  course  of  instruction  in  elec¬ 
trical  science  very  thorough  at  that  institution  ? 

A.  Not  at  the  time  when  I  studied  there;  and  I 
attended  particularly  to  the  courses  of  mechanical 

x-Q.  131.  Please  state,  as  nearly  as  you  can,  what, 
if  any,  electrical  studies  you  pursued  at  that  insti¬ 
tution  ? 

A.  The  primary  instruction  was  experiments  by 
the  professor  in  galvanic  actions  and  frictional  elec¬ 

x-Q.  132.  You  obtained  then  at  that  time  a  gene¬ 
ral  knowledge  of  electrical  currents  and  their  action, 
did  you  not  ? 

A.  Yes,  in  reference  to  galvanic  batteries. 

x-Q.  133.  When  was  your  attention  next  called  to 
electrical  matters  after  leaving  the  polytechnic 
school  ? 

A.  I  have  paid  no  special  attention  to  electrical 
mattere,  only  the  electric  light,  becoming  prominent 
lately,  called  my  attention  to  study  up  the  elec¬ 
tric  engineering. 

x-Q.  134.  State  as  nearly  as  you  can  when  you 
first  commenced  to  study  up  electrical  engineering  ? 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

A.  Only  after  I  commenced  to  work  for  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son  at  Menlo  Park. 

x-Q.  135.  You  commenced  the  study  then  of  elec¬ 
trical  engineering  after  you  were  first  employed  by 
Mr.  Edison,  and  before  you  received  instructions 
from  him  concerning  the  electric  railway,  did  you 
not  ? 

A.  As  far  as  observation  at  the  laboratory,  and 
work  on  electrical  apparatus  at  the  shops  could  in¬ 
form  me  at  leisure  time. 

By  consent,  the  taking  of  further  testimony  was 
postponed  to  Thursday,  November  17th,  I  SSI,  at  ten 
o'clock  A.  M.,  at  same  place. 

AY  m.  H.  Mkadowckokt, 

Notary  Public, 

New  York  County. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  taking  of  testimony 
was  continued  on  Thursday,  November  17th,  lsSl 
at  same  place,  same  counsel  being  present  ’ 

x-Q.  130.  How  long  have  you  been  in  this  coun- 
try » 

A.  Since  1851. 

e^o,io'^rkana  w*'h0  tlK!fiwnan 

A.  \  es,  it  is  my  native  language. 

A^In 'l 8" g^lleU  Wero  -vou  in  Europe  last  ? 

x-Q  139.  When  and  where  did  you  first  become 
acquainted  with  Mr.  Edison  i 

A.  January  4th,  1SS0,  at  Menlo  Park. 

x-Q  140.  How  were  you  employed  at  Menlo  Park 
fiorn  the  tune  January  4th,  up  to  the  time  that  vou 
received  instructions  concerning  the  electric  rail- 

A  I  was  making  general  plans  to  place  dynamo 

Julius  L.  Honiig. 

ferent  proposed  classes  of  boilers  and  steam  engines  si 
required  various  plans  of  arranging  and  driving 
the  dynamo  machine;. 

x-Q.  14!.  Have  you  any  way  of  fixing  the  date 
on  which  Mr.  Edison  first  spoke  to  you  concerning 
electric  railway  ? 

A.  From  records  in  this  office  I  find  the  rails 
were  ordered  April  2,  1880,  and  about  four  days 
previous  the  first  mention  of  electric  railroad  by 
Mr.  Edison  was  made. 

x-Q.  142.  Mr.  Edison  then  first  mentioned  an  82 
electric  railway  to  you  on  the  29th  day  of  March, 
1SS0,  did  he  ? 

A.  I  should  think  it  was  about  the  29th. 

x-Q.  143.  As  a  mechanical  engineer  I  suppose 
that  you  are  in  the  habit  of  reading  periodicals  and 
publications  having  reference  to  your  occupation, 
are  you  not? 

A.  I  do,  and  have  done  so. 

x-Q.  144.  Your  acquaintance  with  the  German 
language,  I  presume,  gives  you  the  advantage  of  S3 
being  able  to  make  yourself  acquainted  with  tire 
latest  improvements  in  mechanical  science  taking 
place  in  German  speaking  countries,  does  it  not! 

A.  It  does. 

x-Q.  145.  Are  you  a  regular  subscriber  for  any 
ptiodicals  having  reference  to  your  profession, 
printed  in  the  German  languagul 

A.  I  am  not. 

x-Q.  140.  Do  you  have  access  to  any  such  publi¬ 
cations  or  periodicals?  54 

A.  I  have  access  to  them,  but  do  not  make  use 
of  it. 

x-Q.  147.  Can  you  give  the  names  of  the  persons 
who  were  employed  with  you  at  Menlo  Park  in  the 
laying  down  of  the  rails  for  Mr.  Edison’s  railway? 

A.  One  carpenter,  H.  A.  Campbell.  That  is  the 
onlj-  name  I  can  remember  of  the  carpenters  and 
laborers  working  on  the  track. 

x-Q.  14S.  Do  you  know  whether  any  of  the  per¬ 
sons  who  assisted  you  in  laying  the  rails  at  Menlo 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

S5  Park  were  employed  in  laying  the  rails  for  the 
Siemens  Electric  Railway  which  were  laid  in  Berlin 
in  the  spring  and  summer  of  1*77; 

A.  It  seems  impossible  from  the  class  of  men  em¬ 

x-Q.  149.  In  your  answer  to  question  9,  you  say  the 
locomotive  is  composed  of  a  dynamo  machine  sup¬ 
ported  by  an  iron  frame  and  earned  on  two  axles 
with  isolated  wheels,  on  light  rails.  What  do  you 
mean  by  a  dymano  machine! 

SO  A. .  I  mean  the  dynamo  machine  as  ojieratcd 
and  in  service  at  Menlo  Park  by  Mr.  Edison. 

x-Q.  150.  You  say  in  answer  to  the  same  interrog¬ 
atory,  “the  front  or  driving  wheels  were  provided 
with  a  friction  wheel  fastened  to  their  axle,  and 
received  motion  from  tho  armature  shaft,  the  latter 
being  provided  also  with  a  friction  wheel.”  Please 
descnlie  the  construction  of  the  armature  shaft,  to 
which  you  have  alluded? 

A.  Ihe  armature  shaft  resting  in  bearings  which 
87  were  fastened  to  the  frame  of  the  engine  admitted 
the  placing  of  the  friction  wheel  in  place  of  tho 
pulley  which  was  used  on  such  dynamo  machine 
employed  for  producing  current  for 

x-Q.  i51.  How  was  the  armature  wound? 

A.  I  am  not  informed  how  it  was  wound 

"?t  “»  fw  youreeif  how  ft 

x-Q  153.  What  appearance  had  those  armatures? 

A.  The  armature  proper  appeared  to  be  a  cylinder 
sTdeTf  th  r8^461?  "'h'es  which  connected  one 
ed  of  Inti  ?r  W1‘h  a  sn,alIw  cylinder  compos- 

“01tte!.?r  bars  ‘ying  lengthwise. 

W-  Did  the  cylinder  appear  to  be  entirely 
covered  with  insulated  wire?  ^ 

eadi  otwln6,ted  wires  lay  in  contact  with 
each  other  on  the  penphery  of  the  cylinder. 

-x-Q.  lo4.  Can  you  describe  the  construction  of 

Julius  L.  Hornig.  23 

the  field  magnets  of  the  dynamo  electric  machine 
of  which  you  have  testified! 

A.  The  magnet  had  two  cores  which  were  wound 
with  insulated  wire.  These  cores  were  of  wrought 
iron,  their  ends  faced,  for  connecting  them  with  a 
faced  iron  cross-bar  anil  also  with  two  cast  iron 
field  pieces.  These  field  pieces  were  bored  out  and 
admitted  the  armature  to  revolve  therein. 

x-Q.  155.  Do  you  mean  that  the  lield  pieces  were 
bored  out  ill  such  a  way  as  to  leave  a  cylindrical 
space  within  which  the  cylindrical  armature  wound  pf, 
with  insulated  wire,  revolved! 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  150.  Were  the  portions  of  the  magnets  in¬ 
closing  this  cylindrical  space  and  field  of  force,  cur¬ 
vilinear  or  straight? 

A.  Approximalety  corresponding  with  thecvlinder. 

x-Q.  157.  You  mean,  do  you.  that  thecvlinder  re¬ 
volved  between  curvilinear  bars! 

A.  I  could  not  call  the  shape  of  these  castings 
bar  shaped.  They  represented  rather,  cubes.  91 

x-Q.  15S.  Were  the  cubes  concerning  which  you 
have  testified,  curvilinear  or  straight ! 

A.  They  were  curvilinear,  partly  surrounding  the 

x-Q.  159.  You  say  in  answer  to  question  U>,  “tho 
brush  fastened  to  the  platform  of  the  locomotive 
was  insulated  and  connected  by  wire  to  the  hand 
brake  or  revereing  contact  apparatus,  wires  would 
connect  with  the  field  and  armature  of  the  dynamo 
machine,  and  produce  motion.”  Please  explain  how  90 
the  current  flowed  from  tho  rail  to  the  field  and 
armatures  of  which  you  have  testified! 

A.  The  current  from  the  rail  would  pass  through 
the  tire  of  the  driving  wheel  by  its  metallic  spider 
with  a  small  hub  in  contact  with  a  brush,  by  wires 
leading  from  this  brush  to  the  reversing  apparatus, 
and  from  the  reversing  apparatus  by  wires  to  the 
magnet  and  to  the  brushes  in  contact  with  the  com¬ 
mutator  of  the  armature. 

93  x-Q.  ICO.  Please  describe  (lie  level sirg  appai atus 
of  which  you  speak? 

A.  A  hand  lever  provided  with  contact  points  and 
free  between  contact  points  of  two  hell  cranks  could 
be  moved  to  one  or  the  other  side  making  contact 
with  one  or  the  other  hell  crank  and  by  their  wire 
connections  to  change  the  operation. 

x-Q,  101.  What  became  of  the  drawings  of  the 
locomotive  which  you  made  for  Mr.  Edison? 

A.  They  probably  are  in  my  possession  in  this 

94  office. 

x-Q.  1<!2.  Have  you  any  way  of  fixing  the  date 
when  the  first  drawing  was  made? 

A.  The  first  drawings  are  not  dated,  hut  later  dur- 
ing  the  progress  dates  appear  on  the  drawings. 

x-Q.  103.  In  preparing  these  drawings  were  you 
assisted  by  any  person  or  persons  who  saw  the  elec¬ 
tric  railway  of  Siemens  in  operation  in  Berlin  in  the 
spring  of  1879? 

A.  I  was  not  assisted  in  making  drawings  by  any 

»5  one,  and  knew  of  no  one  connected  with  Siemens. 

x-Q.  104.  Did  you  meet  any  one  when  at  Menlo 
Park  who  had  seen  the  electric  railway  of  Sie¬ 

A.  I  have  not,  to  my  knowledge. 

x-Q.  105.  When  did  you  first  hear  of  the  Siemens’ 
electric  railway! 

A.  I  must  have  seen  an  engraving  or  read  of  an 
exhibition  by  Mr.  Siemens  of  an  electric  railroad 

96  hef0™  1  t0  Menl°  Park,  but  took  no  notice  of 
any  details  then. 

uVUS  itinthe  sIJI  ing  of  1879  when  the 
Siemens  railway  was  on  public  exhibition  at  the 
Ber  in  exposition  that  you  saw  the  engraving  or 
read  of  an  exhibit?  b  b 

that  “wSnta'*b“n  >«'*»■»  t. 

107-  Are  you  in  the  habit  of  meeting  many 
6“  wh0  co™  over  from  the  old  country?  * 

x-Q.  10S.  Do  you  remember  to  have  metany  Ger- 

Julius  L.  Hornig.  25 

man  or  other  foreigner  or  citizen  of  the  United  97 
States  who  mentioned  the  fact  of  having  seen  Sie¬ 
mens' electrical  railway  in  o|teintion  at  Berlin,  Dus- 
seldorf  or  Bnissels? 

A.  I  do  not  remember. 

x-Q.  1G9.  In  what  publication  was  the  engraving 
of  the  railway  which  you  say  you  have  seen? 

A.  I  do  not  remember.  The  first  notice  I  remem¬ 
ber  of  having  taken  of  Siemens'  railroad  was  after 
Edison's  railroad  was  in  operation. 

Counsel  for  Siemens  objects  to  the  answer  9S 
as  irresponsive,  except  the  words:  “I  don't  re¬ 

x-Q.  170.  How  was  the  commutator  of  the  dyna¬ 
mo  electric  machine,  concerning  which  you  have 
testified  as  being  used  on  the  locomotive,  connected 
with  the  armature  wires  and  wires  wound  around 
the  cores  of  the  field  magnets? 

A.  The  connection  between  the  commutator  bars 
and  the  wires  around  the  armature  was  made  by  99 
soldering  the  bar  to  a  bundle  of  wire.  Other  wire 
connections  between  magnets  and  apparatus  were  di¬ 
rected,  and  I  have  110  knowledge  to  describe  them. 

x-Q.  171.  Was  the  electric  current  induced  in  the 
coils  of  the  armature  passed  through  the  coils  of  the 
field  magnets  in  the  dynamo  machine  of  which  you 
have  testified? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  the  connections. 
x-Q.  172.  How  many  dynamo  machines  did  you 
see  at  Menlo  Park?  100 

A.  About  seventeen. 

x-Q.  173.  Were  they  all  similar  in  construction? 

A.  Some  were  of  different  size.  Some  small  ones 
had  their  armature  axle  in  a  different  position  to  the 

x-Q.  174.  You  speak  of  these  dynamo  machines 
as  being  Edison’s  machines.  Do  you  mean  that  he 
invented  them,  or  that  he  owned  them? 

A.  It  is  understood  that  Mr.  Edison  constructed 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

101  these  machines  with  devices  of  his  own,  and  of  pro¬ 
portions  to  make  it  a  specific  machine. 

x-Q.  17 5.  How  did  you  receive  your  pay  from  Mr. 

A.  Regularly,  in  money. 

x-Q.  17(1.  Are  you,  or  liave  you  heen,  a  holder  of 
any  stock  in  any  company  based  upon  Mr.  Edison's 

A.  I  have  no  stock  of  any  kind  of  Mr.  Edison’s 
stocks.  I  have  bought  once  and  held  some  stock  in 

102  one  of  Edison’s  mining  enterprises. 

x-Q.  177.  About  for  how  long  a  time  was  the  lo¬ 
comotive,  concerning  which  you  have  testified,  in 
continuous  operation? 

A.  the  longest  time  probably  thirty  minutes  of 
continual  running  on  the  track. 

x-Q.  178.  Were  they  obliged  to  stop  at  the  end  of 
thirty  inmutes  because  the  armature  became  heated’ 

A.  Not  that  I  am  aware  of.  ami  I  have  heard  of 

..„  no  t0,nPhunt  of  heating  of  the  armature  while  the 

103  railroad  was  in  operation. 

x-Q.  li'J.  Was  a  third  mil  used  in  any  of  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son’s  experiments  at  Menlo  Park  ? 

A.  Not  during  my  presence  and  experiments. 

"•  <»*»*. 

lie-d.  Q.  ISO.  Have  you  ever  professed,  or  do  vou 
now  jprofess,  to  be  anything  but  a  mechanical  engi- 

1W  engineer!111  **  a  mechanical 

Ke-d  Q.  isi.  Wlien  you  testified,  in  the  cross-ex- 
^\a^taWct!0nclutel»*  i“  -"oTonnec.  * 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

Heal.  Q  183.  Do  you  know  the  object  or  purpost 
of  Mr.  Edison  in  experimenting  with  this  cog-geai 
instead  of  the  pulley  belt-gear,  in  his  locomotive? 

tion  as  incompetent. 

A.  Mr.  Edison's  desiie  to  produce  a  very  slow  mo¬ 
tion  of  the  locomotive  called  out  the  propriety  of 
employing  some  gearing  device.  ’’ 

lie  d.  Q.  184.  Why  did  he  want  a  slow  motion? 

Same  objection. 

A.  He  spoke  of  hauling  heavy  loads  on  steep  in¬ 
clines,  and  directed  me  to  extend  the  track  into  a 

Re-d.  Q.  18f>.  The  purpose,  then,  was  to  get  greater 
strength  of  traction,  with  less  speed,  was  it? 

Same  objection,  and  also  as  leading.  1(J_ 

A.  With  slower  speed  heavy  loads  can  be  hauled 
with  the  same  expenditure  of  power. 

Re  d.  Q.  ISO.  What  was  the  relative  size  of  the 
cog  gears,  engaging  with  each  other,  when  low 
speed  was  desired,  and  when  high  speed  was  de¬ 

A.  In  ouo  instance  the  smaller  gear  drives  a 
larger,  and  in  the  other  a  larger  gear  drives  a 
smaller  gear. 

Re-d.  Q.  187.  Do  you  know  what  rate  of  speed  io$ 
that  engine  developed  at  the  slow  rate  of  gearing, 
and  what  at  the  high  rate  of  gearing? 

A.  At  the  slow  rate,  by  this  gearing,  the  speed 
was  designed  to  be,  and  in  service  was,  apparently, 
the  same — that  is,  a  speed  of  four  miles  per  hour. 

The  fast  speed  by-  this  gear  was  about  twelve  miles 
per  hour,  as  far  as  I  can  remember. 

Re-d.  Q.  188.  Please  answer  with  regard  to  the 
pulley-belt  arrangement? 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

A.  The  speed  of  the  belt  arrangement  was  an  av¬ 
erage  speed  of  twenty  miles  per  hour. 

Re-d.  Q.  ISO.  What  do  you  mean  by  your  answer 
to  cross-question -ITT  where  you  say  the  longest  time 
the  locomotive  was  in  continuous  operation  was 
probably  thirty  minutes? 

A.  The  length  of  the  track  permitted  the  belt  lo¬ 
comotive  to  make  the  outward  trip  in  about  thirty 
minutes.  For  reversing  for  the  return  trip  a  stop¬ 
page  of  some  duration  limits  this  mentioned  dura¬ 

Red.  Q.  190.  Do  you  mean  to  he  understood  that 
the  engine  was  half  an  hour  running  half  a  mile  ? 

A.  I  understood  the  longest  duration  on  this  trip 
and  know  that  distance  of  half  a  mile  track  has 
been  made  at  a  rate  of  over  twenty— some  observers 
claiming  thirty— miles  an  hour. 

Rk-choss-exajii.vatiox  by  Mb.  Whithidge  : 

Re-x-Q.  191.  After  the  engine  had  been  used  to 
make  a  trip,  how  long  was  it  before  it  was  again 
set  in  motion  or  operation. 

A.  Usually  at  once.  The  trips  were  repeated. 

Re.  x-Q.  192.  How  many  trips  were  made  in  im¬ 
mediate  succession  to  each  other  in  this  way,  and 
how  long  a  time  was  occupied  in  making  the  whole 
of  the  trips  together  i 

A.  Three  and  four  trips  at  a  time  to  my  observa¬ 
tion  ;  and  the  whole  operation  lasted  for  some  hours 
when  I  had  occasion  to  observe  the  track. 

Julius  L.  Hornig. 

John  Kruesi. 

Johx  Kkukni,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf  of  Mr.  113 
Hdison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  follows  in  an¬ 
swer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  bv  George  W 
Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison: 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name.  age.  residence  and 

A.  John  Kruesi,  age  3S;  residence,  49  Putnam 
avenue,  Brooklyn;  occupation,  Treasurer  of  the 
Electric  Tube  Company.  • 

.9'r 2',  "Lore  you  in  the  employ  of  Mr.  T.  A.  Edison 
at  Menlo  Park  during  the  yearn  1S7S.  1S70  and  1SS0;  m 
ami  if  so,  in  what  capacity? 

A.  I  was  engaged  during  this  time  by  Mr.  Edison 
as  foreman  of  the  mechanical  department. 

Q.  3.  Do  you  know  of  Mr.  Edison’s  making  a 
trip  out  West  in  1S7S;  if  so,  during  what  part  of 
tlie  year  was  it? 

A.- 1  think  lie  started  the  first  part  of  July  and 
returned  in  August. 

Q.  4.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  during  that 
trip  of  Mr.  Edison’s  out  West  his  attention  was  115 
called  to  the  subject  of  electrical  railways,  and  if 
so,  what  called  his  attention  to  that  subject? 

Question  objected  to  by  counsel  for  Field 
and  Siemens  as  attempting  to  introduce  hear¬ 
say  evidence. 

A.  As  Mr.  Edison  related  afterwards  when  we 
spoke  of  electric  railroading,  he  mentioned  that 
during  his  trip  out  West  he  conceived  that  an  elec¬ 
tric  railroad  would  pay  in  wheat-growing  States,  as  1If 
Iowa.  He  was  informed  that  in  Iowa  they  cart 
wheat  200  miles  on  wagons.  The  country  was  per¬ 
fectly  flat,  and  if  such  a  railroad  was  slightly  ele¬ 
vated  it  would  require  very  little  attention. 

Q.  5.  Did  he  at  any  time  after  that,  and  if  so, 
when,  begin  to  make  sketches  and  plans  and  esti¬ 
mates  for  an  electric  railway? 

A.  He  made  sketches,  estimates  and  plans  the 
last  part  of  April  and  first  part  of  May,  1879. 

Q.  6.  Have  you  sketches  made  by  him  or  under 

John  Kruesi. 

his  direction  about  that  time  connected  with  elec¬ 
tric  railways;  if  so,  produce  them; 

All  sketches  are  objected  to  by  counsel  for 
Siemens  and  Field  not  shown  to  he  made  by 
this  witness. 

A.  I  have,  and  produce  the  same. 

Q.  7.  Upon  this  sketch  which  I  now  hand  you  is 
written  “May  18th,  1879,  E.  tramway.  J.  K.”  In 
whose  handwriting  is  that? 

A.  It  is  my  handwriting. 

Q.  8.  What  does  that  “J.  K.”  stand  for? 

A.  For  my  name.  John  Kruesi. 

Q.  0.  When  was  that  sketch  made? 

A.  On  or  previous  to  the  date  it  hears— the  18th 
of  May,  1879. 

Q.  10.  Do  you  know  by  whom  it  was  made? 

A.  By  Mr.  Edison. 

Q.  11.  Do  you  recollect  whether  you  saw  him 
make  it  or  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  saw  him  making  it. 

Q.  12.  In  whose  handwriting  is  the  writing  upon 
it,  other  than  that  to  which  I  have  before  called 
your  attention? 

A.  It  is  in  Mr.  Edison’s  handwriting. 

Sketch  is  put  in  testimony  and  marked 
Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  1.” 

Q.  13.  I  call  your  attention  to  another  sketch  and 
ask  you  to  read  what  is  written  upon  it? 
j  J'^y  18th,  ’78>  ®*ec-  tramway,  IS  in  of  grd., 

Q.  14.  In  whose  handwriting  is  that; 

A.  In  my  own  handwriting. 

Q.  15.  What  is  the  “J.  K.”  for? 

A.  It  stands  for  John  Kruesi. 

Q.  16.  Do  you  know  when  that  sketch  was  made? 

John  Kr 

at  t  1  thi"k  'le  n’a,le  “  f°r  me  wlliIe  1  "’as  looking  121 

JSh. !?  I™1  in  evidence  and  marked  “Edi¬ 
son  s  Exhibit  iso.  2.” 

Q.  19  Please  examine  the  sketch  I  now  show -von 

and  state  what  is  written  at  the  top  of  the  sketch 
"f  '“"'  ,ose  handwriting,  if  you  know? 

A.  Elc.  tramway.  May  is,  ’70  j.  k  ”  Tt 
niy  own  handwriting. 

ll"‘  ,k'ic"  ""*■  “a  *  Ia 

nivn  if11 by  Mr-  Edison>  w  rather  I  recog- 
Hi  Ir;  E(,lsons  sketching,  and  think  it  was 
made  at  the  date  written  upon  it,  or  previous  to  that  ' 

Sketch  referred  to  put  in  evidence  and 
marked  “Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  3.” 

Exhibit  objected  to  by  counsel  for  Siemens 
and  Field  as  not  being  properly  identified 
as  having  been  made  by  Mr.  Edison  or  under  123 
Ins  direction. 

..„Q- 2I-  D°y°"  ku°w  that  this  sketch  you  have  tes- 
tided  r '  out,  being  Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  3, 'was  made 
»^'/^SOn  or  under  his  direction? 

A.  1  es,  sir. 

Q.  22  Please  examine  the  sketch  I  now  show 
the  Mme?ea<1  "'hat  written  “1)0n  the  upper  part  of 

A.  “May  18tb,  ’79,  10  miles  pr  hour.  elc.  faun- 
way.”  224 

Q.  23.  In  whose  handwriting  is  this? 

A.  It  is  my  handwriting. 

Q.  24.  When  was  this  sketch  made? 

A.  On  or  previous  to  May  IS,  1S79? 

Q.  25.  Who  made  the  sketch,  if  you  know? 

A  I  recognize  it  as  Mr.  Edison’s  sketching  and 
writing  on  the  sketch. 

Q.  20.  What  words  on  the  sketch  are  in  Mr  Edi- 
sons  handwriting? 

John  Kmesi. 

i  A.  “Same  liens.’’ 

Sketch  referred  to  put  in  evidence  and 
marked  “Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  4.” 

Exhibit  objected  to  by  counsol  for  Field  and 
Siemens  sis  not  identified  as  bavin;;  any  con¬ 
nection  with  Mr.  Edison,  or  as  being  made  by 
him,  or  as  relating  to  the  subject  matter  in 

Q.  27.  Pleiise  examine  the  sketch  I  now  show 
.  you,  and  read  what  is  written  on  the  upper  part  of 
the  same. 

A.  “May  18th,  ’7b,  E.  tramway,  J.  K.” 

Q.  28.  In  whose  handwriting  is  this. 

A.  In  my  own  handwriting. 

Q.  29.  When  was  that  sketch  made,  and  bv  whom, 
if  you  know! 

A.  It  was  made  on  or  before  May  IS,  1S79,  by 
Mr.  Edison. 

Sketch  put  in  evidence  and  marked  “Edi¬ 
son’s  Exhibit  No.  5.” 

Same  objection  as  above. 

Q.  30.  Please  examine  the  sketch  I  now  show 
you;  state  what  is  written  upon  the  upper  part  of 
the.  same? 

A.  “El.  tramway,  May  2 1st,  1S79,  J.  K.” 

Q.  31.  In  whose  handwriting  is  this? 

A.  In  my  handwriting. 

Q.  32.  When  was  the  sketch  made  and  by  whom, 
if  you  know? 

A.  On  or  before  May  21st,  1879,  by  Mr.  Edison. 
Sketch  put  in  evidence,  marked  “  Edison’s 
Exhibit  No.  0.” 

Same  objection. 

Q.  33.  Please  examine  the  sketch  I  now  show 
you,  and  state  what  is  written  on  the  upper  part  of 
the  same?  1 

A.  “E.T.  W.,J.  K.” 

Q.  34.  I  whose  handwriting? 

A.  In  my  handwriting. 

John  Kruesi.  33 

Q.  35.  What  is  the  “  E.  T.  W.”  intended  to  stand 

A.  It  was  intended  for  “Electric  Tramway.” 

Q.  30.  When  was  this  sketch  made,  and  by  whom, 
so  far  as  you  know? 

A.  It  was  made  as  far  as  I  knew  by  Mr.  Edison 
the  same  day  as  the  sketch  next  previous,  Exhibit 
No.  0. 

Q.  37.  Is  there  any  other  writing  on  this  sketch 
than  that  you  have  stated,  and  if  so,  whose  hand¬ 

A.^  There  is  more  which  I  recognize  as  Mr.  Edi- 

Sketeh  put  in  evidence  and  marked  “Edi¬ 
son’s  Exhibit  No.  7." 

Objected  to  on  same  ground  as  before. 

Q.  3$.  Please  re-examine  sketch  “Edison’s  Ex¬ 
hibit  No.  1,”  and  explain  what  is  illustrated  and  de¬ 
scribed  theieon,  putting  letters  of  reference  to  the 
parts  as  you  describe  them?  131 

Question  objected  by  counsel  fbr  Siemens 
and  Field,  as  incompetent,  as  an  attempt  to 
explain  Mr.  Edison’s  sketches,  and  to  define 
his  invention  or  conception  by  secondary 

Q.  39.  Before  you  answer  that  question  I  will  ask 
another,  namely,  did  Mr.  Edison  explain  these 
sketches  to  you,  at  or  about  the  time  written  upon 

A.  Yes,  sir;  ho  did.  132 

Q.  40.  Will  you  now  have  the  kindness  to  an¬ 
swer  Question  3S? 

Objection  repeated. 

A.  As  far  as  I  remember  now,  A  is  a  dynamo 
machine  ran  by  a  belt  from  a  shaft  with  fast  and 
loose  pulley;  c  represents  the  belt  shifter.  B  is  a 
dynamo  machine;  D  a  circuit  breaker. 

Q.  41.  Does  the  sketch  show  any  connection  be¬ 
tween  the  machines  A  and  B? 


3  A.  There  is  a  sketch  here  which  I  think  is  in¬ 
tended  for  that. 

Q.  42.  What  do  yon  understand  hy  the  part  of 
the  sketch  upon  which  is  written  “shaft  ”? 

A.  I  understand  that  it  is  intended  to  show  the 
belt  coining  from  the  shaft  which  gives  the  arma- 
ture  of  the  dynamo  machine,. B,  motion. 

Q.  43.  What  do  you  undersand  the  lower  portion 

tioiisV*  SkCtCh  t0  bL'’  markotl  D’  with  its  connec- 

A  I  understand  it  to  he  a  device  for  reducing  the 
spark  m  breaking  tlic  current. 

Q.  44.  Do  you  remember  for  what  purpose  this 
portion  marked  D  was  to  bo  applied? 

A.  No. 

Counsel  for  Field  and  Siemens  formally  re¬ 
quest  counsel  for  Edison  to  slate  the  purpose 
"  exp,anations  bT  the  witness 

of  Exhibit  No.  1  are  introduced  into  the 

Counsel  for  Edison  answers  that  it  is  by 
way  of  explanation  and  for  other  purposes. 

Counsel  for  Field  gives  notice  of  motion  to 
strikeout  the  same,  in  so  far  as  it  is  to  bo 
used  as  evidence  of  the  invention  of  Mr  Edi- 
son  of  the  subject  matter  in  interference,  or  of 
JJT;  *  1,ntention  35  to  "’hat  the  drawing 
ras  intended  to  represent,  on  the  ground  that 

teslonr  7’ 

Q.  45.  Please  re-examine  “Edison’s  Exhibit  No 

antl  ftate  what  the  same  illustrates,  designating 
the  particular  parts  by  fatten,  if  necessary  ? 
t>  t;fKU1:e  A  represents  an  electric  motor.  Figure 
fentfn  ntS  a  Cf-' attached  to  the  motor.  Crepre- 

amt  Etlf'Se  ,0n°ftl'est,e;W0rk:  Dtha  Plan  of 
same,  E  the  governor.  1 

/cai  "rthi”6*” »» 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

John  Kruqsi. 

thS'  y°U  filU!  t0  «Pn«ent  mils  in  1a7 

that  sketch,  upon  which  the  wheels  run  ?  137 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

ft  Q'  w  ,What  <loes  the  fiSllru  >«  the  lower  part  of 
the  sketch  n-epesent  ?  1 

A.  As  far  as  I  can  see,  an  iron  rail. 

Q.  JO.  A  railroad  rail  ? 

A.  No;  a  strap  rail  for  the  wheels  to  run  on. 

Counsel  for  Field  and  Siemens  make  the 
same  objection,  and  give  notice  of  the  same 
motion  with  reference  to  the  testimony  about  138 
Exhibit  2,  as  to  that  regarding  No.  1. 

Q.  30.  Please  examine  again  Edison’s  Exhibit  No 
3.  and  explain  what  is  illustrated  there  ? 

A.  I  find  illustrated  a  trestle-work,  similar  to  that 
shown  m  the  Exhibit  marked  No.  C,  which  is  put 
together  in  sections.  The  figure  below  represents  a 
tiestle  of  a  different  construction. 

Q.  31.  What  is  the  trestle-work  for ! 

A.  As  far  as  I  remember,  it  was  intended  for  elec- 
height"  ’  rfeVated  flom  tlle  Sreund  a  certain  139 
Q.  o2.  Do  you  find  railroad  tracks  shown  on  the 

A.  There  are  strap  rails  shown. 

Q.  33.  Secured  on  longitudinal  timbers  ? 

A.  Yes. 

Same  objection  to  t.  t  o  y  eBa  1  <  Ex¬ 
hibit  No.  3,  as  to  No.  2. 

Q.  34.  Please  examine  Edison’s  Exhibit  No  4  140 

and  explain  what  is  illustrated  in  that  sketch  ?  ’  ’ 

A.  I  think  it  represents  a  current  reverser  to  run 
the  trams  on  the  road  forward  or  backward  from 
the  station. 

Q.  55.  What  do  you  understand  the  square  por¬ 
tions  inserted  between  lines  in  multiple  arc  fashion 

A.  I  understand  they  represent  dynamo  machines. 

Q.  50.  What  do  you  understand  the  heavier  par- 

John  Kruesi. 

allel  lines  with  which  they  are  connected  to  repre¬ 

A.  I  understand  that  these  are  the  two  poles  con¬ 
nected  to  the  railroad  rails. 

Q.  57.  Please  examine  again  the  sketch  Exhibit 
No.  5  and  explain  what  is  illustrated  in  the  same? 

A.  The  top  figure  represents  one  of  Mr.  Edison’s 

142  dynamo  machines;  the  lower  figure  one  of  his  dy¬ 
namo  machines  provided  with  four  railroad  wheels 
standing  on  a  railway  track. 

Q.  58.  Please  explain,  if  you  can,  the  connections 
which  are  shown  in  the  upper  figure? 

A.  I  see  only  the  brushes  represented,  and  the 
commutator,  and  armature;  also  one  of  the  hearings 
of  the  pulley,  and  the  field  magnet. 

Q.  59.  Do  you  find  anything  else  than  you  have 
described  on  the  lower  figure? 

143  A.  I  see  some  parts  which  represent  the  frame¬ 
work  and  bearings  of  the  axles. 

same  oojection  to  the  testimony  about  Ex¬ 
hibit  5  as  to  that  regarding  Exhibit  4. 

Q.  CO.  Please  examine  again  Edison’s  Exhibit  No 
C;  state  what  you  find  illustrated  there? 

A.  I  find  illustrated  a  station-house  with  a  wind- 
mill,  in  which  dynamo  machines  are  placed,  to 
winch  motion  may  be  given  by  the  wind-mill. 
144  ires  ran  from  the  machines  out  to  the  railroad 
tracks.  On  the  side  track  is  a  locomotive  with  two 
loaded  care  leaving  the  station.  The  tracks  are  on 
trestle  work.  The  lower  sketch  in  the  same  exhibit 

represents  a  section  of  a  trestle  work  supporting  a 

railroad  track.  The  other  figures  on  the  sketch,  I 
think,  are  connected  with  telephones. 

A  tL™  y°U  fi"d  esHmate  uP°n  this  sketch? 

O  lo  £  r  figUl'eS>  “400  P»  mile.” 

w.&  1  f  "hether  or  not  this  sketch  agrees 
with  what  you  know  was  then  Mr.  Edison's  plan 

with  regard  to  an  electric  railway  for  transporting  145 
gram  m  the  west? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  it  was. 

Same  objection  to  explanation  of  Exhibit  0 
as  to  that  of  5. 

-  Qof;  PIoapR  examine  again  Edison’s  Exhibit  No. 
tl  ‘i  .}  "  Imt  yon  u,iderstand  to  be  illustrated 

A.  I  find  illustrated  two  stations  alongside  the 
railroad  track  provided  with  telephones  in  separate 
circuilts  from  the  railway.  146 

Q.  C4.  For  what  purpose? 

A.  For  the  purpose  of  enabling  the  a  stendants  of 
the  stations  to  communicate  with  each  other,  to  run 
trains,  or  to  govern  trains  from  the  stations  without 
having  anybody  on  the  trains. 

Same  objection  to  explanation  of  Exhibit  7 
as  to  that  of  the  previous  exhibits. 

Q.  05.  With  regard  to  these  exhibits,  Nos.  1  to  7 
inclusive,  I  underetand  the  explanations  you  have 
just  been  makingare  based  upon  explanations  made  141 
to  you  by  Mr.  Edison  at  or  about  the  date  of  the 
respective  sketches.  Am  I  correct  in  this? 

Objected  to  by  counsel  for  Siemens  &  Field 
as  an  incompetent  question,  being  leadingand 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  GO.  Did  you,  at  or-  about  the  date  of  these 
sketches,  make  or  cause  to  be  made,  any  models  for 
Mr.  Edison  of  features  shown  in  some  of  these 
sketches?  14g 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  07.  Do  you  know  whether  those  models  are  in 
existence  or  not;  if  so,  where  are  they? 

A.  I  think  they  are  at  Menlo  Park. 

Q.  G8.  Will  you  make  search  for  them, so  that  they 
may  be  put  in  testimony? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  will. 

Q.  69.  I  now  hand  you  a  sketch  and  ask  you  to 
read  wliat  is  written  at  the  top  of  the  same? 

John  Kruesi. 

'•  n.,  £.(IISC 


way,  May  IStli,  1m  a. 

Q.  70.  In  whose  handwriting  is  this? 

A.  In  my  own. 

Q.  71.  By  whom  was  this  sketch  made,  and  at 
what  time? 

A.  It  was  made  by  me,  May  18th,  1S70. 

Q.  72.  Was  it  made  under  the  direction  of  any- 
body,  and  if  so,  who  directed  itf 

A.  Mr.  Edison  directed  it.  ' 

.  Q.  73.  Is  it  simply  a  sketch,  or  a  working  draw- 

A.  It  is  a  working  drawing. 

?•  "T+;  What  <1(,es  thp  left  hand  figure  represent? 
A.  It  represents  a  front  end  view  of  an  electric 
locomotn-e,  and  the  trestle  supporting  the  railroad 

thX  figure?1'"11  ki"d  °f  electro  motor  is  ^ 
151  ,°ne .°?  Ellison’s  dynamo  machines  in  a  hori- 
q a70,OHow"isV y,lthf  t!,0cast  110,1  l)oles  to ‘lie  front, 
motive?  H  t  at  dyl,amo  supported  in  the  loco- 

A.  There  are  two  brackets  bolted  to  one  of  the 
cast  iron  poles,  which  answer  as  the  heirimr*  nf  f]» 
tim^  aXkS  U  hith  is  the  nrmaturo  shaft  at  the  same 
These  two  brackets  support  the  whole  front  nart 

of  the  dynamo  machine  .  1  pa,t 

-  “*« 

A.  The  commutator. 

of  the  figure?3^  IS  Sll0Wn  011  tlle  wSl»t  upper  portion 
n  ‘  ^heJfn  LsPrinK  governor, 
shown  at  th“to  "of  'the^^ref  b‘'aCket  or  arin 

i  Jolm  Kruesi.  39 

j  Jt  1S  tlle  support  and  bearing  for  the  governor  153 

.  'i'  Q-  S1-  What  sort  of  railroad  rails  are  shown  in  this 

'  j  figure? 

j  A.  Strap  rails. 

Q.  S2.  How  secured  in  position? 

[  A.  1  hey  are  screwed  down  on  to  the  longitudinal 


Q.  S3.  And  how  are  these  sleepers  secured  to  the 
trestle  work? 

A.  By  square  headed  bolts  with  nuts,  counter-  154 

Q.  84.  Now  describe  the  figure  to  the  right  on  the 

A.  The  figure  to  the  right  shows  the  electric  loco¬ 
motive,  car,  trestle  and  rails  from  the  side. 

'  Q.  S5.  Is  it  the  same  as  that  shown  in  the  left  hand 

figure  in  front  view? 

?  A.  It  is  the  same,  with  the  car  attached. 

Q.  SO.  How  was  circuit  connection  made  between 
the  locomotive  and  the  electric  conductors?  155 

A.  By  means  of  rollers  or  brushes  shown  to  the 
right  and  left  on  the  left  hand  figure,  fastened  to  the 
brackets  supporting  the  machine.  On  the  right  of 
j  this  figure  is  a  lever  shown,  which  in  connection 

I  w‘th  the  governor,  will  break  or  make  contact  with 

the  copper  rods  which  are  shown  on  the  right  and 
:  •eft,  fastened  to  the  right  and  left  of  the  longitudi¬ 

nal  sleeper. 

Drawing  referred  to  put  in  evidence  and 
marked  “  Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  8.”  13(5 

i  Q-  s"-  1  show  you  a  paper  containing  figures  and 

1  f  rough  sketches  in  pencil,  and  ask  you  when  the 

same  was  made  and  by  whom,  and  for  what  pur¬ 
pose  ? 

A.  It  was  made  about  the  same  time  as  the  sketch 
marked  “  Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  8.”  It  was  made  by 
me  and  is  an  estimate  of  the  cost  of  such  a  railroad 
with  equipments,  per  thousand  feet. 

Q.  SS.  At  whose  request,  if  any  person’s,  was  this 
estimate  made? 

40  John  Krucsi. 

57  A.  It  was  math!  at  iff.  Edison's  request. 

Paper  referral  to  put  in  evidence  and  mark¬ 
ed  “Edison’s  Exhibit  No. 

Q.  81).  Please  examine  tliis  sketch  which  1  now 
hand  you,  anil  read  what  is  written  at  the  top  of 
it?  1 

A.  “Scale  2  inch  to  1  ft.  May  24th,  1ST!*.  J  K 
Electric  Tramway.” 

Q.  00.  By  whom  was  this  sketch  made  and  at 
i8  "’lint  time,  if  you  know? 

't  ^  ^  ":lS  llm^°  me  011  *'1L‘  ‘Inte  marked  upon 

Q.  01.  If  made  hy  or  under  the  direction  of  any 
person,  state  whom? 

A.  Under  the  direction  of  Mr.  Edison. 

Q.  02  Isthis  a  sketcli  or  a  working  drawing. 

A.  It  is  drawn  to  scale,  and  can  ho  used  as  a  work¬ 
ing  drawing. 

Q.  93.  What  does  it  represent? 

9  A.  It  represents  the  front-end  view  of  an  electric 

Sketch  put  in  evidence  and  marked  “  Edi- 
son’s  Exhibit  No.  10.” 

By  consent,  the  taking  of  further  tostimo- 
ny  was  postponed  to  Friday,  November  lSth, 
ISM,  at  10  A.  M.,  at  same  place. 

Wm.  H.  Mkadonvckoft, 

Notary  Public, 

)  Sow  York  County. 

Punuant  to  adjournment  the  taking  of  testimony 

Sam  t?  y’  November  18,  iS81,  at  ten 
o  clock  A.  M„  the  same  counsel  being  present 


not  as  near  completed  in  No.  10  as  it  is  in  the  left- 
hand  figure  of  No.  S.  The  contact  arrangement 
shows  more  plainly  on  the  left  of  Exhibit  No  10 
than  it  does  in  Exhibit  No.  S.  The  commutator 
and  brush  are  shown  plainer  in  Exhibit  No.  to  than 
they  are  in  Exhibit  No.  S. 

Q.  05.  Please  examine  the  sketch  I  now  show  you 
and  read  what  is  written  on  the  upper  part  of  the 

A.  “  Strap  r.  I"  X  2"  copp.  w  s,  f.  E.  Tram- . 
way,  .May  24th,  1ST!).  J.  Kruesi.” 

Q.  00.  By  whom  was  this  sketch  made,  and  when, 
if  you  know? 

A.  It  was  made  by  me  on  the  date  it  bears— May 
24th,  1S70. 

Q.  07.  Was  this  sketch  made  under  the  direction 
of  any  person;  if  so,  whom? 

A.  It  was  made  under  the  direction  of  Mr.  Edi- 



Q.  OS. -Please  to  describe,  fully  and  carefully, 
what  this  sketch  illustrates?  163 

A.  It  illustrates  the  front  view  of  an  electric  loco¬ 
motive  on  a  railroad  track.  It  shows  the  general 

Q.  99.  What  kind  of  rails  appear  as  the  track  in 
this  sketch? 

A.  The  rails  that  are  shown  on  the  track  are  what 
are  called  T-rails. 

Q.  100.  How  were  the  wheels  shown  in  that 
sketch  to  be  constructed,  or  what  kind  of  wheels 
were  they  to  be?  I64 

A.  The  wheels  were  to  be  paper  wheels,  with  a 
metallic  rim. 

Q.  101.  What  means  were  employed,  if  any,  to 
conduct  electricity  along  the  line  of  the  railroad? 

A.  There  were  two  ways  proposed— one  to  use  the 
rails  as  conductors,  the  other  to  use  the  rails  for 
one  conductor,  and  a  copper  rod  for  the  other.  It 
was,  however,  later  on,  decided  to  use  the  rails  as 

John  Kruesi. 

105  Q-  102.  Is  this  sketcli  provided  with  a  comin  uta 
tor,  also  a  governor? 

A.  Yes;  there  is  a  commutator  anil  two  different¬ 
ly  applied  governors. 

Q.  103.  In  this  sketch  current  being  applied  to  the 
locomotive,  how  would  the  wheels  he  turned? 

A.  By  means  of  the  force  of  the  armature  which 
is  fast  to  the  axle  of  the  wheels. 

viuence  ami  marked  ‘ 

son’s  Exhibit  No.  11, 

Q.  104.  Did  you  make  search  for  the  models  at 
Menlo  Park,  that  were  referred  to  last  evening? 

A.  I  have  done  so,  and  I  now  produce  them. 

Q.  105.  Where  did  you  find  these  models? 

A.  I  found  them  in  the  office  which  I  occupied 
during  my  engagement  with  Mr.  Edison  at  Menlo 

Q.  100.  What  does  this  model  which  I  now  hand 
you  represent? 

107  A.  It  represents  a  railroad  track  and  trestle. 

Q.  107.  Who  made  the  model? 

A.  One  of  my  workmen,  under  my  direction. 

Q.  108.  At  what  time? 

A.  On  the  date  it  bears;  May  25th,  1879. 

Q.  109.  If  there  is  a  paper  pasted  on  the  model 
containing  writing,  read  the  writing. 

,3'  “Edison’s  Electric  Tramway,  made  May  25th, 
18i9,  Chas.  Batchelor,  John  Kruesi  ” 

ies  w  "°  "™te  ",0"n  Kn'c,i”  »  "»* 

A.  I  wrote  it  myself. 

onVe^r  "'h0“  “*■«<■«  «P!»™ 
A.  Mr.  Charles  Batchelor’s  and  my  own.  Mr 
Batckebr  wrote  the  following  words:  “  Edison’s 
Electric  Tramway,  made  Chas.  Batchelor  ” 

I  wrote  ‘  May  25th, .1870;  John  Kruesi.” 


A.  I  had  it  made  under  .Mr.  Edison's  directions.  169 
Model  put  in  evidence  and  marked  “  Edi¬ 
son's  Exhibit  No.  12." 

Q.  113.  Please  examine  the  model  I  now  show- 
yon;  state  what  it  is? 

A.  It  is  a  model  of  a  railroad  track,  supported  on 

Q.  114.  When  was  it  made,  and  under  whose  di¬ 

A.  It  was  made  on  the  date  it  bears,  or  before;  ift) 
May  25th,  1879:  under  my  directions.  ' 

Q.  1  ll>-  Did  you  have  directions  from  anybody  to 
have  it  made? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  from  Mr.  Edison. 

Q.  ll(>.  If  there  is  a  paper  on  this  model  with 
writing  upon  it,  read  the  same,  and  state  in  whose 
handwriting  it  is? 

A.  “  Edison’s  Electric  Tramway,  made  May  25th, 

1S79,  Chas.  Batchelor,  John  Kruesi.”  The  following 
words  are  in  Mr.  Batchelor’s  handwriting:  “  Edi-  171 
son’s  Electric  Tramway  made,”  “Chas.  Batchelor.” 

The  rest  if  in  my  own;  namely,  “May  25th, 

1S79,  John  Kruesi.” 

Model  put  in  evidence  and  marked  “Edi¬ 
son’s  Exhibit  No.  13.” 

Q.  117.  Please  examine  the  model  I  now  show 
you;  state  what  it  is. 

A.  It  is  a  model  of  a  railroad  track  supported  by 
trestle  work. 

Qi  US.  When  was  it  made,  and  under  whose  di-  ^ 

A.  Mr.  Edison  directed  me  to  have  it  made  on  or 
before  May  25th,  1S79. 

Q.  119.  If  there  is  a  paper  on  this  model  with 
writing  upon  it,  read  the  same,  and  state  in  whose 
handwriting  it  is. 

A.  “  Edison’s  Electric  Tramway,  made  May  25th, 

1879.  Chas.  Batchelor,  John  Kruesi.” 

The  following  is  in  Mr.  Batchelor’s  handwriting: 

“  Edison’s  Electric  Tramway  made,”  “  Chas. 

>”  is  in  my  own  handwriting. 

Model  put  in  evidence  and  marked  “Ed¬ 
ison’s  Exhibit.  u  •> 

Q.  120.  Did  you  make  a  full  sized  trestle  like  one  of 

those  shown  in  exhibits  you  have  presented,  and  if 
so,  like  which  one;  and  when  was  it  made,  and  un¬ 
der  whose  directions? 

A.  I  had  one  made  like  Exhibit  No.  12  a  short 

174  'n\e,  this  exhibit  was  It  was  directed 

by  Air.  Edison. 

Q.  121.  Where  is  that  trestle  now? 

A.  It  is  at  Menlo  Park.  It  may  not  be  in  com- 
piece  order  at  present. 

MiQE,lL?t  y7  kn0T-tl,°  ren8on  wl,ich  influenced 
SnJ  a Tt  n*Se-  ,S  el0ctric  rail'™y  Plans  of 

5 mi”  °r  P1'ali’  aml  usin«in  preference 

„  A‘  °ne  of  tlle  reasons  was  that  Mr.  Edison  feared 

175  C0Pler  would  in  unprotected,  unponu 
lated  countries  be  stolen  away,  which,  of  course 
Mould  cause  continual  interruptions.  By  carefully 
estimating  it  was  found  that  the  extra  cost  of  T 

ingawav  with  tl'S  W0Ult7  ^  nearly  balanced  by  do- 
^  '  ™lth  t,le  copper  conductor. 

Q.  123.  Do  you  know  if  Mr.  Edison,  in  May  isrn 

17G  A.  The  method  was  to  lay  a  niece  of  l,,-. 

per  under  the  fish  plates,  through  wl  icl  T  bT 

the spring of  iss“' 

totS'dlT"  the  dates  when 

A.  In  April,  I.SSO. 

John  Kruesi.  45 

Q.  12fi.  When  did  you  see  that  electric  locomotive 
last,  and  where? 

A.  I  saw  it  last  last  night,  at  Menlo  Park,  N.  J. 

Q.  127.  Did  you  examine  it  particulaily,  atmv  re¬ 
quest?  J 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  12s.  How  did  j-ou  find  the  construction  and  ar¬ 
rangement  of  the  various  operative  parts  to  corre¬ 
spond  with  those  of  the  locomotive  when  it  was  first 

A.  I  found  no  material  change  or  difference  ex¬ 
cept  in  the  driving  gear. 

Q.  120.  What  change  has  been  made  in  the  driv¬ 
ing  gear  from  the  locomotive  as  firet  built? 

A.  The  firet  built  had  friction  gears  to  transmit 
movement  or  motion,  while  at  present  motion  is 
transmitted  by  belts. 

Q.  130.  Do  you  know  how  long  these  firet  friction 
genre  were  in  (lie  locomotive;  if  so,  state  it? 

A.  They  were  only  in  until  the  firet  trial  was 

18S0  "  !'iCh  n'ay  llaVG  befi"  tllG  latter  part  of  lra-v> 

Q.  131.  After  the  belt  driving  gears  were  put  in  the 

locomotive  was  the  locomotive  put  into  use? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  132.  On  what  kind  of  a  track  and  how  long  a 
track,  and  how  frequently? 

A.  On  a  T-rail  track  about  half  a  mile  long.  If 
was  used  almost  every  day  for  a  period  of  four  or 
five  months. 

Q.  133.  What  rate  of  speed  was  attained  by  the 

A.  The  half  mile  trip  was  made  in  from  eighty  to 
ninety  seconds.  Some  parts  of  the  distance  were 
made  at  the  rate  of  forty  to  forty -five  miles  an 

Q.  134.  What  was  the  source  of  the  electric  cur¬ 

A.  Mr.  Edison’s  dynamo  machines? 

Q.  135.  Where  were  they  placed? 

A.  In  his  machine  shop,  at  Menlo  Park. 

181  Q.  130.  How  was  the  current  transmitted  from 
the  dynamo  machines  along  the  lino  of  the  railway? 

A.  By  copper  wires  from  the  dynamo  machines 
to  the  first  iron  rails,  and  from  there  the  rails  were 
the  conductors. 

Q.  137.  How  did  the  electric  current  get  from  the 
rails  into  the  locomotive? 

A.  Through  the  rims  of  the  wheels;  from  them  to 
a  hub  of  composition ;  then  through  brashes  and 
wires  to  the  respective  parts  of  the  dynamo  ma- 

182  chine. 

Q.  13S.  How  did  the  electric  current  got  out  of 
the  locomotive? 

A.  The  same  way  as  it  got  in,  on  the  other  side  of 
the  locomotive,  connected  to  the  other  rail. 

Q.  130.  If,  at  any  time,  this  belt  driving  gear  was 
taken  out  of  the  locomotive,  what  was  substituted 
for  it? 

A.  Cog-wheels. 

Q-  14°-  Do  y°u  remember  when  this  was  done? 

183  A.  It  was  done  in  the  Fall  of  1SS0. 

Q.  111.  Do  you  know  why  it  was  done-  if  so 
state  it? 

A.  It  was  done  to  produce  a  more  powerful  ma¬ 
chine  at  the  expense  of  speed. 

Q.  112.  Do  you  know  how  much  use  was  made  of 
the  locomotive  with  this  cog  gearing? 

A  It  was  only  used  three  or  four  times  for 
■  short  experiments. 

iq.  ..  Q’  U3‘  Ta,S  used  long  enough  to  demonstrate 
siJtedT  ' CablL  y0f  SUCh  gCar  for  the  purpose  de- 

„  usod  long  enouS>>  to  show  the  practi¬ 

cability  of  the  system  if  the  parts  were  made  prop- 

now  ?144‘  D°  y°U  kll°W  wIlere  tliiit  cog  gear  is 

A.  They  are  at  Menlo  Park. 

A  y!  Did  you  suPei'intend  the  making  of  it  ? 

John  Kruesi. 

Q.  110.  Has  there  been  any  change  made  in  it 
since  its  construction  ?  if  so,  what  ? 

A.  There  have  been  no  changes  but  repairs. 

Q.  117.  Can  the  cog  gear  in  that  locomotive  be 
substituted  for  the  belt-driving  gear -or  the  belt- 
dnving  gear  be  substituted  for  the  cog  gear  without 
affecting  the  integrity  of  the  machine  ?  I  mean  by 
that  without  dismantling  the  machine  and  taking 
it  all  apart.  b 

A.  Either  gear  can  be  put  in  or  taken  out  without 
taking  the  •  machine  completely  apart  and  without 
taking  the  machine  off  the  rails. 

Q.  118.  How  long  a  time  would  be  required  for 
substituting  one  form  of  gear  for  the  other  in  that 
locomotive  t 

A.  About  half  a  day. 

Q.  Hit.  When  did  you  leave  Menlo  Park  ?  I  mean 
quit  working  there. 

A.  February  26th,  1831. 

Q-  lr’°-  How  frequently  have  you  been  there 

A.  I  lived  out  there  until  the  first  of  this  month 
and,  frequently  visited  the  laboratories  and  shops  of 
Mr.  Edison  in  the  evenings  and  Sundays  and  did 
some  work  there  sometimes. 


*'?•  451;  Were  y°u  employed  by  Mr.  Edison  at 
Menlo  Park  uninterruptedly  during  the  years  1S7S 
18i9,  and  1SS0,  as  you  have  testified  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  152.  What  was  the  scope  of  your  duties  ? 

A.  I  was  foreman  of  the  mechanical  department. 

x-Q.  153.  All  of  the  models  and  machines  were 
made  in  that  department  under  your  direction  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  154.  About  how  often  did  you  see  Mr  Edi¬ 
son  ? 

A.  Sometimes  once  a  day  ;  sometimes  five  or  six 
or  more  times  a  day. 



John  Kniesi. 

189  X'Q-. 155-  Did  you  make  no  models  of  any  of  Mr. 

Edison’s  inventions  during  this  time  to  which  you 
yourself  contributed  some  of  the  elements  ? 

A.  I  don’t  understand  the  question. 

x-Q-  ISC.  Wore  your  instructions. from  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son  in  constructing  models  usually  oral  or  written  ? 

A.  Usually  verbal,  hut  very  often  written. 

x-Q.'  157.  Were  any  of  those  written  directions 
preserved  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  They  are  not  in  my  possession 

100  if  there  are  any. 

x-Q.  158.  Was  it  your  habit  to  preserve  those  in¬ 
structions  while  you  were  foreman? 

A.  I  used  to  keep  them  generally  for  tho  duration 
of  an  experiment,  after  which  I  turned  them  over 
to  the  office. 

x-Q.  15!).  Do  you  know  what  the  office  did  with 

A.  They  were  stored  away. 

x-Q.  ICO.  And  preserved? 

191  A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  1G1.  Can  you  fix  a  little  more  definitely  the 
time  when  Mr.  Edison  started  on  his  trip  out  West 
in  187S,  as  to  which  you  have  testified? 

A.  Not  from  memory,  but  I  could  find  out  from 
memorandum  books. 

x-Q.  102.  How  long  was  he  gone,  do  you  know? 

A.  He  was  away  about  six  weeks,  I  believe. 

x-Q.  1(18.  Do  you  know  where  he  went— how  far 

192  A.  To  California. 

x-Q.  104.  Do  youknowhow  long  he  was  in  Califor¬ 

A.  I  think  he  was  about  three  weeks  in  Califor¬ 
nia  and  the  .neighboring  States. 

x-Q.  105  Can  you  give  the  date  of  your  conversa- 
uon  with  him  upon  the  subject  of  electrical  rail¬ 
ways,  after  his  return? 

A.  No,  I  cannot  fix  the  date, 
back?'  16°‘  Ab°Ut  h°"’  l0ng  was  !t  nfter  lie  got 

John  Kruesi. 

A-  I  cannot  tell  what  time  after,  as  he  verv  often  iqo 
related  what  lie  had  seen  and  thought  and  done  on 
his  trip,  and  it  was  generally  done  at  times  when 
everybody  was  too  tired  to  keep  on  working,  which 
helped  to  cheer  up  the  men  to  go  to  work  again. 

x-Q.  107.  His  account  of  his  conception  of  his  elec¬ 
tric  railway,  which  would  pay  in  wheat  growing 
Stales,  was  just  one  of  his  cheering  accounts,  was 

A.  It  was  one  of  them. 

x-Q.  10S.  Do  you  recollect  any  one  particular  con-  in, 
versation  in  which  he  spoke,  of  this  or  was  it  scat- 
tered  through  several? 

A.  It  was  scattered  through  several  conversa¬ 
tions,  which  remain  in  my  memory  pretty  well,  be¬ 
cause  he  put  me  to  work  in  the  spring  of  ’79  to  esti¬ 
mate  for  such  a  railroad  with  equipments,  for  the 
purpose  then  mentioned. 

x-Q.  170.  Did  the  cheeringeffect  of  these  accounts 
of  Mr.  Edison’s  conception  of  the  electric  railway  lie 
in  the  thought  of  an  electric  railway,  or  in  the  J95 
thought  that  it  would  pay  in  wheat  growing  States? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  exactly  the  effects  of  the 
particular  accounts  in  regard  to  cheering. 

x-Q.  171.  You  cannot  fix  more  definitely  the  time 
after  his  return  from  the  West,  when  he  first  began 
to  cheer  you  with  his  conception  of  the  electric  rail¬ 

A.  No. 

x-Q.  172.  Where  was  Exhibit  No.  1  drawn? 

A.  At  my  office  at  Menlo  Park.  jog 

x-Q.  173.  At  what  time? 

A.  I  believe,  May  18th,  1S79,  or  before. 
x-Q.  174.  Can  you  not  fix  the  day  positively? 

A.  Not  without  the  aid  of  an  almanac  of  that 
year.  I  remember  it  was  on  a  Sunday— either  that 
date  or  the  nearest  Sunday  before  it. 
x-Q.  175.  What  time  of  day  was  it  made? 

A.  In  the  forenoon. 

x-Q.  170.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Edison  make  the  whole 
of  it? 

John  Kruesi. 

197  A.  I  believe  I  him  saw  make  all  of  it  ;I  am  not 
aware  that  anything  was  put  on  after  I  saw  him 
drawing  it. 

x-Q.  177.  When  was  Exhibit  No.  2  made? 

A.  The  same  day  as  Exhibit  No.  1. 
x-Q.  178.  How  long  after  it  was  made  did  you 
mark  it  ? 

A.  That  I  do  not  remember;  I  suppose  right 

X‘Q-  17!)-  Do  you  recollect  marking  it  that  day? 

198  A  No;  but  I  know  I  was  in  the  habit  of  marking 
all  sketches  that  Mr.  Edison  made  as  soon  as  ho  laid 
them  down. 

x-Q.  ISO.  Do  you  remember  what  the  letters  “E. 
L.”  are,  at  the  top,  which  have  been  erased? 

A.  I  suppose  it  was  a  mistake  in  marking. 
x-Q.  181.  You  don’t  know  what  it  means? 

A.  I  think  it  stands  for  “  Electric  Light,”  and 
was  probably  marked  on  the  sketch  by  mistake. 
W9  Light”  °n  SketC'leS  usuallV  stands  for  “Electric 

x-Q.  182.  Did  you  mark  it  immediately  after  he 
made  it? 

A.  I  may  not  have  marked  it  immediately  after 
made8  mai3e’  but  1  dated  on  41,0  day  it  was 

x-Q.  1S3.  Do  you  think  that  all  the  writing  upon 
it  was  done  by  you  at  the  same  time? 

A.  I  am  not  certain  of  that. 

*00  ti,?n'wim‘  y°U  pW  look  at  and  see  if  you 


time  1  Can't  tellWhethel' itwas  a"  (lono  at  the  same 

x-Q  185.  Is  it  all  your  handwriting? 

A.  Yes.  ° 

18C-  ™as  a11  written  at  the  same  time  it 
would  probably  have  been  written  by  the  same 
pencil,  would  it  not?  y  same 

h-,™  lTf!’  iSn,t  “k  to  include  thus,  as  I  may 
har  e  had  two  or  more  pencils  on  hand.  y 

x-Q.  1S7.  Please  look  at  Exhibits  Nos.  2,  3  4  and  o, 
H.eaw.ifte  WhetIr  “Ma>’1St»”a«d  tlie  rest  of  * 
been  ,v  f  "‘’“t!  I,10"1  "0'V  al)Pears  to  you  to  liave 
upon  each.0"  “™e  pendl  at  the  sa™  time 

te^;/rtaPPearS  t0  mU  that  t,le  dates  were  all  writ- 
ten  at  he  same  time  with  the  same  pencil,  and  the 
rest  of  the  writing  with  another  pencil. 
x-Q  iss.  Was  Exhibit  No.  2  made  by  Mr.  Edison 

Exhibit  No1  p  U  ly”10nli"S  °'1Which  h6made 

a  ‘  2C 

A.  I  can’t  tell  how  many  minutes.  He  is  vei-v 
quick  m  making  sketches  of  that  kind. 

•.ml'Vr*  f'T0  IC!°k  at  Exllihits  Nos.  2  and  8, 
nnd  tate  whether  the  initials  are  the  same  upon 

A.  They  do  not  appear  the  same,  but  I  recognize 
them  as  my  handwriting.  b 

X'Q-  ,Haveyou  any  recollection  of  when  you  “ 
marked  Exhibit  No.  3?  ^ 

A.  No,  I  have  no  distinct  recollection. 
x-Q  192.  You  fix  the  date  by  the  date  which  is 
marked  upon  the  paper  only,  I  understand? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  . 

x-Q.  193.  Will  you  please  point  out  on  Exhibit  No 
4,  the  handwriting  of  Mr.  Edison,  by  which  you 
testified  that  you  recognized  it? 

A.  By  the  words  “same  here.” 
x-Q.  194.  Have  you  ever  known  Mr.  Edison  to 
write  upon  the  sketches  made  by  other  persons  than 

A.  I  do  not  recollect  any  drawing  or  sketch  not 
made  by  him  that  he  wrote  on. 

x-Q.  195.  Did  he,  to  your  knowledge,  ever  write 
upon  anj-  sketches  or  drawings  made  bv  you? 

A.  He  may  have  written  some  remarks  on  my  or 
other  drawings,  but  I  do  not  .remember  any  such 

John  Kruesi. 

205  x-Q.  100.  In  dating  those  sketches  at  Menlo  Park, 
were  dates  fixed  to  them  at  Mr.  Edison’s  direction? 

A.  Some  of  his  employees  were  requested  to  date 
the  drawings  and  sketches,  and  sign  them. 

x-Q.  197.  In  such  cases,  the  dating  would  he 
merely  a  dictation  from  Mr.  Edison,  would  it  not? 

A.  It  was  a  general  dictation  which  was  not  given 
for  any  special  or  particular  drawing  or  sketch,  hut 
the  order  was  in  general  to  date  all  sketches  and  all 
drawings  that  were  made  there  on  the  day  they 

206  were  made,  or  in  case  it  was  neglected  to  put  the 
date  down  on  the  day  the  sketch  was  made,  to  put 
down  the  date  of  the  day  when  they  were  dated. 

x-Q.  19S.  Did  you  ever  know  of  a  drawing  which 
was  not  dated  when  it  was  made,  to  subsequently 
have  been  marked  with  the  date  of  making? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  any  particular  drawing, 
but  am  aware  of  cases  where  it  was  neglected  and 
put  on  afterwards. 

x-Q.  199.  How  far  do  you  know  that  Exhibit  No. 

207  7  was  made  upon  the  same  day  as  Exhibit  No.  0? 

.  A.  I  only  judge  from  the  relation  of  the  two 

x-Q.  200.  You  do  not  remember  that  Mr.  Edison 
told  you  that  such  was  the  fact? 

A.  No. 

x-Q.  201.  Do  you  remember  when  Exhibit  No.  0 
was  marked? 

A.  I  do  not  distinctly  remember. 

x-Q.  202.  You  don’t  remember  the  day  of  the 

208  week? 

A.  No. 

x-Q.  201.  In  your  explanation  of  what  you  under- 
stand  Exlnbit  No.  1  to  represent,  how  do  you  know 
what  the  word  “  shaft”  is  intended  to  mean 
«  wT!ie.tW0  Iines  between  which  the  word 
shaft  is  written  indicate  to  me  that  they  are 

SSlTS  thabdt  Which  necessarfiy  has  to 

John  Ki 

x-Q.  205.  Your  general  knowledge  as  a  median-  -mo 
■cal  engineer  enables  you,  I  understand;  to  state 
what  is  thus  intended  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

*'Q-  20“;  .P]ease  ]ook  at  Exhibit  No.  4,  and  state 
J°u  tIllnk  ^  represents  a  current  fcverser? 
devices'0"1  ",y  eelK','al  knmvledSe  of  Mr.  Edison’s 
x-Q.  207.  When  was  Exhibit  No.  S  made. 

A.  It  must  have  been  made  on  the  date  which  it 
beais,  as  I  recollect  making  it  myself.  5>1n 

x-Q.  20S.  How  long  did  it  take  you  ? 

■l  day1  d°  ”0t  IeC°I,CCt’  1)Ut  sll0U,(1  judge  about  half 

x-Q.  209.  Do  you  remember  the  day  of  the  week » 

A.  No;  I  do  not. 

x-Q.  210.  Was  it  the  same  day  on  which  you  saw 
Exhibits  Nos.  1  and  2,  drawn  by  Mr.  Edison  » 

A.  I  think  it  was  the  same  day. 
x-Q.  211.  That,  I  understand  you  to  have  testified, 
was  on  Sunday  ?  ’ 

A.  Yes.  ’  211 

x-Q.  212  You  have,  however,  no  recollection,  I 
understand  you,  of  making  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  recollection  of  making  it,  but 
week  1  ll°  "0t  leCOllCct  is  tIle  ll0ur  or  tl,e  da)r  of 
x-Q.  213.  Are  you  sure  that  it  was  made  upon  the 
same  day  as  Nos.  1  and  2  ? 

A-  Yes ;  I  am  sure  on  account  of  the  date. 
x-Q.  214.  Did  you  make  it  before  or  after  ?  -213 

A.  After ;  because  Exhibits  1  and  2  served  as  ex¬ 
planations  for  No.  8,  or  as  a  basis  to  work  upon.  * 

,  Do  y°u  remember  when  you  made  Ex¬ 

hibit  No.  9  ? 

A.  I  remember  that  I  made  it  shortly  after  No.  S.  ‘ 
x-Q.  216.  Can’t  you  fix  the  time  any  more  defi¬ 
nitely  ? 

A  I  cannot  fix  it  definitely.  I  only  remember 
that  1  estimated  the  probable  cost  of  1,000  feet  of 
such  a  road  about  that  time. 

213  x-Q.  217.  How  long  after  Mr.  Edison  directed  this 
estimate  to  be  made  did  you  make  it  ? 

A.  I  cannot  define  the  time. 

x-Q.  21 S.  Do  you  remember  wliat  he  said  when  he 
told  you  to  make  such  an  estimate  ? 

A.  After  he  had  a  rough  idea  of  the  constiuction 
of  such  a  locomotive  and  track,  he  directed  me  to 
estimate  the  probable  cost  of  a  thousand  feet  of 
such  a  road  as  the  drawings  produced  here  indicate. 

x-Q.  21!).  What  is  that  building  shown  on  Ex- 

214  hibit  No.  C,  intended  to  represent? 

A.  As  near  as  I  remember,  he  intended  it  to  show 
a  railroad  station  when  the  dynamo  machines  were 
rim  by  a  wind  mill. 

A.  I  remember  discussing  the  matter. 
x-Q.  221.  Was  it  suggested,  so  far  as  you  ca 
member, that  such  a  means  of  generating  powei 

A.  No;  I  think  it  was  suggested  for  the  use  of 
such  a  railroad  in  the  far  West,  in  the  mining  coun¬ 

x-Q.  222.  Do  you  remember  which  of  your  work¬ 
men  made  those  models.  Exhibits  10,  11  and 

A.  By  Milo  P.  Andrews. 

(  x-Q.  220.  Where  is  he? 

A.  He  resides  at  Menlo  Park. 

x-Q.  224.  Do  you  remember  when  they  were 

A.  Yes;  I  remember  that  they  were  made  right 
after  I  bad  sketches  made,  and  from  sketches  re¬ 
ceived  from  Mr.  Edison,  which  are  those  introduced 
as  exhibits. 

x-Q.  225.  Do  you  remember  if  any  of  these  pa¬ 
pers  were  ever  given  by  you  to  this  workman  An¬ 

John  Kruesi. 

wet  rcmember;  1  a°  aot  ‘hink  they  217 

,  i  “f there  18  110  measurement  on  them  which  I 

x-Q.  220.  Do  you  remember  what  drawings  if 
any,  were  made  by  Mr.  Hornig*  S  ’ 

H,t„7e!;-IlTUemberthat  118  made  drawings  for 
‘trds  °  l0C°ni0tiVe’  Which  "’e  made  tier- 

, -f'5*-  2?7'  Was  the  electric  locomotive  made  from 
his  drawings,  or  from  these  of  yours?  218 

A.  It  was  made  from  his  drawings 
drivings2? '  D°  V°U  kn°W  Whnt  *las  become  of  these 

-  beIleve  they  are  in  charge  of  the  Engineer- 
mg  Department  of  the  Edison  Electric  Light  Com- 

x-Q.  229.  What  became  of  these  drawings  of 
yours  after  they  were  made?  8 

An  them  int0  the  office  at  Menlo  Park 

x-Q.  230.  Do  you  know  what  use,  if  any  was  219 
made  of  them?  *  JS 

A.  No;  I  do  not. 

-x-Q.  231.  Do  you  remember  when  it  was  decided 
to  give  up  the  copper  rod  or  wires  of  which  you  have 
spoken,  and  to  use  only  the  rails  as  conduc- 

MA:  About  the  time  between  the  18th  and  2tth  of 

x-Q.  232.  1  hat  was  the  final  decision  was  it  so 
far  as  you  know?  ’  so  220 

A.  As  far  as  I  know  it  was. 
t;JT?\233‘  ™»t  change  was  made  in  the  locomo- 
ti\e  between  the  time  when  you  last  saw  it,  previ¬ 
ous  to  yesterday,  and  yesterday,  other  than  that  of 
the  gearing  apparatus  which  you  have  been  men¬ 

Objected  to  by  counsel  for  Edison  as  not  a 
correct  statement  of  the  testimony,  as  witness 
has  nowhere  stated  that  there  has  been  any 

John  Kruesi. 

221  change  in  the  gearing  of  the  locomotive  be¬ 

tween  the  two  times  when  lie  last  saw  it. 
Question  withdrawn. 

x-Q.  234.  What  change,  if  any,  was  made  in  the 
locomotive  between  the  time  when  it  was  first  com¬ 
pleted  and  yesterday  when  you  saw  it,  other  than 
that  of  the  gearing  apparatus. 

A.  There  were  only  changes  made  in  the  wood¬ 
work  for  seats  for  the  engineer  and  hrakeman; 
changes  of  the  brakes:  and  changes  of  the  connect- 
222  ing  wires  necessitated  by  the  changing  of  the 

t«s,  by  means  of  friction  wheels,  used? 

A.  It  was  in  the  machine  'perhaps  four  davs,  run¬ 
ning  perhaps  an  hour  or  two. 
x-Q.  231).  Why  and  when  was  it  taken  out?  ' 

A.  It  broke  by  an  accident,  and  was  taken  out 
the  same  day. 

X‘Q-  237.  What  was  the  occasion  of  the  accident? 

2-8  A.  The  engineer  threw  in  the  gems  too  suddenly. 
x-Q.  23S.  Was  it  replaced? 

.  A  No,  the  driving  gear  was  changed  immediately 
into  belt  driving  gears. 

x-Q.  239.  How  did  a  different  kind  of  gear  come 
to  be  substituted  after  this  accident? 

A.  Because  it  would  have  taken  too  long  to  re¬ 
place  the  first,  and  Mr.  Edison  wanted  to  use  the 
locomotive  right  off. 

224  X  24?-  Wllat  kiu<1  o£  1,eltinK  "'as  used  in  this 
new  gearing  apparatus? 

A.  Double  leather  belts. 

x-Q.  241.  How  long  was  this  apparatus  used* 

A  The  first  belts,  pulleys  and  shafts  were  put  on 
quickly, gathered  up  mthe shop,  and  were  not  put 
on  in  such  a  manner  as  to  make  them  permanent.’ 
They  were  replaced  afterward  by  more  solid  and 
permanent  hangers  of  the  same  kind. 

stitu?ed2?42'  Whe"  "  3S  th°  C0S01'  tooth  gearing  sub- 
A.  In  the  fall  of  1SS0. 



John  Kruesi.  57 

Do  >’ou  kl10"'  "'by  it  was  substituted? 

A.  For  the  purpose  of  converting  the  same  machine 
into  a  slow-running,  powerful  machine  for  a  steep 
inclined  railroad.  1 

x-Q.  244.  How  long  was  that  used? 

A.  It  was  used  a  short  time  only, 
x-Q.  243  What  were  the  repairs  to  the  cogs  of 
which  you  have  spoken? 

A.  The  repairs  were  to  the  friction  clutches. 
x-Q.  240.  What  was  the  nature  of  those  repairs? 

A.  They  were  not  made  exactly  right  in  the  first  S 
place,  and  had  to  he  altered  to  suit  the  other  "arts 
of  the  machine. 

Counsel  roil  Siemens. 

x-Q  24,.  T:  ou  state  in  answer  to  Question  1  that 
your  occupation  is  that  of  Treasurer  for  the  Elec¬ 
trical  Tube  Company.  What  was  your  occupation 
prior  to  holding  that  office? 

A.  I  was  foreman  of  the  mechanical  department  0< 
of  Mr.  Edison’s  laboratory  at  Menlo  Park. 

x-Q.  24 S.  How  long  were  you  in  Mr.  Edison’sem- 

A.  Nine  years. 

x-Q.  249.  Do  yon  mean  for  the  nine  years  imme¬ 
diately  preceding  the  time  you  entered  the  employ¬ 
ment  of  the  Electrical  Tube  Company? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  250.  When  and  where  ‘did  you  first  become 
acquainted  with  Mr.  Edison. 

A.  In  the  spring  of  1871,  in  Newark,  N.  J.  22 

x-Q.  2?1.  What  was  your  occupation  before  going 
into  Mr.  Edison’s  employ? 

A.  I  was  tool  maker  in  Singer’s  needle  factoiy. 
x-Q.  252.  Are  you  a  mechanical  engineer  by  pro¬ 
fession?  ‘  "  ' 

A.  I  am  a  machinist  by  profession. 

x-Q.  253.  Where  were  you  bom,  Mr.  Kruesi? 

A.  In  Switzerland. 

John  Kruesi. 

229  x-Q.  254.  You  speak  anti  read  the  German  lan¬ 
guage,  do  you  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  255.  How  long  have  you  been  in  this  couii- 

A.  Within  one  month  of  eleven  years. 
x-Q.  256.  When  did  you  last  visit  Europe? 

A.  I  have  never  been  back  to  Europe  since  I 
arrived. in  this  country. 

x-Q.  257.  Have  you  ever  been  called  upon  by  Mr. 

230  Edison  to  act  as  an  interpreter  or  to  make  transla- 

EnglishT"  Gennan  °r  any  f°reign  languaSe  int<> 
A.  1  have  sometimes  translated  letters  and  news¬ 
paper  articles. 

x-Q.  258.  Do  you  remember  now  any  particular 
newspaper  articles  that  you  ever  had  occasion  to 
translate  for  Mr.  Edison? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  any  particular  ones. 

2si  r“,ufa  n“w 

-4/  ,Th?y  wer®  /°reign  newspapers  which  were 
sent  to  him,  which  contained  articles  which  the 
senders  thought  would  interest  him. 

x-Q.  260.  Do  you  remember  the  names  of  any  of 
these  newspapers  from  which  you  translated  art- 

A.  No;  I  do  not  remember  their  names 

]atei'[Tr\?ny0a  T?mb6r  ever  t0  have  tra»s- 
lated  for  him  an  article  or  articles  contained  in 
newspaper  or  periodicals  printed  in  German  or  any 
lA  Yes6'611  angUage  in  this  “nnfoy?  7 

pape??  2°U‘  PleaSe  ®Ve  the  Dame  of  such  news- 
-  A-  The  “New  York  Staats  Zeitung,”  “Belcfrk 

hats  al{  I1™"1  ”  aDd  v'ttsbui'e  “Freiheits  FrerSd;” 
thats  all  I  can  remember. 

nafs  of  wW  I6"6  tv6  names>if  you  can,  of  the  jour¬ 
nals  of  which  you  have  spoken  as  they  would  he 
rendered  in  English?  y  oum  1)0 

JoM,'nlp>L“«,I?'',k  Sta‘e  Gai!ette’”  “Belles  Lettres  288 
Jom iuil,  i  ittshurg  Friend  of  Liberty.” 

a  t  "i'2’  ‘4,<i  you  a  subscriber  for  these  papers? 
named  laVC  bee"  a  subsci'iber  for  the  first  two 

*Iow  lone  since  you  were  a  subscriber 
for  the  first  two  named? 

Fol;th«  “Staate  Zeitung,”off  and  on  until  last 
P  ,th®  Beletnstisches  Journal”  I  had  for  one 
year;  I  believe  it  was  1S77. 

x-Q.  264.  Wore  you  a  subscriber  of  any  of  the  234 
papers  named  during  the  years  1879  and  13S0* 

J  ieh.eve1I  foe  «'o  “New  York  Staats  Zei- 
tung  during  both  years;  for  no  other. 

x-Q.  265.  Please  state  as  nearly  as  you  can  what 
Gorman  papers  or  periodicals  you  remember  to  have 
read  during  the  years  1S79  and  1SS0? 

A- The  N.  Y.  Staats  Zeitung,  the  Techniker 
and  occasionally  papers  that  were  sent  to  me  of 
winch  I  can  only  remember  the  names  of  two— the 
Pittsburg  Freiheits  Freund  and,  I  think,  the  other's  235 
name  is  Volksfreund,  printed  also  in  Pittsburg. 

x-Q.  266.  Are  any  of  the  papers  of  which  you 
have  spoken  devoted  to  scientific  or  mehanical 

A.  Yes;  the  Techniker. 

x-Q.  267.  As  the  Techniker  relates  to  your 
profession,  I  suppose  you  were  in  the  habit  of 
reading  it  pretty  regularly  during  the  yeais  1879 
and  18S0,  were  you  not? 

A.  No;  as  before  stated  I  only  read  it  occasionally?  236 
x-Q.  208.  Do  you  remember  to  have  translated 
for  Mr.  Edison  any  articles  from  the  papers  of 
which  ou  have  spoken? 

A.  I  believe  I  did  translate  one  article  which  was 
bearing  upon  electric  light. 

x-Q.  269.  From  what  paper  was  that  article 
upon  electric  light  taken? 

A.  From  the  Techniker. 

x-Q.  270.  Do  you  remember  the  month  and  year 
m  which  the  Techniker  containing  the  article  upon 
the  electric  light  was  published? 

John  Kruesi. 

237  A.  I  think  it  was  in  1880,  but  I  do  not  remember 
the  month. 

x-Q.  271.  What  electric  light  was  described  in 
that  article  in  the  Techniker? 

A.  Edison’s. 

x-Q.  272.  Was  the  article  an  illustrated  article? 

A.  I  think  it  contained  an  illustration  of  Edison’s 
incandescent  lamp. 

x-Q.  273.  Do  you  remember  to  have  translated  any 
other  article  from  the  Techniker  for  Mr.  Edison? 

238  A.  No;  I  do  not  remember  any  other. 

x-Q.  274.  Does  Mr.  Edison  subscribe  for  the 
Techniker  or  any  other  German  publication  which 
you  have  mentioned? 

A.  No;  not  to  my  knowledge. 

x-Q.  275.  Where  did  you  obtain  the  paper  called 
the  Techniker  from  which  you  made  the  translation 
for  Mr.  Edison? 

A.  I  got  it  from  a  man  whose  name  is  Holzer. 

x-Q.  270.  Who  is  Mr.  Holzer,  what  is  his 

239  occupation  and  where  does  he  live? 

A.  His  occupation  is  glassblower  and  ho  lives  at 
Menlo  Park. 

x-Q.  277.  Is  he  in  Mr.  Edison’s  employ,  and  if  so, 
for  how  long  has  he  been  in  his  employ? 

A.  I  think  he  has  been  in  his  employ  since 
January,  1880. 

x-Q.  278.  Does  Mr.  Holzer  subscribe  for  the 

A.  I  think  not. 

340  x-Q.  279.  Do  you  know  of  anybody  else  in  Mr 
Edison’s  employ  who  now  subscribes  for  the 
Te^ker,  or  who  did  so  subscribe  in  1879  and 

A.  I  do  not  know  of  anybody. 

By  consent  the  taking  of  further  testimony  was 
postponed  to  Monday,  November  21st,  1SS1  at  10 
o’clock  A.  M.,  at  same  place. 

Wm.  H.  Meadowcroft, 

Notary  Public, 

New  York  Co. 


Jolm  Kruesi. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment,  the  taking  of  testimo-  241 
ny  was  continued  on  Monday,  November  21,  1SS1, 
at  same  place,  the  same  counsel  being  present. 

x-Q.  279  In  making  the  figures  and  drawings 
shown  on  Exhibits  Nos.  8,  9,  10  and  II,  did  you  re- 

ceneany  assistance  or  instructions  from  a  person 
or  persons  who  bad  seen  Siemens'  electric  railway 
m  operation  at  Berlin,  Dusseldorf  or  Brussels? 

A.  No.  I  have  not  received  any  instructions  or 
assistance  from  anybody  except  Mr.  Edison. 

x-Q  2S0.  When  Mr.  Edison  gave  you  the  instruc-  242 
tions  to  make  Exhibits  Nos.  S,  9,  10  and  11,  did  he 
iiifoim  joutbat  the  apparatus  which  lie  desired 
illustrated  was  the  same  as  that  which  bad  been  re¬ 
duced  to  practice  and  put  in  successful  operation 
by  Siemens  at  Berlin? 

A.  No,  he  did  not. 

x-Q.  581  What,  if  anything,  did  he  state  to  you 
with  regard  to  the  Siemens’  electric  railway? 

A.  I  don  t  remember  that  he  spoke  of  the  Sie¬ 
mens’  electric  railway  about  the  time  that  these  ex-  343 
l»bits  8,  9,  19  and  11  were  made. 

x-Q.  282.  At  what  time,  then,  did  bespeak  of  the 
Siemens’  electric  railway  to  you? 

A.  As  far  as  I  remember,  it  was  some  time  after 
when  I  mentioned  that  I  was  reading  about  Sie¬ 
mens’  electric  railway  in  some  paper. 

.  X‘Q-  2S3-  What  did  he  say  to  you  when  you  men¬ 
tioned  your  reading  of  the  Siemens’  electric  railway 
in  some  paper? 

A.  I  don’t  remember  much  of  what  he  said  I  244 
think  he  mentioned  that  Siemens’s  electric  railway 
would  not  answer  for  the  purpose  that  he  designed 
lus  for. 

x-Q.  2S4.  Did  he  state  the  reason  for  which  it 
would  not  answer  the  purpose  for  which  he  had 
designed  his? 

A.  I  do  not  recollect  whether  he  did  or  not. 
x-Q.  2S5.  What  else  did  he  say  to  you  concerning 
the  Siemen’s  electric  railway? 

A.  I  don’t  remember  anything  about  this  conver- 

John  Kruesi. 

sation  on  Siemens’  electric  railway,  except  when  it 
wag  mentioned  to  him  and  we  had  our  railroad 
going,  that  Siemens  was  using  the  rails  as  one  part 
of  the  circuit,  and  a  separate  conductor  for  the 
other  part, and  he  said  that  he  didn't  see  any  trouble 
in  using  the  rails  alone. 

x-Q.  2SG.  What  did  Mr.  Edison  mean  by  stating 
that  Siemens’s  railway  would  not  answer  his  pur¬ 
pose?  Did  he  mean '  the  purposes  of  transmitting 
grain— the  far  .1  purposes  of  which  you  have  here- 

246  tofore  spoken. 

A.  I  don’t  remember  whether  he  explained  the 
matter  or  not.  I  don't  know  what  he  meant. 

x-Q.  2S7.  If  you  did  not  undei-stand  Mr.  Edison's 
remark  to  you,  why  did  you  not  ask  him  what  lie 

A.  I  don’t  know;  perhaps  it  was  lack  of  time. 

x-Q.  2SS.  Are  you  not  generally  in  the  habit  of 
endeavoring  to  undei-stand  remarks  made  by  .Mr. 
Edison  to  you? 

247  A.  Yes,  I  generally  endeavor  to  undei-stand,  hut 
we  both  were  often  very  busy,  so  that  I  was  satis¬ 
fied  with  a  short  answer. 

x-Q.  2, so.  What  were  you  so  busy  about  at  that 

A.  There  were  two  or  more  experiments  going  on 
at  the  same  time,  and  they  all  required  our  atten¬ 

x-Q.  290.  State  what  these  two  or  more  experi¬ 
ments  were? 

-6*.  A.  Electric  light  and  telephone. 

x-Q.  291.  When  did  you  commence  the  experi¬ 
ments  on  the  electric  light  to  which  vou  have  hist 

A.  The  summer  of  1878. 

x-Q.  292.  When  did  you  commence  the  experi¬ 
ments  on  the  telephone  to  which  you  have  just  re- 

A.  I  think  it  was  in  the  fall  of  1875. 

x-Q.  293.  You  speak  of  “  two  or  more”  experi¬ 
ments.  Were  you  experimenting  011  anything  else 

John  Kruesi. 

beside  the  electric  fight  and  telephone  at  the  time  249 
to  nr>  ?  f  "  V °  s,°  H,sy  tba*-  y°u  did  hot  endeavor 
to  understand  what  Mr,  Edison  meant  when  he 

ans«dt<|-0llt  lat,1,CSiemenS  raiIway  would  not 
answer  Ins  purpose? 

J  rrml  “t"’°  °r  moro>”  bcca«se  1  was  not 
sure  t  at  there  were  only  two,  and  do  not  remember 
"  at  the  others  were*,  if  there  were  any. 

x-Q.  204  What  particular  work  upon  the  electric 
bghtor  telephone  were  you  engaged  on  when  Mr. 
Edison  informed  you  that  the  Siemens’  electric  rail-  250 
way  would  not  answer  his  purpose? 

A.  I  do  not  recollect. 

x-Q  295.  Where  were  you  when  Mr.  Edison  in- 
fanned  you  that  the  Siemens’ electric  railway  would 
not  answer  his  purpose. 

A.  At  Menlo  Park. 

x-Q.  29(i.  At  what  part  of  Menlo  Park? 

A  I  do  not  remember  the  particular  spot  I  stood 
but  it  was  inside  of  his  establishment  there  as  near 
as  I  can  remember.  ’  25] 

x-Q.  207  Did  you  show  Mr.  Edison  the  paper 
from  which  you  read  the  descriptions  of  the  Siemens’ 
electric  railway? 

A.  I  don  t  think  I  did;  I  don’t  remember. 
x-Q.  29S.  Did  you  have  the  paper  with  you  when 
you  gave  him  the  information  concerning  the  Sie¬ 
mens’  electric  railway? 

A.  I  do  not  recollect. 

x-Q  209.  Do  you  recollect  whether  you  read  to 
him  the  article  in  the  paper,  or  informed  him  of  the  252 
article  concerning  the  Siemens’  electric  railway? 

A.  No;  I  do  not  recollect. 

x-Q.  300.  Do  you  recollect  whether  Mr.  Edison 
asked  you  to  procure  that  paper  for  him? 

A.  No;  I  do  not. 

x-Q.  301.  Where  did  you  obtain  the  paper  from 
which  you  read  the  article  concerning  Siemens’  elec¬ 
tric  railway? 

A.  I  don’t  remember. 

John  Kruesi. 

x-Q.  302.  Have  you  what  is  considered  a  good 

A.  I  think  it  is  variable.  Some  tilings  remain  a 
long  while,  and  others  I  forget  right  away. 

x-Q.  303.  What  became  of  the  paper  from  which 
you  read  the  article  concerning  Siemens’  electric 

A.  I  don’t  know. 

x-Q.  30+.  When  did  you  last  see  that  paper? 

A.  I  don’t  know. 

x-Q.  305.  Was  the  pai«r  a  scientific  pajier  or  an 
ordinary  daily  newspaper? 

A.  I  don’t  remember. 

x-Q.  30(1.  Do  you  remember  whether  the  paper 
contained  any  illustrations? 

A.  I  don’t  remember  to  have  seen  any  illustra¬ 
tion  of  the  Siemens’  electric  railway. 

x-Q.  307.  In  what  year  was  it  that  this  conversa¬ 
tion  occurred  between  you  and  Mr.  Edison  concern¬ 
ing  Siemens’  electric  railway? 

A.  I  think  it  was  in  1870. 

x-Q.  30S.  What  kind  of  weather  was  it  when  the 
conversation  occurred,  cold  or  warm  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  in  warm  weather,  as  I  consider 
spring,  summer,  and  fall  warm  weather,  and  only 
winter  cold. 

x-Q.  300.  What  reason  have  you  for  thinking  it 
was  warm  weather  when  the  conversation  occurred 
between  you  and  Mr.  Edison  concerning  the  Siemens 
electric  railway  ? 

A.  For  the  reason  that  the  winter  was  just  over 
when  I  was  first  engaged  in  the  experiment,  and 
that  I  do  not  recollect  to  have  been  engaged  in  the 
experiment  again  during  the  winter  following. 

x-Q.  310.  What  experiments  do  you  refer  to? 

A.  The  electric  railroad  experiment. 

x-Q.  311.  I  understand  you  to  state  that  it  was  in 
the  year  1870,  in  warm  weather,  immediately  after 
the  winter, when  you  had  the  conversation  with  Mr. 

correct  ?  ‘ ■  ’  s 

Counsel  for  Edison  objects  to  the  question 
on  the  gt  oiind  that  it  pre-supposes  a  state¬ 
ment  that  the  witness  has  nowhere  made, 
namely,  that  the  conversation  took  place  im¬ 
mediately  after  the  winter. 

A.  I  answered  that,  I  think  it  was  in  warm 
fall'*'*"21'-  ^  m'glit  have  been  spring,  summer,  or 

cerning  the  electric  railway  in  your  answer  to  ques¬ 
tion  310?  1 

A  1  1  t  1  all  tl  k  done  for  an  inven¬ 

tion  until  the  same  is  complete  for  practical  use  to 
be  expei  imental— it  may  be  drawing, machine  work, 
blacksmith  work,  or  caiqienter  work. 

x-Q.  313.  Was  any  machine  work,  blacksmith 
work,  or  carpenter  work  done  on  the  electric  rail¬ 
road  of  Mr.  Edison  in  1S79,  if  so,  what  ? 

A.  There  was  some  carpenter  work  and  some 
machine  work  on  the  models,  Exhibits  12,  13,  and 

x-Q.  314.  Was  there  any  other  carpenter  work, 
machine  work,  or  blacksmith  work  done  upon  the 
electric  railroad  of  Mr.  Edison  during  the  year  1S79, 
except  that  done  upon  the  exhibits  of  which  you 
have  just  testified? 

A.  Yes,  there  was  a  full  sized  model  of  the  trestle 
made  on  which  there  was  some  carpenter  work, 
blacksmith  work,  and  machine  work  done. 

x-Q.  315.  Where  is  that  model  of  the  trestle  of 
which  you  speak  ?  . 

A.  I  think  some  parts  of  it  can  be  found  at  Menlo 
Park  around  the  laboratory  of  Mr.  Edison. 

x-Q.  310.  What  time  during  the  year  1S79  was 
the  model  of  the  trestle  made  of  which  you  have 
just  testified  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  about  June  or  July. 


66  John  Kruesi. 

x-Q.  317.  Was  any  model  made  of  the  electric 
locomotive  of  Mr.  Edison  during  1ST!). 

A.  I  think  there  were  some  Patent  Office  models 
made,  but  I  am  not  sure,  though. 

x-Q.  31S.  What  reason  have  you  to  think  that  any 
Patent  Office  models  were  made  in  1S7U  ?  - 
A.  I  think  I  remember  that  they  were  made  in 
the  shop,  but  I  am  not  sure. 

x-Q.  310.  What  particular  experiment  concerning 
the  electric  railway  were  going  on  at  the  time  you 

262  described  Siemens’s  electric  railway  to  Mr.  Edison  ? 

A.  I  don’t  remember. 

x-Q.  320.  Give  as  nearly  as  you  can  the  language 
which  you  used  in  describing  Siemens’s  electric 
railway  to  Mr.  Edison. 

A.  I  stated  that  I  read  in  some  paper  that  Siemens 

had  an  elevated  electric  railway  in  experimental 
operation  at  Berlin.  That’s  as  near  as  I  can  remem- 

or9  X'Q;. :'21'  State  08  nearl-v  as  you  can  all  the' con- 

263  vernation  that  occurred  between  you  and  Mr.  Edison 
aUhat  time,  concerning  the  Siemens  electric  rail- 

A.  I  don’t  recollect  Mr.  Edison’s  answer  any  more 
than  that  he  answered  as  I  stated  before,  to  the  ef¬ 
fect  that  Siemens’  system  of  electric  railway  would 
not  answer  his  purpose. 

x-Q  322  Did  any  one  who  had  seen  publications 
describing  Siemens’, electric  railway, assist  you  in  the 
preparations  of  the  drawings  shown  in  Exhibits  S 

3104  !>,  10  and  11? 

A.  No;  I  don’t  think  that  anybody  except  Mr 
Edison  gave  me  any  instructions  or  assistance  or  ad¬ 
vice.  Whether  Mr.  Edison  had  read  anything  or 
knew  anything  about  Siemens,  I  don’t  know. 

x-Q.  323.  Do  you  know  whether  he  had  heard  any¬ 
thing  about  Siemens  at  or  before  the  time  he  gave 
you  instructions  about  Exhibits  8,  9,  10  and  IP 

A.  No;  I  don’t  know. 

x-Q.  324.  Have  you  conversed  with  any  other  per- 

John  Kruesi. 

railway?**8  M''‘  EdlS0"  concen,il,S  Siemens’  electric  266 

Mr th?  ,,n,,,«of  the  persons  other  than 
Mi.  Edison,  with  whom  you  conversed  concerning 
Siemens’  electric  railway?  g 

A.  I  think  I  conversed  with  Mr.  Hornig,  but  don't 
lun ember  any  other  person  particularly. 

sation  wl";  iStllteaS  T,l'lyaS  y°U  convex 

Iloniig?  *  0CCU,Te'1  bet"'eel1  yourself  and  Mr.  266 

A.  I  can  t  state  the  conversation  at  all. 
x-Q.  327.  Can  you  remember  what  you  said  to  Mr 
Hormg  concerning  Siemens’  electric  railway? 

A.  No;  I  can’t. 

'X'Q;  ;!2S-  Do  you  remember  of  any  one  besides 
Mr.  Hornig  s1,eakmg  to  you  concerning  the  Siemens 
electric  railway? 

A.  No;  I  do  not  remember  any  one. 
x-Q.  329.  Were  you  in  the  habit  of  meeting  people  267 
of  Ellison? t0  J*en'°  see  *be  eiectric  railway 

A.  No;  I  wasn’t  in  the  habit;  it  happened  often. 
x-Q.  330.  Do  you  know  at  this  time  why  the 
Siemens  electric  railway  would  not  answer  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son’s  purpose? 

A.  No;  I  do  not. 

x-Q.  331.  Did  you  ever  see  a  model  or  a  drawing 
of  the  Siemens  electric  railway? 

A.  I  think  I  have  seen  some  illustrations  of  his  268 
Paris  electric  railway. 

x-Q.  332.  Where  did  you  see  those  illustrations? 

A.  I  think  it  was  in  some  illustrated  paper  that 
was  sent  to  me. 
x-Q.  333.  Who  sent  it  to  you? 

A.  If  anybody,  it  was  Mr.  Charles  Batchelor 
x-Q.  334.  Who  is  Mr.  Batchelor? 

A.  The  gentleman  who  has  charge  of  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son’s  exhibit  in  Paris. 

x-Q.  335.  Was  the  paper  sent  to  you  from  Paris? 

fiS  John  Kruesi. 

269  A.  AH  the  papers  he  sent  me  came  from  Paris. 

x-Q.  330.  Was  the  drawing  contained  in  the  paper 
sent  to  you  by  Hr.  Batchelor,  accompanied  by  a 

A.  I  don’t  remember. 

x-Q.  337.  Was  the  paper  printed  in  the  French 

A.  All  the  papers  he  sent  me  were  in  the  French 

x-Q.  33S.  Is  your  knowledge  of  French  sufficient 

210  to  enable  you  to  read  an  article  printed  in  the 
French  language? 

A.  My  knowledge  is  sufficient  to  enable  me  to 
understand  an  article  generally. 

x-Q.  339.  What  was  the  name  of  the  paper  sent 
you  by  Mr.  Batchelor  containing  a  description  of 
the  Siemens  Railway? 

A.  I  do  not  know  that  he  did  send  it  to  me.  I 
only  stated  that  I  think  he  did.  I  don’t  know  the 
name  of  the  paper. 

271  X'Q-  840.  Do  you  remember  seeing  any  other  illus¬ 
tration,  of  the  Siemens  Electric  Railway  besides  that 
contained  in  the  newspaper  sent  you? 

A.  No;  I  do  not  remember  to  have  seen  any  other. 

x-Q.  341.  You  spoke  of  translating  for  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son  an  article  concerning  the  electric  light,  from  a 
paper  called  11  Der  Techniker.”  Did  that  paper  con¬ 
tain  any  allusion  to  Siemens’  Electric  Railway? 

A.  I  don’t  think  it  did. 

x-Q.  342.  Do  you  remember  to  have  heard  that  a 
description  of  Siemens’  Electric  Railway  was  pub¬ 
lished  in  “Der  Techniker”  or  any  foreign  news¬ 

A.  I  do  not  remember  of  any  particular  case. 

x-Q.  343.  When  did  you  first  hear  of  an  electric 

A.  I  believe  I  heard  of  such  experiments  when  I 
was  a  boy.  Since  then  I  think  the  first  was  Mr 
Edison’s  own. 

x-Q.  344.  You  say  you  think  the  first  was  Mr 
Edison’s.  Can  you  swear  positively  that  you  never 

heard  of  an  electric  railway  before  that  of  Mr.  Edi- 

ingVmiy 2™';  bUt  1  <1C  tlG  ieml  11 

A.  I  think  it  was  in  February,  1830. 

AfX'2'JW,i'  Ho"'  "'ere  you  paid  for  your  work  for 
Mr:  EIllson  :lt  Menlo  Park-in  stock  or  money? 

A.  In  money.  J 

1A|';‘  r°“  «*,  or  have  you  la. 

U'  KK.1XS  *> 

A.  I  am  a  holder  of  stock. 

x-Q.  348.  Please  examine  Edison’s  Exhibit  \o  * 
nnd  stale  whether  tl»  art. 

*•’  „"ele  "’ntten  after  the  words  “Mav  isth 

1Si9,  and  if  yes,  how  long  after? 

Counsel  for  Edison  objects  to  anv  question 
ouclnng  the  exhibits  introduced  during  the  : 
testimony  of  this  witness,  upon  the  ground 
that  he  has  been  already  cross-examined  at 
length  in  regard  to  each  one  of  them,  and 
gives  notice  that  at  the  hearing  he  will  move 
to  strike  out  all  further  questions  and  an- 
exhibits><>n  0I'°ss'examinatio11  touching  these 

A.  I  suppose  they  were  written  after,  but  can’t 
tell  how  long.  They  may  have  been  written  im-  2 
mediately  after  with  another  pencil. 

13t22„Can  -V°!i  eXplain  'Vhy  the  words  “May 


pressure  on  the  pencil,  and  the 
way,  J.  K.”  with  what  appeals 

ords  “Elec,  tram- 
1  me  to  be  a  heavy' 

tior>anle  °'Jject’on  to  tll,s  25  t°  previous  ques- 
A.  I  suppose  it  was  this  way:  first,  I  dated  them 


Jolm  Kri 

277  all,  and  afterward,  before  laying  them  away,  I 
marked  them  what  they  are,  and  signed  them. 

.  x-Q.  350.  Can  you  explain  why  the  final  “y  ”  in 
'the  word  “tramway”  in  Exhibits  1,  2,  3,  4 and  5, 

s  a  straight  heavy  down  stroke,  while  the  final 
letter  “y”  in  the  word  “May”  in  Exhibits  1,  2,  3, 
4  and  5,  is  a  loop? 

Samo  objection. 

A.  It  is  this  difference  which  you  mention  in  your 

278  cpiestion  which  leads  me  to  think  that  I  dnted  them 
all  first  and  marked  and  signed  them  all  afterward 
in  haste,  which  also  explains  to  me  the  err  or  I  made 
in  one  in  marking  it  first  “E.  L.,”and  then  erasing 
it  and  nun-king  it  with  other  words  instead. 

x-Q.  351.  How  long  after  you  dated  them  then 
did  you  mark  and  sign  them? 

Same  objection. 

A.  I  cannot  say  exactly  how  long  it  was,  but  X 
think  it  was  the  same  day  when  I  put  them  away 
J  in  the  drawers. 

x-Q.  352.  What  day  was  that? 

Same  objection. 

A.  The  day  of  the  date  they  bear. 

(i  x-Q.  353.  How  are  you  in  the  habit  of  writing 
“y,”  by  direct  down  stroke  of  the  pen  as  shown  in 
the  final  letter  of  “tramway”  in  Exhibits  I,  2,  3, 
4  and  5,  or  with  a  loop  as  shown  in  the  final  letter 
of  the  word  “  May  ”  in  each  of  the  Exhibits  1,2  3 
280  4  and  5.  ’ 

Same  objection. 

A.  In  writing  fast  I  generally  make  just  the 
down  stroke. 

x-Q.  354.  I  understand  then  that  in  writing  the 
word  “tramway  ”  you  were  writing  fast? 

Same  objection. 

A.  I  conclude  the  same  way. 

x-Q.  355.  Have  j'ou  any  other  reason  to  give  why 

the  down  stroke  in  the  final  letter  of  the  word 
en  h -  M  0Uld  1,6  a  StlaiSht  Iille-  and  why 
a  loop? J  m  t  lU  WOnt  “  JIay  ”  s,louW  formed  with 

Same  objection. 

A.  I  have  this  reason:  that  writing  in  English 
was  at  that  time  comparatively  new  to  me;  that  is 
I  had  not  had  much  of  it  to  do  previously,  and  I 
changed  the  shape  of  letters  very  often. 

.f  S'  Pleaso  examine  Exhibit  No.  S.  and  state 

whether  any  model  or  working  machine  was  ever 
constructed  m  accordance  with  that  drawing, 
intr  fn  l?Ie  "  working  machine  made  accord- 
mg  to  tins  drawing;  hut  as  to  whether  a  model  was 
made  I  am  not  quite  sure. 

x-Q.  357  Flease  examine  Exhibit  No.  10,  and 
state  whether  a  model  or  working  machine  was 
f  m?de  flom  the  drawing  there  illustrated. 

-  .  there  was  no  working  machine  made,  but  I 
am  not  sure  about  the  model. 

x-Q.  35S.  Please  examine  Exhibit  No.  11  and  J 
state  whether  any  working  machine  or  model  was 
ever  made  from  the  drawing  therein? 

A.  There  was  no  working  machine.  Iam  not 
#sure  whether  a  model  was  made  or  not. 

x-Q.  359  When  were  the  fi  1  ld6i 

fro.m  w’Jnch  a  working  machine  was  constructed? 

A.  I  think  in  February  or  March,  1SS0. 
x-Q.  360.  Who  made  that  drawing? 

A.  Mr.  Hornig. 

x-Q.  361.  When  did  you  first  see  a  dynamo  elec-  21 
trie  machine  substantially  similar  to  the  one  which 
you  have  illustrated  in  Exhibits  S,  10  and  11? 

A.  About  April,  1SS0. 

x-Q.  302.  Where  did  you  see  that  dynamo  electric 

A.  In  Mr.  Edison’s  machine  shop  at  Menlo  Park. 
x-Q  363.  How  was  the  armature  of  that  machine 

A.  Substantially  the  same  as  they  are  now  in  the 

Jelin  Km 

286  same  size  of  machines  of  Mr.  Edison’s  construe* 

x-Q.  364.  Was  that  the  first  dynamo  electric  ma¬ 
chine  Mr.  Ellison  ever  constructed! 

A.  No,  sir,  we  had  built  a  great  number  before. 
x-Q.  365.  Do  you  understand  the  construction  and 
operation  of  the  dynamo  electric  machine  which  you 
have  illustrated  in  Exhibits  8,  10  and  11? 

A.  Yes,  I  have  a  general  knowledge  of  it. 

Pfifi  ti  X'« f  °'  W1'at  u'f tlle  ol,J'ect  of  having  the  part  of 
-286  the  field  magnet  witlnn  which  the  armature  revolved 
of  curvilinear  form? 

A'  ^1)e  object  is  to  have  the  armature  as  near  to 
the  field  of  force  as  possible, 
i  If  d>'nam°  electric  machines  were  made 

.  by  Mr.  Edison  before  April,  1SS0,  how  was  it  that 
you  did  not  see  them? 

A  I  understand  question  361  to  refer  to  dynamo 
electric  machines  constructed  and  used  as  an  elec 
trie  locomotive. 

287  fiawf'  Is  the  armature  which  revolves  in  the 
field  of  force  as  illustrated  by  you  in  Exhibit  S  en¬ 
tirely  covered  with  insulated  wire! 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  309.  No  conductor  of  electricity  is  shown  as 
connecting  the  commutator  and  other  parts  of  the- 
machine  in  Exhibit  No.  S,  is  it! 

thp'wlumi  f  °  of  ins,»Iating  the  flange  of 

288  and  n|  is  it?™  fa  shown  in  Exhibits  s-  W 

A-  No,  there  is  none  shown 
A.  No,  it  isn’t  shown. 

Johx  Kruesi. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

Thomas  A.  Edison,  a  witness  produced  in  his  own  289 
behalf,  testifies  mi  oath  as  follows,  in  answer  to 
questions,  proposed  to  him  by  George  W.  Dyer 
counsel  for  Edison :  }  ’ 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 

A.  Thomas  A.  Edison;  age,  35;  residence,  Menlo 
rark,  N.  J. ;  occupation,  inventor. 

Q.  2.  When  did  you  first  see  or  hear  of  any  kind 
of  an  electric  railway? 

A.  About  twenty-seven  years  ago  when  I  was  a  290 
small  boy,  I  saw  a  circular  electric  railway  at  a  lec¬ 
ture.  Tlie  track  was  on  a  large  table  and  was  con¬ 
nected  to  a  battery  which  supplied  current  to  the 
rails.  A  small  electric  locomotive  ran  on  these  rails 
and  ran  around  the  track  with  great  velocity.  This 
was  in  Milan,  Ohio. 

Q.  3.  When  did  you  first  make  or  attempt  to 
make  any  sort  of  an  electric  railway! 

Counsel  for  Field  calls  attention  to  the  fact 
that  the  witness  calls  for  his  preliminary  291 
statement,  and  examines  the  same  before 
answering  the  question. 

A.  In  the  winter  of  1S72-73,  I  conceived  the  idea 
of  carrying  messages  by  means  of  an  electro-motor 
running  on  telegraph  wires  which  were  to  be  the 
rails  for  the  motor  as  well  as  the  means  for  conduct¬ 
ing  electricity  to  the  motor.  I  also  tried  practically 
running  a  small  motor  on  two  stretched  wires  in  my 
jaboratoiy,  which  was  about  January  or  February,  292 

Latter  part  of  answer  objected  to  as  incon¬ 
sistent  with  witness’s  preliminary  statement. 

Q.  4.  At  that  date  what  information,  experience 
and  knowledge  did  you  have  of  what  you  would 
now  regard  as  the  essential  elements  of  an  electric 
railway.  Please  make  your  answer  a  little  in  de¬ 

A.  I  had  run  on  a  railway  as  a  newsboy  nearly 
every  day  for  four  years;  hail  been  a  telegraph  op- 

1  homas  A.  Edison. 

293  *****  and  worked  on  various  railways;  and  ‘in  l*T> 
netn  if  VVaS  fa",,iIiai'  w,th  doctro-mbton,  and  mag¬ 
neto  electnc  machines,  and  all  that  was  essential  To 
uev  ise  an  electnc  railway. 

ieS  nf  neX1t  tU,'ned  J'0U1' attention  to  the  suh- 

ject  of  electric  railways,  and  when  was  it; 

A.  In  July  and  August,  1 8 Vs,  I  went  out  to  San 
Francisco  and  returned,  and  in  passing  over  the 
State  of  Iowa,  I  conceived  the  idea  that  if  an  elec 

m  it  wSd°be  Lf°Ultl  'I0  "1,a,1°  01,1  te  «■  oi  o  lly 

2M  it  w  ould  be  of  great  value  for  drawing  grain  to  the 

econonn°Tf  ,-lilr0“'1  aIld  t,llls  L‘xt«”d  the  radius  of 

economical  gram  production;  and  when  I  had  re 

urned  to  Menlo  Park  in  the  latter  end  of  August 

*«3,srr“i . . . 

**  ‘i»»oithe,ryaovlra,v”;it:,s,‘l 

of  Mm’  Hfd  y°U  at  tluit  timu  8tu,lied  out  the  details 
of  the  system  so  completely  that  you  could  I  n  -  . 

s»ti ucted  an  operative  electrical  railway? 

Question  objected  to  as  suggestive  aiul 
leading  by  counsel  for  Field  and  for  Siemens 

2*  outfox  ah'eady  tB8tiflcd  that  1  M  studied  it 


Question  objected  to  as  loading  by  counsel 
for  Siemens  and  for  Field  y  t0Ullsel 


Which  I  thought  applicable  to  the  pm-p^  '  ™  fefr 
have  already  testified  to.  mpo-t,  w inch  I 

A.  In  February  or  March,  1ST9,  I  asked  Mr.  G. 

I  ■  Lowrey,  who  was  then  one  of  the  largest  stock 

co,  1 1  nof  tl?jfiS°n  EleCtHc  LiSht  Company,  ifhe 
could  not  get  the  company  to  put  up  the  money  to 
construct  an  electrical  railway  at  Mmlo  Park,  as  I 
ha, 1  then  m  my  experimenting  with  electric  lighting 
pioiluced  a  very  economical  dynamo  machine  and 

and  Mvm' T  T  n°  r?pKBd  that  ifc  would  be  no  use, 

;!*  1  S'10",d  6,vo  m>-  whole  time  toward  the  «q9 
pei lection  of  the  electric  light.  I,  however,  con-  / 

turned  to  figure  and  make  various  calculations  more 
relating  to  the  economical  part  of  the  railway  than 
to  the  technical  part,  and  in  May,  1S7U,  I  had  work¬ 
ing  drawings  made  of  an  electric  locomotive  and 
S  n  "T1  aS  mo?L‘ls  of  a  turtle  work  upon 

which  the  electric  railway  was  to  be  built.  Icon- 

turned  experimenting  on  inci  easing  the  economy  of 
transferring  horse  power  into  electricity  by  means  of 
dynamo  machines,  and  reconverting  the  same  hack  300 
into  power  by  means  of  dynamo  machines  used  as 
electro  motors.  I  determined  to  construct  the  rail¬ 
way  the  first  chance  I  could  get  the  money  to  do  so 
In  February,  18S0, 1  had  obtained  money  of  my  own 
amounting  to  about  15,000  dollars,  and  I  imme¬ 
diately,  m  February,  1SS0,  commenced  the  con¬ 
struction  of  an  electric  railway  and  appliances  at 
Menlo  Park.  Such  road  was  three-quarters  of  a 
mile  long.  The  railroad  and  locomotive  and  ap¬ 
pliances  were  completed  in  May,  ISSO,  and  was  sue- 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

801  cessfully  operated  at  that  time, and  has  been  operated 
successfully  many  times  since,  and  I  think  as  many 
as  5,000  people  have  ridden  over  it. 

Counsel  for  Field  calls  attention  to  the  fact 
that  this  answer  was  made  after  the  witness 
had  again  consulted  his  preliminary  statement 
and  various  account  books. 

Q.  11.  I  call  yonr  attention  to  the  issues  presented 
by  the  Patent  Office  in  this  interference,  which  read  as 

302  follows:  “I.  In  an  electric  railway  the  combination 
of  one  or  more  stationary  dynamo  electric  machines 
with  conductors  extending  along  the  whole  line 
and  formed  partly  or  wholly  by  the  rails  themselves, 
on  which  rails  are  vehicles  having  dynamo  electric 
machines  fixed  thereon  for  imparting  motion  there¬ 
to,  the  electrical  connection  between  said  last- 
named  dynamo  electric  machines  and  the  station¬ 
ary  dynamo  electric  machine  being  maintained 
continuously  by  the  wheels  of  tl.e  vehicle. with  or 

303  'Vltll0ut  tlie  aid  of  contact  rollers,  sprints  or 

brushes.  ‘ 

“  n.  Ill  an  electric  railway  the  combination  of 
one  or  more  stationary  dynamo  electric  generator 
driven  by  suitable  power.  c  d  ct  g  c  c  t 
formed  wholly  or  in  part  of  suitably  insulated  lines 
of  rails;  a  wheeled  vehicle  adapted  to 'move  on  said 
rails,  and  having  one  or  more  electro  dynamic 
motors  impelling  the  same,  one  pole  of  said  motor 
being  in  electrical  connection  with  a  stationary  gen- 
m  orator  through  one  line  of  conduct*,  w,  and  the  other 
electrically  connected  with  the  other  line  of  conduc- 
tora,  for  completing  the  circuit  through  the  station- 
aiy  generator.”  When  did  yon  conceive  the  par¬ 
ticular  invention  set  forth  in  these  issues? 

Objected  to  by  counsel  for  Siemens,  and 
counsel  for  Field  as  leading. 

A.  In  July,  1878. 

Q.  12.  When,  if  ever,  did  you  impart  to  others 
your  conception  of  these  particular  inventions  in  is- 

t.  Edison. 

A.  In  August,  1S7S.  305 

Q.  1.1.  When,  if  ever,  did  you  produce  or  cause  to 
he  produced  sketches  of  these  particular  inventions 

A.  I  made  some  sketches  in  September,  1S7S. 

Q.  14.  Have  you  preserved  them;  if  not  what  has 
become  of  them? 

A.  I  have  been  unable  to  find  them. 

Q.  15.  What  are  the  earliest  sketches  which  you 
have  been  able  to  find  relating  to  the  matter  in  con¬ 
troversy?  _  300 

A.  Exhibits  Nos.  1,  2,  3,  4,  5,  (i,  7,  8,  9,  10  and 

Q.  10.  Please  examine  Exhibits  1  to  7  inclusive, 
and  state,  if  you  know,  who  made  them,  and  when 
each  was  made? 

A.  The  sketches  were  made  by  me.  The  datesand 
words  “  Electric  tramway  ”  were  made  by  Mr. 

Q.  17.  Please  examine  the  sketches  S  to  H  inclu¬ 
sive,  state  by  whom  they  were  made,  if  you  know,  307 
and  when? 

A.  The  sketches  8,  9,  10  and  11  were  made  by  Mr. 
Kruesi,  at  the  date  marked  on  them,  or  within  one 
day  of  that  date.  In  Exhibit  No.  9  the  words  “Elec¬ 
tric  tramway  ”  are  in  my  writing,  and  I  am  not  sure 
as  to  whose  sketch— whether  mine  orKruesi’s— it  is. 
which  is  shown  on  the  exhibit. The  figures  and  writ- 
ting,  however,  except  iif  the  instance  I  mentioned, 
are  Mr.  Kruesi’s. 

Q.  IS.  State,  if  you  know,  whether  or  not  these 
exhibits  were  made  under  the  direction  of  any  per¬ 
son,  and  if  so,  what  person? 

A.  They  were  made  under  my  direction  by  Mr. 

Q.  19.  Please  examine  sketches  1  to  7  inclusive 
and  state  what  invention  is  illustrated  in  each  of 

A.  No.  1  represents  a  motor  driven  by  a  dynamo 
machine,  the  motor  being  provided  with  a  governor 
combined  with  circuit  breaking  devices  of  peculiar 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 


309  construction,  whereby  tlie  great  spark  due  to  the 
breaking  of  the  electric  circuit  could  bo  greatly  re¬ 
duced  by  breaking  the  circuit  at  a  multiplicity  of 
points  simultaneously. This  was  to  be  used  on  thelloco- 
motive,  and  some  time  previous  to  the  making  of  this 
sketch,  this  device,  working  on  this  principle,  was 
made  and  tried  and  found  to  work  satisfactorily.  The 
levers  of  several  sounders  were  used  in  place  of  the 
spring  contacts,  D,  shown  in  the  Exhibit  No.  l.  The 
words  reversible  commutator”  refer  to  reversing 

310  the  position  of  the  brushes  on  the  commutator,  so 
as  to  permit  the  motor  running  in  either  direction. 
The  word  governor”  refers  to  a  governor  which 
was  to  be  placed  oh  the  motor.  The  words  “open 
the  circuit  lever”  refer  to  a  lever  for  opening  the  cir¬ 
cuit  entirely.  In  Exhibit  No.  2,  A  is  meant  for  an 
electric  locomotive;  B,  a  car  drawn  by  the  same- 
both  A  and  B  running  on  rails;  C,  a  trestle’ 

.  k’  “p°n  wIllel>  Me  rails  are  placed;  D,  a  top 

311  IT  the  trestle  work;  and  E,  a  portion  of  the 
311  governor  on  the  locomotive.  No.  3  shows  a  sketch 

shows  °i"’°rk  With  rails  °M  toP-  Ex,libit  No.  ^ 
-shows  a  dynamo  or  magneto  electric  machines  con- 
liected  m  multiple  arc,  and  placed  at  the  station  and 
acting  to  supply  electricity  to  the  system.  On  the 
connecte<l  to  the  dynamo  system  on  the 
eft  is  a  circuit  revei-smg  switch,  whereby  the  di- 
lection  of  Hie  flow  of  the  current  in  a  certain  section 
t*ie  track  near  the  station  may  be  changed.  The 
3lo  ^m  of  dynamos  on  the  right  was  connected  to 
31-  another  section  of  the  track,  and  provided  with  a 
circuit  reversing  lever  as  implied  by  the  words 
“same  here.”  Exhibit  No.  a  shows  a  dynamo  or 

date  "and  ane!  ,  *!'  a.cb  ‘ 1 1  e  top  nearest  the 

date,  and  an  electric  locomotive  on  a  track  under¬ 
neath  the  first  sketch.  Exhibit  No  7  shows  a  com 
munication  between  two  stations  of  an  electric  rail 

no  nfbo  m<?a?S  °5  t®lephol,es-  the  cb'cuit  being  made 
up  of  one  side  of  the  track  and  the  earth.  Exhibit 
No.  C  shows  a  station  with  a  side-track  for  crossing 
trains,  wind  power  being  utilized  to  drive  the  dyn 


Tliomos  A.  Edison. 

switches  being  arranged  at  both  ends  of  the  side 
ti  ack.  .Such  switches  being  operated  by  magnet  ism 
produced  by  electricity  sent  oier  wires  leading  from 
the  station,  as  shown  on  the  right  and  left.  On  the 

gl.t  hand  side  on  the  track  that  passes  nearest  to 
the  station,  are  shown  an  electric  locomotive  and 
two  cars  loaded  with  bags  of  wheat.  The  track 
furtherest  from  the  station  is  the  side  track. 

Iho  sketch  immediately  under  the  station  rep- 
resents  a  section  of  trestle  work.  The  two  3 li 
sketches  on  the  right  are  telephones.  The  sketch 
was  made  by  me.  The  figures  underneath  the  tres¬ 
tle  work  sketch  at  the  bottom  of  the  exhibit,  as  well 
as  the  words  “per  mile,”  were  made  by  me.  The 
figures  were  some  calculations  as  to  the  cost  per 
mile  of  electric  tramway. 

Q.  20.  Please  explain  Exhibit  No.  9,  and  state  if 
you  remember  the  circumstances  under  which  it 
.  was  made. 

A.  Exhibit  No.  9  shows  some  figures  as  to  the  313 
cost  of  electric  railway.  These  figures  were  made 
by  Mr.  Kruesi,  w-ho  had  instructions  to  ascertain  the 
cost  and  to  arrange  the  materials  to  the  best  propor- 
tion  to  obtain  reliability  and  initial  economy  of  in- 

Q.  21.  Please  explain  Exhibit  No.  S,  and  tell  what 
it  is,  and  what  it  illustrates? 

A  The  exhibit  represents  an  electric  railway  with 
an  electric  locomotive  and  a  loaded  car,  drawn  oil  a 
scale  of  one  inch  per  foot.  The  sketch  on  the  left  316 
is  an  end  view  of  a  locomotive  and  trestle  and  track, 
and  electrical  conductor,  F,  F.  The  sketch  on  the 
right  illustrates  a  side  view  of  the  locomotive  and  a 
loaded  car  as  well  as  the  trestle. 

Q.  22.  Please  explain  Exhibit  No.  10;  state  how 
the  same  compares  with  the  left-hand  figure  of  Ex¬ 
hibit  No.  S? 

A.  The  sketch  shown  in  Exhibit  No.  10  is  the 
same  as  the  left-hand  figure  of  Exhibit  No  S  ex¬ 
cept  that  it  is  drawn  on  a  scale  of  two  inches  to 
the  foot. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

817  Q.  23.  Please  examine  Exhibit  No.  1 1,  and  explain 
the  same  fully  and  in  detail,  including  the  mode  of 

A.  The  sketch  is  a  front  view  of  an  electric  loco¬ 
motive,  the  governor  being  horizontal  instead  of 
perpendicular  as  in  Exhibit  No.  8,  and  the  extra 
copper  conductors  being  dispensed  wit  h  and  ordinary 
rails  used,  both  for  conveying  the  currant  and  for 
traction.  I  notice  in  the  sketch  that  some  changes 
have  been  made  which  do  not  belong  to  the  drawing 

818  proper,  such  as  the  faint  outlining  of  the  upright 
governor  shown  in  the  left-hand  figure  of  Exhibit 
No.  8,  and  also  of  the  addition  of  devices  for  taking 
the  current  off  from  a  copper  conductor,  and  also 
an  alteration  on  the  left-hand  side  of  the  drawing, 
of  the  top  of  the  rail.  Whether  the  drawing  was 
drawn  over  a  light  sketch  and  these  devices  just 
described  not  rubbed  out,  or  whether  they  were 
made  to  explain  the  difference  between  one  way 
and  another  of  taking  off  the  current  to  some 

319  person,  I  cannot  say.  I  believe  that  these  extra 
marks  were  made  when  explaining  the  drawing  to 
some  person,  whom  I  cannot  now  remember. 

By  consent  the  taking  of  further  testimony 
was  postponed  to  Tuesday,  November  22, 
18S1,  at  same  place  and  time. 

Wm.  H.  Mkadowckoft, 

Notary  Public, 

New  York  Co. 

820  _ 

Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  taking  of  testimony 
was  continued  on  Tuesday,  November  22,  1881,  the 
same  counsel  being  present. 

Q.  21.  At  the  date  of  that  sketch  or  drawing  of 
Exhibit  No.  11,  what  provision,  if  any,  had  yon 
made  for  a  continuous  electric  conducting  rail,  or 
for  making  the  rail  continuous!. 

A.  I  proposed  to  use  copper  strips  beneath  the  fish 
plate  connecting  one  rail  with  the  other. 

Thomas  A.  Edison.  SI 

von  !!n,At  t]le,same  date  "’hat  means,  if  any  had 

K7°“" rev'™''Vti!“5ta,  ''t  Z i  “ 

T?ZV"‘  T”'™ »» S* ' 

CSSS  2*  “  -  '»■">  brataSS 

oc  sufficent  for  my  purposes  at  the  time. 

*•  f '  ,  ^e  date  mentioned  what  means  if 
selmT  y°U  deViS°d  f°r  lllsilh'iting  the  rails  ttem- 

S±J  f'1<,d  “nce,v?d  the  i,lea  insulating  the 

spikes  from  the  rail,  and  also  japanning  the  whole 

of  the  rail  except  the  top  ;  also  immeraing  he  ends 
O  on  Iw?"  insulatinS  substance.  6 
y-  -•>.  At  the  same  date  how  far  had  von  n,-n 
gressed  in  the  production  of  commerciallv  economic 
dynamo-electric  machines  ?  economic 

A  I  had  made  an  enormous  number  of  exneri 
meu's  from  1STS  up  to  the  date  mentioned  on  the' 
elecJro  rf  e,C°nomical  dynamo  machine  aid 

Q.  30  What,  if  anything,  was  done  by  you  at 
about  that  date  in  the  making  of  models  or  wm-king 
parts  connected  with  your  system  of  electric  rail 

A-  I  had  madethe models,  Exhibits  12, 13,  andU 
q.  31.  Do  you  remember  anything  else  ? 

8-  Thomas  A.  Edison. 

825  A.  I  was  making  and  conducting  experiments  o" 
electric  motors  and  dynamo  machines. 

Q.  32.  I  wish  3'ou  would  look  at  the  papers  which 
are  pasted  on  each  of  the  Exhibits  12,  13,  and  14 
and  state  if  you  recognize  the  handwriting  and 
signatures  upon  the  same,  and  if  so  whose  hand¬ 
writing  and  whose  signatures  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  writing  is  that  of  Charles  Bach- 
eloi  ;  it  is  witnessed  by  himself  and  John  Kruesi. 

_  ,  Y  33'  Wllat  elation  towards  you  did  Mr.  Bache- 

326  lor  have  at  that  date,  and  where  is  lie  now  ? 

A.  Mr  Bachelor  was  my  principal  assistant ;  he 
is  now  at  the  Paris  Exposition  of  Electricity 
Q.  34.  What  reason,  if  any,  did  you  have  at  that 
date  for  not  immediately  carrying  your  plan  into 
operation  in  the  construction  of  a  working  electri- 
cal  railway?  b 

A.  I  hadn’t  the  money  to  conduct  such  an  expen¬ 
sive  experiment. 

39-  1Wlle,n  di(1  y°u  hear  that  Mr.  S.  D. 

S2i  Field  had  made  any  invention  in  electric  railways  ? 

lean  t  i1  patf‘^  issued  to  Ilil11  some  time  in 
18S0.  I  will  furnish  the  date  afterward 
,„9‘  30-  ,))rileu  did  you  first  hear  that  Mr.  Ernst 
electric'ra'nway  ?  *"*  ',r°dUCed  0P  w“  I>™d»cing  an 
A.  I  think  about  August,  lssn,  hut  I  may  be 
mistaken.  I  will  hunt  the  matter  up  further. 

Counsel  for  Field  and  for  Siemens  call  at- 

82£  tention  to  the  fact  that  the  witness  answers 

this  and  the  previous  question  only  after  a 
lengthy  examination  of  scrap  hooks. 

Q.  37.  When  did  you  first  hear  that  Mr.  Siemens 
S**™* attenh0"  to  tl10  subject  of  electric  rail¬ 
road.  1  think  ab°Ut  thoti,no  tl,at  1  building  my 
Q.  3S.  At  about  what  date,  as  hear  as  vou  can 
member,  did  you  begin  preparations  few  filing  a* 
application  for  a  patent  for  your  electric  railway? 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

the  c 

r£,: “S?  01'  Apri1’  'SSn;  ft  might  have  been 

whenever  Bnd  Fieid  ''^est  that 

or  five/  l -  i f  refreshes  his  memory 
scran  book  63  by  Wlitten  memoranda! 
scrap  books  or  any  paper  whatever,  the  fact 
of  Ins  so-domg  shall  be  noted  on  the  record. 


clusn  e;  please  answer  in  detail? 

Counsel  for  Siemens  and  for  Field  object  to 
the  question  because  the  drawings  themselves 
the  n,d  Sf’ -0"’  "’h“t  is  souSht  to  be  elicited  by 
thequpstion  without  any  explanations  by  the 

A  The  automatic  switch  for  crossing  trains 
illustrated  in  Exhibit  No.  0  and  in  feuim  n 

tion,  as  well  S  M  ?a^d  M  r  ‘  f  °f  th<3  app,ica- 

wheels  in  fl?  .  ?nnected  dil-ect  to  the  driving 
up' '  «■  * 

show!' in  V1'  0n°?f  tbe  functions  lever 

shown  in  figure  a  is  the  same  as  that  shown  in  Ex- 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

888  hibit  No.  1,  marked  C.  The  dynamo  B  in  figure  I 
of  the  application  is  represented  hy  the  dynamo  B 
in  Exhibit  No.  1.  The  side  track  S\v.  in  figure  1  of 
the  application  is  represented  in  Exhibit  No.  (S,  be¬ 
ing  the  track  furtherest  from  the  front  of  the  sta¬ 

Q.  41.  State  whether  or  not  you  find  in  the  draw¬ 
ings  of  the  application,  as  well  as  in  the  exhibits 
mentioned,  a  central  station  from  which  electricity 
834  1S  C0Ilducted  to  tlle  I'Jiils  of  a  railway? 

Same  objection  as  to  previous  question  bv 
both  counsel. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q- 4--  flense  examine  the  application  of  S.  D. 
inekl  in  this  interference,  together  with  the  draw¬ 
ings  attached  thereto,  a  certified  copy  of  which  is 
now  handed  you,  and  compare  the  same  with  the 
inventions  illustrated  in  your  Exhibits  1  to  11  inclu¬ 
sive,  and  state  wherein  or  in  what  respect,  if  anv 
885  said  invention  of  Field  shows  an  advance  over  the 
invention  illustrated  in  your  said  exhibits,  and  in 
what  respect,  if  any,  your  said  exhibits  show  an  ad¬ 
vance  over  said  inventions  of  said  Field,  as  illus- 
trated  in  the  drawings  of  his  said  application? 

Question  objected  to  by  counsel  for  Siemens 
and  for  Field  as  incompetent. 

f  f  Exbibit  f°- 4  shown  sections  of  a  track 
fed  with  current  by  dynamo  machines,  while  in 
figure  of  Field’s  application  a  dynamo  machine 
supplies  current  to  an  insulated  strap  and  to  a  box 
and  one  rail  connected  to  the  earth.  The  method 
of  connectmg  the  sections  of  the  track  I  do  not 
mid  m  these  diagrams,  neither  do  I  find  where  he 
connected  the  two  poles  of  the  stationao' dynanio 

of  taSna  offth  sfoiminSt,1,e  t'ack.  His  method 
ot  taking  off  the  current  by  means  of  a  stran  i» 
sulated  from  the  traction  rails  is  similar  to  that 

orconductof  Exhibit  Na  10>  except  that  my  straps 
•  01  C01lductors  were  arranged  to  obtain  better  insu- 

ThomasA.  Edis 

lation.  Both  myself  and  Mr.  Field  show  a  mobile  337 
electro  motor  running  on  a  track  as  in  my  E« 

Figures  o’  l  and  "“l8*  a”d  in.Field’s  application, 
f  igures  3  and  ;>.  The  direction  of  the  current 
through  the  dynamo  is  changed  by  reversing  the 

nko'inTZ  ,b-USheS  by  Mr-  Field-  This  method  is 
also  indicated  m  my  Exhibit  No.  1.  The  circuit  to 

lever  fmT  «  "  '  by  disconnecting  the  contact 

leiei  fiom  the  stnp  on  the  road-bed  by  Mr  Field 
In  my  case  the  circuit  is  opened  on  the  motor  itself 
m  the  ordinary  manner,  as  indicated  on  Exhibit  338 
tV’  Exhibit  No.  11  the  track  itself  wa 

to  be  used  both  for  conveying  the  cui-rent  and  for 
tiaction,  and  the  wheels  were  to  have  their  rims  in- 
sulated  from  the  hubs.  In  Mr.  Field’s  application 
the  t  ^k1?ntSeriS  t°J-?e  ,nade  or  "^"nation  that 
-k  t0  b(;  used  both  for  conducting  the  elec- 
tiicity  to  the  motor  and  for  traction  purposes.  No 
attempt  at  insulating  the  traction  rails  is  apparent 
fci  my  opinion  the  method  shown  in  Mr.  Field’s  ap- 
Si1011  ,°V  C°nVeying  the  0U1Tent  to  the  motor  339 
Is  to  d":?r.k,r,ery  "satisfactorily  in  practice,  both 
M  VvJ  ,ltyand  economy-  I  do  not  see  that 
Mr.  Field  shows  in  his  application  any  advance  over 
the  methods  and  the  system  indicated  in  my  Ex- 

SS5J&ST ,ta  1  th” 

The  objection  to  the  question  is  renewed  as 
to  the  answer,  and  notice  of  motion  is  given 
to  strike  the  same  out  as' utterly  incompe¬ 
tent,  and  in  view  of  the  relations  of  the  wit-  340 

ness  to  the  subject  matter  of  his  testimony 
as  absurd. 

Q-  43-  P°  you  find  any  provision  in  Mr.  Field’s 
said  application  for  one  train  passing  another,  and 
in  that  respect  does  it  differ  from  the  inventions 
illustrated  in  your  exhibits? 

Counsel  for.  Siemens  and  Field  object  to 
this  question  as  immaterial,  incompetent  and 
having  no  relation  to  the  subject 'matter! 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

tx  ii*  J  niKaus  niuicaiea  in  .Mr. 

Jneld  s  application  for  crossing  trains,  and  it  differs 
in  that  respect  from  my  exhibits. 

Q.  44.  Question  42  is  repeated  as  applied  to  the 
invention  of  Mr.  Siemens,  as  shown  and  illustrated 
m  his  pending  application  in  this  interference  a 
certified  copy  of  which  is  now  handed  you. 

Objected  to  by  counsel  for  Siemens,  be¬ 
cause  Mr.  Edison  is  an  interested  party  to  this 
i  interference,  and  the  answer  sought  to  be 

842  answer  sougnt  to  De 

elicited  would  obviously  be  in  the  nature  of 
an  argument  coming  from  an  interested 
party,  or  a  scientific  opinion  from  an  expert 
who  is  interested  in  the  decision  of  this  in¬ 

A.  I  have  made  the  comparison  and  find  that 
generally,  everything  shown  in  Mr.  Siemens’  ap- 
plication  is  indicated  in  my  Exhibits  1  to  11,  but  I 
do  not  find  any  means  for  stopping  the  train  elec- 
343  trically ;  neither  do  I  find  any  means  for  reversing  the 
direction  of  the  train,  electrically;  neither  do  I  find 
means  for  governing  the  speed  of  the  train;  neither 
do  I  find  means  for  permitting  the  crossing  of  trains; 
.Neither  do  I  find  ordinary  railroad  axles  with  their 
wheels  insulated  from  the  axle,  in  Mr.  Siemens’  ap- 
plication,  while  intended  and  indicated  in  mv  Ex¬ 
hibits  1  to  11. 

I  also  find  in  Mr.  Siemens’  application  methods 
of  carrying  the  current  to  the  mobile  motor  by  con- 
844  ductors  other  than  the  rails,  substantially  as^  indi¬ 
cated  m  my  Exhibits  1  to  11;  and  I  do  not  find  that 
the  system  described  by  Mr.  Siemens  is  as  far  ad¬ 
vanced  as  that  indicated  in  my  Exhibits  1  toll 
basing  this  affirmation  upon  the  results  of  later  ex’ 

-  A'1*)'’.er  objocted  to  by  counsel  for  Siemens, 
m  addition  to  the  objections  last  entered,  that 
the  answer  of  Mr.  Edison  is  irrelevant  as  it 
relates  to  matters  not  involved  in  this  inter¬ 
ference,  but  to  mattera  involved  in  Air 

is  A.  Edison. 

Edison  s  application,  which  the  office  has  not  w 
put  in  interference. 

reLTif  tt0i I1"1*0  a  fUrther  answer  t0  tlds  question, 

O  H  an  H  '0,,nPilnSOn  I,etWee,‘  "'-V  Exhibits  1 
and  the  application  of  Siemens,  which  is  that 
m  both  cases  trestle  work  is  shown. 

Same  objection,  and  the  latter  part  of  the 
answer  is  further  objected  to  because  no 
trestle  work  is  shown,  or  described  or  claimed 
m  the  application  of  Edison  involved  in  this 
interference,  and  therefore  the  testimony  in  346 
relation  thereto  by  Mr.  Edison  is  immaterial. 

Q.  45.  When  did  you  set  about  building  your 
electric  railway  at  Menlo  Park,  and  why  did 'you 
not  build  it  at  an  earlier  date? 

A.  I  commenced  it  in  February,  1880,  and  finished 
it  in  May,  18S0.  Owing  to  the  large  amount  of 
money  required  to  properly  build  and  test  an  electric 
railway,  I  did  not  succeed  in  obtaining  money  until 
February,  1880,  to  build  the  road.  Had  Ttlie  money  347 
I  would  have  built  it  in  18TS. 

The  last  sentence  of  this  answer  objected  to 
by  counsel  for  Siemens,  as  irresponsive  to  the 

Q.  40.  Give  as  nearly  as  possible  the  dates  of  con¬ 
struction  and  equipment  of  your  railway,  at  differ¬ 
ent  stages  of  progress  toward  completion. 

A.  I  find  by  referring  to  my  memoranda,  that  Mr 
Hornig  directed  the  rails  to  be  ordered  April  2,’  34= 
1SS0;  that  men  commenced  to  work  on  the  roadbed 
April  10,  1SS0;  commenced  laying  the  rails  April  11, 

1SS0;  magnets  of  the  locomotive  and  magnetic 
power  tested  April  28,  1880;  electrical  connection 
made  between  the  station  and  the  rails  of  the  track 
May  11,  1SS0;  electric  locomotive  tested  in  the  shop 
May  12,  1880;  locomotive  run  on  the  track  May  13 

1SS0.  .  J  ’ 

Q.  47.  Please  describe  in  detail  that  railroad,  with 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

pSloT^SSZ™' nt^v° 

each  rad  forming  the  track,  were  led  into  »! 
engine  room,  about  40  ,- f  !nto  t,le 

350  the  end  of  the  track,  the  ends  of  ,?T 



«d  of  on.  mi!  to  the  other  &25Sn"SS*fhfc1S  £* 

locomot".  ”»™  •“»<»»?  in  the  opemtfoo  „(  th, 
>5™“^  »l>en  Unit  pm  „„  th„  tmck 

« “i  Hs  ■ ?r"b* 

the  brass  cylinder  •  then™  l  0n?  *'*le  spider,  to 

magnet  and  to'revei-sinaanil  nf  *  to  the 

ism,  through  the  fieM  m^!TUi'0?emngraechan- 



brush  ;  thence,  through  the  spider,  to  the  rim  of  the 
other  wheel,  down  to  the  rail :  thence  to  the  station, 
through  the  dynamos,  and  back  to  the  other  rail. 

A  governor  was  included  in  the  circuit  of  the  induc¬ 
tion  bobbin.  The  locomotive  was  started  by  closing 
the  circuit,  and  the  direction  which  the  locomotive 
passed  over  the  track  was  controlled  by  reversing 
the  direction  of  the  flow  of  the  current  through  the 
induction  bobbin,  while  the  field  magnet  bad  a  con¬ 
stant  current  flowing  through  it,  which  it  had  at  all 
times  when  the  tracks  were  connected  to  the  dy-  35* 
namos  at  the  station,  and  whether  the  induction 
bobbin  circuit  was  open  or  not.  When  the  locomo¬ 
tive  was  first  designed,  it  was  determined  to  use 
steel  bands ;  afterwards  it  was  determined  to  try 
friction  wheels,  for  connecting  the  rotating  bobbin 
with  the  driving  wheels  of  the  locomotive,  and  fric¬ 
tion  wheels  were  used  the  first  day  we  ran  the  loco¬ 
motive.  The  friction  wheel  broke.  We  then  took 
the  wheels  off,  and  put  on  pulleys,  connecting  the 
driving  shaft  and  the  bobbin  by  leather  belts.  A 
pulley  on  the  bobbin  shaft  of  the  dynamo  machine 
was  connected,  by  means  of  a  belt,  to  a  large  pulley 
on  an  intermediate  shaft.  On  this  intermediate 
shaft  was  another  smaller  pulley,  on  which  was  a 
leather  belt,  running  over  it  and  also  over  a  pulley 
on  the  axle  of  the  main  driving  wheels.  The  fric¬ 
tion  device  was  an  attempt  to  obviate  the  great  loss 
of  power  when  transmitted  through  a  belt  system, 
as  in  electric  railroad  locomotives  the  high  rotating 
speed  of  the  bobbin  must,  in  practice,  be  con-  858 
needed  to  the  driving  mechanism  by  means  of 
some  intermediate  mechanism  for  reducing  speed 
of  actual  rotation,  where  any  considerable  power 
from  such  a  locomotive  is  required.  The  locomo¬ 
tive  was  also  provided  with  a  head  light,  consisting 
of  a  reflector,  in  front  of  which  was  an  incandescent 
electric  lamp,  lighted  by  electricity  derived  from 
connecting  the  terminals  of  the  electric  lamp  to  the 
two  brushes  resting  on  the  spider-connected  contact 
cylinder.  Hand  brakes  were  used.  At  first  a  sin- 

90  Thomas  A.  Edison. 

gle  car, the  same  as  shown  in  the  photograph  which 
I  here  present  was  used,  the  car  being  the  second 
one  from  the  locomotive. 

Q.  48  Is  the  photograph  to  which  you'  have 
called  attention  a  correct  representation  of  the 
track  and  of  the  locomotive  at  the  time  when  belt 
gear  was  substituted  for  friction  gear’ 
taken  off  ^  eXC°Pt  that  the "^riclamp  has  been 

358  Photograph  referred  to  put  in  evidence  -,i„l 

marked  “Edison  Exhibit  No.  15.” 

Q-  41).  How  many  cam  and  of  what  descrintim. 
"T  Onl  "’,th  th°  l0C°m°tiVG  nt  tlle  ^ginning? 
ca^ho  m  hiTS  ."T  at  ?Kt’  boil«  ‘'‘e  mMdle 


SW  *■»«  afterwards  added 

and  of  what  description  and  when?  . 

A.  The  second  car  was  the  same  as  the  first 
except  that  it  had  no  awning  or  seat*?  fm.  *  * 

gere,  but  was  intended  only  for  freight;  I  can't*  nT 
member  when  this  car  was  nut  ti  ,  ,  1  L 

H -as  I  should  say,  a  nionth^fte?  th  railu^’was 
first  operated.  The  third  car  was  a  closed 



operated  one  or  two  days  when  tim-  „ 

by  the  electric  locomotive  °  WaS  draw» 

fact  tha^the  So^ans^r  1™?“™  t0  0,0 
witness  had  conXl^S 


51.  How  long  was 

this  first  friction 


Thomas  A.  Edison. 

ReU«  fl'ic,ti0!’  geai'inS  "’as  worked  but  one  day. 
Belts  were  substituted  I  think  two  days  afterwards 
the  "Sr1?  be",g  m'igi"ally  designed  to,  admit  of 
change,  in  case  the  friction  gearing  did  not 
work  satisfactorily.  S  1 

Q.  52.  How  much  power  were  the  stationary  dv- 
namo  machines  capable  of  producing? 
h,*‘  fTI,le  dynamo  machine  at  (lie  station  was  capa¬ 
ble  of  transferring  twenty  boree  power,  and  the  <sr 
motor  of  the  locomotive  capable  of  exerting  twenty  3 
loo,  -er  with  one  machine  at  the  station,  and 
about  thirty  to  thirty-five  horse  power  when  two 
machines  were  used  at  the  station.  A  speed  of  42 

miles  per  hour,  with  31  persons  on  the  car,  was  ob¬ 
tained,  notwithstanding  the  heavy  grades 
Q.  53.  Is  that  locomotive  in  the  same  condition, 
as  to  construction  and  arrangement  of  parts, that  it 
lias  when  the  belt  gearing  was  put  upon  it? 

thm,k  lt ■  'S  in  nearI-v  tho  same  condition.  3C3 
Theie  may  be  some  extra  holes  drilled  in  the  frame 
by  reason  of  the  substitution  of  worm  and  worm 
wheel  mechanism  for  the  belts.  This  worm  and 
worm  wheel  mechanism  was  afterwards  taken  off 
and  the  belts  put  back. 

Q.  54.  What  was  the  reason  for  substituting  the 

worm  wheel  gear?  b 

A  We  desired  to  run  the  bobbin  of  the  dynamo 
at  full  velocity,  while  the  locomotive  itself  should 
uni  with  extreme  slowness,  so  that  the  mechanical  304 
powei  can  be  multiplied  and  permit  of  the  hauling 
of  heavy  trains  up  inclines. 

Q.  jo.  How  long  was  this  worm  wheel  gear  used 
and  what  became  of  it? 

A.  I  think  it  was  only  used  a  few  days,  and  the 
parts,  I  believe,  meat  Menlo  Park. 

Q.  50.  What  change,  if  any,  was  required  in  the 
locomotive  proper  to  substitute  this  worm  gear  for 
the  belt  driving  mechanism  or  vice  versat 
A.  A  change  of  intervening  mechanism,  brought 

92  Thonnis  A.  Edison. 

365  about  by  changing  the  diameter  of  the  driving 
device  on  the  siiaft  of  the  rotating  bobbin. 

Q.  57.  How  much  time  would  be  required  to  make 
sucli  a  change'; 

A.  Several  days. 

Q.  58.  I  mean  where  the  parts  are  already  con¬ 

A.  Several  hours. 

Q.  i>9.  What  was  the  character  and  extent  of  use 
to  which  this  railroad  was  applied! 

300  A.  It  was  run  all  during  the  summer  of  1SS0. 
nearly  every  day,  carrying  passengers  hack  and  for¬ 

Q.  00.  How  complete  a  demonstration,  in  your 
judgment,  of  this  railroad  did  you  make  to  deter¬ 
mine  its  commercial  capacity? 

A.  We  made  a  complete  demonstration.  My  ex¬ 
periments  in  1S79  proved  to  myself  the  economy  of 
converting  the  power  of  a  stationary  engine  into 
_  electricity,  and  causing  such  electricity  to  reproduce 
307  mass  motion  through  the  intermediary  of  an  electro 
motor.  The  building  of  the  railroad  had  for  its  ob¬ 
ject  the  exhibition  to  the  public  of  a  practical  elec¬ 
tric  railway  for  the  purpose  of  obtaining  capital  to 
construct  longer  lines,  and  also  to  determine  the 
loss  of  current  by  leakage  through  the  earth  from 
rail  to  rail,  under  various  conditions  of  the  weather, 
and  also  to  determine  the  constancy  of  the  resistance 
of  the  track  circuit  as  a  conductor  under  action  of 
traffic  and  weather.  The  economy,  ns  far  as  motive 
36S  power  is  concerned,  was  known  to  me  before  the 

railroad  was  built,  from  my  experiments  oil  dynamo 

machines  and  motors.  The  object  for  which  the 
road  was  built  has  been  attained. 

Q.  01.  In  your  judgment,  could  an  electric  rail¬ 
road,  in  all  respects  like  that  made  by  you  in  May, 
1S80,  be  used  now  in  commercial  competition  with 
steam  railroads? 

A.  Yes,  sir, 

Q.  02.  I  ask  the  same  question  with  regard  to  the 
electric  railway  illustrated  in  your  Exhibits  1  to  11 
inclusive.  ’ 

Thomas  A.  Edison.  93 

Counsel  for  Siemens  objects  to  this  question  oaa 
because  Exhibits  1  to  1 1  contain  many  devices 
not  involved  in  this  interference.  If  the  ob¬ 
ject  of  the  question  is  to  show  the  utility  of  ‘ 
devices  and  their  value,  devices  involved  in 
the  interference  should  bo  specified. 

Same  objection  by  counsel  for  Field. 

A.  The  electrical  railway  shown  in  Exhibit  15  is 
only  carrying  out  what  is  shown  in  mv  exhibits  1  to 
1 1,  and  I  answer,  yes. 

Q.  03.  Have  you  at  a  later  date  commenced  the  ^ 
building  of  another  electric  railway;  if  so,  state  of 
what  length  and  the  proposed  power  of  the  loco¬ 

A.  I  comme  1  to  build  at  .Menlo  Park  another 
electric  railway,  arranged  and  operated  precisely  as 
the  one  shown  in  Exhibit  15.  Such  road  is  to  be  21- 
miles  long;  to  be  provided  with  a  high  speed  pas¬ 
senger  locomotive  of  30  horse  power,  and  a  low 
speed  freight  locomotive  of  30  horse  power.  The  *7. 
freight  locomotive  designed  to  haul  eight  small  cars 
at  eight  miles  au  hour,  while  the  passenger  locomo¬ 
tive  is  to  haul  two  cars  and  run  00  miles  an  hour. 

The  work  is  now  going  on,  the  road  bed  being  near¬ 
ly  finished,  the  locomotive  and  cais  building.  The 
object  of  this  road  is  to  fully  convince  certain  capi¬ 
talists  that  a  line  of  railway  fifty  miles  long  can  be 
operated  by  stations  five  miles  apart  or  more,  and 
that  a  ton  of  freight  can  be  hauled  as  cheaply  per 
mile  as  on  a  steam  road  operated  at  the  place,  and  373 
under  the  conditions  when  the  long  road  is  to  be 

Q.  (if.  Mr.  Edison,  will  you  procure  and  file  as  ex¬ 
hibits  as  soon  as  possible  photographs  of  the  locomo¬ 
tive  run  by  you  in  May,  18S0. 

A.  I  will. 


Counsel  fob  Field. 

x-Q.  05.  Do  you  remember  the  name  of  the.  lec- 


Thomas  A.  Edison. 

turer  who  described  the  -electric  railroad  S7  years 
ago  of  which  you  testified  ?  i 

A.  No,  sir. 

A^No*  si^"1  y0U  evei  1,ear 111,11 1,Ut  <MICO  ? 

■AfcT&isss  u“  ”b«  -  ii»  «* 

A.  No,  sir. 

x-Q  08.  Describe  the  locomotive  a  little  more 

cumtely  and  definitely  which  ran  around  ^on  the' 

nnt'J  0nly  kn,°T  that  11  'vas  a  locomotive.  I  was 
not  near  enough  to  see  any  of  the  details  excent  fho 
,  ‘e  Iltlle  enS*ne,  and  the  batteries. 
x-Q.  t>9.  Was  there  a  car  oranv  sm+  nf,. 
vehicle  attached  to  the  locomotl/e?  ^ 

A.  No,  sir. 

X  ^7'“'“ ot 

stated.  "llat  1  have 

x-Q.  72  Do  you  remember  when  your  mind  first 

A.  It  has  occurred  to  me  at  various  • 

that.  ui  'auous  times  since 

x-Q.  73.  In  what  connection? 

A.  With  electricity. 

x-Q.  73.  Applied,  or  in  the  abstract? 

A.  Applied. 
x-Q.  74.  How? 

miEht  i"terfm  «p«- 

*‘<3- Tfi-  What  application? 

A.  For  a  patent  on  electric  railroads. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

x-Q.  7(5.  One  of  your  own? 

;A0  ?-K\tllat  1  lm‘l,oscd  to  make  application  for.  377 

x-Q.  ii.  When  was  this? 

A.  When  was  what? 


A.  In  IS7S. 

,!1-  Di']  you  take  any  steps  to  aseorbiin 
whether  you  iltitl  ,t  ]t  might  o  interf, 
correct  or  not?  mrureie  was 

A.  No  sir.  378 

one  v,;„S0'  'Va'S  ^  ;,Tl,Il'cation  you  referred  to  as 

LtZlP  ’  “'0  f”  in 

eral  plan  are  shown  mmy  application  in  inteffer- 

ufh  81'  ,Hi‘d  you  U,0ueht  of  this  railroad  at  anv 
SiSr  y0,lth0l,Kl,t  0f  n,afci”S  this  ap- 

Vt  tit?0116'? tl10  raih'oad  out  before  I  thought 
ot  making  the  application,  and  when  I  thought  of 

tliat'l^^  arLf  Cati°"  1  th0l'Sht  °f  this  1^,roa<1 

ti  nt  i  had  seen  many  years  before,  wondering 

w  hether  a  public  exhibition  of  a  toy  railroad  on  a  380 

table  could  be  used  as  a  reference  against  an  aonli 
cation  fora  patent  on  a  electric  railway  on  a  large 

.  iX  S'  S"i,  Pid  you  lmike  any  endeavor  to  find  out 

whether  this  was  the  case  or  not? 

A.  No,  sir. 

*'9*  ?3‘  Had  >’ou  thought  of  this  railroad  which 
>ou  had  seen  many  yeare  before  at  any  other  time 

before  you  began  to  think  of  making  your  anulic-i 
tion  m  this  case,  and  if  so  in  what  connection? 

Thomas  A.  Edison 

881  A.  Which  application? 

x-Q.  St.  The  application  of  1S7S. 

1  hat]  thought  of  it  in  connection  with 
the  little  motor  which  was  to  be  run  on  wires  in  Hm 
winter  of  1872-73. 

x-Q.  S5  In  what  way  did  you  think  of  it  then? 

A.  I  thought  of  it  for  the  reason  I  was  trying  to 

do  the  same  thing  for  a  purpose  and  in  a  slightly 

different  manner,  the  object  of  the  wire  raihoad 
being  to  connect  the  different  branch  offices  of  the 
Western.  Union  telegraph  Company  to  the  central 
office,  so  as  tosend  out  and  receive  messages  with- 

tT«  b™“oSB^,''"0e'a|,l""e ”'1  fro'“ 

A.  I  have  already  stated  the  purpose  and  the 
manner  was  different  insomuch  a.s  my  track  con- 
sisted  of  telegraph  wires  which  were  to  be  suspended 

883  Pn  a"^  operated  bet"'een  two  terminals. 

-\-y.  Si  Do  you  mean  that  you  thought  this  early 
toy  might  answer  for  tiie  purpose  which  you  had 
in  mind  m  1872  and  7:!,  for  yom.  olectrfc 

A.  No,  sir. 

*'9:  ®S;  w*iat  part  of  the  winter  of  1S72  and 
<3  did  this  device  occur  to  you,  as  near  as  you  can 
remember?  y  11 

thinlfj  e(Xperi,me"‘s  reyived  the  recollections  of 
the  old  lecture,. but  I  cannot  state  what  time  it  oc 

884  cun-ed  to  me,  but  it  nevertheless  occurred  to  met 

the  winter  of  ’72-73.  1 

x-Q.  89  In  what  part  of  the  winter  of  iS7-?-’73 
f  con,,ectil,g  main  and  branch  tele- 
gi-aph  offices  by  means  of  this  electric  ‘motor  run 
nmg  on  wires,  occur  to  you  ? 

A.  My  impression  is  it  was  in  December,  1872,  and 
my  further  impression  is  that  there  was  a  sleet 

not  Inni  Y?1mem°ly0f  the  eal'b’.lecture  was 
not,  I  understand  you,  revived  until  you  began  to 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

it  miglit  have  1,«»  ,t  ,llf. 
terent  times  in  connection  with  my  experiments  in 
electricity,  but  I  do  not  recall  it.  P  1,1 

when' vo!i  lift  f  m..rememher  any  more  definitely 
I  thii  w? L* ?  "'est  111  the  s'mimer  of  1S78  ? 

A.  I  think  I  left  about  July  lath,  1S7S  ■  T  was  it 
Hawhngs  Wyoming  Tenitory,  on  the  eclipse  Sne- 
29thni87S  “we  w^'h  the  eCl'PSl‘  occulTed  011  July 

cuiTed.  ’  LI,U  there  several  days  before  it  oc-  386 

By  consent,  the  taking  of  further  testimony  was 
)o.stponed  to  Wednesday,  November  23d.  1SS1  at 
io  A.  .U.,  at  same  place. 

Wm.  H.  Meadowcroft, 

Notary  Public, 

N.  Y.  Co. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  taking  of  testimony 
io  .  le®umed  on  Y\  ednesdav,  November  23.  1SS1,  at 
u  A.  M. ;  same  counsel  being  present. 

Counsel  for  Field  desires  to  state  that  any 
poition  of  the  cross-examination  relating  to 
portions  of  the  direct  examination,  which 
were  duly  objected  to,  is  made  without  waiver 
of  said  objections. 

x-Q.  92.  Do  you  remember  when  you  returned  388 
from  your  journey  out  west,  in  1S7S  ? 

A.  The  latter  end  of  August,  187S. 

x-Q.  93  How  soon  after  your  return  did  youim- 
paitto  others  your  idea  of  a  system  of  electric  rail¬ 
way  conceived  during  your  journey  ? 
return  Sh°Uld  say  ab°ut  within  ten  days  after- niv 

edit?  M‘  D0  J  0U  1,emeniber  wI,en  >‘°u  first  impart- 
A.  Within  ten  days  after  I  returned. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

x-Q.  Jo  I  mean  more  definitely;  the  particular  dav 
or  time  of  day  ? 

A.  It  would  be  a  very  difficult  matter  for  mo  after 
a  lapse  of  nearly  three  years,  to  remember  tile  ex- 
act  day  on  which  I  imparted  my  ideas  to  others 
and  I  cannot  remember  nearer  than  ten  days, 
ten  days?  H°"  y°“  fiX  tlle  timu  as  being  within 

j  A.  I  fix  the  time  by  reason  that  having  finished 
up  my  telephone  and  phonograph  I  was  looking  out 
for  something  else  to  go  into  immediatelv  on  my  re- 
Sretf  li.g',ti"«  aml  u'eetrics  railroads 

e.etleschetnesdectded  upon  as  the  ones  to  take 
up,  and  I  discussed  them  with  others 

hVhtL07'  Wh“l  did  y0U  bo«i"  "•“■k  upon  electric 
lighting,  as  nearly  as  you  can  remember? 

A.  If  you  refer  to  my  commencing  working  after 
my  return  from  the  West,  I  commenced  the  early 
part  of  September,  187S. 

x-Q.  08.  I  do  not  refer  to  that;  I  ask  you  when 
you  began  work  upon  electric  lighting;  I  me  in  ,  u, 
it  before  or  after  you  went  out  West,  in  1*78? 

T  rafnL'T^11  °il,  ''ghting  before  and  after 

1  returned  from  the  West. 

_  r;-  ?id  -vou  finish  up  the  telephone  and  pho- 

liograph  boforo  you  went  out  West* 

A.  Iliad  finished  them  up  sons  to  make  them 

commercial— especially  the  telephone. 

x-Q.  100  Did  you  begin  to  lookout,  for  something 
e  se  o  go  into  only  after  your  return,  or  were  vou 
on  the  lookout  as  soon  as  you  had  finished  with'the 
telephone  and  phonograph? 

A.  Iliad  many  things  turning  over  iff  my  mind 
to  go  into  before  I  bad  finished  on  the  telephone  and 
phonograph,  but  after  mv  return  I  decided  i 
into  electric  railroads  and  electric  light,  as  both 
could  be  worked  m  conjunction.  The  experiments 
m  electric  lighting  on  the  production  of  efficient  dv 
namos,  which  were  convertible  into  , notom  1  d 
advance  the  railroad  at  the  same  time. 
x-Q.  101.  Do  you  remember  the  time  of  your  con- 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

veisation  with  Mr.  G.  P.  Lowrev,  in  187!),  to  which  808 
you  have  referred? 

A.  As  near  as  I  can  remember,  it  was  in  Febru¬ 
ary  or  March,  1870. 

x-Q.  102.  What  was  tile  result  of  yoiir  calculations 
as  to  the  economical  part  of  the  railway  in  1878 and 
'70,  to  which  you  have  referred? 

A.  I  calculated  that  an  electric  railway  could  be 
erected  and  operated  in  the  flat  lands  of  Iowa,  and 
other  wheat-growing  States  of  the  Northwest,  more 
cheaply  than  a  steam  railroad — first,  by  reason  of  894 
the  small  initial  investment  required  and  of  the 
small  operating  expenses— the  road  being  so  con¬ 
ducted  and  operated  as  to  be  abundantly  able  to  do 
all  the  traffic  of  the  region  through  which  it  ran; 
which  traffic  would  be  quite  insufficient  to  warrant 
the  construction  of  a  steam  railroad  made  in  the 
manner  now  in  vogue;  and  I  had  calculated  the  cost 
to  a  point  where  I  believed  that  such  an  electric 
railroad  as  I  had  thought  out  would  be  more  eco¬ 
nomical  than  a  steam  railroad.  In  the  far  North-  395 
west  immense  bodies  of  arable  land,  suitable  for 
grain-growing,  are  beyond  the  area  of  economical 
production,  and  these  lands  are  only  brought  within- 
that  area  by  railroad  communication;  but  in  most 
cases  the  traffic  for  yearn  to  come  would  not 
warrant  the  construction  of  a  steam  rail¬ 
road;  and  I  reasoned  that  if  an  electric  railroad 
could  be  constructed  at  one-third  the  cost  of  a  steam 
railroad  vast  tracks  of  arable  land  could  be  brought 
within  the  limits  of  economical  production  and  at  383 
the  same  time  pay  handsome  profits  on  the  small 
investment  required  for  an  electrical  railroad.  And 
in  my  Exhibit  No.  ti,  a  windmill  is  shown  at  a  sta¬ 
tion,  my  idea  being  that  I  could  take  advantage  of 
the  constant  winds  which  prevail  over  these  regions 
to  obtain  motive  power  which  could  by  means  of  dy¬ 
namo  machines  be  turned  into  electricity,  sent  out 
on  the  railroad  track  to  operate  the  electric  loco¬ 
motives  and  thus  obtain  the  motive  power  cheaply, 
by  taking  advantage  of  the  natural  winds  which 
prevail  almost  continuously  in  these  regions. 


Thomas  A.  Edison. 

8OT  x-Q.  103.  The  calculations  to  which  I  refer  in  mv 
!ast  question  are  those  spoken  of  by  you  in  the  cost 
Pii,k-  was  the  re! 

siilt  of  tliose  calculations? 

A  That  I  could  build  an  operative  electric  rail- 
load  cheaper  than  a  steam  railroad 

W10^  W':?n  y°“  im>,ilrte'1  y°"r  Men  to  othen 
iook  it’^do  ft;8'  ,lH  y0,,  rCme,,1,)U'-  ^ 

A.  I  didn’t  time  myself. 

898  X'Q-  I0»-  Question  repeated 

J  0Ai8id5“it  tim.  mys0]f-'1  remember. 

time?  y°U  m,pBrtll,°  "’hole  of  it  at  one 

Hits  t;rrte<1  ti,e  8e,,er"1  i(k“a  with  sufficient  de- 
‘ ,  /  t  f  I,ersons  to  whom  I  imparted  it  to  have 
constructed  an  electric  railway. 

x-Q.  107.  Do  you  remember  how  much  you  calcu 
at?d  I™  «t  Menlo  Park  would  cos 

A-  I  calculated  that  it  would  cost  about  from 
399  ’  ’  lf|h  to  3,1*00  dollars  per  mile 

carafe.?'  D06S  tImt  incIUtle’t,K!  “>st  <’f  the  motor, 

400  Nos.  is,  13  and  14?  «*  jour  Exhibits 

Jolia?,.'"'  C0M  i"  Ih.  !,M 

A.  S.O00  dollars  covered  the  cost  of  preparing  the 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

rel.!Jed;ilaying  the  tk‘s’  layilIS  down  the  rails  m 
‘eadj  for  the  passage  of  an  electric  locomotive.  The  1 
road  was  about  three-quarters  of  a  mile  long. 

A  No  abP0  'V0"  k”°"’  eXaCtly  h°"' loMfcr  'f  "’as? 
motive?114'  WI'at  "aS  thC  C°st  °f  the  ck’etric  loco- 
A.  I  can’t  raineinber. 

maWy”  ’’  Stnt<>it  aS  nt‘al'Iy  ,ns  you  can  approxi- 

A.  As  it  stands  to-day  I  should  say  that  (5,000  dol-  m 
lara  would  not  pay  for  all  the  work  and  changes  in 
the  original  construction  of  the  locomotive. 

x-Q  II 0.  At  what  should  you  estimate  the  first 
cost  of  this  locomotive? 

A.  I  should  say  two  thousand  to  two  thousand 
five  hundred  dollars. 

x-Q.  117.  Was  it  built  at  Menlo  Park,  in  your 
own  workshops? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  most  of  it. 

x-Q.  11S.  What  was  the  cost,  as  near  as  you  can  w 
estimate  it,  of  the  dynamo-electric  machine  which 
was  used  at  the  station? 

A.  About  nine  hundred  dollars. 
x-Q.  H9  Was  this  also  built  in  your  workshops 
at  Menlo  Park? 

x-Q.  120.  Were  the  electric-locomotive  and  dv- 
namo-electric  machine,  at  the  station,  both  built  ex¬ 
pressly  for  this  railroad? 

A.  Tub  one  on  the  locomotive  was  built  ex-  404. 
prcssly,  but  the  one  at  the  station  was  built  for  the 
electric  light. 

x-Q.  121.  Do  you  remember  whether  the  one  at  the 

station  had  been  used  before  it  was  used  in  connec¬ 
tion  with  the  railway? 

’A.  Yes,  sir;  it  had. 

x-Q.  122.  Was  the  electric  locomotive  entire]  v 
new,  in  all  its  parts,  or  was  some  of  the  material 
which  you  had  on  hand  in  your  workshops  used  in 
its  construction? 


Thomas  A.  Edison. 

406  A-  hel  ft  might  have  been  some  small  parts  such 
nXe^’stt1  ^  °"  l,aml  ,mt  ‘"4 “S  lol'o. 

x-Q.  133.  How  much  less,  as  nearly  as  von 
judge,  did  it  cost  you  to  build  this  locomotive  than 
"-ouM  have  cost  to  have  built  it  had  you  not  had 
A  A  n  f  "Cl1  y°U  ha,,  at  h«n'I  at  Menlo  Park? 
A.  AS  i  ],ad  complete  working  drawings  I  could 

t  ™  .T0lk’  aiu'>  fr°m  Die  experience  I  have  had 

shol;  ItlUnk  1  h0d  ‘0n  °r  t'Ve,VL‘  ">«**«***  in  the 
“a  bra»  ™» '»« 

x-Q-  1S8.  Give  it  as  near  as  von 
mately?  as  -'°"  tal1-  npproxi- 

$800  dollars.^1  ^  tlle  threo  cost  from  §500  to 

*'Q/  *  P,ease  l00k  at  Exhibits  I  to  7  inclusive 

A.  They  were  made  about  May  isth  1ST.,  r 

time.  d  ^  ^  one  or  two  days  Jr^s  lo'SaJ 

x-Q.  130.  Do  you  remember  on  wlnt  ,1.,,,  *i 
were  made?  '  "at  day  they 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 


A.  I  do  not  remember  the  exact  day,  but  tliev 
daTnrevfm.!.,ie^l,St0May  1Sth’  1S7!'-  1  «««'*«* 

civen  to  m  £ I0>  ."ule  n  Iot  of  rough  sketches 
l  In'LSI  '°  enaWehimto  make  the 

working  drawings. 

x-Q.  131.  Did  you  accompany  them  with  de- 
scriptions  when  you  gave  them  to  Mr.  Kruesi  or 
did  he  make  the  working  drawings  from  'the- 
sketches  alone? 

,„A;  1  explained  them  orally,  making  sketches  to 
illustrate  my  explanations.  m 

tl.o'r  1;!2'  ?avo  y°u  nn-v  ^collection  of 

the  time  when  yon  did  this,  or  do  yon  fix  it  hv 
means  of  the  dates  upon  the  sketches*  3 
A  I  fix  it  by  means  of  dates  on  the  sketches  and 
by  means  of  the  dates  on  the  trestle  work  exhibits 
d\-  n  vJ1o  Vrem,embel' tl,ose  t,'ostIe  work  exhibits. 
nf\it  ,  1,a':e  110  in,,ependent  recollection 

i“i«  t,n“  "|k”'  >■”“  ■“a« 
tats  Lir:'1':;  ,Ik'  °f  thu » -vaii  hi©  m 

dates  on  the  trestle  work  exhibits.  From  this  I  am 
enabled  to  set  the  dates  on  the  Exhibits  1  to  7  I 
am  also  enabled  from  my  general  work  to  sot 'the 
date,  winch  is  that  marked  on  the  exhibits. 

,  ,?34;  P°  you  ‘^member  whether  or  not  you 
made  all  of  those  sketches  except  No.  fi  on  the  same 

A.  Yes  sir;  I  feel  pretty  sure  that  I  made  all  of 
those  on  the  same  day  except  No.  (5. 

x-Q  135.  Do  you  remember  whether  or  not  you  413 
made  them  m  Mr.  Kruesi's  presence* 

A.  I  think  I  did. 

x-Q .130.  Do  you  remember  seeing  him  write 
upon  them? 

A.  No  sir;  but  I  remember  seeing  the  dates  upon 
the  exhibits  within  two  or  three  days  after  the  dates 
upon  them. 

NiT'c?  137  D°  y°U  remember  making  Exhibit 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

413  x-Q.  13S.  And' when? 

A.  -Within  a  day  or  two  after  Exhibits  1  to  7  ex¬ 
clusive  of  it.  '  ‘ 

x-Q.  139.  Do  you  remember  when  you  gave  .Mr. 
■h-ruesi  certain  instructions  about  the  cost  and  ar¬ 
rangement  of  material  for  the  railroad? 

-About  the  time  these  sketches  were  made 
tions  ivere?  D°  3°U  ,0,nu,,ll)ei'  ."’hat  those  instruc- 

m  it^cIrTt-r‘-‘melnbe.'i‘ll°f  thuni>  Imt  generally 

m  r  t0  <1evise  a  trestle  work  which  would  have 
the  maximum  efficiency  and  economv,  and  also  in- 
s  ructions  as  to  the  designing  of  the  locomotive  as 
ndicated  m  the  exhibits,  said  exhibits  being  used 
l>y  me  to  assist  these  explanations, 
to  7?  U1'  D°  3  0"  mtnl1  by  “sai<1  exhibits,*’  1 

A.  Yes,  sir;  1  to  7. 

x-Q.  142.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Kruesi  while  he  was 

...  making  Exhibits  8,  10  and  ll» 

416  A.  Yes,  5ir. 

tom?keSem?°  y°U  mhwhow  Ioll«  “  took  him 
A.  No  sir;  they  were  done  very  quickly. 
x-Q.  144.  Do  you  remember  when  vou  first 

S°cniakisg-th0, rails  a  conductor 

by  using  copper  steps  beneath  the  fish  plates? 

-a.  Yes;  I  think  it  was  in  1809. 

*'?•.  ,Do  yo«  remember  when  the  Edison 
Electric  Light  Company  was  organized? 

10  A.  In  the  fall  of  1878. 

x-Q  140.  Had  you  at  that  time  your  workshon 
established  at  Menlo  Park  which  you  have  referrad 

tinfe/  'lad'a  "'0rksh°P  at  JIe»Io  Park  at  that 

employ  hUhtm?Ut  h0W  mBny  workm“  ™  you 

and  several  other  peo^eLployed' by  ™e™acbin,8te 

Thomas  A.  Edisc 

x-Q.  148.  Were  you  a  stockholder  in  the  Edison  417  • 

Electric  Light  Company? 

A.  I  was  a  stockholder  on  its  organization  and  . 

x-Q.  149.  To  what  extent? 

A.  To  a  considerable  extent. 
x-Q.  ISO.  Have  you  received  any  dividends  on 
your  stock  up  to  1SS0? 

A.  No,  sir. 

x-Q.  101.  Do  you  know  what  the  value  of  that 
stock  was,  between  the  time  of  the  organization  of  418 
the  company  and  1889? 

A.  I  don't  know. 

x-Q.  152.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  of  the  shares 
of  this  stock  being  sold  by  any  person  prior  to 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  153.  Did  you  hear  what  the  price  was  for 
which  if  was  sold? 

A.  I  heard  it  rumored  that  it  sold  as.  high  2,500 
dollars  a  share.  419 

x-Q.  154.  What  is  the  .capital  stock  of  the  com¬ 
pany  and  into  how  many  shares  is  it  divided?  I 

A.  The  capital  stock  is  .$480,000;  divided  into 

x-Q.  155.  How  many  of  those  sharesdid  you  hold 
upon  the  organization  of  the  company? 

A.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

x-Q.  150.  If  the  company  has  4,S00  shares,  what 
nu  mber  of  shares  would  you  consider  a  considerable 
number?  420 

A.  500  shares  would  be  a  considerable  number. 
x-Q.  157.  Did  you  have  more  than  500  shares 
yourself  at  the  organization  of  the  company? 

A.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

x-Q.  158.  Did  you  have  more  than  COu  shares  at 
the  organization  of  the  company? 

A.  I  refuse  to  answer  as  to  the  number  of  shares 
I  had. 


Thomas  A.  Edison. 

l’lad  a  considerable  number  of  shares,  and 
with  the  exception  of  twenty,  which  I  sold  in  1SS1 
I  have  all  of  them  still.  ’ 

x-Q.  Kill.  Question  repeated. 

I  had.1  'efUSe  t0  “nS"'er  as  t0  tho  nui»bL-‘-  of  shares 
you  wil'ln1,: wSaSk -V°U  tI,ati  1  ask whether 

the  nnmi  f  tglV0 1110  »n.v  approximate  idea  of 

tfionumber  of  sharegyau  had;  say  for  instance  be- 
tueen  a  certain  number  of  hundred? 

I  had  refUSC  ‘°  anS"'e''  “  t0  the  numb<i1'  of  shares 

x-Q.  162.  Had  you  or  not,  between  1STS  and  issn 

stock  t  Tl  nUmbf!'  °f  sim,'es  “f  tllis  electric  light 
stock  to  have  enabled  you  to  raise  1.1,000  dollars  dur 



exanlatiom  3'  matt01‘  C01ltai,*e(1  il1  «>“  «««** 

A.  I  don’t  know. 

Union  Telegraph  Comp^^ 

to  be  paid  a  certain  amount  in  cash  each  week  fm 

thS^^^°^!-">add>tion  thereto 

Same  objection  as  to  previous  question. 

A.  les,  sir,  I  had  such  a  cont.  n-t- 

contract,  one  under 


which  I  was  to  be  paid  Sion  a  week,  which  money 
was  to  be  solely  used  for  experimenting  on  tele¬ 
graphic  apparatus  for  the  Western  Union  Telegraph 
Company;  the  other  contract  was  for  payment  of 
5>6,oiio  a  year  on  account  of  my  telephone,  2.1  per 
cent,  of  which  was  divided  among  my  assistants, 
the  balance  used  for  my  family  expenses. 

x-Q.  105.  Had  you  during  this  period,  any  con¬ 
tract  with  the  Western  Union  Telegraph  Company 
other  than  these  two  which  you  have  specified,  and 
under  which  you  received  payments  of  money? 

Same  objection. 

4-  No,  sir,  I  cannot  remember  any. 

x-Q.  100.  Had  you  any  arrangement  with  the 
Western  Union  Telegraph  Company,  during  this 
period,  in  accordance  with  which  they  were  to  pav 
you  sums  of  money  for  patents  taken  out  by  you 
and  assigned  to  said  company,  which  sums  were  to 
be  fixed  by  appraisement  of  the  value  of  said 

Same  objection. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  107.  How  much  money  did  you  receive  dur¬ 
ing  this  period,  as  near  as  you  can  remember,  in 
accordance  with  these  arrangements? 

Same  objection. 

A.  I  don’t  think  I  received  a  cent. 

x-Q.  108.  Did  you  assign  any  patents  to  them  in 
accordance  with  this  arrangement  during  this 

Same  objection. 

A.  My  impression  is  that  I  have.  The  records  of 
the  Patent  Office  will  show. 

x-Q.  109.  But  you  think  you  were  not 
them.  Is  that  it? 

Same  objection. 

A.  I  tbink  no  settlement  has  been  made. 

paid  for 

10s  Thomas  A.  Edison. 

m  f ,  X,"Q'  -!,70;,  H‘?.d  you  ally  arrangement  similar  to 
that  the  Western  Union  Telegraph  Company, 
period?11''  °th0‘  compan-v  wlmtsoever  during  this 
Same  objection. 

A.  I  don’t  remember  any. 

X;?:  Id\  ®!ld  y°u  a»y  similar  arrangement  dur- 
Coinpan1-0"0'  "’,th  tl,e  001,1  and  Stock  Telegraph 
480  Same  objection. 

^t,^.!eI?h011!rntract  fl'om  "'llkh  I  received 
S0,0IM»  uas  a  tripartite  contract  between  the  Western 
Union  Telegraph  Company,  the  Gold  and  Stock 

TS£S‘S‘,,a  ,l” s»“k‘»s 

x-Q.  i,j.  Did  you,  or  not,  during  this  period  re¬ 
cede  any  sums  of  money  from  your  foreign  patents! 
Same  objection. 

431  A.  I  do  not  remember  receiving  any.  I  think  I 

x-Q.  lob  Did  you  during  1ST!)  or  1880,  make  a 
contract  until  the  Western  Union  Telegraph  Com- 

Same  objection. 

,  if'  A1*’  sil';  in  lsso-  I  think  it  was  late  in  the 
482  1SS0°  /cannot  haV®  lloel1 111  the  sumr»ei:  of 
ing  mv  n Sr  °  0Xnct  <latL'  refresh- 

mg  m\  memoiy  from  some  data. 

of  "the  date's  ST  •y°U  a"/  recollection 

tes  fie, r-  d  “roum«t“nc«  to  which  you  have 

tioi  Sh  v  y0l,rdl,'ect  examination  after  consulta- 
ha  i  hat  yr,mem°?ndUm  and  ^rap-books,  other 
than  that  winch  you  derived  from  the  same! 

reffesh^m10'^1  Umai,<lsCral,-books°nly  serve  to 
the  habit  of  cramming  for  examination. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

x-Q.  175.  Do  you  remember  what  were  the  first  *88 
preparations  which  you  made  for  filing  an  applica¬ 
tion  for  a  patent  upon  the  electric  railway,  and 
when  you  made  them? 

A.  I  explained  some  time  in  November  or  Decem¬ 
ber,  187h,  about  a  proposed  application  for  a  patent 
on  electrical  railway  to  Major  Wilber,  who  was  then 
visiting  my  laboratory  at  various  times,  familiar¬ 
izing  himself  with  my  business  with  a  view  of  be¬ 
coming  my  solicitor.  Some  of  the  papere  looking 
towards  an  application  for  a  patent  were  probably  434 
made  in  February  or  March,  1880,  but  I  am  not  sure 
whether  the  complete  application  filed  in  the  Patent 
Office,  and  now  in  interference,  was  completed 
before  April  or  May,  1880,  or  not,  but  I  strongly  be¬ 
lieve  that  it  was  completed,  or  nearly  completed,  in 
April,  1SS0. 

x-Q.  170.  Did  Major  Wilber  finally  prepare  the 
application  fi  0111  the  directions  thus  given  him  in 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  from  further  directions  in  1S80.  435 

x-Q.  177.  Can  you  make  any  estimate  of  the 
number  of  applications  for  patents  made  by  you  be¬ 
tween  July,  1S7S,  and  July,  1SS0? 

A.  I  can’t  remember;  there  might  have  been  as 
many  as  fifty  or  more. 

x-Q.  17S.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  worm 
wheel  or  cog  gearing  was  broken  while  it  was  upon 
the  locomotive? 

A.  No,  sir;  it  was  not  broken  while  on  the  loco¬ 
motive.  438 

Cross-examination  for  Field  was  here  closed. 


Kou  Siemens: 

Counsel  for  Siemens  states  that  he  conducts 
his  cross-examination  without  waiving  any 
objections  made  by  him  during  the  direct  ex¬ 

x-Q.  179.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you  con¬ 
ceived  the  subject  matter  of  this  interference  as 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 




SSiS^rSltofclSSeSS^S1  “b' 


A.  Charles  Batchelor. 

"--.Es s?r*”,to  "'‘om  w 

West?  ftei  J  0I,r  retu,n  from  the 

M;4Kn>e"in0t  ,'ememl,er  exactl>’  hut  I  think  it  was 

,„™t ,r  “*  i,“ »™  »< "'»» >-.«  ™ 

A.  I  can’t  remember. 

x-Q.  1S4.  Do  I  understand  you  to  siv 

=21 ,^jrr;xrr«““ 

e.p.  Mr.  ..mSKS'*  >'°*r  ~ 

about  your  invention  in  1873  vvjnt  M>  R  ^!k,.ne 
and  Mr.  Kruesi?  except  Mi.  Batchelor 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

a.  jno,  sir. 

x-Q  ISO  State  the  names  of  all  persons  to  whom 
you  described  or  talked  of  the  invention,  except 

ts-.i  H  ,  ?1'  "nd  Mr-  Kn,csi-  l»i°r  to  May  istii 
Isu^the  date  marked  m  lead  pencil  upon  Exhibits 

A.  I  cannot  remember  all  their  names  I  do  not 
remember  any  one  in  particular.  There  were  a 
great  mail)  persons  round,  and  whether  I  talked 
with  them  or  not  it  is  difficult  for  me  to  siv  I 
talked  out  and  openly  to  all.  ' 

x-Q.  1ST.  Give  the  names  of  any  of  those  who  * 
uere  around,  except  Mr.  Batchelor  and  Mr.  Kruesi, 

May  irisrr1'"  talkil,S  °fy0UI'  inventi0'1  Prior  to 

rot;„Mra.''tin,  FS°°'  Fra,lds  11  Upton,  Thomas 
Logan,  Charles  Flammer,  Charles  Dean,  John  Ott. 

x-Q.  188.  I  understand  Figure  1  of  the  drawing  of 
your  application,  concerning  which  you  have  testi- 
fied,  represents  a  series  of  switches.' one  connected 
o  one  brush  of  the  commutator  and  one  connected  448 
to  another  brush;  are  these  series  of  switches  as 
shown  in  the  drawing  illustrated  in  anyone  of  your 
exhibits  from  1  to  14,  inclusive! 

A  The  switches  are  not  connected  to  the  two 
brushes  of  the  commutator  in  Figure  1. 

x-Q.  ISO.  In  Figure  fare  illustrated  electro  motors 

for  a  track  switch;  are  any  such  electro  motois 
shown  m  any  one  of  your  exhibits,  from  1  to  14,  in- 

A.  They  are  only  indicated  by  the  drawing  Ex-  444 
hunt  No.  0.  The  wires  which  proceed  from  thecen- 
tral  station  out  to  the  junction  of  the  two  tracks 
serving  to  convey  current  from  the  station  to  the 

x-Q.  100.  In  Figure  7  is  illustrated  a  means  of 
conveying  motion  to  the  switch;  is  any  such  device 
illustrated  in  ally  of  your  exhibits,  from  1  to  14.  in¬ 

A-  None  of  tbe  details  of  the  switch  are  shown  in 
the  exhibits;  but  the  fact  of  an  automatic,  electrical- 

A.  Edison. 

112  Thomas 

445  ly  moved  switch,  operated  by  current  sent  over 
wires,  is  indicated  in  Exhibit  No.  (i. 

x-Q.  101.  Figure  S  shows  a  switch  lever  con¬ 
nected  to  a  frame  sliding  in  ways  in  which  works  a 
cam;  is  any  such  device  shown  in  any  of  your  Exhib¬ 
its  from  1  to  14,  inclusive? 

A.  I  repeat  my  answer  to  question  100. 

x-Q.  192.  Figure  9  shows  electrical  switches,  level's 
pivoted  to  suitable  supports,  and  springs  with  their 
curved  ends  turned  upward  so  as  to  catch  the 

446  lower  end  of  the  level's;  is  any  such  device  shown 
in  the  Exhibits  from  1  to  14,  inclusive. 

A.  Exhibit  No.  4  shows  circuit  controlling  levers 
for  manipulating  the  current  on  the  section  of  . rails 
immediately  fronting  the  station. 

x-Q.  193.  Was  any  such  device  as  that  illustrated 
in  Figure  9,  reduced  to  practice  by  you .  at  Menlo 
Park  or  elsewhere? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  on  an  electric  railroad. 

x-Q.  194.  In  Figure  11  is  shown  a  flange  made 

447  separately  and  connected  by  a  web,  I  suppose,  of 
wood,  to  which  they  were  bolted,  by  means  of 
which  the  axle  and  body  of  the  car  are  insulated 
from  the  flanges  and  track;  is  any  such  wheel 
shown  in  any  one  of  your  Exhibits  from  1  to  14,  in¬ 
clusive?  .  • 

A.  It  is  only  indicated  in  my  Exhibit  No.  11, 
when  a  change  being  made  from  extra  conductors 
to  the  ordinary  rail  necessitates  an  insulation  of  the 
wheel  or  axle.  This  would  be  clearly  indicated  to 

448  an  expert  to  whom  was  shown  Exhibits  11  and  8. 

x-Q.  195.  Where  is  a  wooden  or  insulated  web 
shown  in  Exhibits  8  and  11? 

A.  It  is  riot  shown,  but  would  be  indicated  by 
the  arrangement  of  the  circuit,  that  the  axle  con¬ 
necting  the  two  driving  wheels  together  was  in¬ 

x-Q.  190.  Figure  12  shows  the  axle  cut  in  two  and 
connected  by  a  sleeve  insulated  therefrom  and  bolts 
insulated  but  passing  through  the  halves  of  the 
axle;is  any  such  device  shown  in  any  one  of  your 
Exhibits  from  F  to  14,  inclusive. 

x-Q.  197.  Was  any  such  device  used  or  reduced  to 
practice  by  you  at  Menlo  Park  or  elsewhere  as  that 
shown  in  Figure  12? 

A.  No;  the  one  shown  in  Figure  1 1  was  thought 
to  be  more  practicable. 

x-Q.  198.  In  Figure  3  is  illustrated  a  boss  or  spin¬ 
dle  on  which  bears  a  commutator  brush  held  by  an 
arm  through  which  the  current  passes;  is  any  such 
arm  or  commutator  brush  shown  in  any  one  of  your 
Exhibits  from  1  to  14  inclusive?  '  450 

A.  No,  sir;  these  exhibits  were  made  to  convey 
the  general  idea  to  Mr.  Kruesi,  and  did  not  go  into 
minute  details;  such  things  being  given  by  word  of 

x-Q.  199.  In  Figures  5  and  0  are  shown  elbow 
levers  pivoted,  and  springs  tending  to  close  the  cir¬ 
cuit;  is  any  such  device  shown  in  your  Exhibits 
from  1  to  14,  inclusive? 

A.  The  reversing  arrangement  shown  in  Figure  fi 
is  the  equi  valent  of  the  reversing  arrangement  shown  1 51 
in  Exhibit  4.  Both  reverse  the  current,  but  the 
shape  of  the  parts  is  different. 

x-Q.  200.  I  do  not  ask  you  anything  about  equiv¬ 
alents,  but  whether  the  device  illustrated  in  the  ap¬ 
plication  is  shown  in  the  exhibits? 

A.  The  device  in  figure  C,  and  the  device  shown 
in  Exhibit  No.  4.  are  for  reversing  the  direction  of 
the  current,  and  both  devices  are  only  intended  for 
that  purpose.  Both  accomplish  the  purpqse,  but 
the  construction  as  to  shape  of  the  parts  is  dif-  452 

x-Q.  201.  How  would  you  operate  the  device  for 
reversing  the  current  shown  in  Exhibit  4. 

A.  By  moving  the  levers. 

x  Q.  202.  Devices  for  reversing  the  current  were 
used  prior  to  your  invention,  were  they  not? 

A.  Yes;  but  not,  I  think,  in  connection  with  an 
electric  railroad. 

x-Q.  203.  What  difference  is  there  in  the  opera¬ 
tion  of  a  device  for  reversing  the  current  placed  on 

488  n«rn-MtiVfi. an<1  a  <?evicc  for  revers,ug  the  curren  t 
used  with  other  machines  and  apparatus' 

A.  Devices  for  reversing  the  current,  when  used 
conl,ectlon  wth  a  dynamo  machine, .have  to  be 
specially  constructed,  so  as  to  obviate  the  effects  of 
a  powerful  electric  spark. 

x-Q.  204.  Devices  for  reversing  the  current  used 
in  connection  with  dynamo  electric  machines,  were 
m  use  prior  to  your  application  of  such  device  to  an 
electric  railway,  were  they  not? 
m  A  I  don’t  call  to  mind  any;  neither  do  I  call  to 
mind  any  where  a  revolting  device  was  used  in  col ° 
nection  with  a  dynamo  machine  in  the  same  circuit 
with  a  motor.  CUIt 

x-Q.  203.  Was  the  exact  device  illustrated  in 
figuies  a  and  G,  the  same  combination  of  parts,  and 
the  parts  acting  together  in  the  same  wav  eve,  , 
where?*”  Pn,0U”  byy°U  nt  Mclll°  ^‘rk  or  else-' 

T,  do  not  ^member  that  it  differs  in  any  re- 
455  sPecfc  from  that  shown  in  figures  5  and  0.  It  was 
originally  put  on  the  locomotive  and  is  still  on 

toe  Mbit  is.  b  shown  111  Ex- 

A.  The  handle  of  the  reversing  lever  protrudes 
from  he  box  in  a  line  with  the  knee  of  the  nemo, i 
who.  1,c,s  1,01,1  of  the  brake.  All  the  other  ap- 

PT?SoosX  7*  tIHhandle’  "  ann*  'V  *■»  "ox 

upon  a  stalionary  engi'ne'f  Peif01™  "'hen  mol,nte(1 

Thomas  A.  Ediso 

bobbin  would  be  reversed  upon  the  moving  *0/ 
ocomotive  when  the  switch  was  turned;  and  if  the 
switch  was  on  the  locomotive  the  current  through 
the  bobbin  •would  be  e  e  sel  1  o  t]  ,  itch  as 
turned;  to  that  extent  the  functions  are  the  same. 

x-Q.  209.  M  figure  3  is  shown  a  main  driving 
axle  upon  which  is  mounted  a  friction  wheel, 
also  a  friction  pulley  mounted  upon  a  shaft  of  the 
armature;  is  any  friction  wheel  upon  the  driving 
l\x  ®:  °J'any  fl'iction  wbeel  mounted  upon  the 
shaft  of  the  armature  shown  in  any  one  of  your  ex-  458 
mbits,  from  1  to  13  inclusive? 

A.  No,  sir. 

x-Q.  210.  Were  any  such  friction  wheels  re¬ 
duced  to  practice  by  you  at  Menlo  Park  or  else- 
tory?'°’  '1S  th°Se  mentionea  in  t],e  ]ast  hiterroga- 

A.  No  such  reduction  to  practice  on  an  electric 
railway  was  made  except  on  the  locomotive  at 
Menlo  Park  m  the  May,  1380,  trials. 

x-Q.  211.  Please  state  the  extent  of  the  reduction  159 
to  practice  of  such  devices  upon  the  electric  railway 
at  Menlo  Park;  I  mean  by  that  how  long  were  they 
m  operation  and  did  thev  perform  their  work  suc¬ 

A.  The  locomotive  was  started  with  these  fric¬ 
tion  wheels  and  ran  some  short  distance  when  one  of 
them  broke,  and  belts  were  substituted. 

x-Q.  212.  What  was  done  with  them  after  they 
were  thus  broken? 

A.  They  were  stored  away;  I  think  I  have  them  *60 
now  at  Menlo  Park. 

x-Q  213.  Were  they  ever  used  again  or  was  their 
use  abandoned  by  you? 

A.  The  wheels  were  not  used  again  by  me.  The 
use  of  friction  gearing  has’ not  been  abandoned  by 
me,  as  I  have  recently  designed  an  electric  locomo¬ 
tive  containing  friction  gear.  The  particular  wheels 
used  have  not  been  abandoned  by  me,  except  the 
broken  one. 

x-Q.  214.  Were  those  friction  wheels  concerning 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

48!  which  you  have  just  testified,  used  again  by  you  in 
connection  with  the  electric  railway? 

A.  No,  sir;  those  particular  wheels  have  not  been 

put  m  use  as  yet  except  as  testified  to. 

x-Q.  215.  Have  wheels  exactly  similar  to  them, 
been  put  m  use  as  yet;  if  so  when  and  where? 

A.  Ao,  sir;  not  exactly  similar  to  them. 
x-Q.  210.  In  the  same  figure  is  shown  a  swinging 
frame  upon  which  is  mounted  a  friction  pulley-  is 
any  such  swinging  frame  shown  in  any  of  vour  ev 

462  mbits  from  1  to  14  inclusive’ 

A.  A'o,  sir. 

x-Q.  217.  Was  any  such  swinging  frame  ever  re- 
duced  to  pmchce  by  you;  if  so  when  and  where? 

A  On  the  first  locomotive  in  the  May,  isso,  trials 
of  the  electric  locomotive  at  Menlo  Park. 

x-Q.  21S  For  how  long  a  time  was  that  swinging 
fimneusedonthe  electric  railway  at  Menlo  Park? 

A.  That  particular  swinging  frame  was  only  used 
one  day,  and  I  am  not  sure  but  that  the  same 

463  swinging  frame  was  used  with  a  pulley  as  a  belt 
tightener  since  that  date  up  to  the  present  time 

x-Q.  2 ltl.  Was  that  swinging  frame  ever  used 
again  m  connection  with  the  friction  pulleys  of 
"  hich  you  have  before  testified?  J  . 

A.  It  was  not  used  again  in  connection  with  the 
friction  pulleys  e,  a. 

x-Q.  22°  fa  there  any  exhibit  in  this  case  which 
illustrates  the  manner  in  which  the  swinging  frame 
was  used,  after  being  used  in  connection  with  the 

464  friction  pulleys? 

bitAi5ItlSPaitiallySh°'Vn  'n  tllC  Photofil'aPb  Exlii- 

2;1;  The  combination  of  the  swinging  frame 
and  the  friction  pulleys  was  given  up  by  you  at  the 
was'i^  not?  ‘  y°U  l'emovu(1  the  Motion  pulley, 

r  tA',^tell,°ne  of  tbo grooved  friction  pulleys  broke 
I  took  the  three  off,  laid  them  aside,  and  substituted 

11,ulleys-  Nation  pun  • 

howe\  ei,  was  kept  m  the  frame  to  control  the 

Tliomas  A.  Edison. 

clmnismet"’eeM  prime  moto1' n,,d  the  '"ovingme-  405 

-  l~--  Is  ,that  Motion  pulley  which  was  kept 

111  the  frame»  shown  in  any  exhibit  in  this  ca«e 
A.  No,  sir. 

f23'  H°"' Iong  was  1-1  kL‘Pt 111  the  frame? 

A  The  grooved  friction  pulley,  I  do  not  think  was 
kept  in  the  frame  more  than  a  day  or  so,  but  I  am 
not  absolutely  certain,  because  I  am  uncertain  as  to 
whether  the.  same  frame  was  used  with  another 
friction  pulley  in  the  manner  shown  in  Exhibit  400 

x-Q.  224.  How  is  it  shown  with  another  friction 
pulley  m  Exhibit  No,  15? 

A.  It  is  the  lever  grasped  by  the  man  having 
hold  of  the  brake  handle. 
x-Q.  225.  What  function  does  it  there  perform? 

A.  It  serves  to  control  the  work  between  the 
prime  motor  and  the  point  where  the  work  is  to  be 

x-Q.  226.  What  do  you  mean  by  “controlling  the  407 
work  between  the  prime  motor  and  the  point  where 
the  work  is  to  be  done?” 

A.  The  work  to  be  done  is  the  turning  of  the 
driving-wheels  on  the  locomotive.  Devices  connect 
these  driving-wheels  with  the  source  of  power  and 
the  friction; pulley  and  lever  serve  to  increase  or  di¬ 
minish  the  amount  of  work  done  between  the  point 
where  the  work  was  done  and  the  source  of  power 
or  motion  of  the  locomotive. 

x-Q.  227.  In  Figure  3  are  shown  magnets  sus-  4fis 
pended  from  a  frame,  so  that  their  poles  are  over 
and  in  immediate  contiguity  to  the  rails,  from  which 
a  circuit  extends  to  the  arm  so  that  they  are  in  im¬ 
mediate  circuit  from  the  track;  are  these  devices 
shown  in  any  Exhibit  from  1  to  15  inclusive? 

A.  ATo,  sir. 

x-Q.  22S.  Were  such  magnets  suspended  from  the 
frame  ever  reduced  to  practice  in  connection  with 
an  electric  railway  by  you;  if  so,  when  and 


Thomas  A.  Edison. 

4G9  A  I  don't  remember  whether  I  tried  the  export- 
j“e“  mth°nt  searching  over  all  my  data, 

but1  caH  to  mind  experiments  in  the  laboratory 
Itn  nn  electl'°  magnet  to  ascertain  constant  attract¬ 
ive  power,  with  which  to  obtain  date  as  to  the 

“traCti0"  °f  a"  e'eCtHc  obtaina- 

ole  by  these  means. 

1  f°  not  fk  you  anytliing  about  expert, 
inents,  but  when  and  where  magnets  suspended  by 
470  if”1  J0?  111  F,g'  3  ™  reduced  to  prac 
470  tice  or  practically  used  by  you,  in  connection  with  or 
as  a  part  of  an  electric  locomotive  or  railway? 

A.  In  the  middle  of  May,  1880,  I  connected  two 
non  bars  forming  the  polar  extension  of  the  field 
magnets  of  the  electro  .  motor,  thus  being  an  elec- 
tro  magnet,  the  ends  of  the  bars  being  in  close 
proximity  to  the  wheels,  which  were  thus  mag! 

stated  to  m?6  t0-tl,U  track'  But  1  hilve  already 
stated  in  my  previous  answer  that  I  could  not  re- 

471  whether  I  had  !0111!  to  my  memoranda 

471  whethei  I  had  used  magnets  suspended  from  a  frame 

pieuseh' m  the  manner  shown  in  Pig.  3  of  my  an- 
plication  m  interference.  I  have  an  imprlfo 
that  I  did  try  such  experiment  in  May,  1S80P 
x-Q.  230.  Who  was  present  at  the  experiments 
concerning  which  you  have  last  testified  ?T 

to  0CafT”bel; wh0  was  P«- 

x-Q.  231.  If  you  had  made  such  an  experiment 

rCqUired  the  -othei 

472  A  Yes,  sir,  I  think  I  would;  but  what  particular 

the  manner  shown  in  figure  3.  1  y 

the'^ni82'  rVith.  [ucrease  °f  motion  of  the  train 
the  power  diminishes,  in  an  electric  railway,  does 

By  consent,  the  taking  of  further  testimony  was 

Thomas  A.  Ediso 
ostponed  to  Friday,  November  2, 

Bv  Witness:  In  accordance  with  my'prom- 
ise  I  produce  photographs  of  the  locomotive 
ana  its  several  parts. 

Counsel  for  Edison  puts  in  evidence  photo¬ 
graphs  marked  Edison’s  Exhibits  Nos.  16  i; 
is,  10,  20,  21,  22,  23  and  24  respectively.  ’ 

.  Bv  Counsel  Eon  Edbox: 

State  briefly  what  eacli  of  these  several  views 

ust  represents  part  of  the  mechanism 

used  on  the  locomotive  when  worm  and  worm 
wheel  gears  were  used.  Exhibit  17  shows  one  of 
the  driving  wheels  of  the  locomotive,  the  rim  beimr 
insulated  from  the  hub,  the  current  passing  dowS 
™f  r®,81"?81'  *1°  a  bl'aSS  cylinder»  uI»n  the 

n  “  i  A  .i'11®’13  bnisil  mbs>  the  brush  being  con¬ 
nected  to  the  motor  on  the  locomotive.  Exhibit  IS 
shows  the  same  character  of  wheel  and  contact  on 
the  back  wheels  of  the  locomotive.  Exhibit  19  shows  4 
the  circuit  opening  and  reversing  switch  on  the  In 
comotiNP  Exhibit  20  is  a  side  view  of  the  locomo- 
tive.  Exhibit  21  is  another  view  of  the  locomotive 
Exhibit  22  is  a  back  view  of  the  locomotive.  Ex¬ 
hibits  23  and  24  still  other  views  of  the  locomotive. 
Cross-examination  nv  Mu.  Whitman  resumed. 

x-Q.  233.  Your  prominence  in  electrical  matteis 
during  the  last  five  years  has  caused  you  frequently 
to  be  thrown  in  contact  with  electricians  and  treii- 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

W7  ha“ ir„ot?tUreSted  ''n  the  a,,plication  of  e'ectricity, 
A.  Very  few  of  them. 

u"  "*M  « 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

,*'Q:  f 5-  The  Large  number  of  patents  which  you 
have  taken  out  during  the  hast  few  yearn,  make  rt 
necessary  for  you  to  keep  pretty  thoroughly  posted 
"'?X  *°.1,1Ventions  '»''de  by  others,  does  ft  not? 

nt  re?'  A?',10t  -vou  supplied  at  Menlo  Park  or 

terested^H  r  C°mpauies  in  whicI'  you  are  in- 
te rested  Pith  publications  relating  to  the  latest  an 
plications  of  electricity?  ap' 

x-Q.237.  How  long  have  you  been  supplied  at 

479  which  you  are  co  th6 °f  tho  <:omP-anies  with 
to  the  lore  t  ?nnf.Cted  w,th  Publications  relating 
to  the  latest  applications  of  electricity?  ** 

A.  I  have  been  supplied  since  istv! 
imblications  which  relate  to  the  applications^ 

x-Q.  238.  What  month  in  1S78? 

A.  I  think  during  the  whole  of  1S7S 

mr^svzir'  ™  -  '■«"»«*- 

x-Q.  240.  Please  mention  the  publications  relating 

aLZ,1""™'  * l"’  “w* -****, 

ican,  The  Journal  of  the  Society  of  Telegraph  Engi-  481 
neers,  and  some  German  and  French  papers  devoted 
to  science. 

x-Q.  242.  You  were  supplied  then  with  about  all 
the  periodical  literature  published  in  this  country 
and  abroad,  relating  to  electricity  and  its  applica¬ 

A.  I  was  supplied  with  a  large  portion  of  it,  but 
I  didn’t  read  it  because  I  couldn’t,  except  the 
English,  and  I  had  very  little  time-to  read  that.  I 
plunged  ahead  independently  of  what  other  people  482 
were  doing,  and  the  publications  were  used  by  my 
solicitors  as  means  of  reference  when  one  of  my 
applications  was  interfered  with  by  the  application 
of  others. 

x-Q.  243.  Do  you  refer  to  solicitors  employed  by 
you  in  the  year  1S7S? 

A.  V  es,  and  later.  The  intention  was  to  collect 
all  these  publications  so  that  at  some  time  I  should 
have  a  complete  set  of  works  for  hunting  up  refer¬ 
ences  given  me  by  the  Patent  Office.  483 

x-Q.  244.  Who  were  your  solicitors  in  1878,  to 
whom  you  refer? 

A.  L.  W.  Serrell. 

x-Q.  245.  Do  you  think  of  an}'  prominent  period¬ 
ical  publications  relating  to  electricity  and  the  ap¬ 
plications  of  electricity  with  which  you  were  not 
supplied  during  the  year  1S7S,  from  January  1st  to 
December  31st  inclusive? 

Counsel  for  Field  and  Siemens  call  atten- 
tion  to  the  fact  that  the  witness  before  an¬ 
swering  the  question  refers  to  memoranda. 

A.  I  was  not  supplied  with  11  Nuevo  Cimeulo, 
and  many  othere  of  which  I  have  a  memorandum. 

x-Q.  24G.  Can  you  state  from  memory  without 
memoranda  any  other  periodical  publications  relat¬ 
ing  to  electricity  and  its  applications  with  which 
you  were  not  supplied  during  the  year  1S7S? 

A.  The  Quarterly  Journal  of  Science. 

x-Q.  247.  Were  you  supplied  with  the  same  period- 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

485  ical  publications  relating  to  electricity  and  its  appli¬ 
cations  in  the  year  1S70,  with  which  you  were  sup¬ 
plied  in  the  year  187S? 

A.  I  have  not  taxed  my  memory  so  that  I  could 
use  it  as  a  catalogue  to  my  library,  and  therefore 
don’t  remember. 

x-Q.  24S.  Do  you  recollect  any  periodical  publica¬ 
tions  relating  to  electricity  and  the  applications  of 
electricity  with  which  you  were  furnished  during 
the  year  1S79;  if  so,  state  all  which  you  can  remem- 

486  ber? 

A.  I  cannot  remember  with  certainty  any  one 
periodical  publication  that  I  am  absolutely  certain 
I  took  in  1879.  I  took  a  great  many.  I  paid  no 
attention  to  them.  They  were  piled  away  in 
drawers  and  only  brought  out  when  any  particular 
thing  was  desired  to  be  found.  Many  of  the  weekly 
publications  were  cut  up  and  pasted  in  scrap  books 
by  some  person  around  the  laboratory. 
x-Q.  249.  Who  was  the  poison  who  cut  up  those 

487  papers  and  pasted  the  extracts  in  scrap  hooks  ? 

A.  Two  young  men  named  Jelil  and  Herrick,  and 
others  whom  I  do  not  now  recall  to  memory. 

x-Q.  248.  Where  are  those  young  men  whom  you 
have  named  now  ? 

A  Mr.  Jelil  is  employed  by  the  Edison  Electric 
Light  Company,  at  their  test  works  in  Goerck 
street.  I  don’t  know  where  Mr.  Herrick  is. 

x-Q.  249.  Have  you  any  reason  to  suppose  that  you 
were  not  supplied  with  the  same  periodicals  relative 
4SS  t0  electricity  and  its  application  in  1S79  as  in  IS78  > 

A.  I  have  no  supposition  about  it,  I  don’t  know 
whether  I  was  or  not. 

x-Q.  250.  Were  these  extracts  which  were  pasted 
m  scrap  books  placed  there  for  your  perusal  ? 

A.  They  were  pasted  there  to  form  books  of 
reference  in  future  patent  cases. 

x-Q.  251.  Have  j-ou  referred  to  any  of  those  scrap 
°°°^  tlurlns  the  direct  or  cross  examination  in  this 

A.  My  counsel  brought  three  scrap  books  which 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 


were  here  when  I  came,  and  I  have  glanced  over  4S9 
them  slightly. 

x-Q  252.  Why  did  you  glance  over  them? 

A.  To  find  the  date  of  Mr.  Field’s  patent,  as  my 
counsel  was  under  the  impression  that  he  saw  it  in 
a  scrap  hook. 

x-Q.  253.  Were  you  in  the  habit  of  reading  or 
glancing  over  the  articles  which  were  pasted  in  the 
scrap  books  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  about  seventy-five  or  a  hun¬ 
dred  scrap  books,  and  they  are  not  used  except  by  490 
my  solicitors  to  hunt  up  references.  I  rarely  look 
at  them. 

x-Q.  254.  Are  the  parties  who  make  the  scrap  books 
or  the  solicitors  who  use  them  in  the  habit  of  call¬ 
ing  your  attention  to  scraps  or  articles  which  they 
think  would  particularly  interest  you  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  everything  relating  to  electricity  is 
cut  out  and  pasted  in  books  under  different  subject 
matters.  J 

x-Q.  255.  Do  you  mean  that  you  have  a  subject  491 
matter  index  for  these  hooks,  or  that  articles  are 
arranged  according  to  their  subject  matter  ? 

A.  Articles  are  arranged  according  to  their  sub¬ 
ject  matter;  that  is,  it  is  intended  that  they  should 

x-Q.  250.  How  are  the  articles  relating  to  the  elec¬ 
tric  railway  arranged  ? 

A.  I  don’t  know;  I  don’t  remember  ever  seeing 
a  scrap  book  devoted  to  electric  railroads.  I  have 
never  consulted  my  scrap  books  on  the  subject  of  492 
electric  railroads,  except  last  Wednesday,  as  stated. 

x-Q.  257.  Are  these  scrap  books  used  in  making  ex¬ 
aminations  as  to  the  novelty  and  patentability  of 
inventions  by  your  solicitors -and  others,  at  or  be¬ 
fore  the  time  of  making  application  for  Letters 
Patent  in  your  name  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  they  are  used  for  the  purpose  of 
making  arguments  and  in  connection  with  refer¬ 
ences  given  by  the  Patent  Office,  and  also  in  rela¬ 
tion  to  previous  publication  in  connection  with  ap¬ 
plications  for  foreign  patents. 

193  j£?\HaVV0U  applied  for  fo,eiKn  patents 
foi  the  electric  railway;  if  so,  when  ami  where! 

know  wh;,r  (,0n;t  kn°"'  Wh6n’  “nd  1 
-x-Q.  259  In'  what  foreign  countries  have  patents 
been  granted  to  you  for  the  electric  railway? 

A  My  impression  is  that  I  have  a  patent  in 

Staff  F,’"c'' 

x-Q  290.  Have  you  not  also  a  patent  in  Canada? 
94-  A-  *  don  t  remember. 

fo1X,lt!!;f-°pOU  remember  making  application 
Iwtt “»  "8"- 

A  AT°  sir.  I  don’t  remeniher:  but  it  is  verv 
possible  I  have  applied  for  a  patent  in  Canada.  ’ 

«  ™t“n?  y°11  t0  “y  thilt  marches 

‘  11  ,ad(lm  Wle  scrap-books  before  making  appli- 
cation  tor  foreign  patents;  were  such  searches  made 

for  mte01‘tP’bf°Ok*i  bef<Jru  ,nakinK  tlle  application 
■„  foi  patents  for  the  electric  mil  wav,'  concerning 
which  you  have  testified!  *= 

A.  Y°u  dul  not  understand  nni  right.  I  did  not 
say  they  were  made  before  applications  for  patents; 

I  stated  that  they  were  used  in  relation  to  the  previ- 
ous  publication,  m  connection  with  applications  for 
foreign  patents.  I  don’t  remember  of  any  seme 
being  made  previous  to  the  preparation  of  he 
We^fananphcationfcra  patent  in  fore^ 

8  x-Q.  m.  Was  Mr.  Serrell  your  solicitor  during 
the  years  1S7S,  1S70  and  1880? 

lS^i  ^  "aS  myS°licitor  du,'i,,K  the  years  lS7s  and 

x-Q.  204.  Do  you  remember  any  conversations 
0  1  regarding  the  electric  railway,  during 
the  years  1S7S  and  1879?  . 

A.  I  don’t  recall  any. 

Wfre  y°U  in  ‘he  habit  during  the  years 
1S‘°  alld  /.fO,  of  placing  machines  ami  hi: 

ssr  ■*  s“  >«- 

1  '™*  »»• » m*  or  m„s  * 

x-Q.  .hi).  Do  you  remember  whether  anv  m-i  497 
chines,  constructed  or  invented  by  you  were ’id-.  •»  1 
Exposition'in  yo11  or  yoU1'  "gents  at  the  Berlin 
A.  Not  to  my  knowledge 

y”"  “ 

A.  I  think  about  March’  ISmi. 

•it 'that  '”!!!•',  D"  -vo,‘  remember  to  have  heard  that 
m-i.  !-i  •  S  1011  t,l;,'L“  "'i,S!,n  electric  rail  wav  ,ps 
,  .  V1'?*  ‘l!?  ,,,a"V  «N  100,090  people  were  con- 
'kiei  during  the  spring  and  summer  of  1879? 

x-Q.  209.  No,  sir;  I  never  heard  that  there  was 
an  electric  railway  at  the  Berlin  Exposition  which 
carried  ion.000  people.  I  remember  that  there 
was  an  electric  railway  at  the  Berlin  Exposition 
x-Q.  2i0.  Is  any  description  of  that  railway  con¬ 
tained  m  j-our  scrap-books? 

, A;  .I.fn<l  V  0110  of  mJT  scrap-books  devoted  to 
S‘!lJ  a!]d  railways,  a  description  of  Siemens’s  499 
elec  ical  railway  shown  in  the  Berlin  Exposition,  in 
the  Manufacturer  and  Builder”  of  October,  1SS0 
x-Q.  271.  Do  you  remember  any  other  description 
contained  m  your  scrap-book,  besides  that  to  which 
you  have  referred? 

A.  I  will  refer  to  the  scrap  book  devoted  to  rail¬ 
ways,  and  see.  I  find  no  description  of  an  electric 
railway  m  ray  scrap  book  previous  to  August  10,  issn. 

^ x-Q.  272.  Do  you  lake  a  periodical  called  “La 
Nature  or  were  you  supplied  with  such  a  paper  50<i 
during  the  years  1S7S,  IS79  and  1SS0.  1  500 

A-  1  don‘f  remember  whether  I  took  it  in  1S7*  0r 
1 9,  but  I  remember  seeing  such  a  paper  in  1SS0.  I 
never  remember  of  having  read  a  word  of  that 

x-Q.  273.  Do  you  remember  having  your  attention 
called  to  an  article  m  “  La  Nature”  relating  to  the 
Siemens  electric  railway? 

((  A-  siv-  1  never  remember  seeing  an  article  in 
“  La  Nature”  about  Siemens's  electric  railway. 


Thomas  A.  Edison. 

601  ,„VQ  ?'*•.  ^  “  Det'  Teolmikor''  among  the  iwnets 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  take  it. 

27i!',  ?°  you  remember  of  having  vonr  at- 

A.  No,  sir. 

“  SefonHfie  -tl10  '*est‘riPt'“n  published  hi  the 

m  hg  ™“  a1dn,‘"r,  °'w?  “• ,sso’ 

A-Thearhcle  was  not  furnished  by  me. 
x  y.  -  <  7.  Do  you  remember  conversinc?  with  n  »•»« 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

tt1*”' z  d£Lf 


•  A.  I  don’t  know.  Mr.  Brook  nf  n,„  «  0  •  .... 

504  American,”  came  down  to  Menlo  Pa.k  with  one  ? 

o”STedto1rr0deOVei‘the  raih'°a'1’  whicl>  I  briefly 
x  O  osi  w  ’  Tn",g0nly  a'>out  two  horn/ 

A.  I  don’t  remember. 

thfsLtns  eScb  raS°  Cail?  Z  “““““  to 

tlmt  any  description  of  Siemens’s  electric  raihvay'was 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

published  in  this  country  until  after  mine  was  built 

Some  of  nr80"  r>U]d  have  caIletl  "iy  attention  to 
borne  of  my  assistants  might  have  called  to  mv  at 

milwav  W  S,?7,S  T  worki,,K°“  “"Metric 

2i2-J£.  p“1"'  ■»  'i*»« 

sation'  wil'li y°i‘  ,ei«emljer  having  any  conver- 
'  J  .  '  ]1VI'UC:S1  “ncemiug  the  Siemens 

Sould  „  *'  wherem  you  state<1  to  him  that  it 

ivouldnot  answer  your  purpose; 

2S+'  D°/°U  •’'-‘member  any  conversation  be- 
tveen  yourself  and  Mr.  Batchelor  concerning 
biemens  s  electric  railway; 

A.  Not  any  particular  conversation. 

wln?e'v!f;  D°  y°U  re.n,emI,el'  all-v  conversation 
'  01  “»>’  mention  of  the  Siemens  electric 
railway  by  Mr.  Batchelor? 

A.  I  think  we  talked  about  his  railway  after  we 
celaTi  resukf ln&  W°ndeHnK  W he  accomplished 
x-Q.  2, SO.  Do  you  remember  to  have  had  any  con 
versation  with  Martin  Force,  Francis  R.  Upton  • 
Thomas  Logan,  Charles  Flammer,  Charles  Dean  or 
0tt>  concerning  the  Siemens  electric  rail- 

A.  No,  sir;  J  don’t  remember  any  particular  con¬ 
versation.  I  have  probably  talked  to  them  at  times 
on  this  subject.  I  have  not  talked  to  these  people 
nor  to  Mr.  Kj-uesi  or  Hornig  atjill  regarding  electric 
railway  matters  for  several  months,  so  as  to  be  able 
to  refresh  my  memory  as  to  conversations,  and  I 
have  not  read  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Kruesi  or  Homig 
or  heard  it,  so  as  to  refresh  my  memory  of  any  con- 
versationjegarding  electric  railway  matters. 

•  X.’P' 2.8<‘  You  state  that  the  gentlemen  mentioned 
m  the  last  question  were  around  when  you  were 
talking  of  the  electric  railway  in  1S79.  Do  you  re 
member  whether  either  of  those  gentlemen  in  isTO 
called  your  attention  to  any  other  electric  railway 
tnan  that  which  you  claim  to  have  invented. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

009  toyXSiV  d?!‘'t  remen,bor  that  they  did. 

51»  imlhr 

X  O  4n  'T  0f  the1e,ectricn'  raiIroad- 

a.  io  act  as  a  sample. 

’‘fiSmioZ  !S"  ““  ™  “  ««<■ 

M«y.  >#s». 

•  made  the  through  trip?  *  "8  ,'1"1  over  ft  which 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

jar to  a,hlbl‘ 

steam  railways?  ^  tiestles  used  for 

A.  I  don’t  know. 


»SI».lot atpnSI, SiS'"®’  f»»>- 


Jii  f "~"*r«r~  ■»  SS.,r 

■  '  0  not  ask  you  about  estimates,  but 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 


whether  copper  wire  under  the  fish  plate  as  illus-  513 
trated  in  figure  10  of  your  application  drawings  is 
illustrated  by  drawing  in  any  exhibit  from  1  to  1 1 

A.  Only  spoken  of  in  the  manner  I  have  stated. 

x-Q.  29S.  In  figure  4  are  shown  sprocket  wheels, 
a  sprocket  chain,  a  wheel  having  a  grooved  face  se¬ 
cured  to  an  axle  which  is  mounted  in  a  box  adjust¬ 
ably  secured  to  the  frame  by  a  screw;  is  that  combi¬ 
nation  shown  in  any  one  of  your  exhibits  from  1  to 
15  inclusive?  j,, 

A.  No,  sir. 

x-Q.  299.  In  figure  14  is  shown  a  section  of  track 
insulated  from  its  neighbors  but  connected  thereto 
by  wire  conductors,  so  that  upon  such  section  the 
contact  is  reversed;  is  any  such  combination  shown 
in  any  of  your  exhibits,  from  1  to  15  inclusive? 

A.  The  method  of  making  the  connection  and 
means  for  doing  it  are  shown  in  Exhibit  No.  4. 

x-Q.  300.  Would  what  is  shown  in  Exhibit  4 
perform  the  same  functions  as  what  is  shown  in  515 
figure  H  of  your  drawings? 

A.  They  will  and  are  intended  to  perform  the 
same  functions. 

x-Q.  801.  For  how  long  a  time  did  your  electric 
locomotive  used  at  Menlo  Park  run  without  stop¬ 

A.  The  time  it  took  to  go  from  one  end  of  the 
track  to  the  other,  when  it  was  stopped  and  re¬ 
turned  over  tlie  same  track;  this  has  continued  at 
intervals  since  May,  18S0,  especially  in  the  summer  510 
of  ’SO,  when  it  was  run  almost  every  day. 

x-Q.  302.  About  how  long  a  time  did  it  take  for 
the  locomotive  to  go  from  one  end  of  the  track  to 
the  other? 

A.  I  don’t  remember  the  exact  time;  my  impres¬ 
sion  is  that  we  went  over  the  road  and  back  inside 
of  three  minutes. 

x-Q.  303.  For  how  long  a  time  did  the  locomotive 
remain  stationary  after  making  a  trip  from  one  end 
of  the  road  to  the  other? 


Thomas  A.  Edison. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

517  A.  Only  a  few  seconds  generally . 

x-Q.  301.  How  long  a  time  did  the  locomotive  re¬ 
main  stationary  after  making  the  round  trip? 

A.  When  we  had  a  crowd  it  remained  stationary 
sufficiently  to  allow  one  set  of  passengers  to  get  off 
and  another  to  get  on. 

x-Q.  305.  How  many  round  trips  were  ever  made 
consecutively  and  continuously? 

A.  -I  think  as  many  as  15  or  20. 
x-Q.  30*:.  Why  were  not  more  made  than  15  or 
618  20? 

and  it  was  a  free  railroad;  we  didn’t  rmHt  very 
often  except  when  people  came  to  Menlo  Park  who 
desired  to  ride  on  it. 

x-Q.  30,.  Did  you  ever  run  the  locomotive  fora 
long  tune  continuously,  to  find  out  how  long  you 
could  run  it  without  heating  the  armature? 

A.  We  have  run  it  hours  at  a  time  and  the  mo 
tor  was  not  arranged  to  bo  materially  heated  when 
510  doing  its  work. 

x-Q.  808.  You  could  not  run  it  continuously  for 
hours  at  a  time  when  you  had  to  stop  at  each  end  of 
the  road,  could  you? 

A.  When  I  said  “continuously,"  I  meant  stop¬ 
ping  at  one  end  to  take  a  fresh  load  of  passengeis 

upon  the  locomotive  the.  same  as  that  described  in 
"" ‘  “PPhcation  filed  by  you  in  the  Patent  Office, 
^  interference  with  applications 

othms?  Heff"el  A  te"eCk’  Westo"’  Hokoml's,  and 

Jtizz  m *“  v™ 

x-Q.  310.  Do  you  not  remember  filing  a  dis- 
claimer  m  an  interference  in  which  H.  Von  Heffner 
Alteneck  was  one  of  the  parties,  and  in  which  inter¬ 
ference  priority  was  awarded  against  vou  and  in 
favor  of  Von  Alteneck.  1 

A.  I  remember  having  disclaimed  something  to 


keep  out  of  an  interference  with  Von  Alteneck. 
That  is,  I  disclaimed  what  I  had  not  claimed.  I 
know  nothing  about  an  award  of  priority  being 
given  to  Von  Alteneck. 

x-Q.  311.  Was  tile  dynamo  machine  used  upon 
the  electric  locomotive  at  Menlo  Park  the  same  as 
that  described  in  the  application  in  which  you  filed 
the  disclaimer  as  stated  in  your  last  answer? 

A.  I  did  not  use  a  dynamo  machine  on  my  loco¬ 
motive  at  .Menlo  Park. 

x-Q.  312.  What  kind  of  a  machine  did  you  use  ym 
your  locomotive? 

A.  A  magneto  electro-motor. 

x-Q.  313.  Wlint  distinction  do  you  draw  between 
the  magneto  electro-motor  mentioned  in  your  last 
answer  and  a  dynamo  electric  machine? 

A.  A  magneto  machine  is  one  whose  field  magnet 
is  separate  from  the  induction  bobbin;  a  dynamo 
machine  is  one  in  which  the  field  magnet  is  a  part 
of  the  circuit  of  a  dynamo  bobbin. 

x-Q.  314.  Was  the  dynamo  electric  machine  used 
as  a  generator  at  your  station  the  same  as  the  dyn¬ 
amo  electric  machine  described  in  the  application  in 
which  you  have  testified  you  have  filed  a  disclaimer? 

A.  I  did  not  use  a  dynamo  electric  machine  at  the 
station  for  running  the  electric  railroad. 

x-Q.  315.  What  kind  of  a  generator  of  electricity 
did  you  use  at  the  station? 

A.  A  magneto  electric  machine  whose  field  mag¬ 
nets  were  energized  by  an  exterior  source  of  energy 
not  connected  with  the  railroad. 

x-Q.  31*:.  Was  the  machine  which  you  used  at  the 
station  and  which  you  designate  as  a  “magneto 
electric  machine,  whose  field  magnets  were  ener¬ 
gized  by  an  exterior  source  of  energy,  not  connected 
with  the  railroad,”  the  same  as  that  described  in  the 
application  in  which  you  have  testified  you  filed  a 

A.  It  was  very  similar. 

x-Q.  317.  Did  it  differ  in  any  respect  from  the  ma¬ 
chine  described  in  the  application  in  which  you 
filed  a  disclaimer;  and  if  so  in  what  respect? 

\Y  132 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

Thomas  A.  Edison.  133 

525  A.  The  cylinder  on  which  the  wire  was  coiled 
was  made  up  of  thin  disks  of  iron  instead  of  coiled 
wire,  as  in  the  patent  222, SSI. 

x-Q.  31S.  Was  the  eleotro-motoi  which  you  men¬ 
tion  in  your  answer  to  question  312  described  in  the 
application  for  Letters  Patent  in  which  you  have  tes¬ 
tified  you  filed  a  disclaimer? 

A.  The  bobbin  is  similar  with  the  exception  of 
Iron  disks  being  used,  hut  the  field  magnet  was 
wound  with  very  fine  wire  and  connected  to  the 

526  source  of  energy  independently  of  the  induction 
bobbin,  as  is  set  forth  in  figure  Hof  the  drawing  of 
my  application  in  controversy. 

x-Q.  8 11*.  Were  not  the  curved  bars  enclosing  the 
field  of  force  within  which  the  hohbin  revolves  the 
same  as  the  bobbin  and  the  curved  bare  described  in 
the  application  in  which  you  filed  a  disclaimer'; 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  were  nearly  the  same. 

x-Q.  320.  With  what  dynamo  machines  wore  you 
familiar  in  1S72  and  1873? 

627  A.  The  only  dynamo  that  I  was  familiar  with 
was  the  Wilde  machine. 

x-Q.  321.  Does  the  Wilde  machine  use  what  is 
known  as  a  Siemens’  armature? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  322.  Was  it  on  your  way  back  from  Califor¬ 
nia  that  you  first  conceived  of  the  invention  in  con¬ 

A.  No,  sir;  it  was  on  my  way  to  California. 

x-Q.  323.  Your  Exhibits  Nos.  1,  2,  3,  4  and  5  seem 

628  t°  be  made  with  a  peculiar  colored  ink.  Can  you 
state  what  kind  of  ink  was  used,  and  where  you  ob¬ 
tained  that  particular  kind  of  ink? 

A.  It  was  an'  aniline  violet  ink.  In  1870,  I  de¬ 
vised  a  copying  ink  composed  of  aniline  violet  and 
gum  dextrine,  which  was  sold  in  large  quantities 
during  that  year  and  since  that  time  for  copying 
purposes.  1 "  " 

x-Q.  324.  Are  you  familiar  with  Mr.  Kruesi’s 

A.  Yes,  sir. 



x-Q.  325.  Do  you  know  whether  he  is  in  the  habit  529 
of  forming  the  letter  “y”  with  a  loop  or  with  a  di¬ 
rect  down  stroke? 

A.  No.  sir;  I  can  only  tell  his  writing  by  its  gen¬ 
eral  appearance. 

x-Q.  320.  If  you  are  familiar  with  Mr.  Kruesi's 
handwriting,  will  you  please  examine  Exhibits  1,  2, 

3,  4  and  5,  and  state  why  the  final  “y”  of  the  word 
“May”  in  each  of  those  exhibits  is  formed  with  a 
loop,  and  why  the  final  “y”  of  the  word  “tramway” 
is  formed  with  a  straight,  heavy  down  stroke?  530 

A.  I  have  looked  at  the  exhibits  and  can't  tell 
why;  but  by  looking  at  the  other  Exhibits  Nos.  11 
and  8,  I  find  that  the  “y’s”  in  the  words  “May”  and 
“tramway,”  in  both  these  exhibits,  arealike.  I  sup¬ 
pose  the  dates  were  put  011  first,  and  then  imme¬ 
diately  afterwards,  when  the  papers  were  collected, 
he  designated  them  according  to  what  each  referred 
to;  but  this  is  only  a  supposition  on  my  pari. 

x-Q.  327.  You  speak  of  some  sketches  made  in 
September,  1S7S;  do  you  know  what  became  of  531 
those  sketches? 

A.  No,  sir. 

x-Q.  328.  Did  you  show  the  sketches  made  in  Sep¬ 
tember,  1S7S,  to  anybody;  if  so,  to  whom? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  I  did,  but  I  am  not  cer- 

x-Q.  320.  Is  it  not  your  general  habit  to  have  such 
sketches  marked  by  othere,  as  in  the  case  of  Exhib¬ 
its  1,  2,  3,  4  and  5? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  in  1877  all  sketches  were  thus  wit-  532 
nessed,  but  after  I  commenced  on  the  electric  light 
this  rule  was  let  up  on. 

x-Q.  330.  Were  not  paper  wheels,  in  which  the 
run  of  the  wheel  is  insulated  from  the  hub,  well 
known  before  you  contemplated  their  use  on  your 
electric  locomotive? 

A.  I  don’t  know  whether  in  paper  wheels  the  rim 
is  electrically  insulated  from  the  hub  or  not.  I  never 
examined  them  to  ascertain,  but  I  knew  that  paper 
wheels  had  been  used  on  railroads. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 


.  .  : . .  ^  ,,u“  ”'-lu  prior  to  cue  unto  at 

winch  you  contemplated  their  use,  were  they  not? 

A.  I  don’t  know  of  any  case  of  this  kind  where 
such  wheels  have  been  used  on  a  railroad,  except  my 

x-Q.  332.  Do  you  look  upon  your  claims  involved 
in  this  interference  as  being  of  great  value? 

A.  I  haven’t  thought  much  about  the  subject.  I 
should  imagine  them  to  be  of  considerable  value  in 
the  event  of  commercial  introduction  on  a  large 
scale  of  electrical  railroads. 

x-Q.  333.  If  these  claims  are  valuable,  why  went 
they  not  made  by  you  when  you  filed  the  applica¬ 
tion  for  Letters  Patent  involved  in  this  interference? 
A.  I  suppose  that  they  were  made. 
x-Q  334.  Can  you  tell  me  why  the  language  of 
your  claims  involved  in  this  interference  is  the  same 
as  that  of  the  phraseology  used  by  Siemens  in 
535  planning  his  invention? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  cannot.  My  solicitor,  Mr.  Wilber, 
can  probably  be  able  to  identify  them. 

x-Q.  335.  Have  you  been  outside  of  the  United 
States  since  January.  1878? 

’  A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  330.  Where  and  when? 

A.  I  passed  through  Canada  several  months  ago. 
x-Q.  337.  Have  you  been  in  any  other  foreign 
country  except  Canada  since  January  1878? 

630  A-  No’  sir- 

x-Q.  33S.  Where  were  the  axle  boxes  and  journal 
hearings  of  the  wheels,  upon  which  your  locomo- 
tive  is  supported,  obtained? 

A.  I  am  not  sure  whether  we  made  them  at  Men- 
works  °r  W  lether  we  got  them  £roni  a  car-wheel 

x-Q.  339.  What  kind  of  journal  bearings  did  you 
use  for  the  wheels  of  your  locomotive. 

A.  Ordinary  machine  bearings. 
x-Q.  340.  What  kind  of  a  car-axle  box  did  you 
use?  J 



A  W-J 

*  I  f 

A.  Similar  to  those  used  on  street  cars.  537 

x-Q.  341.  Did  you  obtain  the  car-axle  boxes  used 
by  you  from  the  same  manufacturers  who  supply 
street  cars? 

A.  I  have  already  stated  that  I  do  not  know 
whether  we  made  the  axle  boxes  at  Menlo  Park  or 
got  them  from  the  parties  who  made  the  wheels. 

And  I  don’t  know  whether  the  parties  who  made 
the  wheels  build  street  cars  or  not. 

x-Q.  342.  Having  reference  to  the  comparison 
which  you  have  seen  fit  to  draw  between  your  Ex-  538 
hibits  from  1  to  11  and  the  Siemens  electric  rail¬ 
way,  what  means  is  shown  in  Exhibits  from  1  to  1 1 
for  stopping  the  trains,  without  any  explanation 
from  you? 

A.  The  reversible  commutator  in  Exhibit  No.  1. 
x-Q.  343.  I  cannot  see  any  reversible  commuta¬ 
tor  in  Exhibit  1;  will  you  please  designate  which 
figure  on  that  exhibit  you  have  reference  to? 

A.  I  mark  it  “  X." 

x-Q.  344.  Do  you  mean  to  be  understood  that  539 
those  pen  scratches  which  you  have  marked  X 
would  be  understood  by  any  one  to  be  a  reversible 
commutator  without  any  further  explanation? 

A.  The  lever  marked  X  in  connection  with  the 
words  “reversible  commutator”  as  shown  on  the 
exhibit  would  be  at  once  understood  by  one  skilled 
in  the  art.  It  is  as  clear  as  the  dynamo  machine 
marked  B  in  the  same  exhibit.  The  exhibit  is  not 
intended  to  be  a  working  drawing  but  a  rough 
sketch  serving  to  convey  to  an  expert  certain  ideas.  540 
x-Q.  345.  Were  not  such  reversible  commutators 
well  known  prior  to  the  time  that  you  contemplated 
their  use  in  connection  with  an  electric  railway? 

A.  They  were  well  known  to  me  and  my  assist¬ 
ants,  but  my  impression  is,  although  I  am  not  cer¬ 
tain,  that  reversible  commutators  were  known  to 
others,  but  not  in  connection  with  an  electric  rail* 

x-Q.  34«.  Having  reference  to  the  comparison 
just  alluded  to,  what  means  are  shown  for  revere- 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

641  ing  the  direction  of  the  train  in  Exhibits  1  to  II, 
without  the  aid  of  explanation  by  you? 

A.  The  reversible  commutator  is  the  only  means 
shown  in  my  Exhibits  1  to  11  for  reversing  the  di¬ 
rection  of  the  locomotive  on  the  same.  I  moan  the 
reversible  commutator  shown  in  Exhibit  No.  1. 

x-Q.  347.  Having  reference  to  the  same  com¬ 
parison,  what  means  for  permitting  the  crossing  of 
the  trains  are  shown  in  Exhibits  1  to  11  inclusive 
by  the  drawings  themselves,  without  anv  explana- 

642  tion  from  you? 

A.  The  fact  that  I  worked  the  switches  auto¬ 
matically  by  a  current  from  the  station  would  be 
indicated  to  an  expert  in  Exhibit  Xo.  C,  hut  the 
specific  mechanism  yor  accomplishing  this  object 
would  not  he  indicated  by  such  exhibit. 

x-Q.  34S.  Were  not  electro  magnets  patented  or 
used  to  close  a  switch  by  an  electric  current  com¬ 
municated  to  the  magnet  before  you  contemplated 
an  electric  mil  way? 

643  A.  If  you  refer'to  a  railroad  switch  I  don’t  call  to 
memory  any  case  of  this  kind. 

x-Q.  349.  If  the  combination  of  an  electric  motor 
and  governor  is  old  on  a  stationary  engine,  what 
new  function  is  performed  by  the  governor  which 
you  have  described  in  your  application? 

A  Its  new  function  was.  to  control  the  speed  of 
an  electric  railway  locomotive.  Its  other  function 
was  to  relieve  the  strain  on  the  belts  and  the  steam 

644  w,1'16'  I  a,nn°t  aware  that  a  governor  has  ever 
been  used  on  an  electric  engine  combined  with  ma¬ 
chines  for  converting  the  power  of  the  steam  engine 
into  electricity  which  electricity  is  supplied  to  the  • 
electric  motor  by  the  converting  electric  machines 
It  also  performed  another  function  bv  opening  onlv 
a  portion  of  the  circuit  of  the  electric  motor  without 
disturbing  the  other  portion  of  the  electric  motor 

x-Q.  350.  Why  did  you  find  it  necessary  to  refer 
to  a  book  m  answering  the  last  question? 

A.  I  was  trying  to  find  an  application  for  a  gov¬ 
ernor  to  an  electro  motor  having  a  governor  per- 

Tliomas  A.  Edison.  137 

forming  the  functions  I  have  described,  which  ap-  546 
plication  has,  I  think,  been  granted  to  me  by  the 
Patent  Office,  hut  I  couldn’t  find  it,  but  I  find  in 
connection  with  controlling  the  railway  locomotive 
a  caveat  which  is  dated  March  17,  1379,  which  will 
elucidate  my  answers  relating  to  a  reversible  com¬ 
mutator.  The  following  words  occur:  “I  will 
mention  that  for  regulating  the  strength  of  the  cur¬ 
rent  in  a  Gramme  machine  that  the  two  commu¬ 
tator  springs  or  brushes  may  lie  connected  to  a 
rotating  disc,  and  if  placed  at  right  angles  to  their  646 
proper  position  no  current  is  produced  or  power  ab¬ 
sorbed  by  the  machine,  but  if  turned  the  slightest 
toward  the  proper  position  to  obtain  the  maximum 
current,  then  a  current  is  set  up  in  proportion  to 
the  movement.  Hence,  by  turning  the  commu¬ 
tators  we  may  obtain  any  strength  of  current  we 
desire  without  stopping  the  machine  or  causing  any 
greater  consumption  of  power  than  is  needed  to 
generate  the  current.-’ 

All  that  part  of  the  answer  that  is  quoted 
from  what  is  said  to  he  a  caveat  is  objected 
to  by  counsel  for  Siemens  unless  the  caveat 
itself  or  a  certified  copy  of  it  is  produced. 

Notice  is  given  by  counsel  for  Edison  that 
a  certified  copy  of  so  much  of  the  caveat  re¬ 
ferred  to  as  is  quoted  in  the  above  answer  of 
Mr.  Edison  will  he  filed  as  an  exhibit  with  his 


x-Q.  361.  Having  reference  to  Exhibit  t5,  what 
mechanism  is  that  grasped  by  the  right  hand  of  the 

A.  It  is  the  friction  pulley  and  lever. 

x-Q.  352.  What  is  the  object  of  that  friction 

A.  For  increasing  or  diminishing  the  power  be¬ 
tween  the  point  where  the  work  is  to  be  done  and 
the  source  of  power  on  the  locomotive. 
x-Q.  353.  The  mechanism  described  in  your  last 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 



649  answer  is  not  shown  in  any  Exhibits  from  1  to  41 
inclusive,  is  it  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  believe  not. 

x-Q.  354.  Neithei  is  it  shown  in  your  application 
involved  in  this  interference,  is  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  it  is  shown  in  Figure  3.  the  handle / 
and  wheel  i:  i  being  a  friction  wheel  on  the  lever/ 
for  controlling  the  power  between  the  point  where 
the  work  is  to  he  done  and  the  source  of  power  in 
the  electric  locomotive. 

650  x-Q.  355.  Can  you  stale  about  the  number  of  ap¬ 
plications  for  patents  you  have  filed  in  1S7S? 

A.  I  think  about  ten  or  fifteen. 

x-Q.  35(i.  Can  you  state  about  the  number  of 
caveats  you  filed  in  1878; 

A.  I  can’t  remember. 

x-Q.  357.  Can  you  state  about  the  number  of  ap¬ 
plications  for  patents  you  filed  in  1879? 

A.  I  cannot  state  how  many  without  refreshing 
my  memory;  there  might  have  been  ten.  or  there 

651  might  have  been  forty. 

x-Q.  35S.  Was  the  subject  matter  of  any  applica¬ 
tion  or  caveat  filed  by  you  in  1878  or  1S79  of  more 
importance  than  the  electric  railway? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  applications  and  caveats  related 
to  electric,  lighting,  which  in  my  mind  was  vastly 
more  important  at  the  time  than  any  electric  rail¬ 

x-Q  359.  If  you  were  constantly  filing  applica¬ 
tions  and  caveats  in  I87S  and  1S79,  why  did  you 

662  not  apply  for  a  patent  on  an  electric  railway? 

A.  First,  because  I  thought  it  would  keep; 
second,  because  my  costly  experiments  on  the  pro¬ 
duction  of  economical  electro  motors  and  electric 
converting  machines  would  be  valuable  when  they 
were  worked  out  to  form  a  part  of  an  electric  rail¬ 
way  system,  and  the  application  in  interference  was 
only  proposed  when  by  my  experiments  in  electric 
lighting  I  had  reached  a  point  where  I  could  eco¬ 
nomically  convert  motion  into  electricity  and  elec¬ 
tricity  back  into  motion.  When  this  point  was 


reached,  an  electric  railway,  Such  as  I  designed  to  653 
use,  could  he  made  commercially  practicable. 

x-Q.  3(50.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you  fii-st 
heard  that  Mr.  Siemens  was  giving  attention  to  the 
subject  of  electric  railways  about  the  time  that  you 
were  building  your  own  railway  at  Menlo  Park. 

From  whom  did  you  derive  this  information? 

A.  I  don’t  remember. 

Cross-examination  in  behalf  of  Seimens  is 
here  closed. 

Continuation  of  cross-examination  in  behalf  of 
Field,  by  Mb.  Whitkidgk. 
x-Q.  3(51.  Please  look  at  Exhibits  21,  22,  23  and 
24,  and  explain  the  organization  and  operation  of 
the  belt  and  pulley  driving  mechanism  therein 

A.  On  the  revolving  induction  bobbin  of  the 
motor,  as  shown  on  the  left-hand  side  of  Exhibit  21, 
was  fixed  a  pulley  over  which  a  belt  ran;  this  belt 
also  ran  over  the  large  wheel  shown  on  the  back  of  555 
the  motor  on  Exhibit  No.  22.  On  the  same  shaft  as 
this  large  wheel  was  a  smaller  pulley  clearly  shown 
in  Exhibits  23  and  24.  On  this  small  pulley  was 
another  belt,  which  ran  over  a  larger  pulley  on 
the  main  driving  wheels.  This  pulley  is  shown  in 
Exhibit  21,  just  behind  the  commutator  brushes.  In 
Exhibit  23  is  shown  a  lever  with  a  friction  wheel, 
which  wheel  resting  on  a  belt  connected  with  the 
main  drivers  was  used  to  regulate  the  tracting 
power  between  the  belt  and  the  friction  pulleys  on  556 
which  it  ran. 

x-Q.  3152.  Why  was  so  large  a  wheel  used  in  the 
rear  of  the  motor? 

A.  So  as  to  permit  of  the  ordinary  speed  of  rota¬ 
tion  of  the  induction  bobbin,  and  thus  obtaining  the 
power  and  speed  required  by  gearing  down,  so  to 
speak,  to  the  main  drivers. 

x-Q.  3C3.  Would  not  the  speed  have  been  regulat¬ 
ed  or  reduced  more  economically  by  the  use  of 
a  smaller  band  wheel? 


Thomas  A.  Edison. 

x-Q.  304.  Is  the  belt  and  pulley  arrangement  sliowi 

in  these  exhibits  as  described  hv  you,  in  all  respects 
the  same  as  that  which  was  used  upon  the  motor  ii 
May,  1SS0! 

A.  I  do  not  think  there  lias  been  any  alteration, 
except  when  these  devices  have  been  taken  off  tc 
try  others. 

Cross-examination  in  behalf  of  Field  is 
here  closed. 

Re-direct  nv  Gko.  IV.  Dybr,  Couxsbi.  koh  Em- 

Re-d.  Q.  305.  Referring  to  your  answer  to  cross- 
question  102,  had  you  at  the  time  indicated  in  that 
question,  determined  as  to  the  economies  re  lilting 

A.  1  os.  sir:  I  liad  determined  that  a  horse 

19  ors  ■>00<feo  dfbG  de'lvt‘ml  a  motor  on  to  conduct- 

coal  tlnn  it  °m  n  STCe  °f  P0"’0r  for  much  Iess 
oal  tl  n  it  would  take  to  produce  such  power 

Stirisr  “vm6e  n",'em 

Re-d.  Q.  300.  Referring  to  cross-questions  125,  120, 
a,nd  28,  have  you  ascertained  what  was  the 
££  SS?th-  olec^*°  railway  built  by  you  at 

A.  The  total  cost  of  the  railway,  rolling  stock 
0  threfor  f°Perilti"  Mf,'0In  th°  time  !t  was  bldIt  op  to 

i=MSS;mr’wi,safuw  ,uindred  do1- 

?ef0ITine  to  cross-question  132,  have 
nn.  "'dependent  recollection  of  the  date 
"he"  the  sketches  referred  to  were  made  based 
to  Oalttomia  and  a  kno^edg^f 
" llat  >ou  ,ll(1  immediately  afterward? 

Objected  to  by  counsel  for  Siemens  and  for 
h  leld  as  leading  and  suggestive. 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  have  a  recollection  that  they  were 

A.  Edison. 


made  about  the  time  which  the  exhibits  were  dated, 
which  recollection  is  independent  of  the  exhibits, 
and  I  distinctly  remember  ordering  either  Batchelor 
or  Kruesi  to  put  dates  on  the  trestle  work  exhibits 
and  put  them  over  the  shelf  in  our  office,  which  was 
done  the  same  day.  I  think,  that  I  ordered  it  done. 

Re-d.  Q.  3GS.  Referring  to  cross- question  163  and 
164,  state  what  your  pecuniary  circumstances  were 
between  July,  1S78,  and  18S0,  with  regard  to  having 
any  considerable  money  at  any  one  time. 

A.  I  was  embarrassed  for  want  of  money  during 
all  that  period,  because  my  expenses  were  veiy 
heavy  and  I  had  very  little  income  during  my  two 
years’  work  on  the  telephone,  and  contracted  many 
debts;  and  as  the  telephone  was  not  paid  for  in  a 
lump  sum,  but  in  monthly  instalments,  it  took  me 
a  long  while  to  pay  up.  At  no  time  was  I  in  a 
position  during  that  period  to  undertake,  with  my 
limited  means,  an  experiment  costing  so  much 
money.  I  used  some  money  in  conducting  experi¬ 
ments  in  electric  lighting,  which  I  did  not  like  to 
charge  to  the  parties  in  New  York  who  were  fur¬ 
nishing  money  for  experiments  on  electric  lighting. 
Hence  I  assumed  them  and  paid  for  them  out  of  my 
own  pocket. 

Thos.  A.  Edison. 

By  consent,  the  taking  of  further  testimony  was 
postponed  to  Wednesday,  December  7th,  1881,  at  10 
A.  M.,  at  same  place. 

Wm.  H.  Meadowcroft, 
Notary  Public, 

New  York  County. 


Frank  McLaughlin. 

Fraxk  MoLaugiiux,  a  witness  produced  inbehalf 
of  Mr.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  follows,, 
in  answer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  George 
W.  Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison  • 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 
occupation  ? 

A.  Frank  McLaughlin;  ago,  :'.C;  residence,  Oro- 
ville,  California;  occupation,  milling. 

Q.  2.  State  whether  or  not  you  had  oeccasion  in 
the  summer  of  1S7S  to  visit  Menlo  Park  frequently  ? 

A.  I  had  occasion  to  visit  there  frequently. 

Q.  3.  Do  you  remember  the  fact  of  the  absence 
during  that  summer  of  Mr.  Edison;  if  so  where  was 
it  understood  that  lie  had  gone  ? 

A.  I  remember  that  Mr.  Edison  was  absent  and 
that  he  was  West.  I  am  positivo  that  lie  was  in.Colo- 

Q.  4.  Do  you  remember  about  what  time  it  was 
that  he  returned  from  the  West  i 

A.  It  was  the  latter  part  of  July  or  commencement 
of  August.  I  think  the  latter  pait  of  July. 

Q.  5.  Have  you  ever  heard  him  explain  his  sys¬ 
tem  of  electric  railroads,  and  if  so  when  was  the  first 
occasion  of  such  explai.  •tioo  in  your  hearing. 

A.  The  first  time  that  •  .  id  Mr.  Edison  speak 
of  electric  railroads  was  i:  IS7S;  I  think  it  must 
have  been  in  August.  I  can't :  ay  that  it  was  ex¬ 
plained  fully  to  me.  My  knowledge  of  electricity 
was  so  very  limited,  that  I  suppose  I  couldn't  have 
grasped  it  if  it  had  been  explained  fully  to  me. 

Q.  C.  Please  state  the  tirno  of  the  day,  who  was 
present,  and  the  uremiisianccs  under  which  the  ex¬ 
planations  were  made,  so  far  as  you  remember 

A.  It  was  in  the  evening.  There  was  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son,  Mr.  Batchelor,  myself,  and,  I  am  almost  posh 
tive,  Martin  Force  and  George  Carman;  at  all  events 
■itvo  ui;  thy  employees,  who  were  there  loafing  around 
the  table  in  their  shirt  sleeves.  It  was  up-stairs  in 
the  old  laboratory  at  Menlo  Park  Wo  were  sitting 
at  the  table  that  we  used  to  call  the  “phonograph 

table  To  the  best  of  my  belief,  we  were  speaking 
about  sending ;  messages  by  phonograph.  Then  the 
dI^ed  I!?t°  sending  messages  without  wires, 
and  Mr.  Edison  jokingly  said  that  he  had  sent  mes 
sages  without  wires;  that  he  had  sent  them  by 
mail.  That  was  what  wo  considered  a  joke  Then  he 
went  on  to  state  that  ho  would  soon  send  them  by 
electricity  by  an  electric  railroad.  That  was  the 
first  J  ever  heard  of  an  electric  railroad.  He  then 
went  on  to  explain  the  electric  railroad,  making 
some  yawings  or  rough  sketches,  which  were  more 
directed  to  Mr.  Batchelor. 

Q.  7.  Can  you  remember  how,  in  these  explana- 
tiohs,  he  proposed  to  use  electrical  power? 

A.  I  don’t  know  how  it  was  to  be  used.  Ire- 
member  that  it  was  to  be  generated  at  stations  along 

Q.  8  Do  you  remember,  in  those  explanations, 
.  “ndof  machine  was  proposed  to  draw  the 
trains  along? 

.  A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.  9.  Do  you  remember  whether  any  explanation 

vas  made  at  that  time  by  Mr.  Edison  of  particular 
localities  or  purposes  for  which  such  a  road  would 
be  well  adapted?  - 

A.  We  all  spoke  of  purposes  for  which  we  thought 
it  would  be  useful.  I  think  Mr.  Edison  spoke  of  its 
Use  for  agricultural  purposes,  in  new  countries  such 
as  Minnesota  and  Dakota.  He  also  spoke  of  carry¬ 
ing  messages  on  an  elevated  structure,  There 
"ere  so  many  other  suggestions  as  to  uses,  that  I 
can  t  remember  who  made  them  or  what  they  were, 
■r  re™e™b?r  that  I  asked  Mr.  Edison  if  it  could  not 
be  adapted  for  mines. 

Q.  10.  What  kind  of  an  impression  did  these  ex¬ 
planations  accompanied  by  sketches  or  drawings 
m. .  ®  UP°U  you  as  to  the  degree  of  perfection  to 
winch  Mr.  Edison  had  carried  in  his  own  mind  the 
subject  of  electric  railways  ? 

A.  I  am  free  to  admit  that  anything  which  Mr. 
Mison  should  tell  me,  I  should  feel  sure  that  he  was 

rltt  •  Prank  McLaughlin. 


i^”  r™* 


A  QT  «1?°tW  l0“S  Were  -vou  il11  ttiero  together' 

s-c/i^wf  T3S  101'e  f01‘ about  llalf  mi  horn-.  ’ 

*■  h!*  -13-  What  were  those  wlm  w,„~  ,  • 

working  upon?  tle  " 01'king, 

A.  That  I  couldn’t  tell. 


those  about  the  tVoIe?^' mUdl SU1'ln'Ise  am°”g 
veiy  forcibly,  indeed.  ’  ’  1  m,Pi’ossed  me 

“» ■natter,  I  un- 

*°I“  «"  “ -“I "lilt,™”’ 


were  made  bv  othere  bei  "hat  suggestions 

near  as  you  can?  S’  °'  S1'  e  his  language  as 

in  any 

,  Prank  McLaughlin.  lio 

x-'}.  19.  Has  this  general  recollection  been  refreshed 
by  conversation  with  any  of  the  others  who  were 
there  present,  recently? 

A.  No. 

x-Q.  30.  Can  you  explain  more  fully  your  recollec¬ 
tion  of  Mr.  Edison’s  description  of  the  use  of  such 
a  railroad  for  carrying  messages? 

A.  I  remember  that  the  track  was  to  be  built  on 
poles,  and  that  the  small  track  was  to  be  covered 
over.  I  also  remember  there  was  some  talk  as  to 
how  the  messages  were  to  be  stopped.  They  were 
to  be  placed  in  a  cigar-shaped  box  or  chamber  to 
hold  them,  and  then  I  remember  the  question  came 
up  of  how  they  were  to  be  stopped  if  they  traveled 
at  ilie  great  speed  Mr.  Edison  spoke  of. 

x-Q.  21.  Do  you  remember  his  speaking  of  the 
adaptability  of  such  a  railroad  as  means  of  com¬ 
munication  between  a  central  and  branch  telegraph 

A.  No,  I  do  not. 

x-O.  22.  Did  the  others  who  were  in  the  room 
seem  to  be  as  much  struck  with  the  idea  ac  you  were? 

A.  I  can’t  say;  it  is  my  impression  that  Mr. 
Batchelor  had  heard  of  it  before. 

x-Q.  23.  Did  you  see  the  sketches  which  you  say 
Mr.  Edison  drew  in  explaining  the  matter  to  Mr. 

A.  I  did. 

x-Q.  24.  Did  you  hear  Mr.  Edison  say  where  or 
when  ho  got  his  idea  of  the  electric  railway  for 
carrying  these  messages? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  did  not. 

x-Q.  25.  Do  you  remember  anything  about  these 
stations  which  you  speak  of  on  the  electric  railway? 

A.  No,  sir;  only  that  there  were  to  be  stations  on 
the  railroad. 

x-Q.  20.  Your  impression  of  the  completeness  of  this 
conception  of  Mr.  Edison’s  is  based  principally  upon 
your.feeling  that  in  any  electrical  project  spoken  of 
by  Mr.  Edison,  he  was  entirely  posted,  is  it  not? 


I^ank  McLaughlin. 

A.  It  is  based  on  my  knowledge  of  liis  great 
knowledge  of  electricity. 

Cross-examination  by  Charles  S.  Whitman  op 
Counsel  for  Siemens: 

fo"ur9'em'  f ave  you  been  in  Europe  during  the  last 

A.  Tes,  sir. 

x-Q.  2S.  Please  state  the  times  when  you  were  in 

A.  In  ISfS. 

A9Ah>9’s^aVe  y°U visited  Europe  since  that  time  ? 
ou  f '  State  aS  nearly  as  you  cau  tho  exact  date 

ril  £  EC  hl  thiS  your  W 

f'nAbou^the  commencoment'of  August,  1878 

°  you  remember  to  have  heard  of  an 
electric  railway  m  Europe? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

x-Q.  32.  What  other  electric  railways  have  you 
time?  mentl01led  besides  that  of  Edison,  at  any 
..A-.IlT3ead  °f  °ue  during  the  last  electric  exliibi- 



vOTs.tbnbeSt  °f  my  1)elief  1  tavo  not. 
sta^d  Edison 

you  have  testified,  the  date  on*  wbfcTte' “I  fWhlch 
vrire?^  the  idea  of  carrying  messages  by  a  teleUph 

Counsel  for  Edison  obiects  tn  ti,  , 
HeaeTer  mentioned  caiaying  messages'  by  a 

Prank  McLaughlin. 


telegraph  wire;  the  messages  were  to  be  transported 
by  electricity  on  a  covered  and  elevated  track. 

x-Q.  35.  Wei  e  you  employed  at  Menlo  Park  at  the. 
time  the  conversation  between  you,  Mr.  Edison  and 
Mr.  Batchelor  took  place? 

A.  No,  sir. 

x-Q.  30.  How  did  you  happen  to  be  at  Menlo  Park 
at  that  time? 

A.  It  was  soon  after  my  trip  to  Europe,  where  I 
had  be.-n  on  private  phonograph  business,  not  con¬ 
nects!  with  Mr.  E.lison,  as  an  employee  or  agent,, 
and  I  passed  a  good  deal  of  time  at  Menlo  Park  in 
1878  and  the  commencement  of  ’79. 

x-Q.  07.  What  phonograph  busiuess  was  that  to 
which  you  allude? 

A.  It  was  a  private  and  personal  speculation. 

x-Q.  38.  Was  it  based  on  Mr.  Edison’s  patents? 

A.  It  was  based  on  the  novelty  of  the  phonograph. 

,x-Q.  09.  What  connection  did  Mr.  Edison  have 
with  the  business  concerning  the  phonograph,  of 
which  you  have  testified? 

A.  Only  his  royalties  as  an  inventor. 

x-Q.  40.  Who  is  Martin  Force,  concerning  whom 
you  have  spoken? 

A.  lie  was  an  employee  of  Mr.  Edison’s  at  Menlo 

,  x-Q.  41.  Did  you  examine  thedrawings  orsketches 
which  wore  made  by  Mr.  Edison,  concerning  which 
you  have  testified? 

A.  Not  closely. 

x-Q.  42.  Did  you  examine  them  at  all? 

A.  I  looked  at  them  during  the  time  Mr.  Edison 
was  sketching  and  explaining  them.  Being  on  a 
s  ’b  v  1 1  was  not  posted  in  and  rough  sketches  at 
that.  I  could  not  have  understood  them  any  better 
by  examining  them  more  closely. 

x-Q.  43.  Do  you  remember  whether  they  were 
made  with  ink  or  with  a  lead  pencil? 

A.  They  were  ink. 

x-Q.  43.  remember  whether  it  was  in  the 

daylight  or  whether  the  lamps  were  lighted  in  this 
interview  at  Menlo  Park  ? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  there  were  lights  in  the 

room,  but  not  at  the  table  we  were  sitting  at.  There 
were  lights  at  the  end  of  the  laboratory. 

_  x-Q.  44.  The  interview  occurred  then  after  dark' 
did  it  not  ?  ’ 

^  during  riie  oveniug.  It  was  iiot  dark 
there,  to  the  best  of  my  belief. 

x-Q  45.  Wliy  were  the  lights  at  the  end  of  the 
laboratory,  as  you  have  testified,  if  it  was  not  dark? 

nfTv,  i  if  behef  that  the  ]ig,lts  ^re  at  the  end 
of  the  laboratory,  and  ouiy  a  belief.  If  they  were 
ah^ttliepm-poseof  their  being  lit  was  unknown 

intb^rlnmWh^  ^eating  arrangements,  if  any,  were 
yetr. 1  “  CWifornia  d,,ring  that  mrath  or 

tel IMm-rtew 


from  the  West.  hdison’s  return 

West'? 49’  HowI°ug^as  Mr.  Edison  absent  in  the 
A.  I  couldn’t  say. 

A.  .Because  it  was  the  fW  f  t 
his  return.  1  tlme  1  Sllw  Mm  after 

A.  Thd  H°w  d°  you  know  «iat? 
memory;  that  a^db^atiA  "ono  thf '  eft'0I,t  of 

52  x-Q.  You  Jiavo  n«  ah“  °  4 1  Ilgr  Wlth  another, 
of  this  interview,  except  fi‘V"e  the  clate 

son’s  return  from  the SS ?,  ‘  Mr.  Edi- 

from  Europe,  have  you?  '  ftw  3’0U1’ return  ■ 

Charles  L.  Dean. 


A.  My  trip  to  Europe  was  on  such  important  busi¬ 
ness  to  myself  that  it  is  impressed  so  forcibly  upon 
my  mind  that  I  can  use  it  as  a  date  to  refer  to  or 

53  x-Q.  Are  you  connected  in  business  with  Mr. 
Edison  at  present? 

A.  In  no  way. 

54  x-Q.  Have  you  been  connected  in  business  with 
him  heretofore? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  been  connected  with  one  of  his 
companies  for  a  short  time. 

55  x-Q.  Have  you  ever  conversed  with  Mr.  Edison 
concerning  Siemens’s  electric  railway? 

A.  Never. 

Frank  McLaughlin. 

Charles  L.  Dean,  a  witness  produced  in  behaif 
of  Mr.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  follows 
in  answer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  George 
W.  Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison: 

1  Q.  Please  state  .you  name,  age,  residence  and 

A.  Charles  L.  Dean;  age,  forty-two;  residence,  61 
Penn  street,  Brooklyn;  occupation,  machinist. 

2  Q.  If,  during  the  year  ISIS,  you  weht  into  the 
employ  of  Mr.  Edison  at  Menlo  Park,  state  in  what 
month  of  that  year,  and  in  what  capacity? 

A.  I  think  it  was  in  August,  ds  an  experimenter: 

3  Q.  How  long  did  you  continue  in  the  employ¬ 
ment  of  Mr.  Edison  at  Menlo  Park? 

A.  I  commenced,  I  think  in  August,  1S78,  and 
continued  there  until  we  started  the  place  in 
Goerck  street,  which  I  think  was  in’ April,  1881. 

4.  Q.  When  you  went  into  the  employ  of  Mr.  Ed- 
son  at  Menlo  Talk,  did  you  have  knowledge  in  any 
way  that  ho  had  recently  returned  fiom  a  trip  to 
the  West? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

5.  Q.  If  at  any  time  while  you  were  at  Menlo 
Park  you  heard  Mr.  Edison  explain  his  electric  rail- 


Charles  L.  Dean. 

way,  when  was  it  you  first  heard  such  explanation 
from  him? 

A.  I  think  it  was  one  night  in  September,  1S7S, 
he  explained  his  idea  of  an  electric  railway  and 
spoke  about  going  into  it. 

6  Q.  How  full  and  complete  was  such  explana¬ 

A.  He  gave  a  very  full  explanation  of  how  he 
intended  to  build  it. 

7.  Q.  How  did  he  explain  that  lie  proposed  to 
build  his  electric  railway? 

A.  He  first  spoke  about  having  a  central  station 
the  same  as  he  was  going  to  have  for  his  light,  using 
the  rails  for  conductors;  and  he  spoke  about  using 
the  dynamo  on  the  locomotive  on  wheels.  We 
had  quite  a  long  conversation  there  about  (lie  de¬ 
tails  of  it.  Of  course  I  can't  remember  all  that  was 
said,  but  I  was  quite  surprised  when  be  first  men¬ 
tioned  it  to  us.  We  sat  there  talking  all  the  eve¬ 
ning  about  the  matter,  and  he  made  the  remark  at 
that  time  that’he  expected  to  build  a  locomotive  as 
soon  as  he  was  in  condition  to  do  so. 

S.  Q.  Do  you  recollect  whether  or  not  during 
that  explanation  of  Mr.  Edison’s,  he  illustrated  Ins 
meaning  by  sketches  or  drawings? 

A.  Yes;  he  was  always  very  apt  to  make  sketches 
when  he  was  explaining  any  new  idea  that  he  had, 
and  he  made  sketches  that  evening  showing  what 
he  meant  to  do  with  his  idea. 

9  Q.  From  the  explanations  and  sketches  of  Mr. 
Edison  at  that  time  did  you  understand  what  kind 
of  an  electric  railway  he  proposed? 

A.  Yes;  I  thoroughly  understood  it, 

10  Q.  Were  you  familiar  with  the  electric  railway 
which  was  afterwards  built  at  Menlo  Park,  in  the 
■spring  of  1880? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

11  Q.  How  did  that  electric  railway  as  built  com¬ 
pare  with  that  described  and  illustrated  by  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son,  at  the  time  you  mentioned  at  Menlo  Park? 

Objected  to  by  counsel  for  Siemens  and 

Charles  L.  Dean. 

counsel  for  Field,  on  the  ground  that  it  has 
not  been  shown  that  witness  is  an  expert  iu 
electrical  matters,  capable  of  drawing  such  a 

A.  It  was  just  about  the  same  thing. 

12  Q.  Do  you  remember  what  led  up  to  tho  expla- 

of  JIr-  Edison,  on  this  particular  occasion  in 

A.  His  trip  West  was  principally  what  the  conver¬ 
sation  started  on.  • 

13  Q.  In  that  statement  of  Mr.  Edison,  at  the 
time  mentioned,  did  lie  say  when  and  where  he  had 
thought  out  the  matter  of  an  electric  railway? 

A.  Yes;  he  mentioned  that  lie  thought  of  it  on 

his  trip  through  the  West. 

11  Q.  Did  lie  at  the  time  mentioned  explain  what 
lie  considered  would  bo  beneficial  or  desirable  uses 
of  such  a  railway? 

'  A.  He  mentioned  about  the  lrrge  farms  out 
West,  where  they  had  such  difficulty  in  getting  their 
gram  to  tho  principal  stations;  and  he  thought  the 
railroad  could  be.used  in  those  districts  to  great  ad¬ 

15  Q.  When  was  your  attention  next  called  to 
this  matter  of  electric  railways  by  any  action  of 
Mr.  Edison’s? 

A.  I  think  it  was  in  the  summer  of  1S79;  I  can’t 
remember  what  month  that  he  ordered  some  models 
of  trestles  made,  and  also  got  out  some  heavy  tim¬ 
ber  for  large  trestle  work. 

18  Q.  Please  examine  the  models  r.-.:vri;cd  Edi¬ 
son’s  Exhibits  Nos.  12,  10  and  11,  and  state  whether 
or  not  those  are  the  models  referred  to  in  your  pre¬ 
vious  answer?  ' 

A.  Yes,  sir;  those  are  the  models. 

17  Q.  Do  you  remember  when  and  by  whom  they 
were  made? 

A.  Yes;  they  were  made  by  a  man  named  An¬ 
drews,  I  am  pretty  positive.  They  were  made  in  the 
shop  where  I  was  working. 


Charles  L.  Dean. 

A.  lhey  were  sent  in  the  office  whore  they  lay  on 
the  table  for  some  time,  and  were  then  put  on  the 
shelf  in  the  office. 

19  Q.  Were  they  there  when  you  left  Menlo  Park 
to  work  at  the  Goerck  street  shop' 

A.  I  wouldn’t  he  positive  about  that,  but  I  think 
they  were.  I  recollect  seeing  them  there  on  the 
shelf,  nght  over  where  the  wash  basin  was- 
Q.  20.  You  said  something  about  making  a  full 

Sri?  ”*>“**-**  aLnitzi 
°“5SSJ;'  w-  »*. 

x-Q.  21  Wliat  do  you  mean  bv  say  in-  that  v„„ 

wen,  we  used  our  own  idpi«  ,  , 

on  our  experiments  ‘  801110  extent 


A.  Yes;  to  some  extent. 

flo,  and  had  his  opinion  on  it.  llndertook  to 

Charles  L.  Dean. 


some  of  his  contracts,  for  the  purpose  of  experi¬ 

A.  No. 

x-Q.  2G.  Who  was  present  at  the  time  when  you 
first  heard  Mr.  Edison  explain  his  electrical  railway? 

A.  I  couldn’t  exactly  tell.  There  were  a  good  many 
there.  I  remember  Mr.  Batchelor  and  Mr.  Edison’s 
nephew.  I  think  a  man  named  Martin  Force  was 
there  and  Mr.  Kruesi  and  several  others  whom  I 
can’t  exactly  remember. 

x-Q.  27.  Was  Mr.  Frank  McLaughlin  one  of  those 
who  were  present  ? 

A.;  I  don't  know  positively  whether  he  was  pres¬ 
ent  or  not. 

x-Q.  2S.  Was  any  statement  made  about  the  cost 
of  the  locomotive  for  such  a  railway. 

A.  i  don’t  recollect  whether  there  was  or  not. 

x-Q.  29.  Do  you  remember  whether  any  sugges¬ 
tions  were  mado  by  those  present  as  to  the  uses  to 
which  such  a  railway  might  be  put. 

A.  Yes,  I  remember  his  talking  about  putting  it 
in  use  out  West.  I  think  that  Mr.'  Batchelor  made 
some  suggestions.  There  was  a  general  talk  there. 
I  couldn’t  exactly  tell  you  about  what  was  said. 

x-Q.  30.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Edison  make  the  sketches 
of  which  you'  have  spoken  ? 

A.  I 'saw  him  make  some  sketches  the  niglit  we 
were  talking. 

x-Q.  31.  Did  Mr.  Edison  say  when  he  was  going 
to  begin  to  build  this  railroad  and  where  ? 

.  A.  Yes,  he  said  he  was  going  to  commence  it  as 
soon  as  he  was  able  to  and  build  it  at  Menlo  Park  ? 

x-Q.  32.  Was  no  estimate  mado  of  the  cost  at  that 

A.  I  don’t  recollect  of  any  being  made  at  that 

x-Q.  33.  Did  Mr.  Edison  say  when  he  first  thought 
of  this  railroad  ? 

A.  Yes,  he  said  he  thought  of  it  during  his  trip 

x-Q.  34.  Did  he  speak  of  the  time  and  place 

when  he  first  thought  of  it,  any  more  definitely 
than  that?  J 

A  I  don’t  recollect  that  he  did  speak  just  exactly 
of  the  day  or  hour  that  he  first  thought  of  it. 

x-Q.  35.  Mr.  Edison  and  his  employees  were  at  this 
fameaUvery  much  occupied  with  matters  relating 
to  the  electric  hght,  were  they  not? 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  3G.  Do  you  remember  if  Mr.  Edison  defined 
the  reason  why  he  was  not  in  a  condition  to  build 

an  electric  railway? 

A.  He  hadn’t  the  money. 

^idn’t  exact’y  express  it  in  that  way, 
but  it  amounted  to  the  same  thing.  * 

x-Q.  38.  Did  it  amount  also  to  the  same  thimr  as 

sapng  aat  he  hadn^  the  time  as  well  as  the  mofe" 

Te®.  Ibeheve  that’s  about  the  way  he  express- 
ed  himself  about  it,  as  near  as  I  can  recollect  1 

A.  Some  things  I  remember  and  some  I  don’t. 

poftwH4’  0f  further  testimony  was 

0>cSk  l  M°  ThuKda^’  December  8,  1881,  at  10 

Wm.  H.  Meadowcroft, 

Notary  Public, 

New  York  Co. 

was7oXn7]°m™ment' the  takinS  testimony 
was  con  mued  on  Thursday,  December  8,  1881, 

XSS !S.gpresent’ and  **>**• 

aPpa?at!°:  r“berwhat  hind  of  a  gearing 

wheels  Mr  PdiQ660  ^  <lynamo  ani1  the  driving 

Charles  L.  Dean.  15S 

A.  He  spoke  of  several  devices ;  one  was  to  use  a 
belt  and  to  use  a  worm  wheel  and  to  use  a  friction 
wheel ;  ho  also  spoke  of  gearing.. 

x-Q.  41.  Have  you  had  any  conversation  with  Mr. 
Edison  or  Mr.  McLaughlin  within  a  few  days  about 
this  conversation  in  September,  1S7S. 

A.  I  have  not,  except  that  Mr.  Edison  asked  mo 
yest.erday  or  day  before  if  I  recollected  the  conver¬ 
sation  about  September,  1S7S  ;  we  had  no  particular 
conversation  about  the  railway. 

Cross-examination  by  Chaw.ks  S.  Whitman, 
counsel  for  Siemens : 

x-Q.  42.  How  long  have  you  known  Mr.  Edison  2 

A.  About  14  yearn. 

x-Q.  43.  When  did  your  business  relations  with 
him  commence  2 

A.  I  couldn’t  exactly  tell  you  ;  it  was  when  he 
first  started  in  New  York  on  the  Gold  and  Stock 
Telegraph  Apparatus  and  on  the  Automatic  Tele¬ 
graph  Company’s. 

x-Q.  44.  What  was  your  business  relation  with 
Mr.  Edison  during  the  years  1S7S  and  1S79  2 

A.  To  assist  him  with  his  experiments  on  the 
light  and  other  things  he  had  on  hand  at  that  time. 

x-Q.  45.  Were  you  stationed  at  Menlo  Park  dur¬ 
ing  the  whole  year  1S7S  2 

A.  Almost  all  the  year. 

x-Q.  40.  When  did  you  first  hear  an  electric  rail¬ 
way  of  any  kind  spokeir  of. 

A.  When  Mr.  Edison  spoke  of  it  m  o-,.- _ ,.,s, 


*  47  x-Q.  Where  were  you  when  Mr.  Edison  first 
spoke  to  you  of  an  electric  railway? 

A.  In  the  office  of  his  laboratory. 

48  x-Q.  If  others  were  present  at  that  interview, 
state  who  they  were? 

A.  Mr.  Batchelor,  Mr.  Edison’s  nephew,  and  I 
think  Mr.  Kruesi  and  several-others.  I  can’t  exactly 
recollect  who  the  others  were. 

49  x-Q.  Was  that  meeting  held  by  lamplight  or,, 
by  daylight? 

A.  In  the  early  part  of  the  evening. 

50  x-Q.  When  was  the  next  occasion  after  that 
meeting  that  your  attention  was  called  to  the  elec¬ 
tric  railway  by  Mr.  Edison  or  any  one  else? 

A.  I  think  it  was  in  the  following  spring  or  sufn- 
mer,  I  [couldn’t  say  exactly  when.  It  was  when  he 
had  the  models,  Exhibits  12,  13  and  14  made  and 
commenced  to  expernnenfcon  the  railroad. 

51  x-Q.  Are  you  an  electrical  as  well  as  a  mechanr 
ical  engineer? 

A.  I  am  a  mechanic.  I  don’t  profess  to  he  an 

52  x-Q.  I  suppose  your  avocation  as  a.  mechanical 
engineer  renders  it  necessary  for  you  to  keep  posted 
in  the  latest  improvements  in  mechanical  art,  does 
it  not? 

A.  Yes;  but  I  don’t  have  much  time  to  study 
them  up,  ;as  my  business  keeps  mo  very  much 

53  x-Q.  I  suppose  your  avocation  as  a  machinist 
throws  you  into  contact  with  mechanical  engineers 
and  persons  interested  in  mechanical  improvements, 
does  it  not? 

A.  To  some  extent. 

54  x-Q.  You  take  papers,  I  suppose,  relating  to 
improvements  in  mechanical  applications. 

A.  Yes,  hut  sometimes  never  look  at  them. 

55  x-Q.  Do  you  remember  to  have  read  in  any  of 
these  papers  an  account  of  any  other  electric  railway 
except  that  of  Mi-.  Edison’s? 

A.  Yes,  I  think  it  was  this  summer,  and  I  thinlr 
in  the  “Scientific  American ”  that  I  saw  a  cut  of 
Siemens’s  electric  railway— the  first  I  ever  noticed 
about  an  electric  railway  in  a  paper. 

58  x-Q.  Who  called  your  attention  to  the  descrip- 
tion  or  illustration  of  the  Siemens  railway  in  the 
*  Scientific  American \ 

A.  No  one. 

A.  I  had  not. 

•ilaSS ."V !-"»*.  w 

Siemens  railway,  in  winch  arfSj?r  ,esani 

A.  I  can’t  say  that  I  do 

which  was  regularly  delivered  to  you  from 

■  rs  «£?  'd,M‘ 1  iim  *•  «» 

Zhat  °ther  scientific  P“P«*  do  you  take » 
Agtr.The  Amencau  Machinist”  and  the  “lion 

A.  I  did  not. 

*'S'-  Gi:  You  have  fiuite  a  collection  of  scientific 
periodicals  at  Menlo  Park,  I  believe,  iiave  you  not  ? 
Z-  ’  51'-  Edlson  hns  a  la>’So  collection. 

have  acce«  t°  'T  and  ei»l>loyedby  Mr.  Edison 

nave  access  to  those  pubheations  if  you  desire  it? 

A.  Yes,  we  have. 

Dld  y°U  also  llave  301:655  to  those  publica* 
tions  in  the  years  1S78  and  ’79  ?  1 

Charles  L.  Dean. 


A.  Yes. 

^°y°u  read  or  speak  German  ? 
x-Q.  68.  Do  you  remember  ever  to  have  seen  „ 

.  A.  No,  six1. 

rememb!r^,°nWaS  the  &st  persou  ,Wth  "*om  you 
electe  x^S rC<™ed  l'egardi,‘S  th«  Siemens 
A.  I  don’t  recollect  of  any  one 



to  make  sketches  on  si,  l  ’  ""  ■>*  was  his  habit 

about  any  new  idea  of  his.  ^  taliun£ 
same  time  he  wiTm^thoTe  sketehesf011  “*  ^ 

x-Q.  73.  How  long 
these  sketches? 

A.  I  couldn’t  say 
x-Q.  74.  Did  he  use 

was  he  occupied  in  making 
a  pencil  or  pen  in  making 

pen.'  1  C°Uldn’fc  Say  posifcively-  I  think  it  was  a 

™Ved  iuDmS?thorebskettcheks?d  °f  PaP31' that 

Charles  L.  Dean. 


A.  I  can’t  say.  I  think  it  was  common  pads  that 
we  had  in  the  laboratory  for  that  purpose. 

x-Q.  76.  Were  you  as  well  informed  upon  electri¬ 
cal  subjects  at  the  date  of  that  interview  as  you  are 

A.  I  was  not. 

x-Q.  77.  How  long  had  you  been  giving  attention 
to  electrical  subjects  before  this  interview  in  Sep¬ 
tember,  1878? 

A.  I  couldn’t  tell. 

x-Q.  78.  Tell  me  as  nearly  as  you  can. 

A.  It  is  impossible  for  me  to  give  you  any  idea 
about  it. 

x-Q.  70.  How  long  had  you  been  employed  in  the 
construction  of  machines  or  apparatus  relating  to 
the  applications  of  electricity,  prior  to  the  interview 
with  Mr.  Edison  in  September,  1878? 

A.  I  couldn’t  tell  you  how  long. 

x-Q.  SO.  Had  you  been  so  employed? 

A.  I  couldn’t  toll  whether  it  was  one,  t  wo  or 
three  years;  I  worked  on  a  great  variety  of  work; 
some  electrical  and  some  mechanical,  "and  never 
kept  any  memoranda  about  the  time  I  worked  on, 
any  particular  thing. 

x-Q.  81.  What  kind  of  electrical  work  were  you 
engaged  on  prior  to  the  interview  with  Mr.  Edison 
in  September,  187S? 

A.  On  the  lamp  work  for  the  Electric  Light  Com¬ 

x-Q.  S2.  Any  other  elect  rical  work? 

A.  There  might  have  hren,  but  I  can’t  exactly 
recollect  any  other  at  that  time. 

x-Q.  83.  Had  you  done  auv  work  on  a  dynamo 
electric  machine  prior  to  the  interview  with  Mr.  Ed¬ 
ison  in  September,  1S7S? 

A.  I  can’t  say  positively,  but  I  think  I  had. 

x-Q.  84.  What  dynamo  electric  machine,  if  any, 
did  you  work  on  prior  to  the  last  mentioned  inter¬ 

A-  I  couldn’t  tell  you.  So  many  were  being 

Charles  L.  Dean. 

160  Charles  L.  Dean. 

constructed  at  that  time,  it  would  be  impossible  for 
me  to  pick  out  any  particular  machine. 

x‘<3-  85-  Have  you  ever  been  abroad— outside  the 
limits  of  the  United  States? 

A.  I  have  been  in  Canada. 
x-Q.  SO.  When  did  you  last  refresh  your 
memory  concerning  the .  interview  between 
yourself  and  Mr.  Edison  in  September,  1878, 
cause?  comnJgiutothis  building  to  testify  in  this 

A.  When  he  asked  me  the  question  the  other  day, 
if  I  remembered  the  conversation  which  took  place 
when  he  came  back  from  the  West. 
x-Q.  S7.  State  as  nearly  as  you  can  the  conversa- 

A.  Wliat  time? 

-V8-  u  if fei  to  tho  conversation  which  you  say 
took  place  “  the  other  day?”  3 

A.  He  merely  asked  me  if  I  recollected  him  talk¬ 
ing  about  an  electric  railway  when  he  came  back 

“r--  1  t0ld  him  1  did>  That  was  all 
that  took  place  m  regard  to  the  railroad. 

x-Q.  S9.  Do  you  now  hold  or  have  you  held  stork 
Ss!0mPanyf01'metl  f01‘  W°rking  Edison’s 
in  “»  1W.I 

So* 18  “d  14“"M  bo 
eWw  •,  £  an  ordlnaiy  sfeam  railway  as  for  an 
electnc  railway,  could  they  not? 

A.  I  suppose  they  could 

A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

thos^  models?1*61 6  18  th°  lnanAufteews  who  made 
A.  I  couldn’t  tell  you 

x-Q.  94.  Do  you  know  whether  Mr.  Andrews  is 
still  employed  by  Mr.  Edison  or  in  connection  with 

A.  Couldn’t  say. 

x-Q.  95.  How  was  the  room  in  which  the  conver¬ 
sation  occurred  with  Mr.  Edison  in  1S7S  heated— by 
a  stove  or  a  furnace? 

A.  I  think  it  was  heated  by  a  stove;  I  won’t  say 

x-Q.  9li.  Was  there  a  fire  in  the  stove  at  the 
time  of  the  interview? 

A.  Yes,  IJ  think  there  was.  I  am  not  positive 
about  that,  though. 

x-Q.  97.  It  must  have  been  pretty  coolf  all  weather 
then,  wasn’t  it? 

A.  I  don’t  recollect  particularly  about  the 
weather.  I  recollect  it  had  been  raining. 

x-Q.  9S.  What  do  you  mean  by  a  dynamo  electric 

A.  I  mean  by  a  dynamo  electric  machine,  a  ma¬ 
chine  that  generates  electricity. 

x-Q.  99.  Do  you  call  any  machine  used  to  gen¬ 
erate  electricity  a  dynamo  electric  machine? 

A.  No. 

x-Q.  100.  How  is  electricity  generated  by  a  dy¬ 
namo  electric  machine? 

A.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question. 

C.  L.  Dean. 

Counsel  for  Siemens,  as  the  witness  re¬ 
fuses  to  answer  the  question,  declines  to  cross- 
examine  him  further. 

•  Counsel  for  Edison  states  that  the  ■witness 
had  signed  the  deposition  after  notice  given 
by  counsel  for  Siemens  that  he  had  finished, 
and  before  counsel  for  fjiennus  made  the  state¬ 
ment  that  he  would  not  cross-examine  further 
because  the  witness  wouldn’t  answer  his  ques¬ 


Francis  R.  Upton. 

Francis  R.  Upton,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf 
of  Mr.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  fol¬ 
lows,  in  answer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by 
George  W.  Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison: 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 

A.  Francis  R.  Upton;  age,  twenty-nine;  resi¬ 
dence,  Menlo  Park,  N.  J.;  occupation,  manufac¬ 
turer  of  electric  lamps. 

Q.  2.  When  did  you  first  go  into  the  employ  of 
Mr.  Edison,  at  Menlo  Park,  and  in  .what  capacity. 

A.  In  November,  1S7S,  as  mathematician. 

Q.  3.  When  did  you  first  hear  from  Mr.  Edison 
that  he  had  made  any  invention  in  electric  rail¬ 

A.  In  the  winter  of  187S-’79  he  spoke  of  making 
electric  railroads,  as  feeders  for  the  main  lines  of 
roads  running  through  the  wheat  regions ,  of  the 
northwest;  I  think  it  was  in  January  or  February. 

Q.  4.  At  that  time  did  he  give  such  a  description 
of  his  proposed  electric  railway  that  you  under¬ 
stood  what  its  construction  would  be? 

Counsel  for  Siemens  and  Field  object  to  the 
question  as  leading  and  suggestive. 

A.  I  cannot  [now  recollect  that,  at  that  time,  the 
specific  construction  of  the  railroad  was  brought  up 
before  me.  Conversations  that  I  recollect  distinctly 
with  Mr.  Edison  were  regarding  the  field  of  use  for 
an  electric  railway,  more  than  regarding  its  con-  • 
struction.  i 

Q.  5.  Did  Mr.  Edison,  after  that,  request  you  to 
make  estimates  of  the  cost  of  construction  of  an 
electric  railway? 

Same  objection. 

A.  I  made  some  rough  estimates  as  to  the  compa¬ 
rative  costs  of  electric  railroads  and  narrow  gauge 
roads. .  ■  h 

Francis  R.- Upton. 


Q.  6.  Do  you  remember  when  that  was? 

A.  In  February  or  March,  ’79. 

Q.  7.  Do  you  remember  whether  or  not  those 
estimates  included  an  entire  electric  railway,  with 
proper  apparatus  and  furniture? 

Same  objection. 

A.  The  estimates  were  rough  in  their  nature,  and 
included  stations,  road  bed,  tracks,  &c.,  in  both 
cases.  They  were,  however,  chiefly  regarding  run¬ 
ning  expenses.  ■ 

Q.  8.  Did  these  estimates  include  power  in  both 

A.  Yes,  I  recollect  that  wind  mills  were  men¬ 
tioned  as  auxiliary  in  the  case  of  the  electric  rail¬ 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Baldwin,  in  behalf  of 

x-Q.  9  Please  state  what  interest,  if  any,  you  have 
in  Mr.  Edison’s  inventions  or  in  the  companies  or- 
ganized  for  exploiting  them? 

A.  I  hold  shares  of  stock  in  various  electric  light 
companies,  and  liave  charge  of  his  factory  for 
manufacturing  lamps. 

x-Q.  10  Have  you  not  had  since  1S78,  a  continued 
interest  in  some  of  Mr.  Edison’s  inventions  or  in  ■ 
the  receipts  therefrom? 

A.  I  have,  as  regards  the  electric  light. 
Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Whitman,  in  behalf  of 

Counsel  for  Siemens  states  that  he  cross- 
examines  without  waiving  any  objections 

x-Q.  11.  It  was  your  own  idea  making  estimates 
of  the  coSt  of  construction  of  au  electric  railway, 
was  it  not? 

A.  I  made  .  them  at  the  request  of  Mi1. 
Edison,  after  a  discussion  in  which  I  took 
the  ground  that  the  road  would  not  pay.  . 

x-Q.  12.  How  are  you  able  to  fix  the  date  as  being 

rZ?Ze?m'-Cb'  ^^atbeseestiaates 

ter  on  electric  I^hUirf  by  a  5^  ^  followe‘I  af- 


“  “  electric  railway*  "  h*“' of  *»<*  a  thing 

.  ^“TonXTST  I™  “■•  mm. 

libraiy  containing  the  ieadin  ^  ’7S  °1-  a 

tl0r  P“ the  «ons%S  S  PUb,iCa‘ 

a  *■*  ^'ftas-ss 

■i^saur access  to  ti,is  iibraiy  of 


^ffScience  Mo^thly^T?6^ 
recollect.  ,  Jy-  These  are  aU  that  I 


Francis  R.  Upton.  165  . 

formation  in  regard  to  electrical  applications  for  ref¬ 

A.  That  was  the  object,  but  it  woefully  miscar¬ 
ried,  as  the  scrap-books  were  not  kept  up  to  date. 

x-Q.  21.  Do  you  remember  being  present  at 
a  conversation  between  Mr.  Kruesi  and  Mr. 
Edison  in  the  spring  or  summer  of  1879, 
when  the  Siemens  electric  railway  was  being 
discussed  or  mentioned? 

A.  I  recollect  that  the  Siemens  railway  was  a 
topic  of  convei-sation  at  the  Park  after  its  publica¬ 
tion,  and  that  we  all  agreed  that  there  was  nothing 
novel  in  it;  I  do  not  now  recollect  the  special  con¬ 
versation  between  Mi-.  Kruesi  and  Mr.  Edison. 

x-Q.  22.  Who  do  you  mean  by  “  we  all  ”  in  your 
last  answer? 

A.  Mi-.  Edison,  Mr.  Batchelor,  Mr.  Kruesi,  and 

x-Q.  23.  What  publication  do  you  allude  to  in  your 
answer  to  interrogatory  No.  21? 

A.  To  the  best  of  my  recollection  it  was  in  a 
French  journal. 

x-Q.  24.  Do  you  remember  the  name  of  the  French 

A.  I  do  not. 

x-Q.  25.  When  did  this  conversation  between  your¬ 
self  and  Mr.  Batchelor  and  Mr.  Kruesi  and  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son  occur? 

A.  There  was  no  special  conversation  that  I  re¬ 
collect,  where  all  were  present. 

x-Q.  20.  Did  Mr.  Edison  make  any  mention  of  the 
Siemens  railway  when  he  gave  you  instructions  to 
make  estimates? 

A.  The  time  these  estimates  were’made  was,  to 
the  best  of  my  recollection,  long  prior  to  our  know¬ 
ing  that  Mr.  Siemens  was  working  on  electric  rail¬ 

x-Q.  27.  Did  Mr.  Edison  ever  state  to  you  that  the 
Sigmons  railway  was  not  applicable  to  his  purpose? 
A.  Not  that  I  recollect. 

si«S»£a“IM  “«*»»•"  >»o» 

A.  I  cannot  say 

A.  My  recollection  is  that  we  lml  inn*,  ..  . 

all,  as  it  was  about  this  i  n  >  If  .n°Vnte,csfc  mo 
making  his  fiist  con m, .tlrai  ,3Ir'  ®H>«n  was 
the  public  and  mv  tinv.  '  al“1>s  for  exliibition  to 
in  this  direction!"'  “  Cmployed  l^cipally 
X*Q-  29.  Do  you  reinemiv  •  m 

newspapers  which  confa  b  £  ™s  o£  the 
which  you  have  referred  ?  Paragraphs  to 

A.  I  do  not. 

.,x'§:  30-  When  did  you  first  ,, 

a;—  r'‘11”'-  «>  w„»p“:c  « 

*  W  m  the  New  Yo,t 
this  article  in  tho°He^!li]  ^  Ed‘s°',;!  attention  to 
his  attention  to  it!lnowhi°^Hb,Ll  -t!lat  you  ,1U1  call 

m  electric  ruiiwai-s,  wits'  itnotT  ^  ftltorcsfel1 

Tribune.'  *L  l°°k  t!le  Horal<I  and  I  took  the 
CaUC‘l  y°m'  !,t' 

Thomas  ”  on  electric  *  p  V!"*  “,J  “  doublin', 

interest  in  the  vattovftTiLff  ver3'  littlo 

Siemens’s  pubheation  did  not  mi  °  tJatcs  of  Mr. 

P  s®J011  °n  nty  mind  v'-  **  veiT  strong  im. 

John  P.  Ott. 


time  tliat  items  were  being  first  published  of  it  in 
the  daily  papers,  was  it  not? 

A.  I  do  not  recollect  now  any  thorough  discussion 
of  the  Siemens  electric  railway. 

x-Q.  35.  It  has  been  stated  in  the  scientific  papers 
that  100,000  persons  were  transported  by  the  Sie¬ 
mens  electric  railway  cars  at  the  Berlin  exposition 
of  1879.  Did  you  ever  happen  to  inert  ono  of  the 
100,000  at  Menlo  Park  or  elsewhere  ! 

A.  Not  to  have  conversation  regarding  the  mat¬ 

x  Q.  30.  I  do  not  ask  whether  you  met  to  have  any 
conversation,  but  whether  you  met  any  person  who 
was  transported  by  the  Siemens  railway  cars  ? 

A.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Francis  1?.  Upton. 

John  F.  Ott,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf  of  Mr. 
Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  ns  follows  in  an¬ 
swer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  George  IV. 
Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison:  • 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 
occupation  ? 

A.  John  F.  Ott;  age.  31;  residence,  131-  Prospect 
street,  Newark,  K.  J.;  occupation,  employed  by  tile 
Edison  Electric  Light  Company,  in  their  experi¬ 
mental  department,  in  Goerck  street. 

Q.  2.  When  did  you  enter  into  the  employment  of 
Mr.  Edison,  and  where  and  in  what  capacity  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  either  in  the  latter  part  of;  1S71 
or  ’72;  in  Newark,  N.  J.,  as  an  instrument  maker, 
and  afterward  foreman. 

Q.  3.  Have  you  been  constantly  iii  his  employ 

A.  No,  sir.  . 

Q.  4.  When  did  you  enter  into  his  employ  for  the 
last  time? 

A.  In  either  the  latter  part  of  September  or  be¬ 
ginning  of  October,  •  187$. 

Q.  5.  How  long  then  had  you  been  out  of  his  em¬ 

John  F.  Ott. 

A.  Ithink  about  four  years. 

Q.  6.  After  you  re-entered  his  employ,  in  Septem¬ 
ber  or  October,  1S7S,  did  you  hear  Mr.  Edison  speak 
of  his  electric  railway — and  if  so,  when  and  where 
was  it? 

A.  Tes;  I  did;  it  was  at  Menlo  Park,  in  the  year 
18YS,  after  his  return  from  the  West. 

Q.  7.  Fixas  nearly  as  you  can  the  time  when  that 

A.  I  should  judge  it  was  about  four  weeks  after 
his  return. 

Q.  8.  What  led  up  tojMr.  Edison’s  speaking  of  his 
electric  railway  at  that  time? 

A.  It  being  a  warm  day,  we  sat  on  the  piazza,  in 
front  of  the  laboratory,  and  Mr.  Edison  was  crack¬ 
ing  some  of  his  jokes  about  his  western  trip,  and 
stated  that  it  would  be  a  good  idea  to  build  a  small 
electric  railway,  to  be  used  out  in  the  western  coun¬ 
tries — and  especially  a  good  idea  for  mining  pur¬ 

Q.  9.  Did  he  then  give  any  reason  why  such  a 
railway  would  be  good  for  mining  purposes. 

A.  He  did.  The  reasons  were  that  the  electric 
motor  could  be  made  in  a  much  smaller 
space,  and  answer  the  purpose  of  steam 
locomotives,  as  they  are  low  and  can  be  run  into 
shafts  where  a  man  can  only  creep  or  walk  stooping. 

Q.  10.  Did  he  explain  at  that  time  how  the  electri¬ 
cal  power  could  be  generated. 

A.  With  a  stationai-y  dynamo  charging  the  rails, 
or  in  other  words  using  the  rails  as  conductors,  as 
the  mines  are  dry  enough  not  to  effect  any  great 
loss  from  the  escape  of  electricity. 

Q.  11.  At  that  time  did  he  illustrate  his  ideas  by 

A.  I  did  not  see  him  make  any  sketches. 

Q.  12.  Was  his  description  at  this  time  so  full  and 
clear  that  you  understood  what  his  proposed  con¬ 
struction  would  be. 

A.  It  was. 

Q.  13.  When  next  did  you  have  your  attention 
called  to  his  electric  railway. 

A.  Near  December  5th,  187S. 

Q.  10.  In  what  manner  was  it  so  called  ? 

A.  By  seeing  an  article  in  one  of  jour  New  York 
papers  stating  that  some  reporter  made  a  remark 
that  it  would  be  a  good  idea  to  use  horse-car  start-, 
ers,  which  put  me  in  mind  that  it  would  be  a  good 
idea  to  utilize  the  electric  current,  which  I  so  men: 
tioned  to  Mr.  Charles  Batchelor,  whereupon  he  an-, 
swered  that  sketches  to  that  effect  had  been  made 
by  Mr.  Edison,  and  that  it  w-ould  come  under  that 

Q.'17.  When  next  was  your  attention  called  to 
Mr.  Edison’s  electric  railway,  so  far  as  you  remem¬ 

A.  Somewhere  in  the  fall  of  1S7S,  as  I  was  look¬ 
ing  through  the  drawer  for  a  peculiar,  drawing  that 
I  wanted,  I  saw'  some  sketches  referring  to  electric 

Q.  IS.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  those 

A.  I  do  not;  they  always  went  to  the  office  and 
there  were  stowed  away. 

Q.  19.  When  did  you  ever  see  the  models  on  the 
table  before  you,  marked  Edison’s  Exhibits  12, 
13  and  14? 

A.  Some  time  in  1879. 

Q.  20.  How  do  you  know  that  they  are  the  same? 

A.  By  nothing  more  than  my  recollection;  I 
couldn’t  state  positively  that  they  are  the  same.  But 
if  not,  they  are  fac  simiies,  especially  No.  14,  as  that 
represented  sketches  at  that  time  circulating  around 
of  the  elevated  railway. 

Q.  21.  Did  you  see  them  made— those  or  some¬ 
thing  just  like  them? 

A  I  saw  them  made— that  is,  something  just 
like  them. 

Q.  22.  Were  you  at  Menlo  Park  whea  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son’s  electric  railroad  was  built,  and  operated  there 
in  the  spring  of  1880? 

'S""  *  * ;'««  compare 

•  ‘“'•■talmi®;  ™-  -  tire 

question,  io-llneliuioo'il'<i  f iuia  oljioot  to  the 

„ ”s„r“,r  ”» 
^  ™h.,are,reMI,p„t73r,,*,™'S' 

overland  instead°of  run'™8  t,,'at  tIlis  ono  was  huiit 
and  the  ayZ2  ,  ?  mf;  do'™clmtes  ,  ' 


0PRErjD;  -lK-Wlrira'OOK  I.V  BEHALF 

a  ™  •  ,  as  an  experi- 

■“•■  ro  do  both-  -ts  o 

experimental  work.'  ‘  ramih,afa‘  and  to  assist  in 

m;nt?-Whatd°yo„meail[  „ 
a  ,  *  an  oxperi- 

pious  a,  *  *«  ™f>;  out  an, I 

lom  tl'os-e  0f  askiu  „;;  ™  e-vi)e'-W'^itei-  differ 

there  WS^*®,n  "’as  not  directlv 



John  F.  Ott. 


A.  Not  to  me. 

x-Q.  29.  In  the  conversation  did  it  appear  that  an 
electric  railway  had  been  heard  of  by  any  of  them 

A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

x-Q.  30.  Had  you  ever  heard  of  it  before? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  had  not. 

x-Q.  81.  Was  tliero  auy  general  conversation  as  to 
the  uses  to  which  such  a  railroad  might  be  put? 

A.  Yes;  there  was  among  the  employee.?. 
x-Q.  32.  To  whom  was  his  description  of  the  rail¬ 
road  at  that  time  directed? 

A.  Tone  one  particularly,  as  it  came  up  in  a  gen¬ 
eral  conversation. 

x-Q.  33.  How  long  a  time  did  the  conversation  oc¬ 

A.  I  should  judge  it  did  not  hist  over  ten  or  fifteen 
minutes  as  lie  wound  up  with. some  of  his  western 
jokes,  and  we  all  went  to  lea. 

x-Q.  81.  Do  yon  mean  to  say  that  in  this  conver¬ 
sation  of  ten  or  fifteen  minutes,  introduced  and  ter¬ 
minated  as  you  have  said  by  western  jokes,  that  Mr. 
Edison  gave  you  a  complete  conception  of  an  elec¬ 
trical  railway  which  only  differed  from  that  subse¬ 
quently  built  by  him,  in  the  particulars  which  you 
have  specified  in  your  answer  to  the  23d  question? 

A.  Only  as  far  as  principle  is  concerned. 
x-Q.  32.  What  do  yon  mean  by  that? 

A.  By  that  I  mean  as  giving  a  general  outline  of 
how  the  power  may  he  obtained  aim  converted,  and 
then  transmitted  and  utilised. 

x-Q.  33.  Did  he  state  at  the  same  time  when  lie 
conceived  the  idea  oil  the®)  pr.ripVs? 

A.  Yes;  he  said  the  idea  struck  him  very  forcibly 
in  visiting  some  of  the  western  mines. 

x-Q.  31.  Do  you  own  any  shares  in  any  of  Mr. 
Edison’s  companies? 

A.  I  do  not. 

x-Q.  33.  Have  you  done  so  at  any  time?  ' 

A.  I  have  not. 

X:Q.  36  Have  you been  paid  at  any  time 

John  F.  Ott. 


since  you  have  been  in  Mr.  Edison’s  employ 
by  the  receipt  of  a  certain  percentage 
of  moneys  received  by  him  under  any  of  his  con¬ 

A.  I  have  not. 

x-Q.  37.  Did  Mr.  Edison  say  anything  to  you  at 
this  time  about  building  an  electrical  railway.  I 
mean  at  the  time  of  the  conversation  you  have  re¬ 
ferred  to,  in  September  or  October,  187S? 

A.  Not  any  more  than  that  ho  said  he  thought 
that  he  would  be  competent  to  carry  out  such  a 
plan  without  any  trouble. 

Cross-examination  by  Mb.  Whitman  in  behalf  of 

x-Q.  38.  Have  you  any  way  of  fixing  the  date 
when  you  entered  Mr.  Edison’s  employ  the  last 

A.  Yes,  sir.  By  a  book  which  I  have  in  my  pos¬ 
session,  showing  an  account  credited  to  me  on  the 
26th  of  October,  1S78. 

i-Q.  39.  Do  you  know  when  Mr.  Edison  returned 
from  the  West? 

A.  As  near  as  I  can  recollect  hi  August,  1878. 
x-Q.  40.  When  did  you  first  hear  of  an  electric 
railway  of  any  kind?  . 

A.  To  the  best  of  my  recollection  it  was  in  the 
conversation  with  Mr.  Edison,  about  which  I  have 

x-Q.  41.  When  Mr.  Edison  told  you  that  an  elec¬ 
tric  railway  would  be  good  for  mining  purposes,  did 
he  also  state  to  you  that  an  electric  railway  for 
mining  purposes  was  suggested  to  him  by  a  Mr. 

A.  No,  sir;  he  did  not. 

x-Q.  42.  State  as  nearly  as  you  can  all  persons 
who  were  present  when  your  first  interview  with, 
Mr.  Edison  took  place? 

A.  I  don’t  believe  I  can  remember  any  more 
closely  than  in  the  previous -statement. 

John  F:  Ott. 

x-Q.  43.  Were  you  also  employed  at  Menlo  Park 
during  the  year  1S79?- 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

^  You  have>  I  believe,  at  .Menlo  Park,  a 
library  containing  the  latest  publications  and  peri¬ 
odicals  relating  to  applications  of  electricity  in  use¬ 
ful  arts,  have  you  not' 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  45.  Was  that  library  accessible  to  you  while 
IsVVel"e  empl°yed  at  Manl°  Park>  in  1S7S  and 
A.  To  a  certain  extent  it  was. 
te^imotiy?What  UeWSpapeL' did  you  refer  to  in  your 
paper1  d°Ut  kno'v;  1  n,n  P°sitive  it  was  a  New  York 

x-Q.  4i.  Is  the  slip  which  you  have  in  your  hand 
the  newspaper  article  to  which  you  refer* 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q  4S.  That  slip  bears  the  mark  of  publication, 
December  5th,  1878,  does  it  not? 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  49.  The  idea  of  utilizing  the  electric  current 
lor  railway  purposes  occurred  to  you  before  it  was 
intimated  to  .you  that  Mr.  Edison  contemplated  such 
an  application? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  50.  Please  state  the  method  of  utilizing  the 
electric  current  which  occurred  to  you  after  reading 
the  article  of  December  5th.  " 

A.  The  idea  was  to  place  a  large  electro  magnet 
underneath  the  car,  in  such  a  manner  to  make  it 
“6n  f05  operating  on  a  mechanical  move¬ 
ment,  such,  for  instance,  as  a  clutch  or  pawl 
motion  pulling  on  the  axles  of  the  wheels  of  the  car 
whereby  assisting  the  horses  in  pulling  their  load  on 
the  start. 

x-Q.  51.  If  the  first  you  heard  of  an  electric  rail- 
w  ay  or  thought  of  an  electric  railway  was  after  De¬ 
cember  5th,  the  date  of  publication  mentioned,  why 
do  you  state  in  an  -  ■*  --Mon  ,7  that  your  al 


tantiemes  called  to  Mr.  Edison’s  electric  railway 
m  the  fall  of  1S7S? 

,,A;T  1,®t“ted  tllat  because  it  was  the  first  sketch 
that  I  had  seen,  and  not  what  I  had  heard. 

x-Q.  52.  I  suppose,  as  other  mechanical  engineers, 
you  subscribe  for  papers  relating  to  mechanical  sub- 
jects,  do  you  not? 

A.  Yes,  I  have  at  periods. 

“V™  papers  did  y<™  subscribe  for  during 

the  years  1S79  and  1SS0?  .  b  ■ 

A.  “The  Scientific  American/’  That’s  all  I  re 

*,Q-  5i-You1  «®  bi  the  habit  of  meeting  other 
mechamca1  and  electrical  engineers  and  consulting 
and  talking  over  the  latest  mechanical  improve^ 

,  ments,  are  you  not?  1 

■  A.  Yes,  sir. 

,.fQ-  5i-  ^  your  conversations  with  others  when 
h^0£  the  Si6mens  elootric  railway? 

,  A.  That  I  can’t  remember.  ■  ^ 

x-Q.  56.  You  read  accounts  of  it  in  the 
papers,  didn’t  you?  tne  nm\s- 

.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

pose?  5T'  Saw  iboiiiustrated  articles  about  it,  I  sup- 

'Nat  tl'at  1  remember  just  now. 

l"p™  ’ 

in  the  Techniker? '  >0Ur  attentlon>  the  article 

A.  I  happened  to  pick  i 
x-Q.  63.  If  you  took  it 
suppose  you  read  it  about 
tiou,  did  you  not? 

A.  Yes,  but  I  don't  rom 

x-Q.  03  Was  the  article  in  the  Techniker  an  illus¬ 
trated  article? 

A.  As  far  as  I  remember,  it  was. 
x-Q.  64.  What  did  the  article  in  the  Techniker  de¬ 

A.  It  described  an  electric  railway. 
x-Q.  63.  An  electric  railway  inver/ed  bv  whon 
A.  I  think  it  was  invented  by  Siemens. 
x-Q.  06.  Did  you  call  the  attention  of  Mr.  Edison 
to  the  article  in  the  Teclunkcr  describing  the 
Siemens  railway? 

A.  No,  sir. 

x-Q.  07.  Are  you  not  in  the  habit  of  calling  Mr. 
Edison’s  attention  to  articles  which  you  see 
which  you  think  would  bo  of  interest  to  him  con¬ 
cerning  his  inventions’ 

A. .  Yes,  if  I  consider  them  noteworthy. 
x-Q.  OS.  Why  then  did  you  not  call  his  attention 
to  the  article  about  the  electric  railway? 

A.  Because  Mr.  Edison  was  in  the  habit,  of  sub¬ 
scribing  for  foreign  publications,  and  I  didn’t  think 
it  was  necessary  forme  to  repeat  the  thing  to  him. 

x-Q.  69.  When  did  you  first  converse  with  Mr. 
Edison  about  the  Siemens  railway? 

A.  I  don’t  remember  any  special  conversation 
v/iih  him  on  that  subject. 

x-Q.  70.  You  have  heard  Mr.  Edison  mention  tho 
Siemens  railway,  haven’t  you? 

A.  Yes.  I  heard  him  say  that  Mr.  Seimens  was 
aiming  at  something  in  that  direction,  but  it  did  not 
conflict  with  anything  in  his  system. 

x-Q.  71.  Was  that  remark  about  the  Siemens 
railway  made  by  Mr.  Edison  at  the  time  when  he 
was  speaking  to  you  about  the  application  of  such 
a  railway  to  mining  purposes? 


JohnF.  Ctt, 

A.  Not  that  I  remember. 
x-Q.  72  When  was  this  remark  made  by  Mr 
Eis°n  with  regard  to  Siemens  electric  railway?  ' 
orterad  to  miWaSS°meti,Ue  in  1SS0’  when  I  was 

w^made?WaSthat  ^  cu^”t->'everSer  that 
de^gned^ 1  ^  This  was  the  «**  that  I 


A.  Yes,  sir. 

motive  was^Tmril?^?^  the«  loco- 
make  the  V°U  """  ”*“«»  *° 

mat  ScS^r  aCnTP,f d  **"  1  hart 

1-vions  answer,  as  I  then  misu^tSt"^ 
the  tracks 

verseri  completed  the  current  re- 

A.  Tes,  sir. 

ia  i” 

atMenlo>^^r  many  electricTocomotivos  were  used 

that 1  know  of. 

mker  of  which  you  have  testffiel)  1,1  the  Teah' 

John  F.  Ott. 


A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

x-Q.  70.  It  has  been  stated  that  100,000  people 
were  transported  by  the  electric  railway  of  Siemens 
at  the  Berlin  exposition  in  the  spring  of  1879.  Do 
you  remember  ever  to  have  met  any  one  of  the 
hundred  thousand? 

A.  I  have  not,  to  my  knowledge. 

R  e-direct  By  Col.  Dyer. 

Re-d.  Q.  80.  You  have  testified  on  the  cross-ex¬ 
amination  to  a  conception  of  uliirrng  the  electric 
current  for  railway  purposes,  and  have  described 
the  application  of  an  electric  car-starler  for  horse 
railways,  do  the  two  [ideas  relate  to  the  same  con¬ 

A.  They  do  not. 

Ro-d.  Q.  SI.  Explain  then  what  you  meant  by 
“  utilizing  the  electric  current  for  railway  pur¬ 

A.  What  I  thought  Mr.  Whitman  meant  was 
that  I  had  a  knowledge  of  such  a  thing  liable  to  be 
done  and  had  not  suggested  any  way  of  doing  it,  as  I 
misunderstood  cross-question  49.  What  1  meant  by. 
utilizing  the  electric  current  for  the  electric  car- 
starter  was  only  a  temporary  starting  power  and 
and  not  a  continuous  power. 

Jons  F.  Ott. 

By  consent,  the  taking  of  further  testimony  was 
postponed  to  Friday,  December  •  fh,  at  10  A. 01. 

Wji.  H.  Meapowcroet, 

Notary  Public, 


Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  taking  of  testimony 
was  continued  on  Friday,  December  9th,  1S81,  sa  me 
counsel  being  present. 


George  F.  Barker. 

George  F.  Barker,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf 
of  Mr.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  follows 
in  answer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  George 
W.  Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison: 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 

A.  George  F.  Barker;  age,  40:  residence,  Philadel- 
pliia;  profession,  Professor  of  Physics  in  the  Univer¬ 
sity  of  Pennsylvania. 

Q.  2.  Did  you  make  a  trip  to  the  West  with  Mr. 
Edison  in  1878;  if  so,  at  what  time  during  that  year, 
and  how  long  were  you  together? 

A.  Mr.  Edison  and  I  went  West  in  that  year 
with  the  eclipse  party  of  Professor  Draper,  leaving 
New  York  on  the  14tli  of  July.  The  eclipse  was  ob¬ 
served  atitawlings,  Wyoming,  on  the  29th,  and  on 
the  evening  of  the  same  day  Mr.  Edison  and  I  left 
for  San  Francisco  together.  We  then  visited  the 
Yosemite,  returned  to  Eawlings,  where  we  remain¬ 
ed  a  few  days  and  then  returned  to  St.  Louis  to¬ 
gether;  we  were  together  from  the  14th  of  July,  when 
we  left  -New  York,  to  about  the  20th  of  August, 
when  we  reached  St.  Louis. 

Q.  3.  During  that  trip,  did  Mr.  Edison  talk  with 
you  upon  the  subject  of  electric  railways? 

A.  He  did. 

<£  4.  Please  state  whether  fully  or  otherwise? 

A.  The  subject  of  the  use  of  electricity  as  a  mo¬ 
tive  power  was  frequently  discussed  during  our 
trip,  and  the  application  to  railroads,  both  to  local 
and  general  railroads  referred  to.  ' 

Q.  5.  During  that  trip,  did  Mr.  Edison  explain  Iris 
general  proposed  mode  of  construction  and  opera- 
tion  of  electric  railways? 

Counsel  for  Seimens  and  Field  object  to  the 
question  as  leading. 

~  ;  ,  . —  -wmvuuuu  Luau  any  special  system 
peculiar  to  himself  was  mentioned  at  that  time;  the 
general  method,  namely,  the  use  of  an  electric  gen¬ 
erator,  and  an  electric  motor  and  electric  connection, 

George  F.  Barker 


and  the  economy  of  this  method  of  transmitting 
power,  being  the  subjects  discuss.-, . 

^  O  (>  Do  you  remember  whether  oi  no-  a  ^  J 
of  uses  to  which  the  electric  railway  might  ,ie  ap¬ 
plied,  was  also  discussed? 

Same  objection. 


an  electric  railway?  tliese  conver- 

sarionftlSS  aUenrion  .to 

periment  in  this  dire ch< he  inttn,i- 
tlie  statement  which  lie  1  j  j  return  to 

od  to  devote  himsol f  unmed  at *  ck.ct,io 
the  development  of  electric  o 


Cross-exasusatios  et  ME.  '  “™” 

OK  Field:  _  Lcu!a 

x-Q.  S.  Did  you  leave  Mr.  i^oiaon  a» 

soltecEtoM,.!  0 


A.  I  do  not.  ,  you  had  your 

x-Q.  10.  Do  you  '^  '  ^.  'ricctricity  as  a 

first  discussion  about  Hu.  "qC 

motive  power,  with  a  ‘  - ■  ’  j  jja(ion  the  trip 

A.  The  first  discussion  which 


George  F.  Barker. 

referred  to  was  between  the  28th  of  July  and  the 
cisco^  AURllSt’  between  Rawlings  and  San  Fran- 

x-Q^ll.  How  long  were  you  in  San  Francisco? 

— A.  Three  or  four  days. 

f  D,m'ing  y°UV  Stay  in  San  Rnmcisco  did 
you  meet  or  hear  of  Mr.  Stephen  D.  Field? 

A\  d  7 Xt  Meld  UP°“  sev®ral  occasions, 

and  he  showed  us  many  attentions. 

13,  •Doi>'ou  remember  whether,  in  any  of 
your  conversions  with  him,  the  subject  of  the  use 
of  electricity  as  a  motive  power  was  discussed? 

alluded  toaVdn“°  recon®ction  that  this  subject  was 
alluded  to  during  any  of  our  conferences  with  Mr. 

thriw,^reSUra6‘hat  Scientifi0  ^estions  formed 

,t  tht^Msesr  'vm 

V  an?  especial,y  electrical  ones, 

had  hpon  D°  -V°U  ^wtliat  at  that  time  Mr.  Field 

as1Si^”l"‘Snr0*  «”“<*  «£% 

A.  I  do  not. 


Of  electricity  as  a  motive  nou?  heifPpbcalion 
given  that  subject  attention  and  inliX  ^  ra* 
return  to  experiment  with  «,  •  mtended  upon  his 

and  working  out  the  appicS^  °f  develoPinS  » 

George  F.  Barker. 


,  ,  ,  .  B,v-  is  that  the  impression 

A.  "What  I  intended  to^ay  of  the  convei- 

loftnnoamy  unnd  m  co’fc(1  _a„  that  he  had 

and  that  this  was  the  idea 
develops  on  his  return. 

Crom-exawsatios  IS  bkhaw  of  Siemens, 

necessary  for  you  to  societies,  relat- 

cations  and  proceeding ^  ^  does  it  not? 
in.  to  electricity  and  its  app  wa  ^  ^ 

A.  It  does,  and  I  endeav  conversations 

X.Q.  20.  Did  Mr.  Edwon^i^^  ^  was  familiar 
:  with  him,  strike  “  l^withthe applications 

with  electricity  as  a  .acne  ;  iml  of  electrical 

of  pure  mathematics  to  the  id 

phenomena;  .  ....... ;  n,e  then  as  he  has  always 

A.  Mr.  Edisonanpii--^  infovlued  man  m  the 
impressed  me.  ^  ‘  f  ciectricity  that  I  have  e 


informed  with  the  same  the .  »  ^  h;.  attention, 

toward  whiclihe  haso-  .-  fe a  granger  to  the 
In  mathematical  Mtho  mathematics 

methods  employed,  iuasiriUt.satioH  o{  th(J  sub]ect 

needed  ioi1  a  P10h  sfadiedhy  him. 
have  not  h«n  ejd’1'-"  •  schools  the  stm  y  . 

\Q  -1  111  \  "hn  geometn  tiigonometiJ 

pure  mathomaba  ag  a -  ^  integral  calculus 

and,  perhaps,  the  diffieiem  ^  m  slu(ly  of 

is  considered  a  prelnmnai} 

182  George  F.  Barker. 

tatLt  Z 1  SfTS“  ??•  a 

schools,  but  the  results  vhlnT  metbods  of  Me 


«bymyk“  “«*«;»*■  »  "-Mci.  ta  to 

came  to  wSaSSfttJS-  “S’  st"a“n‘  *‘o 

•  fair  knowledge  of  ew,,’t  •  COnW  not  obtain  a 
^out  j^s  applications, 

mathematics?  mse  f  to  Me  study  0f 

shows  thatlho^fwho' hlTobiT  f  L'xPerionee 
practical  electricians  by  nean  orai»ence  as 

cal  knowledge  are  the  i“  !•  Ulfe,i'  “wilier.:.".!;. 

A  knowledge  of  facts  is  the  nn<3  Ilofc  Ul°  rule, 
application"  fen:1heSe  ctft  Tf  t0 
and  laws,  is  the  function  of  mill  d^“  Meories 
In  my  opinion,  therefore  miti  f  .WtlcaI  methods, 
while  essential  to  the  ,W?«|lfac,U,know,edeo? 
theory  and  very  desirable  for  afT^i  °f,  electn‘cal 

-ictiralSSjJ“Ce> is  ™  absohitoly  so^to^he 

S°me  extent- 


George  F.  Barker. 

scientific  researches  which  he  has  made  have  been 

t°het„TefS  Vf  ?’  and  the  nPP'ications  made  by 
the  firm  of  which  he  is  a  member,  both  for  electri 
M^Tuf"4  and  the  apparatus  of  electricity 
(iidnch  doubtless  involve  the  patents  mentioned) 
aie  umversal  y  recognized  as  of  great  merit. 

'1'  t  ?  » I  6”  W01'e  >'ou  ]ost  abroad,  professor? 

A.  I  left  tins  country  on  the  18th  of  June  and  re¬ 
turned  on  the  10th  of  November  last. 

x-Q  20  Do  you  remember  of  hearing,  when 
Edison?  0ther  electricaI  than  that  of 

A.  I  heard  of  and  saw  in  operation  in  Paris  the 
olectncal  railway  of.  Siemens. 

x-Q.  27.  Will  you  please  describe  the  construc¬ 
tion  and  operation  of  that  railway* 

A.  The  rails,  which,  so  far  as  I  could  observe 
Paris*1]  Mose  of  the  ordinary  tramwaysof 

Pans,  led  from  the  Exhibition  Building  to  the  P  ace 
do  la  Concorde  The  car  was  about  the  size  S 
f  i  “n ,  ?a‘y  American  horae-car.  Beneath 

kno^i  as°eS,e  J,lanl°'electde  “«*«>»  commonly 
T  as  Me  Siemens  machine.  This  communi  - 

which  the  yN  f^°theaxleS  of  the  wheels  °n 
™  ,car  /eled-  The  electrical  current  was 
communicated  to  the  machine  by  metallic  conduc- 

the  street3  tiT  P°leS  al°ng  tho  curb  at  Me  side  of 
TT/  eet>  Tim  car  was  furnished  with  the  ordinary 
switehes  and  brakes.  The  motive  power  was  sum 
chirm  nf^16  Ex:pos!tio11  Building  .by  a  Siemens  ml 

of  about  IT  S'Ze  dnven  by  a  vertical  ^eam  engine 
of  about  So-horse  power,  as  I  judged 

■X'  aS  *"  “  lhe  p““ 

A.  I  did. 

x-Q.  29.  Was  any  other  electrical  railway  capable 
of  commercial  use  on  exhibition  at  that  exposition 
except  that  of  Siemens?  *** 

N°  ^er.  electrical  railway  available  in  prac¬ 
tice  oi  model  of  any  such  railway  was  there  exhibit- 

M  "•  Wl“‘  aU**  W  *»  *«»»i  ttePm»  g„ 


■  »,  wu,  I  sup- 

having  a  knowledge  of  thl  l  T  '  raany  pereons 
electricity?  S  t  ,e  latest  applications  of 
-A-  It  did;  and  I  hid  , 


“  ?c™w£>,^»m”t.<Sf1Sal° lhe  wesson 
™“«  ™t,S““,r  ‘"“sM  oM  « 

««  **  P«»  p„tot 

e  ectncal  railway W^},Wat  the  time  of  ^ 

^0N°0t^one  1,1  Meal  use. 

ef  isyr'  1  you^°  attend  the  Berlin  position 

-a-  I  did  not. 

experimental  have  heard  of  an 

last  mentioned?  .  ay  at  the  Exposition 

Al  1  rememberreading  of  th0 

^°£  the  experimental  elec- 

George  F.  Barker. 


trical  railway  referred  to,  but  I  am  not  able  to  recall 
that  it  was  in  connection  with  that  exhibition. 

x-Q.  3T.  Do  you  remember  in  what  publication 
you  first  read  of  the  electrical  railway  mentioned  in 
your  last  answer? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  the  first  notice  I  saw  of 
it  was  in  the  public  prints;  afterward  I  saw  a  notice 
of  it  in  some  scientific  periodical,  but  I  am  not  able 
to  state  now  what  one  it  was. 

x-Q.  38.  When  did  you  first  hear  of  an  electric 
railway  capable  of  transporting  oue  or  more  passen¬ 

A.  The  fiist  experiments  lacking  to  the  practical 
use  of  electricity  as  a  motive  power  upon  railways, 
that  I  remember  to  have  read  of,  were  those  of  Sie¬ 
mens  made  in  Berlin  as  above  referred  to.  My  rec¬ 
ollection  is  that  the  account  which  I  read  was  pub¬ 
lished  in  the  winter  of  1S7A-S0. 

x-Q.  39.  The  Siemens  electric  railway  at  the 
Berlin  Exposition,  over  which  it  has  been  said  100,- 
000  people  were  transported  in  the  spring  and  sum¬ 
mer  of  1S79,  was  mentioned,  I  suppose,  in  the  tele¬ 
graphic  dispatches  in  the  daily  papers,  and  among 
the  scientific  memoranda  of  the  leading  journals  be¬ 
fore  you  read  the  full  description  mentioned  in  your 
last  answer. 

A.  I  suppose  it  was,  but  I  do  not  remember  to 
have  seen  any  detailed  description  of  it  in  any  scien¬ 
tific  periodical  accessible  to  mo  up  to  the  present 

x-Q.  40.  Mr.  Edison,  in  the  conversation  concern¬ 
ing  which  you  have  testified,  did  not  describe  to  you 
the  mechanical  means  of  constructing  electric  rail- 
railways,  did  he? 

A.  I  do  not  recollect  that  anything  was  said  about 
any  specific  method  of  accomplishing  the  result. 

Geobge  F.  Barker. 

Charles  T.  Hughes,  a  witness  produced  in  be¬ 
half  of  Mr.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as 
follows  in  answer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by 
George  W.  Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison. 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 

A.  Charles  T.  Hughes:  age,  35;  residence,  Menlo 
Park,  N.  J.;  occupation  at  present,  building  an  elec¬ 
tric  railway. 

Q.  2.  Please  look  at  the  portions  of  railroad  rail 
before  you,  united  at  their  meeting  ends  by  a  fish 
plate,  and  state  if  you  ever  saw  the  same  befor  e, 
and  if  so,  when  and  where? 

A.  I  have;  I  cut  them  from  the  track  at  Menlo 
Park,  yesterday. 

Q.  3.  What  railroad  track  did  you  cut  it  out 

A.  From  the  old  electric  railway. 

Q.  4.  Did  you  see  this  old  electric  railway  laid;  did 
you  see  the  rails  laid? 

A.  I  can’t  say  that  I  saw  these  particular  rails 
laid,  but  X  saw  them  in  the  track. 

Q.  5.  How  early  did  you  see  them  in  the  track? 

A.  I  couldn’t  say  exactly,  but  it  was  early  in  1SS0 

Q.  C.  Was  it  before  or  after  tire  electrical  railway 
was  in  operation? 

A.  Both. 

Q.  7.  Are  you  satisfied  that  this  section  is  taken 
out  of  rails  which  were  laid  at  that  time? 

A.  lam. 

The  section  of  rails  referred  to  put  in  evi¬ 
dence  and  marked  “Edison’s  Exhibit  No. 

Counsel  for  Siemens  and  Field  object  to 
the  exhibit  as  showing  nothing  involved  in 
the  interference. 

Cross-examination  in  behalf  of  Field  is 

Charles  T.  Hughes. 

Cross-examixatiox  iv  nyu  \  r  0 

WH iTMAJf:  '  felEMEXS  BY  Mr. 

isot  AneIeCtric  lail'va3'  at  Menlo  Park  for  Mr.  Ed- 

wiien  completed»1>01nts  rai-:"-'ray  connect 

A.  Menlo  Park  and  pumf- . 

be  c„,„. 

-tolt17i5JW.3  mil0s  nDout  300  feet. 

x-Q.  12.  Howwe>.0  V0I.  .  ,  ,  , 

the  old  electric  railway  i,‘  i 1 - 0,1  'v,10il  you  saw 
have  testified  >  '  '  ’  concei'nil)S  'vbich  you 

'4  iVaspuichasinr-,,  W 

x-Q.  i;j.  General  pu-ch  a-  E(,iso)1- 

employe,;  to  purchase  or  "’Mo  you 

A.  Xwas.-L,  ’‘-ltu-?Iar things? 
x-Q.  a.  Did  voul  LiJS  , 
wera  used  on  ;j,u  electric  l  ‘  ?v,,wls 
Park?  LkLtl!0  loc°motivo  at  Menlo 

A.  fdirl  not. 

X-Q.  15.  Did  vou  ever  hem-  r 
ra.lway  th an  flint  of  EtVviif  othei'  electric 

A.  1  have. 

4 oiile!‘  o!°ctric  railway* 

'™y  to  you,  or'  m'ylTvcM ,u ]  Hirem  rail- 
papers?  yoj  lea<1  about  it  in  the 

A.  I  read  about  it. 

about  it?  IU  1'hat  Publication  did  yOU  rea(1 

A.  I  don’t  remembo’- 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 

in^soml?  Did  «aA  about  the  Siemens  railway 
Sf.""  paper  for  which  you  subscribe  youT 

A.  I  couldn’t 'say. 

-vou  read  t,,e  m- 

A.  That  I  couldn’t  say 

i1"*1  say  as  to  that  either. 
Siem^ijr  UVCrtaIk  t0a"^  about  the 


A.  I  couldn’t  say  that 



way.  was  described  in  det S'  Wh8thop  tho  rail- 
remember.  detai1  «  not,  I  don’t 

Crus.  T.  Hughes. 

Charles  L.  Claritf  »  ... 

half  of  Mr.  Edison  bein^i,,?*116^  !1l'n,I"°ed  in  be- 

lows  in  answer  to  oS"^  BW0™.  testifies  as  fob 

Q^S^r^Kr" • 

occupation?  eSaeyour  name,  age,  residence  and 

York  CiTyJ  occupaSoJchif0,, Ji!  residcnc0’  New 
tncal  engineer.  ’  lec,mnical  and  olec- 

f  I  ,™*‘f Pn»nUu,ie!. 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 


Q.  3.  If  at  any  time  you  entered  into  the  employ 
of  Mr.  Edison  at  Menlo  Park,  please  state  when  it 
was  and  in  what  capacity? 

A.  February  1st,  1880,  as  assistant  in  laboratory. 
Strictly,  when  I  first  went  there  it  was  as  a  mathe¬ 
matician  and  assistant  to  Mr.  Upton. 

Q.  4.  Please  state  what  your  education  and  train¬ 
ing  had  been  before  you  went  into  the  employ  of 
Mr.  Edison. 

A.  Graduate  from  Public  High  School  in  Port¬ 
land,  Maine,  in  1870;  assistant  to  a  civil  engineer  in 
Portland,  Maine,  from  December,  1870,  to  January, 
1S72;  at  that  time  first  assistant  engineer  on 
the  Boston  and  Maine  Railroad;  graduate  from 
Bowdoin  College,  engineering  department,  lS7f>,  as 
Bachelor  of  Science;  travelled  abroad  for  the  pur¬ 
pose  of  inspecting  engineering  works  from  Septem¬ 
ber,  1S75,  until  May,  1S70;  employed  in  teaching 
English  and  mathematical  branches  and  in  studying 
engineering  science  until  my  employment  with  Mr. 
Edison,  excepting  three  months  in  the  spring  and 
summer  of  1877,  during  which  time  I  was  in  tho 
employ  of  Mr.  A.  L.  Holly  in  New  York  City  as  a 

Q.  5.  After  you  entered  into  the  employ  of  Mr. 
Edison  at  Menlo  Park  how  long  did  you  remain 
there  in  his  employ? 

A.  I  was  in  Mr.  Edison’s  employ  at  Menlo  Park' 
until  February,  1S81,  when  the  Edison  Electric 
Light  Company  began  operations  in  New  York  City. 

Q.  C.  Did  you  witness  the  construction  and 
equipment  of  Mr.  Edison’s  railway  at  Menlo  Park  in 
the  spring  of  1880. 

Counsel  for  Seimens  and  Field  object  to  the 
question  as  leading  and  suggesting  the  date 
to  the  witness. 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  7.  Please  describe  the  construction,  equipment 
and  mode  of  operation  of  such  railway  in  detail, 
having  reference,  if  you  see  fit,  for  illustration  to 
exhibits  already  put  in  testimony  in  this  case. 


Charles  L.  Clarde. 

A.  The  electric  railway  as  constructed  extended 
from  within  about  seventy  feet  of  the  boiler  room' 
of  the  machine  shop  and  was  about  tbree-quai  tei-s 
of  a  mile  long.  The  road-bed  conformed  very  near¬ 
ly  to  the  natural  surface  of  tin.'  ground,  and  includ¬ 
ed  curves  considerably  less  than  a  chain  in  radius 
and  grades  exceeding  150  feet  to  the  mile.  Very 
little  ballast  was  used  in  grading  the  line.  Tho 
sleepers  were  common  cord  wood  sticks,  in  most 
eases  merely  laid  upon  the  ballast.  The  line  includ¬ 
ed  considerable  trestle-work,  tho  sleepers  upon 
which  were  sawed  timber.  The  rails  used  were 
common  T  rails  weighing  about  sixteen  pounds  per 
yard.  Mr.  Edison  determined  to  consti  net  this  road 
so  that  the  rails  couid  he  used  »•;  the  conductors  for 
the  electricity  and  to  ensure  more  perfect  connec¬ 
tion  between  tho  ends  of  tho  rails,  connected  these 
ends  by  a  strip  of  copper  placed  underneath  the  lish 
plate  and  firmly  bolted  to  the  rail  with  the  same. 

The  dynamos  which  were  tins  sourer  jti electricity 
for  operating  this  railway,  were  placed  in  the  ma¬ 
chine  shop  near  the  engine-room.  The  cables  con¬ 
nected  to  these  dynamos  were  connected  directly  to 
the  ends  of  the  rails  nearest  the  machine  shop.  The 
ends  of  the  rails  on  the  far'!:  :•  1  -f 

loft  open.  Exhibits  15,  is,  an,  :  i.  oyt  and"  24  accu¬ 
rately  represent  the  railroad’ anil  road ti-od  as  coni 
structed  and  when  operated. 

In  constructing  the  electric  locomotive  Mr.  Edison 
used  as  a  source  of  motive  power  an  electric  motor 
similar  to  the  dynamo  electric  machines,  which  fur¬ 
nished  electricity  for  oparatiu-  the  motor  The 
magnet  was  mounted  horizontally  upon  two  axles 
the  wheels  supporting  which  and  resting  upon  the 
rads  were  composite  and  consisted  of  an  iron  hub 
and  tire,  the  space  between  botii  l.eingstrongly  con¬ 
structed  of  wood  to  which  they  were  finnly  bolted- 

;  ndw?  Her71SaSfln  il,SUlat01'  llut"C0.1  «.«  file 

and  hub,  thereby  preventing  the  current  from  pass- 

“£fl°m  ^  ^  wlthout  Amt  going  through  the 

aimature  of  the  motor.  The  tiro  being  in  connection 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 


•directly,  and  therefore  electrically  witli  the  rail,  and 
the  hub,  and  all  supported  thereon,  being  insulated 
from  the  same  a  brass  spider  with  three  arms  was 
bolted  to  the  side  of  the  tire,  but  in  no  wav  connect- 
ed  to  the  hub.  Projecting  from  tho  center  of  the 
spider  was  a  cylindrical  huh  concentric  with  the 
axle,  llie  brush  made  in  this  instance  of  copper 
wires,  rested  upon  this  hub  on  the  spider,  andestab- 
hshed  thereby  electrical  connection  between  tho 
brush  and  rail.  This  brush  was  insulated  by  means 
of  wooden  support,  ami  connection  from  it  to  a  de¬ 
sired  point  was  made  by  means  of  insulated  wire. 
It  being  necessary  that  tho  armature  of  the  motor 
should  revolve  much  faster  than  the  driving  wheels 
of  tho  electric  locomotive,  a  system  of  friction 
"  beels  was  first  adopted  to  reduce  the  number  of 
revolutions  from  the  armature  to  the  driving  wheels. 
Owing  to  tiie  failure  of  tiio  friction  wheels  by  break¬ 
age  of  the  casting,  this  system  was  laid  one  side 
and  a  system  of  shafts  with  belts  and  pullers  was 
constructed  to  attain  the  same  purpose. 

To  reverse  the  direction  of  rotation  of  the  motor 
armature,  and  therefore  the  direction  of  motion  of 
the  locomotive,  Mr.  Edison  used  a  current  revers¬ 
ing  switch  operated  by  the  locomotive  driver  by  a 
hand  lever. 

Cars  were  constructed  mounted  upon  wheels 
built  like  those  airea  described,  cx;epiin«-  riiat  tb" 
spider  and  brush  were  omitted.  ° 

The  operation  of  the  system  was  as  follows:  Tho 
dynamo  electric  machines  in  the  machine  shop  being 
in  operation,  and  the  conductors  before  mention¬ 
ed  connected  to  the  ends  of  the  rails 
near  the  machine  shop,  and  the  lever 
of  the  current  reversing  switch  on  the  electric  loco-* 
motive  in  its  proper  position,  the  current  of  elec¬ 
tricity  flowed  from  tho  dynamo  machines  through 
one  conductor  to  one  rail:  from  thence  to  the  tires 
of  the  locomotive  wheels  in  contact  with  that  rail- 
then  through  the  three  arms  of  the  spider  before 
described,  to  the  brush  iu  coutact  with  the  cylinder 


Charles  L.  Clarke. 

thereon;  thence  by  an  insulated  wire  to  the  current 
reversing  switch,  through  the  switch  to  the  arma¬ 
ture,  through  the  armature  and  by  a  conducting 
wire,  through  the  brushes,  spider  and  tires  of  the 
wheels  of  the  opposite  side  of  the  locomotive  and 
back  by  the  other  rail  to  the  dynamo  machines.  Re¬ 
versing  the  current  through  the  motor  armature  by 
means  of  the  switch  caused  the  amature  to  revolve 
in  the  opposite  direction  and  the  locomotive  to  re¬ 
verse  its  direction  of  motion. 

A  correct  view  of  the  details  of  the  current  revers¬ 
ing  switch  as  constructed  is  given  in  Exhibit  No. 

19.  A  correct  .view  of  same  as  constructed  and 
placed  for’operation'  upon  an  electric  locomotive  is 
given  in  Exhibits  20,  21,  22,  23  and  24.  Correct 
views  of  the  locomotive  wheels  with  tire  insulated 
from  hub,  also  of  spider  with  cylinder  thereon,  mak¬ 
ing  contact  with  wire  brush,  and  insulated  wires 
leading  to  current  reversing  switch  and  armature, 
are  given  in  Exhibits  17,  18,  20,  21,  22,  23  and  24. 

Mr.  Edison  also  had  a  headlight  placed  on  the 
locomotive  lighted  by  an  electric  incandescent  lamp, 
taking  its  current  from  the  rails  by  the  same  means 
as  current  was  obtained  for  the  motor  amature.  Be¬ 
sides  the  electric  appliances,  were  simple  brakes  for 
checking  or  stopping  the  locomotive  operated  In- 
band  levers,  and  a  belt  tightener  operated  in  the 
same  manner,  distinctlv  illustrated  in  Exhibit  No. 


It  being  desirable  that  the  armature  should  attain 
considerable  rate  of  speed  before  communicating  its 
motion  to  the  driving  wheels,  the  bolt,  tightener  be¬ 
fore  mentioned  served  the  purpose  by  allowing  the 
belt  passing  around  the  pulley  on  the  Armature  shaft 
to  slip,  until  the  desired  rate  of  speed  .was  attained 
and  then  by  gradually  tightening  the  belt,  also' 
by  degrees,  to  communicate  the  full  motion  of  the 
armature  to  the  driving  wheels;  also  to  regulate  the 
ratio  between  the  two  according  as  at  any  time 
should  be  necessary. 

Q.  8.  Please  to  state  what  kind  of  power  was  used 

Charles  L.  Clarke, 


0  .“SETT"  “  GUfihle  promises. 
Q.  9.  Please  to  state  what  amount  of  electric 
energy  was  developed  by  the  stationary  dynamo 
machines,  if  you  can  ?  a  i  o 

Inth.mlshWM  of  so  ho. 

Q.  10.  Did  you  estimate  the  loss  in  the  conversion 

flrst^S’140  *°“*““>* 

A.  No. 

Q.  11.  Did  you  estimate  the  loss  in  transmission 
and  reconversion  at  the  point  of  the  motor  on  the 
electrical  locomotive? 

A.  I  did  not. 

i2;  ™,hafc  »p;°?  "'as  developed  in  the  loco¬ 
motive  on  tins  electric  railway? 

A.  Forty  miles  an  hour,  by  judgment. 

Q.  13.  What  was  the  character  and  extent  of  use 
ot  this  radway  in  I. 880? 

A  -*  s  to  character  it  was  experimental.  It  was 
used  to  an  extent,  demonstrating  by  estimate  ratios 
of  speed  and  load,  upon  grades,  level,  straight  and 
curved,  portions  of  the  time,  that  such  an  electric 
railway  was  practicable.  It  was  in  use  for  con¬ 
siderable  time,  carrying  people  over  the  line. 

Q.  14.  Was  it  open  for  exhibition  to  the  public 
and  notorious?  ’ 

A.  It  was. 

By  consent  the  taking  of  further  testimony  was 
postponed  to  Saturday,  DecemberlO,  1881, at  10  A.  M. 
War.  H.  Meadowchoft, 

Notary  Public, 

N.  Y.  Co. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment,  the  taking  of  testimony 
was  continued  on  Saturday,  December  10,  1881,  the 
same  counsel  being  present. 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 


Q.  15.  You  have  stated  in  your  answer  to  the  13th 
question  that  the  electric  railway  of  Mr.  Edison  at 
Menlo  Park  was  practicable.  Will  you  please  give 
the  reasons  which  lead  your  mind  to  such  a  con¬ 

A.  First,  because  it  was  proved  by  repeated  trials 
that  the  electric  locomotive  could  and  did  haul  cars 
heavily  loaded  with  people,  and  sometimes  freight, 
up  grades  and  around  curves,  which  required  the 
development  of  much  power,  and  at  sufficient  rate 
of  speed.  By  the  word  “sufficient,”  I  mean  it  to 
be  applied  with  the  same  significance  -with  which  I 
would  use  the  word  if  speaking  of  railway  trains 
operated  or  drawn  by  steam  locomotives  under  the 
conditions  just  mentioned.  The  speed  attained  on 
the  straight  and  level  portions  of  the  road  was  also, 

Second,  because  said  satisfactory  results,  as  to 
speed  attained  and  load  carried,  were  attained  with 
an  electric  locomotive  which  was  hastily  and  imper¬ 
fectly  constructed  as  regards  details  and  workman¬ 
ship,  simply  for  tiie  purpose  of  pract’cally  demon¬ 
strating  what  Mr.  Edison  knew  to  be  feasible. 

Third,  because  it  was  ready  to  operate  at  a 
moment’s  notice,  with  no  preliminary  adjustments, 
the  starting  of  the  dynamo  electric  machines  in  the 
machine  shop  being  all  that  was  necessary. 

Fourth,  because  it  could  bo  operated,  and  was 
frequently  operated,  by  persons  having  no  knowledge 

whatever  of  electricity  or  apppliances  for  using  the 
same  in  any  manner,  simple  instruction  as  to  using 
the  hand,  lever  connected  to  current  reversing 
switch  being  all  that  was  necessary. 

Fifth,  it  was  operated  under  all  conditions  of  road 
bed,  rails  and  weather,  no  difficulty  being  met  with 
in  handling  loads  or  attaining  satisfactory  speed, 
excepting  from  such  causes  as  would  interfere  with 
the  traction  of  the  driving  wheels  on  the  rails 
these  difficulties  being  such  as  would  interfere 
with  the  operation  of  any  railroad. 

Sixth,  the  mechanical  appliances  on  the  loco- 

SSnSr-S  ?„***?•* 

could  be  readily  replaced  or  rcnaim!  '  f  ""  Ule’ 

Seventh,  because  the  electric  locomotive  carried 

directly  obtained  from  the  rails.  ' 

Eighth  the  development  of  the  cnergv  at  the 
dynamo-electric  machines  was  direct  and  ‘cconom- 

Ninth,  the  development  of  this  c'leray  was  -it 
any  time  only  slightly  in  excess  of  the  ener-V  re¬ 
quired  by  the  electric  locomotive  at  that  time.  ° 

Tenth,  the  locomotive  required  only  one  man  to 
operate  the  same. 

Eleventh,  the  electric  railway  system  is  ecomicai 
in  operation.  In  practice,  the  railroad  would  he  di¬ 
vided  into  working  sections  of  such  length  that  the 
loss  of  electricity  in  transmitting  the  same  from  the 
center  of  cadi  section  to  its  two  extremities  would 
not  bo  disadvantageous  to  economy.  At  this  sta¬ 
tion  iu  the  middle  of  a  section,  stationary  boilers, 
engines  and  dynamos  would  be  placed  of  a  power 
sufficient  to  supply  all  electric  locomotives  which 
would  he  operated  upon  that  section  at  any  ono 
time  with  the  electrical  energy  necessary  for  said 
locomotives  to  develop  required  power.  By  using  at 
this  station  boilers  and  engines  of  an  economical 
type  and  dynamo  electric  machines  of  great  capaci¬ 
ty  operated  directly  by  the  engines  without  inter¬ 
posing  counter-shafts  and  belts,  a  saving  is  made  as 

High  rate  of  evaporation  per  pound  of  fuel  which 
may  be  in  the  comparatively  cheaper  form  of  pea 
and  dust  coal  or  slack:  economy  of  steam  consump¬ 
tion  for  the  power  developed  by  engines  (this  econ¬ 
omy,  to  be  increased  by  high  boiler  pressure);  absence 
of  loss  in  friction  which  would  result  from  trans¬ 
mitting  the  power  to  the  dynamos  through  belts; 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 

diminishing  loss  energy  which  would  appear  in  the 
form  of  heat  in  the  armature;  employment  of 
skilled  labor  to  operate  the  station,  therefore  saving 
by  intelligent  management;  by  supplying  a  current 
from  the  dynamo  electric  machines  at  the  station  of 
high  electrical  pressure  and  proportioning  the  elec¬ 
trical  conducting  parts  of  the  locomotive  with  ref¬ 
erence  to  the  economical  reconversion  of  this  cur¬ 
rent  into  power.  The  ratio  of  the  coal  consumed 
under  the  boilers  at  the  station  to  the  power  devel¬ 
oped  by  the  locomotive  in  hauling  a  train  depends 
therefore  upon  the  economy  of  steam  generation 
of  steam  consumption,  of  economy  in  converting 
power  into  electricity,  of  loss  by  transmitting 
through  the  conductors  to  the  locomotive,  of  leak¬ 
age  between  the  conductors  or  from  the  conductor 
to  the  ground,  of  economy  in  reconversion.  In  a 
steam  locomotive  the  ratio  of  fuel  consumed  to  the 
power  developed  in  hauling  the  train  depends  upon 
the  economy  of  steam  generation,  steam  cousump- 
tion  and  losses  by  friction  in  the  various  parts  of 
the  locomotive. 

Repeated  experiments  and  the  authority  of  engi¬ 
neers  show  that  steam  locomotives  of  the  medonn 
and  so-called  economical  types  consume  from  six  to 
nearly  nine  pounds  of  fuel  for  each  horse  power  de- 
veloped  in  hauling  a  train.  Careful  and  repeated 
experiments  made  by  Mr.  Edison  and  his  assistants 
upon  the  economy  of  steam  generation  with 
stationary  boilers,  economy  of  steam  con- 
sumption  mli  modern  type  of  stationary  en- 
gines,  loss  m  -converting  power  into  elec- 

maChinreff  bythiS  f0rm  o£  dynamo  electric 
machine,  of  loss  m  transmission  of  the  electricity  and 
maximum  leakage  thereof  which  would  occur  in 
practice,  loss  by  re-conversion  of  the  electrical  en 

Sin  th  i’7er  byhiS  electr°  dynamic  machine  as 
used  m  the  locomotive,  go  to  prove  that  the  maxi¬ 
mum  ratio  of  coal  consumption  to  power  developed 
hauling  die  tram  is  five  pounds  of  fuel  per  hoi-se 
power.  This  is  the  loast  gnomical  duty  of  the 

I-.  Clarke. 

electric  locomotive.  I  will  ■ 
for  the  steam  loconmik  SUn?ai'lze  »>*  follows: 
power  istlm  S s  of  ™  l»r  horee 
■  of  fuel  per  horee  power  i  "thT  „  °!  “°aJly  9  |,0,mds 

economical  rati0  is  prcl^enmtic.  !  the  Ieast' 

perlmree^wSsri^Srat”"  &eI 

futeieSi^;s?  °fJ~^ 

rTa„d%km,t(1MXi^;  St 

to  ire?  '1°1  1  1  tl  i  the 

Mr  Ed.sou  has  proved  practically' 'also  that  dyna- 
tan  be  and  lia\  e  been  constructed. 

A.  Yes. 

aS'  }.'•  Comparing  these  sketches  with  the  con- 
struction  and  system  of  Mr.  Edison  as  displayed  in  • 
his  electric  radway  at  Menlo  Park,  about  which 
you  have  been  testifying,  what  essential  difference 
uo  you  find? 

A.  None;  I  find  hi  these  exhibits  all  the  essential 
elements  m  accordance  with  which  the  electric  rail- 
way  at  Menlo  Park  was  constructed  and  operated  in 
the  sj, i?„g  of  1SS0,  in  detail  and  as  a  whole.  So  far 
as  relates  to  the  system  it  was  the  same. 

^Counsel  for  Field  objects  to  questions  1C  and 
17  and  the  answers  thereto  as  incompetent 
and  as  involving  a  conclusion,  the  sketches 


Charles  L.  Clarke. 

referred  to  in  said  questions  being  of  them¬ 
selves  evidence  as  to  what  they  show. 

Same  objection  by  counsel  for  Siemens. 


Counsel  for  Field  states  that  any  portions  of  the 
cross-examination  whicii  relate  to  questions  which 
have  been  objected  to  are  .made  without  waiving 
such  objection. 

x-Q.  IS.  Were  any  suggestions  made  by  you  as  to 
the  construction  of  the  electric  railway,  at  any 
time,  which  wore  embodied  in  the  road  as  construct¬ 

A.  No. 

x-Q.  10.  Is  your  description  of  the  electric  rail¬ 
road,  which  was  made  largely  with  reference  to 
photographs  of  portions  of  the  same  which  were  ro- 
cently  taken,  in  all  respects  an  accurate  description 
of  the  road  as  it  was  first  constructed! 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  20.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Edison  make  any  of  tho 
exhibits,  numbered  from  1  to  11  inclusive? 

x-Q.  21.  Has  ho  ever  explained  to  you  wlial  thoy 
were  intended  to  represent,  respectively! 

A.  No. 

x-Q.  22.  Are  you  n 
Menlo  Park! 

A.  No. 

nrX  ?'p3V4le  VY  now  en£aSed  in  building  at 
Menlo  Paris  an  electric  railway  other  than  that  Con¬ 
cerning  which  you  have  testified ! 

A.  Yes. 

wfvQ;  24‘,  Wllat  is  fhe  ob-i^t  of  building  the  rail¬ 
way  now  being  constructed?  ■ 

A.  To  make  more  perfect  the  details  of  tho  sys- 

■v  employed  by  Mi'.  Edison  at 

X-Q-  2C.  Win-  ,v  a- 

to-day,  neither  would  a  meeP  B?c^et  ”  are  not  used 
■•im1  US°’  cousido»»ff  the  facUh Tt  mfneer  advise 
"?m°  purposes  locomotive ‘ tw°  I,ave  f°r  the 
fhops  at  the  present  time  vet ‘b  bv  tho 

te  «°  dlfference  in  piiudpleb  mfeen  ^  t"'°  there 
to  the  source  of  energy bei«ghad 
to  be  made  to  do  woifc  d  “s  by  which  it  is 

builtfofth?  purpose  S°“!isf  ^  lailroad  » 
are  not  satisfied  with  the  capitalists  who 

have  testified,  or  the  nn  J  i .,.!nents  of  which  vou 
.  A.  Ofi^^K^WrftheinTontton” 
is  the  case.  Pledge!  cannot  state  that  such 

the  experiment^  concernt'i  *5, rT°  °f  conduoti»g 

'  ?,ut  in;  successful  operation  in  the  cit.v  of  Berlin  i„ 
the  spring  and  summer  of  1S7D. 

Counsel  for  Edison  objects  to  the  question 
0  tl  e  on  that  there  is  no  proof  of  the 
truth  of  the  statement  which  is  made  in 
the  question,  and  it  is  not  admitted,  but  on 
the  contrary  it  is  denied, that  the  electric  rail¬ 
way  of  Siemens  alluded  to  was  ever  put  in 
successful  operation  at  Berlin  or  elsewhere. 
elltr,ViK-b?,t  time’  notl,einS  directly  interested  in 

Ti  rtes  to  V°“  iH  a  business  with 
artms  so  interested,  and  not  having  read  any  of 

•  or  aftert!  Cf f  eVatUre  ,,ublishctl  during  that  time, 
oi  aftei  that  tune,  until  Mr.  Edison  had  completed 
!  constructor  of  his  electric  railway  embSg 
%  Jt7?pleS  ilccol’dinS  to  which  he  decided  it 
w  ht  to  be  constructed,  I  cannot  say,  or  give  any 

ZntionoT^  Sh0Uld  nofc  att™Pt  the  il 

v  O  on  a,  P‘'a'itlca!  eIectric  railway  system. 

,.1-3'  ^,la*  Printed  documont  is  that  from 

?  It  k  'on  e  ifediy0nr  m8mo|y  wliUo  testifying? 

„  Xt  “  “a  article  written  by  myself  entitled 

Magazine,  December, 1880. 'ld’S  Engineering 
gini30'  H°"’  l0"S  have  you  been  an  electrical  en- 
Fetua! ^Sgi“t0the,eVViCe0fM-Edi^ 
?he  PrePai'atio“  of  articles  on  thesubiect 

to  ma]le  ii,la  V<Y Ilas  “ado  it  necessary  for  J-ou 

A.  It  has. 

discovert£\™aftlmfi!Ye  exa“fnati«»s  did  you 

option,  a^SStSr‘°PUtinpKl0tiC31 

•A..  I  did  not. 

when  30 

Charles  L.  Clarke.  201 

A.  I  did  not. 

x-Q.  34.  Did  you  discover  that  an  electric  railway 
had  been  practically  used  before  the  electric  railway 
of  Mr.  Edisc  co  c  i  g  which  you  have  testified? 

A.  I  discovered  that  an  electric  railway  had  been 
in  operation  at  an  exhibition  in  Brussells. 

i-Q.  35.  How  did  you  happen  to  discover  that 
this  railroad  has  been  used  at  .Brussells? 

A.  I  read  an  account  of  the  exhibition  of  the  same 
in  a  slip  cut  from  some  periodical. 

x-Q.  3G.  Whose  railway  was  that  used  at  Brus¬ 

A.  Siemens’s. 

x-Q.  37.  Do  you  remember  in  what  periodical  ydu 
read  the  account  of  the  Brussells  railway? 

A.  I  do  not. 

x-Q.  38.  When  did  3Tou  first  hear  of  the  Siemens 
railway,  of  which  you  have  just  testified? 

A.  My  first  recollection  of  hearing  of  the  Siemens 
railway  was  either  during  or  after  the  month  of' 
May,  1880. 

x-Q.  39.  Why  do  you  designate  May  as  the  month 
in  which  you  heard  of  the  Siemens  railway? 

A.  Because  it  did  not  occur  before  Mr.  Edison’s 
railway  was  in  operation. 

x-Q.  40.  Do  you  remember  how  information  con¬ 
cerning  Siemens’s  railway  first  came  to  you? 

A.  Nothing  excepting  this  article,  unless  by  hear¬ 

x-Q.  41.  How  did  information  concerning  the  Sie¬ 
mens  railway  first  come  to  you  by  hearsay? 

A.  I  have  no  positive  recollection  on  this  point. 
x-Q.  42.  Your  duties  as  an  electrical  engineer,  and 
the  preparation  of  magazine  articles  upon  the  sub- 
ject.of  anelectric  railway  have  made  it  necessary 
for  you  to  thoroughly  investigate  the  Siemens  rail¬ 

A.  All  that  I  ever  wrote  and  all  figures  given  with 
reference  to  economy  apply  to  the  Edison  system 
alone.  I  have  obtained  such  ideas  of  Siemens’s  rail¬ 
way  as  came  to  me  through  the  periodical  literature. 


Charles  L.  Clarke. 

x-Q.  43.  Please  designate  the  periodical  literature 
concerning  which  you  have  testified? 

A.  It  has  been  miscellaneous,  but  I  am  unable  to 
name  it. 

x-Q  44  I  understand  you  to  testify  that  you  dis¬ 
covered  that  an  electric  railway  bad  been  in  opera¬ 
tion  m  Bru^ells  before  Mr.  Edison’s  railway  was  in 
X^iTonf d  y°U  menti0nthat  Brussells  railway  to 

Counsel  for  Edison  objects  to  the  question 
upon  the  ground  that  the  witness  has  not 
stated  that  “he  discovered  that  an  electric 
^lway  ^  been  ^  operation  at  Brussells  be¬ 
fore  Mr.  Edison’s  railway  was  in  operation.” 
A:  *llav6  said  in  Previous  answers  that  I  discov¬ 
ered  that  Mr.  Siemens  had  exhibited  an  electric 
railway  in  operation  at  Brussells;  also  that  said  dis¬ 
covery  was  after  Mr.  Edison’s  railway  was  in  opera¬ 
tion.  I  recollect  no  conversation  with  Mr.  Edison 
upon  the  subject  of  the  Siemens  railway. 

x  Q.  45.  I  now  repeat  to  you  question  34,  and  re¬ 
quest  a  direct  answer? 

A.  Yes. 

tat oifelS*"0 ™ to 

x-Q.  47.  How  do  you  know  that  Siemens’s  railwav 
™  m  use  Prior  to  that  of  Mr.  Edison? 

A.  By  the  aforesaid  published  account  of  the  ex- 
xubitioii  of  the  same. 

x-Q.  48.  Did  the  account  mention  the  exact  date 

dsewhere?SlemenS  K,flWay  WaS  1186(5  at  Bnlsselis  or 
A.  I  do  not  remember. 

How  tbea  ^  Ton  get  the  impression 
from  the  account  - that  the  Siemens  railway  was 
used  before  that  of  Edison?  J  ,as 

A.  Because  while 1  am  perhaps  not  able  to  re¬ 
member  exact  dates  when  at  the  time  of  reading  an 

article,  the  subject-matter  as  embodying  a  descrip¬ 
tion  of  the  principles  on  which  a  machine  is  con¬ 
structed  and  means  by  which  it  is  operated,  im¬ 
press  themselves  on  my  memory,  still  I  am  will¬ 
ing  to  testify  as  to  the  priority  of  one  period  over 
another  when  months  intervene. 

-  x-Q.  50.  Do  you  mean  that  you  read  this  account 
before  Edison’s  railway  was  in  operation,  or  that 
there  was  some  date  contained  in  the  account  which 
enables  you  to  swear  that  you  discovered  that  Sie¬ 
mens’s  railway  was  used  before  that  of  Mr.  Edison? 

A.  There  was  some  month,  season  or  date  which 
enabled  me  to  place  it  prior  to  the  operation  of  Mr. 
Edison’s  railway. 

x-Q.  51.  Was  the  date  which  you  refer  to  in  your 
last  answer  the  date  of  publication  of  the  article? 

A.  That  I  do  not  know. 

x-Q.  53.  Was  the  Siemens  railway  fully  described 
in  the  article? 

A.  Tes;  in  a  popular  way. 

x-Q.  53.  Was  it  an  illustrated  article? 

A.  It  was. 

x-Q.  54.  Do  you  remember  how  many  illustrations 
the  article  contained? 

A.  I  think  two. 

x-Q.  55.  Describe  those  illustrations,  if  you 

A.  One  illustration  was  a  wood-cut  showing  the 
electric  locomotive  and  car  with  passengers  thereon, 
and  locomotive  driver  in  position  operating  the 
same ;  as  I  remember  the  other  it  was  a  line  draw¬ 
ing  on  a  large  enough  scale  to  show  the  construc¬ 

x-Q.  50.  How  many  columns  of  descriptive  mat¬ 
ter  were  there  in  the  article  ? 

A.  I  cannot  state  definitely. 

x-Q.  57.  In  what  language  was  the  article  written 
—English  ? 

A.  I  don’t  remember. 

x-Q.  58.  What  languages  are  you  familial-  with  ? 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 


I’rench.  SllShj  ^  ^  trans,ate  German  and 

JZ50'  m°r°  We  ^ou  -hen  you  read  the 
■A.  At  Menlo  Park 


*sfskH £sF~s»3r**- 

not  in  the  daily  pressT'  ^  that  «»  article  was 


M  £*  £«««  EI«owJ».»  "  the  K»* 

you  are  enabled  to  reooUeTso  d^’  ‘he  fact  that 
^edin  printing  the^S?  thet^a 

collect  in  what  language  the  arif  7 ^  UUabIe  io  re‘ 
the  name  of  the  paper!  i  f  Was  written,  or 
A.  Because  what  has  ful  l  *  Was  Published  ? 

s  as?*—-  fers 

A.  No. 

diseased  tta!?fc  y°U  rememher  to  have  heard* 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 

A- -I  have  faint  recollections  of  speaking  about 
the  Siemens  railway  while  at  Menlo  Park,  with 
whom  I  do  not  recollect. 

x-Q.  G8.  Do  you  remember  what  was  said  about 
if  at  the  time  mentioned  in  your  last  answer  ? 

A.  I  do  remember  the  fact  that  some  conversa¬ 
tion  in  a  sarcastic  vein  passed  between  myself  and 
some  person  whom  I  do  not  remember  about 
the  Siemens  electric  railway. 

x-Q.  G9.  What  occasion  was  there  for  sarcasm  in 
discussing  the  Siemens  railway  V 
A.  The  facts  about  the  railway  as  we  read  and 
interpreted  them  from  the  cuts  and  article  before 

x-Q.  TO.  In  using  the  word  “we”  in  vourlast 
answer,  what  persons  do  you  refer  to? 

A.  I  refer  to  the  individual  previously  men¬ 

x-Q.  Tl.  Were  the  sarcastic  remarks  referred  to 
made  by  yourself  or  the  person  with  whom  you 
were  conversing? 

A.  Both  parties;  as  I  recollect,  it  was  an’  ex¬ 
change  of  opinions  with  no  chance  for  dispute. ' 

x-Q.  T2.  What  was  the  sarcastic  remark  made  bv 
you  at  that  time? 

A.  My  remarks  had  reference  to  the  performance 
otthe  Siemens  locomotive  at  that  exhibition,  as  de¬ 
scribed  in  the  before-mentioned  article. 
x-Q.  T3.  Why  should  your  remark  be  sarcastic? 
A.  In  view  of  the  success  of  the  Edison  system 
having  been  demonstrated. 

x-Q.  1  i.  I  still  fail  to  understand  why  your  re¬ 
marks  should  be  sarcastic;  please  explain  further. 

A.  A  comparison  of  the  results  obtained  by  Sie¬ 
mens  with  those  results  obtained  by  the  Edison  sys- 
tsm,  simply  brought  on  that  vein  when  talking  of 
and  comparing  the  two.  . 

x-Q.  To.  What  were  the  results  of  the  Siemens 
sj’stem  to  which  you  refer? 

A.  Slow  speed  and  light  loads,  and  the  fact  that 
from  the  illustrations  and  description  the  whole  sys- 

208  Charles  L.  Claris. 

tem  app^d  small  and  like  a  laboratory  experi- 

article?  ^  ^  the  Speed  mentioned  in  the 

A.  No. 

A  V®'  .?id  ?°U  0btain  the  Publication? 

n  the  literature  at  Menlo  Park 

EdloM  tlle  scrap-book  devoted  to  or 

^0S  ?  P«Wtal» 

the  pQarty  JIT  ^  ~k  “»*»  by 

e  party  with  whom  you  were  conversing? 
marks  d°n0t  rememW  the  particular  of  the  re- 

A.  No. 

A.Qi  havfd  70U  ever  meet  Professor  Barker? 

Aisrs^,*it’rt,h  h"» 

A.  I  did  not. 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 


x-Q.  8S.  You  discussed  the  matter  with  him  often 
a.rrd  thoroughly,  did  you? 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  SO.  You  called  his  attention  to  everything 
which  would  be  of  interest  in  reganl  to  the  electric 
railway,  did  you  not? 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  90.  How  do  you  account  for  the  fact  that  in 
all  your  discussions  and  talks  with  Mi-.  Edison  no 
word  passed  between  you  in  regard  to  the  Siemens 

A.  I  do  not  say  that  no  conversation  passed  be¬ 
tween  myself  and  Mr.  Edison  regarding  the  Siemens 
railway,  but  I  have  no  recollection  of  such  conver¬ 
sation  did  it  ever  take  place. 

x-Q.  91.  What  kind  of  a  dynamo  electric  machine 
was  used  at  Menlo  Park  in  connection  with  the  Edi¬ 
son  railway? 

A.  Edison’s  dynamo  electric  machine. 
x-Q.  92.  Please  describe  the  armature  of  that  ma¬ 

A.  The  armature  consisted  of  a  soft  iron  cylinder 
on  the  shaft.  On  this  cylinder  was  wound  coils  of 
insulated  wire.  The  two  ends  of  th-se  coils  were 
•  properly  connected  to  the  separate  bars  of  a  com¬ 
mutator  on  the  same  shaft,  said  commutator  being 
niade  up  of  copper  bars  insulated  from  one  another 
and  arranged  in  the  form  of  a  cylinder. 

x-Q.  93.  Are  you  acquainted  with  what  is  known 
is  the  Sienieds  armature,  described  in  works  on 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  94.  What  differences  can  you  point  out  be¬ 
tween  the  Siemens  armature  and  the  armature  of 
Mr.  Edison,  just  referred  to  by  you? 

A.  Symmetrical  connection  of  the  coils  to  the 
commutator;  proper  proportioning  of  the  conduc¬ 
tivity  of  the  coils,  so  as  to  attain  a  maximum  ecoh- 
6  ny  in  the  distribution  of  the  electrical  energy  upon 
the  circuit;  a  minimum  development  of  the  energy 
on  the  armature  in  the  form  of  heat;  prevention  of 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 


heating  of  the  mass  of  the  armature  and  consequent 
loss  of  energy;  mechanical  perfection  which  assures; 
durability,  reliability  and  economy. 
x-Q  95.  You  would  designate  then  the  Edison 

•  rsLurs^5provement  upon  “at-  * 

A  I  designate  it  as  an  Edison  armature,  the  out- 

ShSr o£  which-referring  to 

x-Q,  no.  Are  you  acquainted  with  the  machine, 
k*?'™  .M  p|10  ‘‘Heffner  Alteneck  machine, ’•  de¬ 
scribed  in  late  electrical  publications,  and  known 
also  sometimes  as  the  “  Siemens  machine?" 

A.  Not  m  detail. 

AQNoT'  DM  70U  6Ver  Se°  SUch  “  machi"e? 
TTeffn'0,9S'AH°  y°?  kn°"'  ho"r  the  mature  of  the 

Ks"1"** or  s,“”“  ™»"'» » ™- 

5ita  “>  n0‘  “»■’  tbe  .letaib  o(  ,W,  m„. 

tllf  Please  describe  ««  method  of  generating 
the  electric  cun-ent  in  the  Edison  machine?  * 

in revoSSh  1 

A.  Yes. 

-V01-  Intbe  Edison  machine  how  are  the  coils 

KS,.rsifr“tea'vl,u  *"* 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 


A.  Mr.  Ed:son‘s  usual  method  is  to  connect  the 
coils  on  the  magnet  in  derlvfcd  circuit  to  the  external 

By  consent,  the  taking  of  further  testimony  is 
postponed  to  Monday,  December  12,  1SS1  at  10 
A.  M. 

"War.  H.  Meadowchoft, 

Notary  Public, 

N.  Y.  Co. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment,  the  taking  of  testimony 
was  resumed  on  Monday,  December  12,  1881,  same 
counsel  being  present. 

x-Q.  102.  In  the  electric  locomotive  used  at  Menlo 
Pa-k,  as  illustrated  in  Exhibit  No.  2(>,  please  ex¬ 
plain  how  the  current  from  the  rail  was  carried 
through  the  wheel  to  the  motor  of  the  locomotive? 

A.  The  tires  of  the  locomotive  wheels  were  elec- 
t  rically  insulated  from  the  hubs,  and  therefore  from 
the  rest  of  the  locomotive  in  a  manner  already  de¬ 
scribed  in  my  answer  to  Question  7.  This  insulation, 
as  before  mentioned,  preventing  a  cun-ent  from 
passing  directly  from  rail  to  lail  through  the  body  of 
the  locomotive  itself.  The  current  of  electricity 
passed  from  the  rail  to  the  tines  of  the  locomotive 
wheels  in  contact  witli  that  rail,  through  the  arms 
and  to  the  hub  of  the  spider;  then  through  tho  brush 

(all  of  which  mechanism  I  have  previously  described 

m  detail);  thence  by  insulated  wire  through  the  cur¬ 
rent  reversing  switch;  from  said  switch  through  the 
motor  armature;  thence  by  insulated  conductor  to 
tho  spiders  and  tines  of  the  wheels  on  the  opposite 
side  of  the  locomotive  to  the  other  rail. 

x-Q.  102.  Was  the  construction  described  in  your 
last  answer  essential  and  requisite  to  the  proper 
working  of  the  locomotive.  I  have  reference  par¬ 
ticularly  to  the  insulation  of  the  flanges  and  tread 
of  the  wheel  from  the  huh. 

A.  Yes.  •.  ' 

x-Q.  108.  Do  you  find  the  appliances  made  use  of' 
in  tho  locomotive  experimented  with  at  Menlo  Park 


Charles  L.  Clarke. 

&r  inaidaiing  the  flange  and  tread  of  the  wheel' 

SZthTt  t,’  WhlC’lIunftetandyou  to  state  are 
essential  to  the  woi  king  of  the  locomotive, shown  in, 
a.ay  one  of  the  exhibits  which  have  been  submitted 
toJ0,h  mai'ked  1  to  ll  inclusive! 

x-Q.  104.  Why  then  did  you  state  in  answer  to 

SeS  thatf y°-U  f0Und  in  thoso  exllibits  a»  the 

essential  elements  m  accordance  with  which  the 
operatedln'tia>  ^  Mon,oPai'k  was  constricted  and. 
whole"  SPrlDS  1SS°’  in  detail  and  as  a 

,  ^  B.e<f  u.f  “edifications  of  the  means  by  which 
a  principle  itself  is  applied  to  use,  in  most  cases  e 
quire  a  modification  of  details  themselves.  ’ 

al^'t  nf  tn  ?  a-ny  mo.dificatio»  °r  mechanical  equi  v- 
^ent  of  the  devices  said  to  have  been  used  at  Menlo 
Park  for  insulating  the  flange  and  tread  of  the 
wheel  from  the  huh  thereof,  shown  in  any  one  of 

tom"  ,  SK?  'V'"'h  r°" 

A.  Yes. 

Am  **  <. 

A.  Exhibits  8,  10  and  11 

T  C  l  Ur t  le  !‘T  “bits  you  1,ave  referred  to?  y 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 


x-Q.  110.  If  the  conductor  is  insulated  from  the  . 
rail,  the  current  does  not  pass  from  the  rail  to  any 
part  of  any  of  the  wheels,  does  it? 

A.  It  may. 

x-Q.  111.  If  the  conductor  is,  as  you  say,  insulated 
from  the  rail,  how  does  the  current  get  from  the 
conductor  to  the  rail,  as  shown  in  the  exhibits  re¬ 
ferred  to? 

A.  By  first  passing  through  the  armature. 

x-Q.  112.  Well,  where  does  the  current  go  after 
it  passes  the  armature? 

A.  To  the  rail. 

X_Q- 113.  Which  of  the  rails — both  of  them  or  one 
of  them? 

A.  According  to  my  interpretation  of  Exhibit  No. 
11,  to  both. 

x-Q.  114.  What  mechanical  means  are  shown  in 
the  exhibits  for  conducting  the  current  from  the 
armature  to  the  rails? 

A-  I  see  none. 

x-Q.  115.  Your  answer  then  to  Question  113  is  an 
exercise  of  the  imagination,  and  not  based  upon 
mechanical  devices  shown  in  the  exhibits? 

A.  There  is  no  exercise  of  imagination  on  my 
part  in  answering  the  question  referred  to. 

x-Q.  110.  Does  the  current  flow  from  the  rail, 
through  the  wheel,  to  the  motor,  in  the  exhibits 
just  referred  to? 

A.  Not  necessarily. 

x-Q.  117.  Are  any  mechanical  devices  shown  in 
the  exhibits  referred  to  by  means  of  which  the  cur¬ 
rent  can  flow  from  the  rail,  through  the  wheel,  to 
the  motor? 

A.  No. 

x-Q.  118.  If  no  mechanical  devices  are  shown  in 
the  exhibits  referred  to  by  means  of  which  the  cur¬ 
rent  can  flow  from  the  rail  through  the  wheel  to 
the  motor,  why  do  you  say  that  you  find  in  those 
exhibits  mechanical  equivalents  of  the  devices  said 
to  have  been  used  at  Menlo  Park  for  causing  the 
current  to  pass  from  the  rail  through  the  wheel  to 
the  motor? 


Charles  L.  Clarke. 

raif'+)lh  w?tsai?  the  current  Passes  from  the 
lail  th  ough  the  wheel,  to  the  motor,  but  have  said 
that  it  does  not  necessarily  pass  in  that  direction. 
mf  ind  llblt  N°-  x}’  as  drawn  and  interpreted  hy 
me,  unless  mechamcal  means  were  taken  to  connect 
he  armature  to  the  tires  of  the  wheels  andrailf 
the  electrical  circuit  would  be  incomplete.  A  device 
is  shown  connecting  the  conductor  between  the  rails 
to  the  locomotive,  but  details  of  its  connection  to 

tor  blushes  and  connecting  wires 
siemaim?-  10  1  aMe  to  interPret  *  the 

th^wheel  resting  on  the  rail,  to  the  mS  '°USh 


support  holding  the  device  matin  ™aturc  to  .the 
the  conductor,  shown  I'T*11 
sketch.  The  portion  of  the  •  ^  of  the 

|  Charles  L.  Clarke.  213  , 

which  is  omitted  in  the  sketch,  being  the  commuta¬ 
tor  brushes. 

x-Q.  122.  you  to  exercise' your  im- 
!  agination  or  for  an  interpretation  not  based  upon 
what  is  actually  shown  in  the  exhibits,  but  what  I 
do.  ask,  is,  as  stated  iu  the.  last  interrogatory,  that 
you  will  please  designate  the  mechanical  devices,  if 
any,  shown  in  those  exhibits,  which  cause  the  cur¬ 
rent  to  flow  from  the  rail,  through  the  wheel  rest¬ 
ing  on  the  rail  to  the  motor  of  the  locomotive? 

A.  Ko  mechanical  devices  did  cause,  as  stated  in 
the  question,  the  current  to  flow  in  the  direction 
mentioned  in  the  question,  hut  if  the  electrical  pres¬ 
sure  were  in  the  direction  stated  in  my  last  answer, 
the  current  would  flow  in  the  direction  and  through 
the  mechanism  before  described,  upon  closing  the 
circuit  hy  means  of  the  commutator  brushes,  which 
hr, vo  boon  omitted  in  this  sketch.  It  requires  no  im¬ 
agination,  I  trust,  on  my  part,  to  place  commutator 
brushes  where  they  belong. 

x-Q.  123.  In  your  answer  to  Question  7,  you  say 
that  in  the  railway  used  at  Menlo  Park,  Mr.  Edison 
connected  the  ends  of  the  rails  hy  a  strip  of  copper 
placed  underneath  the  fish  plate  and  firmly  bolted 
to  the  rail  with  the  same;  in  any  of  the  exhibits 
from  1  to  11,  inclusive,  is  any  such  connection  of 
the  rails  shown? 

A.-  I  see  none. 

x-Q.  124.  Is  any  mode-  of  insulating  the  rails 
shown  in  the  Exhibits  1  to  11,  inclusive? 

A.  In  Exhibits  Nos.  3,  0,  8,  10  and  11,  the  rails 
are  shown  as  insulated. 

x-Q.  125.  How  does  that  method  of  insulation  dif¬ 
fer  from  the  way  in  which  the  rails  are  insulated  in 
an  ordinary  steam  railway;  say,  for  instance,  the 
elevated  railways  in  this  city? 

A.  I  see  no  difference. 

x-Q.  120.  In  the  dynamo  electric  machine  used  at 
Menlo  Park,  for  generating  current  to  the  rails, 
and  electric  locomotive,  how  were  the  conducting 
wires,  wound  lengthwise  of  the  cylindrical  arma- 
•  ture,  kept  separated? 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 

nMl  wound 

coils.  '  ‘  U  t  0t“  i01'  j'wulation  between  the 

W2w  in  e'f, S:"no dynamo  «»«***  machine. 

maenSs  b  °  t!’e.L'T'e<1  brailrf'<*  of  the  electro 

SCtlSSKJt  S5£r  “*  — ► 

closing  the  armature,  thov  wore  mi  ” 

A.  I  think  the  coils  wore  connected  in  derived 
there  wiis  a  cvlindi^lS;"0  5  .'’Machine 

A.  Yes.  ”  l’  "“Sltl,0t? 



bam  made  to  rotate’  Portion  of  the 

y’  loi-  Wasthe  WtoM*  over  which  the  W 

Charles  L.  Clarke.  215 

lated  conducting  wires  were  wound  lengthwise 
formed  as  described  in  Mr.  Edison’s  patent  for  mag¬ 
neto-electric  machines  by  winding  soft  iron  wires  in 
such  a  manner  as  to  form  an  annular  cylinder! 

A.  I  am  quite  postive  it  was  not. 

x-Q.  135.  Do  you  remember  about  how  many 
groups  of  insulated  conducting  wires  were  wound 
lengthwise  upon  the  cylinder? 

A.  As  I  remember,  six. 

x-Q.  13C.  Were  the  coils  kept  separate  by  radial 
projections  at  each  end  of  the  evlinder? 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  137.  Were  the  convolutions  of  the  insulated 
conducting  wires  wound  on  the  outer  periphery  of 
the  cylinder  made  to  bend  round  in  such  a  man¬ 
ner  as  to  clear  the  shaft! 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  13S.  Were  the  terminals  of  the  conducting 
wires  wound  lengthwise  of  the  cylinder  secured  to 
insulated  bars  on  the  rotating  commutator? 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  131b  Wore  those  bars  arranged  cylindrical!  y 
around  the  shaft  on  which  the  armature  was  fixed! 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  140.  How  many  brushes  were  made  to  bear 
upon  the  insulated  bars? 

A.  Two. 

x-Q.  141.  Were  these  brushes  fixed  on  insulated 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  142.  How  were  the  brushes  or  insulated  sup¬ 
ports  on  which  they  were  placed  connected  to  the 
terminals  of  the  machine? 

A.  They  were  connected  directly  to  the  terminals 
of  the  machine  by  short  leading  wires. 

x-Q.  143.  In  the  same  dynamo  machine,  as  the 
cylinder  rotated,  a  succession  of  electric  currents  was 
caused  along  the  wires  of  the  successive  coils  upon 
the  cylinder,  I  suppose? 

A.  I  will  state  more  correctly  that  a  succession  of 


Charles  L.  Clarke. 

electrical  pressures  were  created  in  the  successive 
coils  on  the  armature. 

x-Q.  142.  The  currents  thus  generated  were  trans¬ 
mitted  to  the  insulated  bars  on  the  commutator  and 
successively  earned  to  the  metallic  brushes’ 

A.  Yes. 

„0^'Q-U.3-  Did, tlle  current  or  part  thereof  thus 
generated  pass  from  the  brushes  to  the  coils  of  the 
electro-magnet  and  increase  its  magnetism? 

•  I!01’ti01!  °.f  the  current>  if  the  magnets 
were  m  derived  circuit,  as  I  have  already  said 
were,  did  pass  through  the  coils  of  the 

“fthe ma^ 5tnecesSai,ilyinoreaset»esh'engtI. 

)Vhat  diffel'ence  there  between  the 
dynamo-electric  machine,  as  described  thus  far  hi 

rhirtriln1i0nVa,1Cl  the  dy»™°-electric 

machine,  known  as  the  Siemens  or  Heffner  Alte 
neck  machine,  and  shown  in  the  dra wines  of 
•  Siemens  utv  lived  in  this  interference? 

V-o  !T-Tev0t  seo“th®  doings  referred  to. 
vemwt  Toui'Pr°fessionasan  electrical  engineer 
rende.s  it  necessary  for  yon  to  thoroughly  fnnbliar 

chmL0Te,f-,Wih  the  leatlinS  dynanfo-e  ectrfc ma-' 
chines  described  in  works  upon  tire  subject  of  elec¬ 
tricity  and  periodical  articles,  does  it  not? 

A.  Yes,  to  the  extent  that  time  not  reouired 

acriveprafessiona!  duties  will  permit  me  to  do  so 

n/tne  •  1  suppose  y°“  ti^e  often  read  accounts 
sofa?«4t  J°?  the,  “achine  used  at  Menlo  Park 

Sea‘i0n  ^  Skthera  Sone'dTf- 

Charles  L.  Clarke. 

217 . 

come  to  my  knowledge,  the  magnet  coils  have 
formed  a  portion  of  the  main  external  circuit. 
Re-direct  by  Cob.  Dyer,  ix  behalf  of  Edison: 

Re-d.  Q.  149.  Referring  to  your  answers  to  cross¬ 
question  103  and  subsequent  questions  immediately 
following  with  regard  to  details  of  construction  and 
mode  of  operation  illustrated  in  Edison’s  Exhibits, 
l’to  li;  inclusive— state  whether  or  not,  at  the  date 
of  such  exhibits,  namely,  May,  1S79,  commutators 
and  the  mode  of  applying  them,  were  not  well 
known  among  electricians? 

A.  Yes. 

Re-d.  Q.  150.  Statewliether or  not,  at  the  same 
date,  insulated  railway  car  wheels,  also,  were  well 

A.  Yes. 

Re-d.  Q.  151.  Also,  answer  as  to  electrical 

A.  Yes. 

Re-d.  Q.  152.  Also,  as  to  a  variety  of  ways  of  run¬ 
ning  and  connecting  electrical  conductors;  I  mean, 
broadly,  the  manipulation  of  electric  conductors? 

A.  Yes. 

Re-d.  Q.  153.  Calling  your  attention  to  Edison’s 
Exhibits  H,  10  and  11,  and  to  the  fact  that  they  are 
entitled  “electric  tramways,”  and  show  an  electric 
locomotive  mounted  upon  rails,  would  it,  in  your 
judgment,  require  anything  more  than  the  effort  of 
electrical  skill  to  proride  the  mechanical  appliances 
which  are  wanting  in  those  sketches,  to  make  the 
locomotive  operative? 

Counsel  for  Siemens  objects  to  the  question 
as  suggestive,  and  also,  that  the  witness,  on 
account  of  the  business  relations  existing  be¬ 
tween  him  and  Mr.  Edison,  is  not  qualified  to 
testify  as  an  expert  in  this  case. 

A.  No. 

Re-d.  Q.  154.  State  whether  or  not,  in  the  an¬ 
swers  to  the  cross-interrogatories  before  referred  to, 

you  understood  such  interrogatories  to  be  limited  to 


Charles  L.  Clarke. 

the  precise  construction  shown  in  the  exhibits  in¬ 
quired  about,  and  answered  accordingly? 

A.  In  the  answers  referred  to,  my  remarks  I  in¬ 
tended  to  be  the  strict  and  close  interpretation  of 
the  drawings  in  Exhibits  S,  10  and  11. 

Cl  IAS.  L.  CliARKE. 

I,  W  illiam  H.  Mbadowcroft,  a  Notary  Public 
within  and  for  the  City  and  County  of  New  York 
and  State  of  New  York,  do  hereby  certify  that  the 
foregoing  depositions  of  Julius  F.  Hornig,  John 
■KYuesi,  Thoims  A.  Edison.  Frauds  R.  Upton,  John 
0:  t.0.  L,  Dean,  G.  F.  Barker, C.  T.  Hughes, and  Char¬ 
les  ij  Clarke  wore  taken  on  behalf  of  Thomas  A.  Edi- 
son, in  pursuance  of  the  notices  hereunto  annexed  be¬ 
fore  me  at  No.  05  Fifth  avenue,  in  the  City  of  New 
York,  on  the  10th,  17th,  18th,  21st,  22d,  23d,  and 
-oth  days  of  November,  and  the  7th,  8th,  nth,  10th, 
and  12th  days  of  December,  18S1 ;  that  each  of  the 
smd  witnesses  was  by  me  duly  sworn  before 
the  commencement  of  his  testimony ;  that  tho  testi¬ 
mony  of  the  said  witnesses  was,  by  consent  of  all 
parties,  written  out  by  Henry  W.  Seely ;  that  C.  S 
Whitman,  representing  the  opposing  party,  Siemens, 
■and  Messrs.  F.  W.  Whitridge  and  William  D.  Bald¬ 
win,  representing  the  opposing  partv,  Field,  were 

present  during  the  taking  of  said  testimony;  that 
the  taking  of  said  testimony  was  commenced  at  tho 
jme  and  place  designated  in  said  notices,  and  was 
concluded  on  the  12th  day  of  December,  1881 ;  and 
that  lam  not  connected  by  blood  or  marriage  with 
“L0;.  1th0.  sa'a  nor  interested,  directly  or 

indirectly,  m  the  matter  in  controversy. 

In  testimony  whereof  I  have  hereto  set 
my  hand  and  official  seal  at  said 
City  of  New  York  this  13th  day  of 
December,  A.  D.  1SS1. 

.Lseal]  Wm.  H.  Meadowcboft, 

Notary  Public, 

New  York  County. 


To  Mbs.  Lraom  &  Leooot,  Attornej-e  a*. 

dav  to  day  until  completed. 

na)  J  Dyer  &  Wilber, 

For  T.  A.  Edison. 

.  Service  acknowledged.  IjEGGETTi 


Charles  Clarke  Znte  l  ?T’  ^ 

others,  in  behalf  of  5  iLS  am!  °nd 

examination  from  day  to  **" 

Dyeu  &  WnjjEii, 

Sendee  acknowledged  October  Tit^  & 

_  S.  J.  Gordon. 


j  Interference  Derm- 
f  mo  Electric  Jin- 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

day  therein  named,  either  in  person  or  by  attorney, 
as  follows: 

Nathaniel  S.  Keith,  in  person. 

Thomas  A.  Edison,  by  Oeo.  W.  Dyer,  his  counsel. 

Charles  F.  Brush,  by  L.  L.  Leggett  and  H.  A. 
Seymour,  counsel. 

S.  J.  Gordon,  counsel  for  Keith,  not  being  pres¬ 
ent,  it  was  stipulated  that  his  right  to  object  to 
questions  on  behalf  of  Keith  should  be  reserved. 

The  testimony  was,  by  consent  of  the  parties,  re¬ 
duced  to  writing  by  Henry  W.  Seely,  who  was  first 
duly  sworn  to  record  the  same  faithfully. 

Wm.  H.  Meadowcroft, 

Notary  Public, 

\  N.  T.  County. 

j  Thomas  A.  Edison,  a  witness  produced  in  his  own 

'  ,  behalf,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  follows,  in  an¬ 

swer  .  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  George  W. 
Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison: 

I  Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 

j  occupation. 

/  A.  Thomas  A.  Edison;  residence,  Menlo  Park, 

N.  J.;  age.  thirty-four;  occupation,  inventor. 

Q.  2.  When  did  you  first  conceive  of  the  idea  of 
regulating  the  active  force  of  a  magnet  by  inter¬ 
posing  a  resistance  in  its  circuit  or  by  varying  the 
current  by  means  of  a  shunt  containing  an  adjust- 

j  able  resistance! 

I  Question  objected  to  on  the  ground  that  the 

question  calls  for  testimony  relating  to  sub¬ 
ject  matter  in  nowise  constituting  the  issue 
in  this  interference. 

t  A.  I  think  I  conceived  this  some  time  in  1S72,  but 

I  find  it  reduced  to  practice  in  a  patent,  No.  100,405, 
filed  July  29,  1S73. 

Q.  3.  Is  this  conception,  referred  to  in  the  pre¬ 
vious  question,  embraced  in  patents  which  have 
been  issued  to  you,  and  if  so,  in  what  patents  and 
when  were  the  applications  filed  on  which  these 
patents  were  based? 

Same  objection  as  to  previous  question. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

13  A.  Embraced  in  Patent  147,917,  filed  July  27th, 

1873  ;  219,393,  filed  July  10th,  1S79  ;  195,751,  filed 
January  27th,  1S75  ;  Patent  108, 3S5,  filed  January 
26th,  1S75;  Patent  ISO,  330,  filed  May  10th,  1876. 

Notice  is  given  that  copies  of  the  above 
patents  will  he  put  in  evidence  before  this 
testimony  is  closed.  Meanwhile  a  hound  vol¬ 
ume  containing  the  patents  in  question  is  ten¬ 
dered  for  examination. 

14  Q  *■  Please  to  explain  briefly  wherein  the  invention 
referred  to  in  the  previous  answer  is  found  in  these 
patents  respectively. 

Objected  to  as  immaterial  and  incompetent 
for  the  reasons  before  given. 

A.  In  Patent  147,917,  the  strength  of  a  magnet 
in,  through  which  there  is  a  constant  current  pass-  1  i 

ing,  has  its  magnetism  varied  by  means  of  an  ad- 
justable  resistance  n.  In  Patent  No.  219,393,  a 

15  shunt  circuit  round  the  field  magnet  of  a  dynamo  is 
shown,  whereby  its  strength  can  be  varied.  In 
Patent  195,751,  the  strength  of  a  magnet  in  the 
line  is  varied  by  an  adjustable  resistance  placed  in  a 
shunt  around  it.  In  Patent  1  OS,  385,  a  constant 
field  magnet  has  its  strength  regulated  by  an  ad¬ 
justable  resistance  placed  in  a  circuit  containing  a 
constant  current.  In  Patent  180,330,  a  constaut 
field  magnet,  made  magnetic  by  a  helix  through 
which  a  current  passes  constantly,  the  strength  of 

10  the  field  magnet  being  varied  by  an  adjustable  re¬ 
sistance  placed  in  the  constant  circuit.  In  my 
answer  to  question  3,  I  left  out  Patent  100,405, 
upon  which  the  application  was  filed  July  29th’ 

1873  This  patent  shows  an  adjustable  rheostat 
placed  m  a  shunt  around  an  electro  magnet,  for 
varying  the  strength  of  the  same. 

Q.  5.  Referring  to  Patent  No.  100,405,  just  men¬ 
tioned  by  you,  was  the  invention  therein  described 
put  by  you  in  actual  use,  and  if  so,  to  what  extent  ? 

Same  objection  as  before. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  put  by  me  in  actual  use  on  17 
the  Automatic  Telegraph  Company’s  lines,  between 
New  York  and  Washington,  about  July,  1S73.  I 
think  several  of  them  were  used  on  the  line.  I 
have  used  the  same  apparatus  constantly  for  differ¬ 
ent  purposes  since  1873,  as  the  patent’s  name  will 
show,  in  the  manner  shown  by  the  patents  and  in 
various  other  ways  not  shown  by  the  patents. 

Q.  0.  Please  examine  Patent  No.  224,511,  granted 
to  C.  P.  Brush,  February  17th,  1SS0,  being  the 
patent  involved  in  this  interference,  and  state  18 
whether  you  understand  the  same? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  I  do  understand  it.  Ill 
fact  I  am  quite  sure  I  understand  it. 

Q.  7.  Comparing  the  said  Patent  224,511,  with 
your  Patent  100,  405,  what  essential  difference  is 
there,  if  any,  in  the  two  inventions. 

A.  There  seems  to  be  no  difference  to  me  in  the 
inventions.  The  purposes  for  which  the  inventions 
are  to  be  used,  or  rather  the  connections  in  which 
they  are  to  be  used,  are  different.  But  the  inven-  19 
tion  is  the  same. 

Q.  S.  Could  the  connections  with  the  electro-mag¬ 
net,  employed  by  you  in  Patent  No.  100,405,  be 
equally  well  employed,  and  with  the  same  effect 
with  a  dynamo  machine  of  the  character  shown  in 
Patent  224,511. 

Objected  to  as  incompetent  and  imma¬ 
terial.  . 

A.  All  that  would  be  necessary  would  be  to  rotate  20 
an  induction  bobbin  between  the  poles  of  the  mag¬ 
net  shown  in  Patent  160,405,  and  connect  one  end 
of  the  wire  from  the  induction  bobbin  to  the  wire 
marked  /  on  the  left  hand  side  in  Patent  100,405. 

The  other  end  of  the  wire  from  the  induction  bobbin 
and  the  wire  marked  /  on  the  right  hand  side  would 
form  the  poles. 

1  Q.  9.  When  was  it  that  you  made  the  application 

'  of  the  same  principle  referred  to  in  your  previous 


answer  to  the  magnets  of  a  dynamo  or 
electric  generator. 

Objected  to  on  the  ground  that  thus  far  it 
has  not  been  shown  that  lie  has  over  applied 
the  principle  set  forth  in  any  of  the  patents 
to  which  he  has  referred  to  a  magneto  or  dy¬ 
namo-electric  machine. 

A.  In  patent  ISIS, 330  the  figure  on  the  right  hand 
top  of  the  drawings  of  that  patent  shows  an  ap¬ 
paratus  which  in  that  connection  is  used  as  a 
motor,  hut  which  can  he  either  used  as  a  magneto 
machine  or  a  motor  without  change  of  construction, 
^  is  proved  by  my  subsequent  patent  21S,10G.  In 
this  mechanism  shown  in  patent  ISC, 330  there  is  a 
field  magnet  in  the  form  of  a  vibrating  iron  core, 
which  iron  core  is  surrounded  by  a  helix  of  wire 
through  which  a  constant  current  from  a  battery, 
”  ’  circulates,  and  within  this  circuit  is  included  an 
adjustable  resistance  whereby  the  strength  of  the 
current  exciting  the  field  of  force  helix  may  be 
varied.  This  apparatus  is  fully  described  and  set 
rorth  m  the  specification.  In  October,  1S7S,  I  varied 
the  strength  of  the  field  of  force  magnets  by  an  ad¬ 
justable  resistance  which  was  in  the  circuit  of  the 
field  magnet  and  not  in  a  shunt  around  the  same. 
Some  time  in  February,  1S79,  I  varied  the  strength 
ot  a  held  magnet  in  a  dynamo  machine  by  vaiying 
the  resistance  of  a  shunt  around  the  field  magnet  as 
is  shown  in  my  patent  219,393. 

p  ?'  1,°-  R®  now  t0  tlle  iss"es  set  up  by  the 
-ratent  Office  in  this  interference,  to  wit:  “first  a 
dynamo-electric  machine  constructed  or  combined 
with  suitable  devices  for  primarily  varying  the 
strength  of  the  current  exciting  its  field  of  force 

Second.  “In  a  dynamo  electric  machine,  the 
combination  with  one  or  more  of  its  inducing  or 
held  of  force  electro-magnets  of  an  adjustable  re¬ 
sistance  whereby  the  strength  of  the  current  ap- 
plied  to  said  magnets  may  be  determined  and  gov¬ 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

erned  and  varied.”  When  did  you  make  the  inven¬ 
tion  thus  described  in  these  issues? 

A.  The  application  of  this  principle  to  a  dynamo 
electric  machine  is  shown  as  I  have  already  stated 
in  niy  patent  ISO,  330.  In  October,  1S7S,  I  used  a 
dynamo  electric  machine  combined  with  a  resist¬ 
ance  for  primarily  varying  the  current  of  the  field 
of  force  magnets,  which  resistance  was  adjustable 
for  governing  the  strength  of  said  magnets.  This 
machine  which  I  used  was  known  as  the  Wallace 
machine,  which  was  brought  into  my  laboratory 
some  time  in  September,-  1S7S,  which  machine  was 
used  by  me  for  experiinentinc  oil  incandescent 
lamps.  Since  that  date  I  have  continuously  used 
dynamo  electric  machines  of  various  kinds  without 
intermission,  in  which  the  strength  of  the  field  of 
force  magnets  was  varied  by  means  of  an  adjusta¬ 
ble  resistance,  and  I  do  not  remember  more  than  one 
or  two  occasions  where  I  used  dynamo  machines  in 
which  this  variable  resistance  was  not  used.  In  fact 
the  nature  of  the  lamp  which  I  have  been  experi¬ 
menting  on  since  1S7S,  is  such  that  I  could  not  have 
used  a  dynamo  machine,  except  I  used  devices  for 
regulating  the  strength  of  the  field  of  force  magnets; 
and  I  have  in  my  various  applications  and  caveats 
spoken  of  the  fact  that  I  use  a  constant  or  separate 
circuit  for  exciting  the  field  of  force  magnets,  but  I 
never  made  a  claim  to  the  use  of  an  adjustable  re¬ 
sistance  in  the  circuits  of  such  field  magnets  until 
my  attention  was  called  to  the  fact  by  Major  Wil¬ 
bur,  in  the  latter  part  of  1S79,  that  this  might  be 
patentable.  In  my  patent  No.  227, 22S,  filed  Feb¬ 
ruary  3d,  1S79,  paragraph  55,  I  speak  of  a  constant 
field  of  force  magnet;  also  in  my  patent  227,229,  filed 
April  21st,  1S79,  paragraph  40,  I  speak  of  a  constant 
electromagnet.  I  also  speak  of  a  separately  ener¬ 
gized  field  of  force  magnet  in  my  patent  222,  SSI, 
filed  September  20th,  1S79;  also  in  my  patent  219,393; 
I  also  speak  of  various  devices  and  means  for  regu¬ 
lating  the  strength  of  a  constant  field  magnet  In  my 
caveat  filed  August  7, 1879;  I  also  speak  of  a  con- 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 


regulating  a  maS  7’,  the.^of 

the  theariylnt  ^  a~ra»“the°‘  lamf'Tn 
ine  early  part  of  1ST3-  t  ,  ■- 

an  apparatus  a  short  time  previous  to  May  To 
1S.C,  meeting  the  counts  in  this  interference  which 
apparatus  was  made  and  used  and  worked  at  m 
P-k.  a'ulon  the  liSi*  E 


times  intermittently, "and  afte"'' October  iSTS^con3 

All  that  portion  of  the  answer  is  objected 
to  which  pretends  to  carry  the  date  of  the 
hiSonin01’ the  re'1UCtion  t0  Prance  of  the 
81  ante  "latino-"  T*  PtW  to  Septembei'>  WS,  as 
That  portion  ?  ti  pr0,,minnry  statement, 
mat  portion  of  the  answer  relating  to  ti,n 

nwcMne^  r  i,,vcntion  in  the  WbMoco 
aTs  n  e  M  hisml0?  0  ?  th6«roanfl  ““tthe 


Thomas  A.  Edison. 

Q.  11.  In  j'our  previous  answer  you  say  :  “I  de-  33 
vised  an  apparatus  a  short  time  previous  to  May  1C, 

1870,  meeting  the  counts  in  this  interference.-’ 
Please  state  whether  or  not  such  apparatus  was  em- 
braced  in  a  patent,  and  if  so,  give  the  number"  of 

Objected  to  as  calling  for  testimony  ante¬ 
dating  the  preliminary  statement. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  embraced  in  a  patent,  No. 

ISO, 330,  and  is  there  used  as  a  motor.  I  have  ex-  », 
plained  the  operation  of  this  apparatus  in  a  previous 

Q.  12.  Was  the  Wallace  machine  about  which 
,  you  have  testified  as  used  Menlo  Park  in  September, 

1878,  a  dynamo  electric  machine? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  13.  Do  you  know  where  that  machine  is  now? 

If  so,  state  where? 

A.  I  had  two  machines;  one  a  large  one,  and  one 
a  smaller  one,  both  of  which  were  uDed  in  the  man-  35 
ner  I  have  stated.  The  smaller  one  was  returned  to 
Mr.  Wallace  some  time  in  the  early  part  of  1879; 
the  other  I  have  still  in  my  possession. 

Q.  14.  Do  you  know  what  became,  of  the  resis¬ 
tances  and  connections  which  were  used  with  the 
Wallace  machine  which  was  returned? 

A.  I  think  I  have  a  great  number  of  them  at 
Menlo  Park,  and  can  produce  them  if  desired. 

Q.  15.  Will  yo”  make  search  for  the  same,  so  as 
to  have  them  here  on  Monday  morning?  33 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  will.  I  also  think  I  have  some 
sketches  relating  to  this  matter,  and  will  produce 
them  also. 

Q.  10.  Where  is  the  Wallace  machine  which  was 
not  returned,  which  you  say  you  think  you  have  in 
your  possession? 

A.  It  is  at  my  shop  at  Goerck  street,  New  York. 

I  am  willing  to  offer  it  for  inspection.  The  machine 
weighs  about  a  ton  and  a  half,  and  would  be  incon¬ 
venient  to  present  as  an  exhibit  in  this  case. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

37  Q.  IGA.  With  what  other  dynamo  electri  cina- 
chines,  if  any,  did  you  employ  resistance,  and  their 
connections  in  the  manner  and  for  the  purposes  set 
forth  in  the  issues  of  this  interference,  and  when 
and  where? 

A.  I  employed  it  in  the  magneto  machines  shown 
in  patent  21S.1GG.  I  employed  it  in  a  Gramme 
machine  in  the  early  part  of  1S79,  and  in  all  of  my 
own  machines  made  since  the  early  part  of  1S79,  at 
my  laboratory  at  Menlo  Park;  on  the  steamship 

38  City  of  Columbia,  which  was  put  in  May,  1SS0;  in 
November,  1ST!),  I  made  a  elaborate  regulator  for 
regulating  the  pressure  upon  my  mains  at  Menlo 
Park,  employing  several  dynamo  machines, 
lighting  up  my  laboratory  and  several  houses 
in  the  vicinity  with  about  100  incande¬ 
scent  lights ;  such  regulator  being  made 
especially  that  its  operation  might  be  explained  to 
the  public.  Between  November,  1S79,  and  February, 
1SS0,  more  than  20,000  people  came  to  see  tho  exhi- 

39  bition,  a  majority  of  whom  had  this  explained  to 
them.  The  regulator  which  I  .have  spoken  of 
served  to  regulate  the  strength  of  the  field  of  force 
magnets  of  the  several  dynamos  employed  by  me, 
by  the  use  of  a  variable  resistance  thrown  in  and 
out  of  circuit.  The  necessity  of  an  increase  or 
decrease  of  the  strength  of  the  field  of  force  mag¬ 
nets  being  indicated  by  a  galvanometer. 

Objection  is  made  to  that  portion  of  the 
answer  relating  to  tho  regulator,  said  to  have 

4°  been  made  in  November,  1879,  as  the  thing 

itself  should  be  produced  for  inspection  and 
introduced  in  evidence  if  it  is  to  be  relied 
upon  to  prove  a  reduction  to  practice  by  the 

Q.  17.  Upon  an  examination  of  your  English 
patents,  just  made  by  you,  do  you  find  the  subject 
matter  of  this  interference  embraced  in  any  one  of 
them,  and  if  so  what  one,  giving  the  number  and 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

Q.  IS.  Have  you  in  your  possession  the  magneto 
electric  machine  referred  to  in  a  previous  answer, 
made  according  to  the  specification  of  patent  218,- 
100,  and  having  regulating  devices  as  explained  by 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  I  can  find  the  machine. 
I  will  try.  The  regulator  which  I  spoke  of  in  the 
answer  referred  to,  I  will  produce  when  required, 
as  also  the  regulators  used  by  me  in  1S78  and 

Counsel  for  Brush  requests  that  this  regu¬ 
lator  he  produced  and  filed  as  an  exhibit. 

Q.  19.  What  kind  of  resistances  did  you  use  in 
1S7S  with  your  dynamo  electric  machines,  and  what 
kind  have  you  used  since? 

Objected  to  in  so  far  as  it  calls  for  anything 
prior  to  September,  1S7S,  the  date  set  up  in 
the  preliminary  statement. 

A.  I  here  produce  a  sketch  and  order  and  de¬ 
scription  which  I  find  in  my  shop  order  book,  dated 
March  4th,  1879,  in  the  bandwriting  of  Mr.  Batch¬ 
elor,  one  of  my  assistants,  and  March  19th,  1S79,  by 
“  J.  K.,”  meaning  John  Krucsi,  the  foreman  of  the 
shop.  Around  this  bobbin  of  wood  was  wound 
naked  copper  wire,  so  that  it  would  radiate  the  heat 
generated  by  the  current,  by  permitting  air  to  cir¬ 
culate  all  around  the  bare  wire.  The  two  ends  of 
these  wires  so  wound  around  this  block  were  con¬ 
nected  to  two  binding  posts  on  the  top  and  so  ar¬ 
ranged  that  a  plug  could  throw  the  wire 
in  and  out  of  circuit.  This  kind  of  coil 
was  used  from  September,  1878,  up  to  the  present 
time,  for  regulating  the  strength  of  the  field  of 
force  magnets  of  a  dynamo-electric  machine;  a 
number  of  these  being  connected  together  and 
thrown  in  and  out  of  circuit,  either  by  taking  the' 
plugs  in  and  out  of  each  coil,  or  they  were  arranged 
and  connected  to  a  circular  commutator  or  rheo- 
tome,  having  a  movable  arm  which  placed  a  greater 
or  less  number  of  coils  in  the  circuit  of  the  field  of 

A.  Edison. 

force  magnet,  when  the  arm  was  rotated  in  one  or 
the  other  direction. 

A  copy  of  the  sketch  and  entry  in  the 
order-book  referred  to,  is  put  in  evidence  and 
marked  “  Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  1.” 

Counsel  for  Brush  objects  to  the  filing  of  a 
cop}',  and  requests  that  the  original  sketch, 
with  its  descriptive  matter,  be  introduced, 
and  that  it  be  not  removed  from  the  book  in 
v  Inch  it  is  contained,  that  the  record  of  this 
invention  may  not  be  mutilated  but  presented 
intact  for  inspection  at  the  Patent  Office. 

Counsel  for  Edison  withdraws  liis  notice, 
and  states  that  he  will  file  instead  a  photo¬ 
lithographic  copy  of  the  page  containing  the 
entry  in  question. 

Counsel  for  Brush  does  not  waive  his  for¬ 
mer  objection. 

Q.  20.  Has  there  been  any  intermission  since  Sep¬ 
tember,  1878,  in  your  open  and  public  use  of  the 
invention  set  up  in  the  issues  of  this  interference. 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  21.  Have  you,  since  the  earliest  date  men¬ 
tioned  in  the  previous  question,  made  many  dynamo- 
electric  machines  of  various  sizes,  constructed  and 
combined  with  devices  such  as  are  set  up  in  the 
issues  of  this  interference.  If  so,  please  give  some 
statement  as  to  number  and  size  ? 

A.  I  have  made  them;  about  seventy-five  ma¬ 
chines,  weighing  about  a  ton;  one  machine  weigh¬ 
ing  five  tons;  one  machine  weighing  nine  tons;  an¬ 
other  weighing  sixteen  tons;  and  another  one  weigh¬ 
ing  twenty-one  tons.  All  these  machines  bad  their 
field  of  force-magnets,  varied  in  strength  by  means 
of  adjustable  resistances,  as  set  out  in  the  interfer¬ 
ence  referred  to. 

By  consent  the  taking  of  further  testimony 
was  postponed  to  Monday,  October  17th, 
1881,  at  ten  o’clock  A.  M.,  at  same  place. 

Wm.  H.  Meadowcroff, 

Notary  Public, 

N.  T.  Co’. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 


Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  taking  of  testimony 
was  continued  on  Monday,  October  17th,  1SS1,  same 
parties  being  present. 

Q.  22.  Have  you  read  the  testimony  taken  in  be¬ 
half  of  Mr.  Keith  in  this  interference,  and  have  you 
also  examined  his  Exhibit  Xo.  1  put  in  testimony. 

Q.  23.  I  call  your  attention  to  the  testimony  of 
William  Hochhausen,  and  particularly  to  folio  91 
of  that  testimony,  and  ask  you  to  explain  the  in¬ 
vention  therein  described. 

A.  The  statement  there  made  is,  that  the  current 
that  was  shunted  from  the  magnet  was  not  wasted, 
but  that  it  did  work  in  a  detinning  solution. 
Xow  from  this  I  infer,  in  fact  if  the  statement  is 
correct,  there  must  have  been  a  detinning  bath 
intei  polated  in  the  circuit  of  the  shunt,  otherwise 
the  current  shunted  would  be  wasted.  On  the  other 
hand  the  putting  in  of  the  shunt  actually  reduced 
the  current  in  the  main  detinning  bath.  If  the 
shunt  was  as  in  the  Exhibit  Xo.  1,  the  current 
which  was  shunted  could  not  be  otherwise  than 
wasted  by  being  radiated  from  the  shunt  in  the 
form  of  heat.  Hence,  if  the  statement  is  correct 
that  the  current  which  was  shunted  was  not  wasted, 
there  must  have  been  a  tinning  bath  in  the  circuit 
of  the  shunt. 

Q.  24.  Since  testifying  on  Saturday,  have  you 
made  a  further  examination  of  your  caveat  papers 
with  a  view  of  determining  whether  or  not  the  sub¬ 
ject  matter  of  this  interference  is  included  in  any 
of  them  ;  and  if  so,  in  what  caveats  and  when  were 
they  filed? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  made  an  examination.  I  find 
m  my  caveat  Xo.  94,  dated  December  20th,  1S79, 
devices  are  described  which  cover  the  issues  in  this 
interference.  I  find  in  this  caveat  the  following 
language:  “For  energizing  the  field  magnets  of  the 
subsidiary  generators  I  use  a  dynamo-electric  ma¬ 
chine,  the  current  from,  which  passes  through  the 
field  magnets  of  all  the  subsidiary  generators  either 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

large  number  of  resistai 
subdivided  so  that  each 

nultiple  arc.  In  this  circuit  I  place 
f  resistance  coils  of  large  wire,  an 
bat  each  has,  say  one-fiftieth  of  a 

the  strength  of  the  current  in  the  field  magnets  of 
the  subsidiary  generators.  This,  in  its  turn,  in¬ 
creases  or  decreases  the  strength  of  the  current  in 
the  induction  bobbins  between  them,  and  this  cur¬ 

rent,  in  its  turn,  increases  or  decreases  the  strength 
of  the  field  magnets  in  the  main  line  generators,  and 
cause  a  rise  or  fall  in  the  pressure  or  electro-motive 
force  of  the  line  currents,  according  as  more  or  less 
energy  is  drawn  from  the  station  by  putting  on  or 
taking  off  more  or  less  lamps  or  electric  engines. 
Thus  I  am  enabled  to  cause  a  rise  or  fall  in  the  elec¬ 
tro-motive  force  by  turning  of  the  commutator.  To 
indicate  the  rise  or  fall  of  electro-motive  force,  the 
operator  at  the  commutator  has  before  him  the  elec¬ 
tro-dynamometer,  as  well  as  several  standard  lamps, 
to  indicate  the  rise  and  fall.” 

Counsel  for  Edison  gives  notice  that  the 
original  caveat  referred  to  in  the  previous  an¬ 
swer  will  be  produced  at  the  hearing,  and  a 
copy  of  the  same  is  now  tendered  for  exam¬ 

Q.  25.  Since  your  examination  of  Saturday  have 
you  found  exhibits  bearing  upon  the  issues  of  this 
interference.  If  so,  produce  them,  with  explana¬ 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  found  some  exhibits  which  I 
now  produce.  The  coils  of  wire  which  I  now  pro¬ 
duce  were  used  by  me  about  February,  1879,  and 
were  placed  in  the  circuit  of  the  field  magnet 
of  a  dynamo-electric  machine,  to  regulate  the 
strength  of  the  current  passing  through  the 
same.  The  rlieotome,  with  movable  handle, 
the  rods,  and  index  wheel  formed  the  regulating 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

61  mechanism  spoken  of  by  me  in  my  testimony  as 
benn,  put  up  ...  November,  ’T9,  for  the  purpose  of 
gi\  mg  an  exhibition.  The  buttons  or  contact  points 
ot  the  rheotome  wore  connected  to  a  series  of  re- 

Sr  t!S  SU,nl,ai  ,0  th°  C0ils  wliich  1  make  my 
exhibit,  the  rheotome  was  placed  in  the  second 
story  and  the  handle  of  the  rheotome  was  connected 
by  a  rod  to  a  table  in  the  first  story  where  the  gal 
vanometer  indicating  the  electric  pressure  upon  the 
S3  stem  was  placed.  Placing  the  coils  of  wire  in 
“"y  and  meaas  for  indicating  the  pressure  in 
another  story  was  for  the  purpose  of  preventing 
nnssei  7  on  «*« 'galvanometer  of  the  current  which 
passed  through  the  coils.  The  coils  and  this  rlieo- 
tome  were  interpolated  in  the  circuit  of  the  field  of 
CS  V"  a  •  Kp9ntor  or  'esser  number  of 
arm  of  f  ?  th/°"'n  ™  tho  by  moving  the 

tl  e  cLll  1'!,eo.t1ome’  tbus  varying  the  strength  of 
the  cui lent  m  the  consumption  circuit  to  meet 

63  ah-ead  S  ';0nd'tl°ns-  Tbis  aPl>a''atus  was,  ns  I  have 
SnfaLu  ed’  ac4S"alIy  l,8ed  and  “hiWted  and 
of  month  Tn{  th0Usnnd  PeoPl°  within  a  couple 
ued  in  one  r1'  «  "S  ‘T*  in  °Puratl'bn-  «  contin: 
Wo  P  ra‘j°“  thl'0USh  »H  my  exhibitions,  and 
from  the  e,nUtiyb<i?  tnkon  down  and  disconnected 
°  ,  Th",e.t0  maku  c'1!,nges  in  tho  labora- 

strot'chea  Septeraber>  1S7S>  m-agnet  coils  and 
ofthefifld'off  'Vei'6  USfid  t0  re£nlate  tlie  strength 
bv  beint  be  t  I1'08  magnets’  but  tbe  stretched  wire 
jj,  byb^g,  ated  exPanded  out  of  shape  and  the 

exhibit,  and  are  now  furnished  with  each  machine 
The  resistance  coils  spoken  of  in  the  pre- 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

Q.  26.  When  }-ou  used  these  resistance  coils,  Ex- 
limits  2,  3  and  1,  in  February,  1S79,  were  any 
devices  used  for  varying  the  resistance,  and  if  so 

-Y  Yes,  sir  ;  several  coils  were  placed  in 
a  circuit,  and  the  total  resistance  wras  varied  by 
plugging  in  or  out  one  or  more  coils,  provision  be¬ 
ing  made  on  tbe  top  of  each  coil  for  performing  that 

Q-  Since  February,  1S79,  have  these  Exhibits 
Nos.  2,  3  and  4  been  used  continuously  at  Menlo  GC 
Park,  with  a  dynamo-electric  machine,  in  the  man¬ 
ner  and  for  the  purposes  stated  in  the  issues  of  this 
interference  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  have  been  used  continuously 
up  to  about  six  months  ago,  when  I  left  tho  labora¬ 
tory  and  came  to  New  York,  where  some  of  similar 
construction  are  used  and  sold  to  the  public  in  the 
connection  and  for  the  purpose  of  which  I  have  al¬ 
ready  testified. 

Q.  2S.  When  were  these  Exhibits,  2,  3  and  4.  67 
disconnected  from  the  machine  for  the  purpose  of 
making  repairs  in  the  laboratory  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  in  July  or  August,  1881,  al¬ 
though  I  am  not  certain  of  these  dates.  It  might 
have  been  later;  certain]}-  not  earlier.  The  coils 
which  form  my  Exhibits  2,  3  and  4,  are  only  a  few 
of  those  which  I  have  of  the  same  general  kind. 

Q.  29.  What  method  or  plan  did  }-ou  adopt  for 
vaiying  the  resistance  next  after  using  the  plugging 
system  ?  us 

A.  The  use  of  a  rheotome  for  throwing  in  and 
out  the  coils. 

The  rheotome  referred  to  is  put  in  evidence 
and  marked  “Edison’s  Exhibit,  No.  5.”  The 
connecting  rods  marked  “Edison’s  Exhibit, 

No.  6,”  and  the  plate  for  holding  the  con¬ 
necting  rods  “Edison’s  Exhibit,  No.  7.” 

Q.  30.  I  understand  that  this  particular  rheotome, 
marked  Edison’s  Exhibit,  No.  5,  was  first  put  in 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

69  use  in  November,  1879.  How  long  did  the  use  of 
this  particular  rheotome  continue  ? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  it  was  put  in  use  pre¬ 
vious  to  November,  lb79.  I  think  as  far  hack  as 
June  or  July,  1879,  hut  it  was  not  put  up  in  the 
manner  I  have  described,  so  that  its  operation 
could  be  made  clear  to  the  public,  until  November, 
1S79.  As  to  the  length  of  use  of  this  particular 
rheotome,  that  is  embraced  in  a  former  answer. 

Q.  31.  Since  that  date,  namely,  June  or  July, 

70  1S79,  of  this  kind  of  rheotome,  have  you  made  and 
used  and  sold  substantially  the  same  device  with 
dynamo  electric  machines. 

A.  Yes,  sir,  rheotomes  and  resistance  coils  sub¬ 
stantially  like  the  exhibits. 

Connsel  for  Edison  here  rests  his  examina¬ 
tion  of  this  witness  and  offers  him  for  cross- 


71  Counsel  fob  Bkusii. 

x-Q.  32.  What  is  the  prime  object  of  the  invention 
in  issue. 

A.  The  letter  from  the  Patent  office  defining  the 
object  is  the  best  evidence  of  that.  I  understand 

_  x-Q.  33.  I  do  not  desire  your  opinion  on  a  ques 
tion  of  law,  but  desire  your  understanding  of  the 
prime  object  of  the  invention  in  issue. 

A.  My  understanding  of  the  points  in  issue  is  a 

72  dynamo  electric  machine  or  magneto  electric  ma¬ 
chine  or  electro  motor  of  any  kind  or  character  hav¬ 
ing  the  strength  of  the  constant  field  of  force  varied 
by  regulating  the  strength  of  the  current  circulating 
through  a  magnet;  and  my  further  understanding 
is  the  use  of  an  adjustable  resistance  to  vary  the 
strength  of  a  magnet  making  a  constant  field  either 
in  a  motor  or  a  dynamo  or  magneto  electric  ma¬ 

x-Q.  34.  Is  not  the  prime  object  of  the  invention 
in  issue  to  primarily  vary,  regulate  or  adjust  the 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

strength  of  the  main  current  generated  by  one  or  a 
battery  of  magneto  or  electro  dynamic  machines. 

A.  Yes,  but  as  these  electro  dynamic  or  magneto 
electric  machines  are  convertible  engines,  and  can 
be  used  either  for  generating  currents  or  act  as  mo¬ 
tors  to  perform  work,  and  utilize  current,  the  points 
at  issue  cover  motors  as  well. 

x-Q.  35.  For  present  purposes  we  will  allow  the 
office  to  determine  the  scope  of  the  issues  in  this  in¬ 
terference.  I  now  desire  to  know  simply-  this;  is 
not  the  prime  object  of  the  invention  in  issue  to 
Primarily  vary  the  strength  of  the  main  current 
generated  by  one  or  a  battery  of  magneto  or  dyna¬ 
mo  electric  machines. 

The  question  is  objected  to  for  the  reason 
that  the  Patent  Office  having  defined 
the  issues  in  controversy,  all  inquiry  outside 
of  those  issues  becomes  incompetent,  and  the 
issue  does  not  say  anything  about  a  battery  of 
magneto  or  dynamo-electric  machines. 

Counsel  for  Brush  would  suggest  that  if 
any  question  is  competent,  certainly  the 
question  calling  for  an  explanation  of  the  ob¬ 
ject  to  be  attained  by  the  improvement  which 
the  witness  alleges  he  has  invented,  is  a  com¬ 
petent  question,  for  if  anybody  knows,  what 
that  object  is,  the  witness  must. 

A.  If  it  is  desired  to  know  what  my  object  was, 

I  will  state  that  it  was  as  is  stated  by  the  Patent 
Office  in  defining  the  issues  of  this  interference,  and 
extended  to  dynamo  machines,  when  used  as  elec¬ 

x-Q.  36.  What  is  the  object  of  varying  the 
strength  of  the  field  of  force  magnets  of  a  dynamo 

A.  My  object  is  to  keep  the  pressure  or  electro¬ 
motive  force  constant  in  the  main  circuit. 

x-Q.  37.  Irrespective  of  the  work  it  has  to  do? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  3S.  Then  the  prime  object  of  the  invention 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

77  disclosed  in  yc 
to  primarily  v 
of  the  main  cu 

ir  application  in  tin’s  interference  is 
iy,  adjust  or  regulate  the  strength 
s^t  not"erjte<1  bj'  thC  ^nal»o-elec- 

A.  In  my  application  in  controversy  the  system 
of  using  lamps  in  multiple  arc  is  the  one  used  t  ' 

x-Q.  ■'«.  By  varying  the  strength  of  the  field  nf 
S^ma^ets,  you  attain  one  .Lit,  do  you  not 

-  psps 

A.  If  the  resistance  was  nlarpd  in  „  • 

remain  constant  A  portion  nfii  achmo  wouId 
ance  coils  placed  in  the  Ld  of  W  m°w^ 

gulfed t  S.  CbaeP!dty  °f,a  dyDam°  “SS 

strength  of  its^fieldofforeenia^et^^andfe'rodone 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

x-Q.  42.  And  the  object  to  be  obtained  in  your  an- 
plication  in  interference  by  varying  the  strength  of 
the  field  of  force  magnets  is  to  primarily  vary,  regu¬ 
late  or  adjust  the  strength  of  the  main  current,  is  it 

A.  Yes,  in  one  sense  it  is. 
x-Q.  43.  In  Letters  Patent  No.  100,405,  granted 
to  you  March  2d,  1ST5,  do  you  therein  find  any  So 
statement  nr  suggestion  relative  to  the  varying  or 
adjusting  or  regulating  the  strength  of  the  main  cur¬ 
rent;  was  this  the  object  of  the  invention  disclosed 
m  the  said  patent? 

A.  I  find  in  that  patent  that  an  electro-magnet 
had  a  shunt  circuit  placed  around  it  containing 
a  variable  resistance  for  primarily  regulating  the 
strength  of  the  current  passing  through  the  magnet 
and  as  both  the  shunt  and  the  magnet  formed  part 
of  the  main  telegraphic  circuit,  an  increase  or  de-  83 
crease  in  the  resistance  of  the  shunt  and  magnet 
would  necessarily  produce  an  increase  or  decrease  in 
the  strength  of  the  current  on  the  main  line. 

x-Q.  44.  What  I  wish  to  know  is  this,  do  you  find 
m  Letters  Patent  No.  100,405,  any  hint  or  suggestion 
that  the  object  of  the  invention  was  to  primarily 
vary  the  strength  of  the  main  current? 

A.  The  object  was  to  vary  the  strength  of  the 
main  current  within  the  magnet;  but  the  object  for 
which  the  invention  is  to  be  used  does  not  alter  the  S4 

x-Q.  45.  Prior  to  the  invention  shown  in  patent 
160,405,  instead  of  regulating  the  attractive  force  of 
the  electro-magnet  as  described  in  said  patent,  it  had 
long  been  the  custom  to  regulate  the  force  of  the 
retractile  spring  connected  with  the  armature,  had 
it  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  believe  it  had. 
x-Q.  40.  Prior  to  the  date  of  this  invention,  and 
long  prior,  it  had  been  customary  to  regulate  the 

85  strength  of  an  electro  magnet  bv  means  of  a  vari-i 

B,,MoTh0iPat<!l!|;0fficcsnvono  reference  on  that 
Stre"  ’°  .pi,tent  was  e''anto<1-  an<l  I  know 
of  no  instance  previous  to  that  patent. 

-vy.  4<.  In  duplex  systems  of  telegraphy,  nat- 
on  ed  long  prior  to  the  .late  of  patent  160, JOB,  were 
the  1'?s,s1ta,lces  employed  in  a  shunt  around 

,  teivmg  instrument,  the  latter  provided  with 
86  e  ectro-magnets  and  affected  oa  desired  by  the  va 
able  resistance  in  the  shunt. 
p'4',1  do  "Ht  Cidl to  attention  any  cases  of  this  kind 
except  in  some  of  my  duplex  inventions  in  1878 
'' here  a  resistance  was  shunted  around  an  electro- 

to  mtneta  h  TT'?  C'm,Witer>  not  a  si'“l>Ie  elec- 
a?net,  m  all  duplexes  which  I  now  call  to  mind 
.e  resistance  was  in  the  same  circuit  with  the  mag- 
ct,  I  ha\  e  not  all  the  duplex  patents  by  me 


"ft,.*”?  1,a‘int  Xa  -'i’°07’  granU'd  t0  Closes 
as  follows  <^0hem  e‘;  ■  5tlV  IS49‘  This  c,ailn  reads 


eren  etoSinetthiS  Pat°nt’  Particularly  with  ref- 
88  and  then  JS ^  A  “>«' **». 

g  ogether  an  electro-magnet,  one  of  which 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

serves  to  shunt  a  portion  of  the  current  from  one  of  89 
the  sections  of  the  electro-magnet,  while  it  does  not 
affect  the  other  sections  of  the  electro-magnet;  the 
rheostat  of  Farmer  might  he  so  adjusted  that  while 
a  strong  current  was  passing  through  the  electro¬ 
magnet,  the  iron  would  have  no  magnetism,  but 
this  is  not  possible  with  my  invention,  and  he  states 
in  Ins  specification  that  the  object  of  his  device  is  to 
obviate  the  defect  of  not  having  both  coils  properly 
proportioned,  one  with  the  other;  it  is  in  fact  a  dif¬ 
ferential  magnet,  and  to  obtain  a  perfect  balance  90 
and  render  the  magnet  operative,  the  shunt  is  used 
upon  a  portion  of  the  wire  around  the  magnet. 

x-Q.  40.  Is  not  the  active  force  of  the  electro¬ 
magnet  in  Farmer’s  receiving  instrument  varied, 
regulated  or  adjusted  by  means  of  a  variable  resist¬ 
ance  placed  in  a  shunt  circuit? 

A.  Not  directly,  but  indirectly,  and  by  a  different 

x-Q.  50.  It  was  old,  then,  was  it  not,  long  prior 
to  your  invention  to  regulate  the  active  force  of  a  94 
magnet  by  a  variable  resistance  located  in  a  shunt 

A.  Not  directly. 

x-Q.  51.  Not  directly  what— old? 

A.  It  was  old  to  regulate  it  indirectly,  but  not  old 
to  regulate  it  directly,  as  in  my  invention;  in  the 
case  of  Farmer’s  invention,  the  action  of  the  rheo¬ 
stat  upon  the  compound  magnet  would  be  the  oppo¬ 
site  of  its  action  when  applied  to  the  simple  magnet 
shown  in  niy  patent,  for,  when  he  adjusted  it  to  92 
accomplish  the  object  which  he  desired,  any  change 
in  the  resistance  of  the  rheostat,  whether  its  resist¬ 
ance  was  diminished  or  increased,  would  strengthen 
the  electro-magnet,  and  this  is  not  so  in  my  inven¬ 
tion,  shown  in  patent  160,405,  in  which  an  increase 
of  the  resistance  of  the  shunt  will  strengthen  the 
magnet,  and  a  decrease  in  the  resistance  of  the 
shunt  will  weaken  the  magnet. 

x-Q.  52.  I  have  not  asked  you  to  point  out  the 
particular  differences  of  construction  and  operation 

93  existing  between  Fanner’s  1S59  patent  and  yours, 
No.  100, -to.'),  lmt  I  desire  to  know  this,  does  not  the 
Farmer  patent  show  that,  broadly  speaking,  “  the 
idea  of  regulating  the  active  force  of  a  magnet  by 
interposing  a  resistance  in  the  current,  or  by  vary¬ 
ing  the  current  by  means  of  a  shunt  containing  an 
adjustable  resistance;”  was  old  long  prior  to  your 

A.  The  use  of  a  shunt  around  one  coil  of  a  dif¬ 
ferential  magnet,  I  think,  was  known  many  years 
49  previous  to  1S59;  it  was  the  common  method  of 
evening  up  the  dissimilarity  between  the  two  coils 
in  galvanometers;  but  I  know  of  no  instance  where 
the  strength  of  the  iron  core  of  a  simple  electro¬ 
magnet  was  varied  by  means  of  an  adjustable 
shunt  placed  around  a  single  helix  of  wire,  covering 
the  iron  core,  except  in  my  patent  aforesaid. 

x-Q.  53.  Question  repeated. 

A.  I  can  make  no  other  answer. 

x-Q.  54.  I  now  read  a  paragraph  from  the  Farmer 
95  patent,  wherein  he  acknowledges  the  state  of  the 
art  as  it  existed  prior  to  1S50:  “In  Figure  3  I 
have  represented  the  rudiments  of  a  previously 
known  plan  for  transmitting  two  messages  simul¬ 
taneously;  when  the  key,  K,  is  depressed,  the  cur¬ 
rent  from  the  battery,  B,  splits  or  forks  at  the 
point,  U,  and  half  goes  through  the  helix,  1,  on  one 
leg  of  the  magnet,  and  half  through  the  helix,  2, 
on  the  other  leg  of  the  magnet,  the  two  half  cur¬ 
rents  neutralizing  each  the  effect  of  the  other,  and 
90  the  relative  strength  of  the  two  halves  being  ad¬ 
justed  by  the  rheostat,  R;”  I  desire  that  you  exam¬ 
ine  Figure  3,  in  connection  with  this  paragraph, and 
state  if  you  are  still  of  the  opinion  that  you  are  the 
first  to  invent  the  principle  or  “  the  idea  of  regulat¬ 
ing  the  active  force  of  a  magnet  by  interposing  a 
resistance  in  the  current,  or  by  varying  the  current 
by  means  of  a  shunt  containing  an  adjustable  re¬ 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  believe  I  am.  In  Figure  3,  the 
resistence  is  not  in  the  shunt,  but  in  the  same  line 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

with  the  wire  around  the  leg  2  of  the  magnet.  By  97 
carefully  reading  your  question,  I  see  that  you  de¬ 
sire  me  to  answer,  regarding  the  regulation  of  the 
strength  of  a  magnet  placed  in  the  same  circuit  as 
the  coils  of  the  magnet  and  not  as  a  shunt  around 
the  coils..  So  placing  the  resistance  in  the  same 
circuit  with  the  coils  of  the  magnet,  I  believe  to  he 
even  older  than  the  Farmer  patent. 

By  consent,  the  taking  of  further  testi¬ 
mony  was  postponed  to  ten  o’clock  Tuesday 
morning,  October  IS,  1881.  9S 

Wit.  H.  Me  ado  wchoft, 

Notary  Public, 

X.  Y.Co.  ■ 

Pursuant  to  adjournment,  the  taking  of  testi¬ 
mony  was  continued  on  Tuesdaj',  October  ISth,  ISS1, 
at  10  o’clock  A.  M.,  same  parties  being  present. 

x-Q.  55.  Then  it  is  true  that  the  “idea  of  regu 
lating  the  active  force  of  a  magnet  by  interposing  a  99 
resistance  in  the  current  ”  was  old  and  well  known 
long  prior  to  your  invention,  is  it  not  ? 

A.  Placing  a  resistance  in  a  circuit  in  which  there 
is  a  magnet,  I  believe  was  done  long  prior  to  my 

x-Q.  50.  It  was  done  for  xvhat  purpose  ? 

A.  For  various  purposes. 

x-Q  57.  For  x-egulating  the  active  force  of  a  mag¬ 
net,  among  others  ? 

A.  I  do  not  call  to  mind  when  the  resistance  was  * ' 111 
intended  to  regulate  the  active  force  of  a  magnet 
when  the  same  was  placed  in  the  same  circuit  as 
the  magnet,  but  the  resistance  was  manipulated  to 
accomplish  other  objects. 

x-Q  5S.  In  the  use  of  the  resistance  indicated  in 
that  portion  of  the  Parmer  patent  last  referred  to, 
does  not  the  resistance  affect  the  magnet  to  prevent 
the  receiving  instrument  being  actuated  by  the 
sending  current  ? 

A.  Edison. 

patent  134.SG7  an  adjustable  resistance  is  shown, 
also  patent  141, 772  shows  a  shunt  circuit  with  an 
adjustable  resistance  attached.  In  patent  147,311  is 
shown  a  shunt  round  a  chemical  instrument  and 
also  round  a  plain  electro-magnet.  In  this  case  the 
electro-magnet  is  not  used  as  a  motor,  but  to  give 
induction  currents  whose  strength  relative  to  the 
chemical  instrument  is  varied  by  a  rheostat.  This 
is  more  clearly  set  forth  in  my  patent  147,317  in 
Which  a  constant  magnetic  field  is  regulated  by 
cutting  in  and  put  of  circuit  more  or  less  coils  around 
the  iron  cores  of  the  magnets. 

Counsel  for  Brush  introduces  in  evidence 
copy  of  patent  123.711  granted  to  George  Lit¬ 
tle,  February  13th,  1S72,  and  designates  it 
“Brush  Exhibit  1.” 

x-Q.  03.  Please  look  at  patent  No.  82,035,  dated 
October  0th,  ISOS,  granted  to  S.  F.  Day,  and  state 
whether  or  not  it  shows  a  resistance  in  a  circuit  for 
varying  the  active  force  of  a  magnet  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  it  does  not,  if  I  understand  it  right. 
There  is  a  constant  resistance,  and  the  relay  serves 
to  close  a  sounder  around  it.  It  is  the  action  of  the 
relay  which  varies  the  magnetism  of  the  sounder. 

Counsel  for  Brush  introduces  in  evidence 
copy  of  Letters  Patent  S2,G95,  granted  to  S. 

F •  Day,  October  Gth,  1SGS,  and  designates  the 
same  “Brush  Exhibit  Day  Patent.” 

x-Q.  G4.  Please  look  at  Letters  Patent  No.  130,426,  • 

granted  to  C.  H.  Haskins,  August  13th,  1872, 
wherein  is  found  the  following  statement : 

“J  is  a  common  rheostat  or  series  of  resistance 
coils  connected  to  a  switch  lever  in  the  local  circuit 
Y,  so  that  the  resistance  of  said  circuit  maybe  grad¬ 
uated  if  occasion  demands,  as  in  case  the  local  cur¬ 
rent  is  found  to  act  too  powerfully  as  compared  to 
the  main  circuit,  under  all  circumstances  or  varying 
circumstances,”  and  state  whether  or  not  you  find 
an  electro-magnet  located  in  a  circuit  provided  with 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

100  a  variable  resistance  for  regulating  the  active  force 
of  the  magnet! 

A.  I  find  that  the  device  in  the  patent  set  forth  is 
a  compound  device,  the  electro-magnet  having  two 
bobbins  upon  it,  one  portion  of  the  magnet  being  in 
the  mam  circuit,  the  other  portion  in  the  local 
circuit,  and  that  variations  in  the  magnet  are 
brought  about  by  opening  the  main  circuit ;  that 
were  there  no  extra  circuit,  the  device  would  he  in¬ 
operative  to  perform  the  functions  set  forth  in  the 

110  patent.  In  my  patent  12S,G05  of  July  2d,  1S72,  a 
constant  was  obtained  in  two  electro-magnets'for 
polarizing  them  in  the  same  manner  set  forth  in 
the  patent  of  Mr.  Haskins,  and  in  using  this  instru¬ 
ment,  resistance  coils  were  used  in  this  constant 
circuit  to  attain  a  balance  between  the  main  circuit 
and  the  constant  circuit.  I  find  in  the  patent  of  Mr. 
Haskins  an  adjustable  resistance  for  regulating  the 
activity  of  a  compound  magnet  containing  two 
cods  placed  in  separate  circuits,  but  Ido  not  find  an 

111  adjustable  resistance  for  adjusting  the  strength  of  a 
simple  magnet. 

Counsel  for  Brush  objects  to  that  portion 
of  the  answer  relating  to  the  patent  of  witness 
as  being  irresponsive,  needlessly  prolonging 
the  cross-examination  and  proper  subject  to 
be  brought  out  if  desired  in  re-direct  testi- 

x-Q  05  In  the  Haskins  patent  in  question,  you 
12  .  P]fmbr  shown  and  clearly  described,  do  you  not, 

a  simple  electro  magnet,  consisting  of  the  soft  iron 
armature  E  encircled  by  the  helix  D,  the  latter  lo- 
th,e  l0(;al  <i1I'cuit  in  wI»ch  is  placed  the  ad- 
Rhlw?  1'lle°stat  J  for  the  Purpose  of  varying  the 
stiength  of  the  soft  iron  armature  E,  in  this  case 

ssr- *■«*» — ■ 

A.  I  find  an  iron  core,  E,  encircled  by  a  helix  D, 
aiing  an  armature  A  A,  foi-ming  part  of  that 
electro-magnet,  which  armature  is  again  encircled 

Thomas  A.  Edison.”  29 

by  two  other  sets  of  coils  B  B  and  C  C,  one  set  of  113 
coils  C  C,  being  connected  in  the  same  circuit  with 
the  coil  D,  in  which  circuit  there  is  an  adjustable 
resistance,  the  whole  combined  to  form  a  compound 

x-Q.  GO.  Do  you  desire  to  be  understood  as  holding 
that  a  compound  magnet  located  in  a  circuit  provi¬ 
ded  with  an  adjustable  resistance  does  not  suggest 
or  disclose  “the  idea  of  regulating  the  active  force 
of  a  magnet  by  interposing  a  resistance  in  the 
current?  ” 

A.  It  might  suggest  the  idea  to  some;  that  would 
depend  upon  their  impressiveness  in  receiving 
suggestions.  0 

Counsel  for  Brush  introduces  in  evidence 
printed  copy  of  Letters  Patent,  No.  130,  420, 
granted  to  C.  H.  Haskins,  August  13th,  1S72, 
and  designates  the  same  as  “Brush  Exhibit 
Haskins  Patent.” 

x-Q.  67.  Please  look  at  Letters  Patent,  No.  110,- 
090,  granted  to  B.  B.  Toye,  December  13th,  1S70,  118 

and  state  whether  or  not  you  therein  find  an  adjust¬ 
able  resistance  located  in  the  circuit  containing  an 
electro-magnet  and  constructed  and  arranged  to  vary 
the  strength  of  the  magnet  at  will? 

A.  I  find  an  electro-magnet  placed  in  a  main  cir¬ 
cuit  with  two  wires  leading  from  a  portion  of  said 
electro-magnet,  such  wires  being  connected  or  dis¬ 
connected  by  a  switch,  but  the  shunt  circuit  thus 
formed  has  a  constant  resistance,  invariable  when 
the  switch  is  closed  and  broken  when  it  is  open.  18 

x-Q.  OS.  Where  a  number  of  coils  constitute  a  re¬ 
sistance  and  a  switch  is  employed  to  throw  in  and 
out  any  desired  number  of  the  coils,  it  is  a  self- 
evident  proposition,  is  it  not,  and  true  in  all  cases, 
your  own  patents  inclusive,  that  the  switch  being 
adjusted,  the  current  is  constant  until  the  switch  is 
again  adjusted,  and  when  the  switch  is  open  the 
circuit  is  broken? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  any  of  my  applications, 

117  "’here  the  switch  opened  the  circuit.  Where  the 
switch  is  used  to  open  the  circuit  it  is  a  very  differ¬ 
ent  matter. 

x-Q.  Oil.  For  once  will  you  please  give  me  a  cate¬ 
gorical  answer;  do  you  find  in  the  Toye  patent  an 
adjustable  resistance  located  in  the  circuit  of  an 
electro-magnet  for  varying  the  strength  of  the 

A.  No,  sir. 

Counsel  for  Brush  introduces  in  evidence 
copy  of  Patent  No.  110,090,  granted  to  B.  B. 
Toye,  December  18th.  1S70,  and  designates  it 
as  “  Brush  Exhibit,  Toye  Patent.” 
x-Q.  70.  Please  examine  Letters  Patent  142,480, 
dated  September  2d,  1S73.  granted  to  G.  Little,  and 
state  whether  you  therein  find  a  description  of  a 
device  adapted  to  produce  the  same  result 
in  substantially  the  same  way  as  that 
shown  in  your  patent  100,403.  In  connection  with 

119  tll<5  drawings  and  description  I  desire  to  refer  you 
particularly  to  the  following  paragraph  contained  in 
this  patent: 

“  A  rheostat  may  be  employed  with  connections 
to  the  main  line  at  opposite  sides  of  the  magnet  to 
cause  a  division  of  the  current,  part  passing  through 
the  magnet,  part  through  the  rheostat  and  part  en¬ 
tering  the  coil  or  condenser,  and  this  rheostat  may 
be  adjustable  or  of  the  required  resistance.” 

A.  It  is  the  same  as  in  my  patent  100,403,  but  I 

120  “esu'e  to  state  that  I  practiced  that  invention  before 
the  application  of  Mr.  Little. 

x-Q.  71.  Was  your  application  filed  July  29th, 
18(3,  and  on  which  Letters  Patent  100,403  were 
granted,  placed  in  interference  with  the  application 
of  Little  filed  October  3d,  1S72,  and  on  which  his 
patent  142, 4SC  in  question  was  granted? 

A.  I  don’t  remember  any  such  interference.  I 
find  that  my  patent  141,772  filed  November  9th, 
!S(w,  was  not  placed  in  interference.  It  has  a  de¬ 
vice  which  is  somewhat  similar. 

Thmoas  A.  Edis 

x-Q.  72.  Do  you  recall  the  name 
who  allowed  your  patent  100,405? 
A.  No,  sir. 

!  of  the  Examiner  jtjl 

Counsel  for  Brush  introduces  in  evidence 
printed  copy  of  Letters  Patent  142,480,  granted 
the  G.  Little  September  2,  1S73,  and  desig¬ 
nates  the  same  “  Brush  Exhibit  No.  2.” 
x-Q.  73.  Please  look  at  Letters  Patent  No.  33,209, 
granted  to  J.  E.  Smith  September  10tli,  1SG1,  and 
state  whether  or  not  you  therein  find  a  resistance 
located  m  a  shunt  around  an  electro-magnet?  122 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  do;  a  constant  resistance. 

Counsel  for  Brush  here  introduces  in  evi¬ 
dence  copy  of  Letters  Patent  No.  33,209, 
granted  to  J.  E.  Smith,  September  10th,  1809^ 
and  designates  it  as  “Brash  Exhibit  No.  3.”  ’ 
x-Q.  74.  For  what  purpose  was  the  invention  in 
patent  100,403  used  by  the  Automatic  Telegraph 

A.  It  was  used  in  the  manner  stated  in  the  pat-  123 
ent  and  also  for  the  purpose  of  preventing  induced 
currents  on  the  magnets  from  circulating  on  the 
line.  These  magnets  were  either  sounders  or  had 
a  local  circuit  connected  with  them  or  acted  as  re¬ 

x-Q.  75.. These  instruments  were  all  taken  out, 
were  they  not,  because  they  were  held  to  infringe  the 
Page  patent,  and  instruments  invented  by  Gerritt 
.  Smith  substituted  for  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  Gerritt  Smith  had  no  connection  with  124 
the  Automatic  Telegraph  Company  until  after  1876 
or  ’77. 

x-Q.  70.  Do  you  know  that  one  of  these  instru¬ 
ments  is  now  in  use  by  the  Automatic  Company  1 
A.  No,  sir;  I  know  nothing  about  it. 
x-Q.  77.  Do  you  know  that  these  instruments 
have  not  all  been  replaced  by  instruments  of  a .  dif¬ 
ferent  construction  and  principle  of  operation  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not  been  in  an  Automatic 

Thomas  A.  Edis 

125  Company’s  office  since  1870;  neither  do  I  know 
n2ntsChanKeS  they  a,e  mak'ng  in  their  instru' 
x-Q.  78.  Please  compare  the  invention  disclosed 
m  patent  100,405  with  the  invention  set  forth  in 
your  application  in  interference  ;  are  they  substan¬ 
tially  the  same,  or  substantially  different? 

A.  They  are  alike  in  respect  to  regulating  the 
strength  of  a  plain  electro-magnet,  but  they  differ 
10S  "t  thilit,ln  tho  application  in  interference,  the 
120  strength  of  the  current  passing  through  the  electro¬ 
magnet  is  increased  or  diminished  by  adding  to  or 
taking  from  the  circuit  resistance,  while  in  the  pat¬ 
ent  100,405,  the  strength  of  the  magnet  is  varied  by 
shunting  a  portion  of  the  current  by  means  of  a 
variable  resistance  placed  around  and  acting  as  a 
shunt  to  the  current  passing  through  the  electro¬ 

x  Q  79.  Having  described  certain  differences,  I 
now  desire  your  opinion  as  to  whether  or  not  the 
127  invention  shown,  described  and  claimed  in  your 

patent  100,405  is  substantially  the  same  as,  or  sub¬ 
stantially  different  from  the  invention  shown,  des- 
ence  ?  ^  °  a'me<1  in  your  application  in  interfer- 
A.  The  objects  to  be  attained  in  both  cases  are 

vlt^merirriI-y;  aS  t0  whether  1  have  an  opinion 
whether  the  two  inventions  are  the  same  or  differ 
en  ,1  will  state  that  I  have  no  opinion.  The  point 
is  too  complicated  to  give  one  off-hand. 

x-Q.  SO.  As  you  seem  to  have  no  difficulty  in  your 
answer  to  question  No.  7  in  comparing  the  inven 
m  l’fent  WO, 4I»B  with  the  Brush  patent 
m  interference  I  now  ask  that  you  will  make  a  like 
comparison  between  two  of  your  own  cases  to  wit- 
patent  100,405  and  your  application  in  interfer- 

tfohS*  • S  n0teth6  Slight0st  diffic“%  m  regard  to 
the  comparison  of  patent  160,405  with  the  Brush 

an?op’e“ntUea!  b°th  are  C0M^ted,  airanged 
ana  operated  in  the  same  manner,  but  a  comnarisnn 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

between  patent  100,405  and  my  application  in  inter-  l->9 
ference  is  much  more  difficult  for  the  reason  that 
the  devices  are  applied  in  a  different  manner. 

x-Q.  81.  Then  you  would  have  it  understood, 
would  you,  that  you  have  no  opinion  with  reference 
to  the  matter  enquired  of  in  cross-question  79? 

^A.  I  believe  I  have  fully  answered  cross-question 

x-Q.  S2.  As  the  matters  of  construction  differ 
quite  radically,  among  such  obvious  differences  the 
patent  shows  a  single  electro-magnet,  and  the  appli-  130 
cation  a  batteiy  of  dynamo  electric  machines,  I  do 
not  desire  you  to  enter  into  a  detailed  description  of 
such  differences,  but  ask  your  opinion  upon  this 
matter,  to' wit:  whether  ornot  in  your  opinion  the  in¬ 
vention  shown,  described  and  claimed  in  your  patent 

100.405  is  substantially  the  same  as  or  substantially 
different  from  the  invention  shown,  described  and 
claimed  in  your  application  in  interference? 

Counsel  for  Edison  states  that  inasmuch 
as  the  application  of  Edison  referred  to  in  the  131 
foregoing  question  embracesinventions  which 
are  not  included  in  this  interference  he  ob¬ 
jects  to  so  much  of  the  question  as  relates  to 
the  invention  described  in  such  application, 
and  advises  Mr.  Edison  to  confine  his  answer 
to  the  issues  in  controversy  as  set  up  by  the 
Patent  Office. 

A.  I  have  fully  answered  on  this  point. 
x-Q.  S3.  As  there  is  a  difference  of  opinion  on  ,o., 
this  matter,  I  will  restate  the  question  in 
a  slightly  changed  form.  I  desire  to 

know  whether  in  your  opinion,  the  invention 
shown,  described,  and  claimed  in  your  patent 

160.405  is  substantially  the  same  as,  or  substantially 
different  from  the  invention  shown  and  described 
and  particularly  referred  to  in  the  second  and  third 
clauses  of  the  claims  of  your  application  in  inter¬ 

A.  I  have  already  stated  the  differences  between 

the  inventions  in  patent  100,405  and  my  application 
m  interference,  and  I  have  no  opinion  whether  they 
are  substantially  the  same  or  not.  Both  refer  to 
the  same  object  in  a  different  manner.  If  the  vari¬ 
ation  in  the  strength  of  the  magnets  were  to  he 
produced  by  combining  a  shunt  around  them,  as 
shown  in  my  patent  100,405  and  the  patent  of  Mr. 
Brush,  there  would  not  bo  the  same  economy  in  the 
use  of  the  electric  current,  as  there  would  be  when 
the  variation  in  the  strength  of  the  magnet  was 
made  in  the  manner  set  forth  in  my  application  in 
interference.  If  the  device  shown  in  patent 
100,405  and  in  the  Brush  patent  in  controversy  was 
applied  to  the  electro  magnets  arranged  and  oper¬ 
ated  m  the  nianneu  set  forth  in  my  application  in 
controversy,  considerably  more  power  would  be 
wasted  than  if  arranged  in  the  manner  set  forth  in 
my  said  application  in  controversy,  and  I  have  the 
impression  of  reading  somewhere  that  any  combi¬ 
nation  which  effects  a  saving  over  that  already  in 
use  is  patentable  and  constitutes  an  invention, 
therefore  this  point  being  so  abstruse  I  have  not 
allowed  my  mind  to  form  an  opinion.  Besides  the 
patents  in  controverey  are  the  best  source  of  infor¬ 

All  that  portion  of  the  answer  after  the 
words,  14 1  have  no  opinion  whether  they  are 
substantially  the  same  or  not,”  objected  to 
as  irresponsive  to  the  question. 
x-Q.  84.  Do  you  find  it  anywhere  indicated  in 
your  patent  147,917  that  the  resistance  there  em- 
ployed  is  an  adjustable  resistance. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  word  “rheostat”  is  sufficient 
evidence  as  to  the  adjustability  of  the  resistance. 

x  Q.  85.  And  where  this  word  is  employed  in 
other  patents  besides  your  own,  it  would  be  suffi¬ 
cient  evidence  of  the  fact  of  an  adjustable  resist¬ 
ance,  would  it  not. 

A.  It  would,  in  the  absence  of  any  drawings 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

showing  that  the  device  was  wrongly  named  a 

x-Q.  SO.  In  your  opinion  is  the  invention  shown, 
described  and  claimed  in  your  Patent  147,917,  sub¬ 
stantially  the  same  as  or  substantially  different  from 
the  invention  shown  and  particularly  referred  to  in 
the  second  and  third  clauses  of  the  claims  of  your 
application  in  interference? 

A.  It  is  true  that  there  is  a  rheostat  for  adjusting 
the  strength  of  a  current  passing  through  a  magnet, 
but  being  a  mixed-up  combination,  like  the  patents 
put  in  by  counsel  for  Brush,  I  have  no  opinion  upon 
the  subject,  except  insomuch  as  a  rheostat  regulates 
the  strength  of  an  electro  magnet. 

x-Q.  S7.  Please  state  how  many  dynamo  electric 
machines,  constructed  in  accordance  with  your 
patent  219,393,  are  now  in  use? 

A.  I  made  one  complete  machine  and  operated 
the  same.  It  worked  successfully.  My  impression 
is  I  have  the  machine  still.  None  have  been  put  in 
use,  for  the  reason  that  I  have  something  better. 

x-Q.  SS.  Does  this  patent  show  an  adjustable 
resistance  for  regulating  the  strength  of  the  field  of 
force  magnets? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  describes,  in  connection  with  what 
it  shows,  a  method  of  increasing  or  diminishing  the 
current  by  adding  resistance.  The  rotating  con¬ 
tact  cylinder  theoretically  should  shunt  the  same 
amount  of  current  away  from  the  field  magnets  in 
a  given  time,  whether  rotated  at  twenty-five  revo¬ 
lutions  a  minute  or  five  hundred  revolutions  a  min¬ 
ute.  But  practically  less  current  is  shunted  from 
the  field  magnets  as  the  speed  of  revolution  of  the 
contact  cylinder  increases,  the  resistance  of  contacts 
being  a  function  of  surface  velocity  and  pressure. 
It  is  not  a  wire  resistance,  but  nevertheless  is  a 
resistance  variable  by  speed. 

x-Q,  S9.  Please  quote  any  portion  of  the  specifi¬ 
cation  indicating  that  the  revolving  contact  cylinder 
in  the  shunt  around  the  field  of  force  magnets  was 

tl  intended  or  is  constructed  to  operate  as  a  variable 

A.  I  And  the  following:  “  I  have  discovered  that 
an  increased  magnetic  effect  is  produced  in  the  field 
of  force  magnets  by  periodically  shunting  the  cur- 
rent.”  Also  the  following:  “The  energy  of  the 
machine  is  promoted  by  shunting  the  field  of  force 
magnets,  and  this  I  do  every  revolution  of  the  shaft 
n,  but  it  may  be  done  more  or  less  frequently.” 

0  %  consent,  the  taking  of  further  testimony  was 

postponed  to  Wednesday,  October  19th,  1881,  at  10 
o’clock,  at  same  place. 

W.m.  H.  Mkadowckoft, 
Notary  Public, 

N.  Y.  Co.  ' 

Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  taking  of  testimony 
was  continued  on  Wednesday,  October  19th,  1SS1, 
,  the  same  parties  being  present. 

x-Q.  90.  In  your  opinion  is  the  invention  shown 
and  described  in  Letters  Patent  219,393,  substan¬ 
tially  the  same  as  or  substantially  different  from  the 
invention  shown,  described  and  referred  to  in  the 
second  and  third  clauses  of  the  claim  of  vour  appli¬ 
cation  in  interference! 

A.  I  will  not  answer  that  question  unless  the 
meaning  of  the  word  “  substantially  ”  is  defined  by 
the  counsel  for  Brush. 

144  X'Q;  yl-  I£  y°u  are  unable  to  comprehend  the 
meaning  of  the  word  “substantially,”  I  will  cheer¬ 
fully  re-state  the  question.  In  your  opinion  is  the 
invention  shown  and  described  in  patent  219,393, 
sulstantiallj  tho  same  in  construction,  adapted  to 
operate  in  substantially  the  same  manner  and  pro¬ 
duce  substantially  the  same  result  as  the  invention 
shown  and  described  and  pointed  out  in  the  second 
and  third  claims  of  your  application  in  interfer¬ 

A  I  object  to  answering  any  question  where  this 
word  substantially  ”  is  used  in  a  general  sense. 

A.  Edison. 

x-Q  92.  As  it  is  customary  for  counsel,  rather  145 
than  the  witnesses,  to  interpose  objections,  I  would 
suggest  that  that  part  of  these  proceedings  be  left  to 
your  counsel.  Do  you  or  do  you  not  understand 
the  question? 

Counsel  for  Edison  states  that  the  witness 
is  willing  to  describe  the  construction,  man¬ 
ner  of  operation,  purpose  and  effect  of  any 
apparatus  properly  in  question,  but  believes 
that  a  comparison  of  substantial  identity  is 
a  matter  for  the  construction  of  the  proper  146 
officials  of  the  Patent  Office  alone. 

.A.  I  understand  imperfectly  the  question,  and 
will  not  answer  it  without  the  question  is  made 
more  specific. 

x-Q.  93.  I  will  then  use  the  specific  language  em¬ 
ployed  in  direct  question  No.  7,  comparing  said 
patent  219,393  with  your  application  in  interference. 
What  essential  difference  is  there,  if  any,  in  the  two 
inventions  ? 

A.  I  have  already  answered  fully  on  the  question, 
by  describing  the  operation  of  the  patent  in 
question,  and,  I  believe,  pointing  out  the  difference. 

x  Q.  94.  Prior  to  1S7S  was  it  old  to  excite  the 
the  field  of  force  magnets  of  a  dynamo  machine  by 
a  separate  dynamo  machine? 

A.  I  can’t  say. 

x-Q.  95.  Please  give  us  your  best  impressions 
whether  or  not  it  was  old  prior  to  1S78,  to  excite  the 
•  field  of  force  magnets  of  a  dynamo  machine  by  a  44s 
separate  dynamo  or  magneto  machine? 

A.  I  cannot  remember  any  instance  by  publica¬ 

x-Q.  96.  You  are  willing  to  swear  then,  are  you, 
that  you  know  of  no  patent  or  publication  prior  to 
1878,  describing  a  dynamo  machine  having  its  field 
of  force  magnets  excited  by  a  dynamo  or  magneto 

A.  I  call  none  to  memory  that  was  published. 
x-Q.  97.  Do  you  consider  the  vibrating  reed  in- 

Thomas  A.  Ellison. 

149  sfcrument  shown  and  described  in  patent  ISO, 330 
practically  the  same  as  a  dynamo  machine? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  is  a  magneto  electric  machine.  In 
my  patont  218,100  it  is  arranged  as  a  dynamo  ma 

x-Q.  9S.  When  did  you  first  construct  a  dynamo 
electric  machine. 

A.  I  am  unable  to  answer  that  question  until  I 
have  looked  over  my  sketches  and  drawings. 

150  .  Cou!lsel  for  Bmsh  desires  that  the  witness 
investigate  his  papers  or  records,  and  if  pos¬ 
sible,  ascertain  the  facts  inquired  of,  that  ho 
may  be  able  at  another  time  to  answer  this 

x-Q.  09.  Describe  in  general  terms  the  construe- 
tion  or  type  of  the  first  dynamo  electric  machine 
you  made  or  had  made  for  you. 

A.  I  have  already  stated  that,  without  looking 
over  my  drawings,  I  could  not  give  the  date  of  my 

151  first  dynamo  electric  machines.  I  built  magneto 
machines  in  Boston  in  1809,  hut  whether  I  built  dy¬ 
namo  machines  I  can’t  remember  without  refresh¬ 
ing  my  memory  by  looking  at  drawings. 

x-O.  100.  Question  repeated. 

A.  I  have  in  my  mind  that  I  constructed  a  certain 
dynamo  machine  about  a  certain  time.  Whether 
this  was  the  first  one  over  constructed  by  me,  I 
cannot  say  without  refreshing  my  memory  by  look¬ 
ing  at  my  drawing.  And  as  the  one  I  have  in  my 

152  mind  may  not  be  the  first  one,  I  cannot  describe  it.  • 

My  impression  is  that  the  first  dynamo  electric  ma¬ 
chine  which  I  constructed,  in  the  absence  of  my  pa¬ 
pers  to  refresh  my  memory,  is  shown  in  patent  21S,- 
1C0.  *  ’ 

x-Q.  101.  When,  where  and  by  whom  was 
the  dynamo  machine  like  patent  218,100  con¬ 
structed  1 

A.  It  was  made  at  Menlo  Park  by  my  workmen, 

I  think  some  time  in  September,  1S78. 

l.  Edis 

used?  102  When  aad  f°r  What  purpose  was  it;  first  153 
A.  I  think  it  was  used  in  October  or  November, 

187S,  for  generating  electric  currents. 

x-Q.  103.  For  what  purpose  was  the  electric  cur¬ 
rent  generated  by  this  machine  employed  ? 

A.  I  think  the  first  purpose  we  used  the  current 
for  was  for  agitating  the  nerves  of  the  tongue. 

x-Q.  104.  You  may  recite  the  schedule  of  uses  to 
which  it  was  put  if  you  desire,  or  state  simply  the 
practical  purposes  to  which  the  current  generated  154 
by  this  machine  was  put,  as  the  latter  is  all  that  I 
want  to  know  ? 

A.  The  current  was  used  in  one  case  to  excite 
heat  in  metallic  wire,  that  is  to  say  to  heat  up  a 
portion  of  the  circuit,  which  was  the  practical  ob- 
ject  to  be  attained. 

lighU  10°"  ^aS  USed  ^°r  proi*u“nK  electric 
ing~  Xt  WaS  US<jd  ^  conneotion  with  electric  light- 

x-Q.  100.  Was  it  used  as  the  generator  of  the  ^ 
mam  current  to  produce  an  electric  light  ? 

A.  It  was  used  as  a  generator  of  current  for  the 
purpose  of  producing  an  electric  light. 

x-Q.  107.  Were  the  ends  of  the  circuit  containing 
the  electric  liglit-one  or  more-directly  connected 
with  the  machine  in  question  when  it  was  used  as 
you  state  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  108.  For  what  length  of  time  was  this  ma-  156 
chine  thus  used  ? 

A.  Only  a  few  minutes  ;  the  current  was  to 
weak  to  produce  the  results  desired. 
x-Q.  109.  When  did  you  altogether  discard  the 
-  use  of  this  machine  ? 

A.  I  laid  it  aside  to  adopt  a  better  form. 
x-Q.  110.  When  did  you  lay  it  aside  ? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  I  laid  it  aside  sometime 
in  December,  ’78. 

157  x-Q.  111.  Please  state  when  you  next  made  a 
dynamo  machine  ? 

A.  I  desire  to  state  that  I  do  not  understand  that 
the  question  in  interference  related  to  the  original 
construction  of  the  dynamo  machine ;  my  impres¬ 
sion  was  that  the  subject  matter  in  interferrence 
was  comfined  to  the  combination  as  set  forth  in  the 
Patent  Office  declaration,  and  hence  did  not 
look  for  data  by  which  to  set  the  date  of  the  con¬ 
struction  of  this  or  that  form  of  dynamo  machine. 

158  I  cannot  answer  without  refreshing  my  memory  by 
looking  at  my  drawings. 

Counsel  for  Brush  requests  that  the  wit¬ 
ness  will  investigate  his  records  during  ad¬ 
journment,  that  he  may  be  able  to  give  ac¬ 
curate  information  as  to  the  points  inquired 

x-Q.  112.  For  present  purposes,  state  the  date  as 
near  as  you  can  when  you  made  your  second 
15g  dynamo  machine '( 

A.  I  think  the  next  dynamo  machine  was  con¬ 
structed  in  either  January  or  February,  1S70. 

x-Q.  113.  Like  which  one  of  your  patents  was 
this  second  machine! 

A.  It  was  similar  to  patent  222, SSI.  If  I  remem¬ 
ber  right,  there  were  three  different  machines  con¬ 
structed  about  the  same  time,  besides  a  great  many 
small  machines,  some  being  used  as  dynamo  and 
magneto ;  one  machine  was  sent  on  the  “  Herald  ” 
160  Arcfo  expedition,  connected  and  worked  as  a 
dynamo  with  arc  lights,  it  being  delivered  some  two 
or  three  months  before  the  sailing  of  the  “Jean- 
Df  *1870  WhiCl’’ 1  th'nk’  WaS  in  thesP1,hl6  or  summer 

x-Q.  114.  When  and  for  what  purpose  was  the 
second  dynamo  machine  of  your  construction  and 
used  by  you,  first  employed  ? 

A  I  don’t  remember  of  having  used  the  machines 
as  dynamos  except  as  an  experiment.  We  used 
them  as  magnetos,  in  connection  with  lighting. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 


The  time  when  we  used  them  was  some  time  in  the 
sprmg  of  1879  The  nature  of  the  lights  was  such 
mnl  f  c°uld.not  «se  dynamo  machines  but  only 
magneto  electric  machines,  with  an  electro  magnet 
for  making  the  field. 

,nX'Q-.!15:  ,Ho'v  IonS  did  this  state  of  things  con¬ 
tinue,  that  is,  up  to  what  time  were  your  lights  of 


A  When  I  say  that  I  could  not  emplov  dvnamo 
machines,  I  mean  that  class  of  dvnamo'macl.hies 

„ ; 

the  field  of  force  magnets,  and  up  to  the  present 
ime  my  lights  are  of  such  a  nature  that  I 
cannot  use  machines  with  a  great  degree  of  practi- 
*7  °  ‘he  Whole  of  the  current  Eses 

thiough  the  exciting  field  of  force  magnets,  but  I 
have  used  dynamo  machines  where  the  whole  of 
the  current  passing  through  the  field  of  force  ma-- 
nets  was  used,  not  to  work  lights,  but  to  ener^e 
ownfield  °ther  m°Rnet0  machines  as  well  as  its 

V!-  ,At  I)reseilt  T  desire  information  with 
onW  End  Elamo  ^chines  of  your  construction 
only,  and  hence  please  state  when  and  for  what 

andPusSeedl  le  SeC°nd  »ynamo  machine  constructed 
and  used  by  you  was  first  employed  ? 

th6Se  8uestions  with  any 
gieat  degree  of  accuracy  without  consulting  mv 
drawings  to  refresh  my  memory,  for  the  reEns  I 
have  previously  given.  s  I 

x-Q.  U7.  Please  state  as  near  as  you  can  how 
many  dynamo  machines  of  your  construction  were 
used  by  you  for  electric  lighting  or  other  purposes 
throughout  the  year  1S79  ?  1  s 

A  I  shall  have  to  consult  my  drawings  to  re- 
fresh  ray  memory. 

Counsel  for  Brush  here  states  that  under 
the  circumstances  he  is  now  obliged  to  dis¬ 
continue  his  cross-examination  with  reference 
to  tile  subject  matter  in  hand,  but  wall  re- 

4‘!  Thomas  A.  Edison. 


you?  1I9‘  H°W  lone  was  machine  used  by 

up'.S'T  00t°ber- 

time.  There  were  ,„!*?,  to  ^ ie  Present 

one  a  small  one  and  one  ^  i  machi,les’ 

"'as  purchased0  TThink’  the" hi-g'"'*  ^'^one 

ed  some  time  in  Novembe o °"e,"'aS  pureh“- 
is  the  large  one  that  I  still  In -e ,7  1§5  B 

street  shop.  a  e  now  mY  Goerck 

th° ia,ge  °ne  usedi 

1Si9,V2ell?C^  ^Sti^g  purpose  “I1U0USlr  thl0uSh 
chines  ’  SU';  "0t  C°ntinU0US'>’-  I  had  other  nm- 

°r  Ve'y  ^ 

1GS  iy  in  January  mid 'February  'is ^'2  C0Iltinuous- 

occasionally.  %  after  that  only 

smaU ^icTmchSfi^VuS  Pm'P°Se  Was  the 

pressiJnS i't’was  senUaS“  ^ (f*  ““ im' 
spnng  of  18T9.  k  to  J1‘  ■  Wallace  in  the 

X'Q-  12S-  DurinS  1S78  or  1870,  did 

you  use  any 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

other  construction  of  dynamo  machines,  except  169 
your  own  and  the  Wallace  machines  referred  to? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  used  the  Weston  nickel-plating  ma- 
chine  and  a  Gramme  machine. 

x-Q.  120.  When  and  for  what  purpose  did  you 
first  use  the  Weston  machine? 

A  My  impression  is,  in  the  absence  of  my  data, 
that  I  bought  a  Weston  plating  machine  in  Septem¬ 
ber  or  October,  1S78,  for  experimental  purposes  in 
connection  with  electric  lighting. 

x-Q.  127.  Did  you  employ  the  Weston  machine  170 
foi  producing  the  electric  light;  and,  if  so,  how  long 
"as  thus  employed  by  jtou? 

A.  At  times  we  used  it  in  experimenting  on  in¬ 
candescence  of  metallic  wires  to  determine  certain 
phenomcua  and  laws  connected  therewith.  This 
machine  was  only  used  experimentally,  it  not  being 
suitable  for  practical  lighting.  b 

x-Q.  128.  When  and  for  what  purpose  did  you  first 
employ  the  Gramme  machine? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  I  obtained  the  Gramme  171 
machine  in  March  or  April,  1879,  employing  it  for 
elec. ti ic  lighting  at  first,  and  afterwards  for  cliarg- 
ln?  ne,fi“kl"”01'Ce  raagnets  of  my  own  machines. 

x-Q.  1-9.  W  hen  did  you  first  use  it  for  the  pur¬ 
pose  last  stated  ? 

A.  About  March  or  April,  1S79. 
x-Q.  130.  I  now  hand  you  the  “Scribner’s  Month¬ 
ly  for  February,  18S0,  and  desire  to  know  if  the 
statement  attributed  to  you  on  page  331  was  made 
by  you  ?  m 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  made  that  statement  to  which  my 
name  is  appended,  but  I  desire  to  state  that  this 
article  was  written  for  popular  use  and  is  only  gen¬ 
erally  correct. 

x-Q.  131.  About  how  long  prior  to  February,  1SS0, 
the  date  of  this  magazine,  was  this  article  written 
by  Mr.  Upton,  and  your  statement  made  ? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  the  article  had  to  be  pre- 
pared  and  delivered  three  months  prior  to  publi¬ 

"  Thomas  A.  Edison, 

written  'was* Mr  Upton  tbis  article  was 

.  .  'vas  employed  by  me. 

and  in  wlmt  capacity5? ,Wd  1,0  be°n  111  your  employ 

as  a  mathematician.  ’  Uc  "as  employed 

™  o«TSl  SLB™"4r,  <»  ovi. 

and  designate  the  ^  bn°‘‘s  referred  to 
Sc  ribner ^liSgLine  ”  °  BrU8h  ExbiK 

December  20,  1S79,  to°  winch  }'°Uli  cnveat  siK»ed 
you  direct  examination?  3°U  I,ave  referred  in 
A.  I  don’t  remember. 

record's  ?  ^  3°U  nscortaiu  the  fact  from  your 

.  ort  EPSSC°Uld-  “  «"  W.  Serrell 

«<«?».*  itS'  *  W  .vWcl,  „„„ 

means  of  refreshing  Voir  nl  Ca';eat-  and  as  a 
tmn  to  the  names  of  the  wi  !  3'^11  your  “‘ten- 

Z.  F.  Wilber  ?  16  "  ltnessus>  S.  L.  Griffin  and 

an  impressfon'thLf  ”le,nory.  as  I  have 

with  my  cases  until  the  flret  0f  T  'ad  nothinff  to  do 
re  x-Q.  137.  Are  you  confide!/  «  January,  1880. 
Prepared  this  caveat?  ™  4  then>  t,lat  Mr.  Serrell 
V0’  sil‘>  1  am  not 

^0N°J  ^r;  lam  not. 

*Til dUty  atthe 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

tint  period  of  this  examination  whether  this  caveat 
was  prepared  by  Mr.  Wilber  or  Mr.  Serrell » 

A.  I  will  endeavor  to  do  so. 
x-Q  Hi.  Please  compare  the  invention  shown 
described  and  referred  to  in  the  first  nn,i  .  I 
claims  of  the  Brusli  Patent  224,511,  and  the  inven 
ti°n  show“  and  described,  and  pointed  out  in  the 
™:^nd  t"ird  ClaimS  °f  yom'  ^cation  in  hife 


x-Q.  142.  One  difference  between  the  two  inven- 

sist'fnrp  * '+*?  t0  -’S  t.hat  y°u  employ  a  variable  re¬ 

sistance  in  the  circuit  including  the  field  of  force 
magnets,  while  Brush  employs  a  variable  resistance 
in  a  shunt  circuit  including  the  field  of  force  mag¬ 
nets.  Is  not  this  correct?  h 

A.  No,  sir;  the  field  of  force  magnets  are  not  in 
a  circuit  m  the  Brush  patent.  They  are  in  a 

irSslsnXShUnted’  "  "  ^  S6t  f°rth 

fe™n'»Un  T°U  m  COlTect;  butis,,ot  this  one  dif¬ 
ference,  that  you  employ  a  variable  resistance  in 
ttie  circmt  including  the  field  of  force  magnets, 
"hl]!  .Brusb  ®lnl)loys  a  variable  resistance  in  a 
shunt  around  the  field  of  force  magnets? 

A.  If  this  comparison  is  made  between  my  armli- 
cation  in  interference  and  Mr.  Brush’s  patent  also 
m  interference,  it  is  correct  to  say,  that  I  employ  a 
variable  resistance  in  the  circuit  containing  the  field 
of  force  magnets,  and  that  Mr.  Brush  emplovs  a 
shunt  containing  a  variable  resistance,  placed  around 
the  field  of  force  magnets  in  the  main  circuit,  both 
being  very  fully  set  forth  in  the  application  in  ques¬ 
tion  and  the  patent  of  Mr.  Brush.'  q 

x-Q.  144.  Also  does  not  this  difference  in  opera¬ 
tion  exist:  In  your  application  in  interference  the 
greater  the  resistance  the  weaker  will  be  the  field 
of  force  magnets,  while  in  the  patent  of  Brush  the 
gi^ater  the  resistance  in  the  shunt,  the  stronger 
"  iH  lie  the  field  of  force  magnets. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

181  Jt&ssz^'ssr"*;* 

of  th.  «»l,f  m™,|?  of  ‘la 

»«■  •t'.nah  of  it, '  o“™' "'''or*' 

1S2  Iwfcronce^hor^T'o1^"  ^  “PPWcIitlonT  faf 
°i'  adapted  to  bo  placed  InThe^  tb°  mn,n  c,lcmt 
provided  with  a  Sbli  ■  1  ”  c  lc  ut  I'chis 
strength  of  its  own  fiehUf  i“lhtanco>  "'hereby  the 
regulated.  Is  this  true?  ^  "Ws  ma-v  h° 

the  strength  of*  wC  own^mo/f^  '  n  “  ci,'cuit- 
regulated  bv  a  resistance  ni,  i  -f  f°rco  magnets  is 
the  machine  or  machines  L  » ‘  .tl10  cil'CUI't,  hut 

worked  as  dynamo  nnd  ine  !°  T1"  line  ««'  not 
183  trie  machines.  ‘  ’  mt  as  magneto-elec- 

^nyoVarolStton“n^nte5K,,,,{,u,  you  do  not 

machine  in  the  main  line  "0  sho'v  a  '^amo 

hut  I  mention  the'useof’  Ijoth  dy,f  subsidiary  line, 
machines.  0tb  «ynamo  and  magneto 

the  construction  o°thov“hblo°  “  description  of 

mg  the  pms  together  by  a  wire  V  i  b>"  Connect- 
net  spools  ranged  so  as  t  A  1  also  used  mag- 

Also  a  cylinder  round  whfch  wfr  0P°  °'' ,6SS  cut 

Piece  sliding  over  the  face  to  r  t  "as  C0lled>  and  a 
ance  out.  tace  to  cut  more  or  less  resist- 

*'Q-  In  your  answer  to  question  io,  direct, 

L  Edison. 

therein’  '  \  1<>  "  bat  particular  machine  do  you 

therein  mean  to  refer!  J 

A.  The  instrument  referred  to  as  having  been 
Sn  mJ  ;abratWy’  and  -  ^e  lines  'of  the  Wes 
tcin  Union  Telegraph  Company  is  the  one  shown 
mmypatentis.i,:!30;  when  I  referred  to  its  use  in 

ss,]"  „ 

x-Q  149.  In  answer  to  question  IS,  you  sneak  of 

onetuha:  T',at0r  ™deia  ls‘»-  I«  that  the 
e  3  ou  ha\  e  ahead}-  put  in  evidence? 

A.  Yes. 

nrtn^nT0-  D°y0U  k,1°"'  °f  any  publication  made 
of  the  haUUrT’  c°’  a  detailed  description 
von!  ™  6?101'  1'.efeiTed  toiu  claims  2  and  3  of 
youi  application  m  interference.  I  mean  a  descrin 
tion  of  your  invention?  a  uescnp. 

A.  I  have  not  my  scrap  book  by  me  to  refresh  W 
my  memory,  but  find  in  a  British  patent  which  J 
haie  here  by  me,  dated  June,  1879,  where  the  field 
of  foice  magnets  were  energized  by  a  separate  cir. 
cu.t  p. o.i Jed  with  appliances  for  regulating  the 
£fh  of  tbe  <;ul'rent. passing  through  the  field  of 
f“Cn  ™agn^s-  n  18  No-  2,402  of  June  17th,  ISTa 
'  l0l‘  J.0U  cons,del'  that  a  detailed  description 
of  the  invention,  do  you?  p 

ference.  *  “  “  the  first  COUUt  in  the  inter-  188 

x-Q.  152.  In  your  opinion  would  an  extra  dyna- 
filnTfllne  adapt6d  t0  reKuiate  the  strength  of  the 
field  of  force  magnets  of  another  dynamo  or  mag¬ 
neto  machine  by  varying  the  speed  of  such  extra 

set 1nrMe’-be+iPra( 3  iy  the  Sa“e  38  your  mventiou, 
set  forth  in  the  second  and  third  claims  of  your  an 
plication  in  interference? 

t,i\Tber,1^faraS  regards  the  regulation  of 
the  strength  of  the  current  passing  through  the 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

189  'S °f  th°  ,,mKnet0  nmchhie  would 

form  an  opinion.  allo"  wl  »U*solf  to 

c..LQ',;f«1‘sro?5i™"o!,r-  amr 

the  variable  adjustment  of  the  cores 
force  magnets  he  practically  the same  as  L  *  ? 

190  SpESf  “  the  «»d  third  claims  of  your 

O>0  s^rongth^a  miimlt  ^ t“|“.,llv?"tion  to  regulate 

“* to  to.  l..H;2SXiS',“t 

Same  objection  as  before. 

means  propm-lnd'adeolfatG^11110  fthe  inventio»  of 
ment.  adequate  to  perform  the  adjust- 

19"  emP% the «ab£ri*S/”a in •erfTnco you 

compmhended  by  these  Ss^  'C<!S’  V,!at  is 

elechac  lamp^forTranslaUnff  f  el.e?tro-motors  or 
or  power.  slating  electricity  into  light 

ance  located  in°  a  °tireuit  c'°r  “•  VariabI°  «®ist- 
machine  and  an  dS)  nhr  a  dyna”110 

“»  »«» -to.  .iSfeuICrte  £ 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

assi?“d*ta-  °f  y°ur  i93 

Counsel  for  Edison  objects  to  the  question 
as  new  matter  not  brought  out  in  the  exam- 
mation-m-chief  of  the  witness. 

,„A;  1  “"’t  ffive  a«y  opinion,  because  I  don’t  un- 
dei  stand  the  question. 

x-Q.  150.  In  your  opinion  would  a  dynamo  ma- 
chme  located  in  a  circuit  containing  an  electro-plat- 
mg  apparatus,  said  dynamo  provided  with  a  vari 
ab  e  resistance  for  regulating  the  strength  of  its  1Bi 
field  of  force  magnets  be  practically  the  same  as  the 
invention  referred  to  in  the  second  and  third  claims 
of  your  application  in  interference? 

Same  objection  as  before. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  consent  the  taking  of  further  testimony  was 
postponed  to  Tuesday  November  8th.  iSSlfatlO 
o  clock  A.  M.,  at  same  place.  195 

Wm.  H.  Meadowcroft, 

Notary  Public, 

N.  Y.  Co. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  taking  of  tea- 
timony  was  continued  on  Tuesday,  November 
8th,  1881,  at  10  o’clock  A.  M. 

mPre,lt-N;  gS'  5?ith’  in  pemon;  George  W. 
D'ER>  counsel  for  Edison;  and  H.  A.  Seymour,  of 
counsel  for  Brush. 

x-Q.  158.  Have  you  examined  your  records  and 
ascertained  when  you  first  constructed  a  dynamo- 
electnc  machine?  J 

have  not-  I  have  not  had  time. 
x-Q.  1j9.  Have  you  asce-itained  who  prepared  the 
TOt  of  December  26,  1S79,  and  witnessed  by  S  L 
Griffin  and  Z.  P.  Wilber?  J 

A.  I  am  told  by  Mr.  Wilber  that  it  was  not 

197  by  him  that  he  only  signed  it  as  a  witness.  Hence 
it  must  have  been  made  by  L.  AY.  Sorrell.  who  was 
at  that  date  my  solicitor. 

x-Q.  ICO.  Do  you  recall  to  mind,  or  have  you  as¬ 
certained  lioiv  it  came  about  that  Mr.  Wilber  eneair 

ed  m  the  Patent  Office  up  to  January,  1SS0,  wit.mss- 
ed  your  caveat  executed  December  SBth,  1S79,  and 
wlncb  was  prepared  by  .Air.  Hen-oil? 

A.  He  was  on  a  visit  to  Menlo  Park. 
x-Q.  101.  By  what  incident  do  vou  recall  the 
108  tl,at  5I.r'  Wilber  011  oraboutlhattime,  that  is  tosay 
some  tnnem  the  latter  part  of  1879,  suggested  lo 

J on  that  the  invention  disclosed  in  the  caveat  in 

»  VS 

particular  invention  at  the  time  stated"  * 

A.  Because  I  remember  it. 

nowenabled  to  testify  thu^posiUveb-  onthif^oi^ 

A  I  simply  remember  the  fact  pomt? 

given  to  vour affaire^uriri  ^  v*  IllS  Wllole  time  "'as 
her,  1879;or  that™:nnef?yun,bei-  and  Decern- 
to  your  interest,  and  tliem-,!”?..*1”18  "-as  dev°ted 

■mining  portion  to  his 

Thomas  A.  Edison.  51 

duties  in  the  Patent  Office,  of  which  he  was  an  offi-  ooi 

cer  during  the  time  specified? 

,  A\  A11  tbat  1  kno"' is  that  he  came  to  Menlo  Park 
at  different  times  in  the  last  two  months  of  1S79 
and  would  stay  two  or  three  days  at  a  time,  and 
then  go  to  &ew  York,  returning,  perhaps,  in  three 
or  four  days  afterward.  He  came  to  study  up  incan¬ 
descent  lighting,  so  as  to  fit  himself  to  be  attorney 
tonne,  having,  I  believe,  permission  from  the  Coin- 
niissioner  of  Patents. 

x-Q  100  Did  Mr.  Wilber  show  you  any  authority  292 
from  the  Commissioner  of  Patents  to  investigate 
your  inventions,  and  at  the  same  time  to  serve  asan 

officer  in  the  Patent  Office? 

A.  I  have  already  stated  that  Mr.  Wilber  came 
•there  to  study  electric  lighting, .with  a  view  of  be¬ 
coming  my  attorney.  I  did  not  see  any  permission  ' 
from  the  Commissioner  of  Patents. 

-x-Q.  107.  Did  you  or  did  Mr.  Wilber  himself  de¬ 
fray  the  expenses  incurred  in  his  numerous  trips 
from  Washington  to  Xew  York  during  November  203 
and  December,  1S79? 

A.  I  don’t  remember. 

x-Q  108  Please  give  us  your  best  impressions  in 
regard  to  this  matter  ? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  I  didn’t  pay  him  a  cent 
x-Q.  109.  Are  you  of  the  belief  that  Mr.  AVilher 
paid  these  expenses  ? 

A.  I  have  already  stated  that  I  don’t  remember 
x-Q.  170.  In  your  answer  to  question  9,  direct, 

5"°“  make  tbe  f°h°"’ing  statement :  “In  October,  291 
1S(S,  I  varied  the  strength  - of  the  field  of  force 
magnets  by  an  adjustable  resistance  which  was  in 
the  circuit  of  the  field  magnet  and  not  in  a  shunt 
around  the  same.”  I  desire  to  know  the  particular 
consti-uction  of  dynamo  machine  referred  to  in  this 
paragraph,  also  the  particular  construction  of  the 
adjustable  resistance  therein  referred  to. 

A.  The  machine  to  which  this  was  applied  is 

52  Thomas  A.  Edison. 

205  shown  in  my  patent  .SIS,  ICC.  The  resistances  which 
I  used  I  now  proceed  to  make  a  sketch  of 

.  “S£VS,^“i"'0,‘r 

tnmf !°  11c°,,sists  of  ;l  board  provided  witli  me- 
elecSyc^tS' with pins  'more  o’  ]"* 
o7herb^reanS°,tll!1in  ‘?rcuit  b7  twisting  S 
resents  the  same  n.ethod  h,  whidVspoolf  ™ roita  of 

each  wire  insulated  from  the  others,  and  by  means 

its  owf  finny  r  g?,  tlng  tllilfc  “Wtniment  to  make 
in  the  maiif  circuit  ^  Glided 

located  ’  “““  “X  °nc  described  by  you),  was 

r  r  -  - 

20S  explained,  was* if^dyln^  2“1,ROd  “  you  havo 
machine’  3  01  "1!>gneto  electric 


Counsel  for  Brush  states  that  the  question  is 
n  V10"'of  answers  to  cross  ques- 

tmns  108  to  no  inclusive,  and  cross-question 
<  ’  However,  if  he  is  in  error  he  has  no 
douht  as  to  the  ability  of  the  witness  to  cor¬ 
rect  him. 

tomKatini;:0"'  “» 

In7  n  1<41  You.  havo  state(1  that  you  altered  the 
machine  shown  in  patent  2lS,16fi:  this  change  con¬ 
sisting  in  placing  a  local  battery  and  a  variable  re- 
sistance  in  the  circuit  of  the  magnets  c  c\  Whv  was 
this  change  made?  ' 

A.  It  was  made  because  the  machine  did  not  make 
its  own  field  sufficiently  to  give  a  current  of  the  de- 
sired  strength. 

X-9:  ;,Tllun  1)uforo  this  change  was  made  the 

machine  did  not  operate  satisfactorily,  did  it’ 

A.  We  did  not  get  a  current  of  the  desired 

x-Q.  170.  And  you  made  this  change  in  order  that 
the  machine  should  operate  satisfactorily,  did  you 
not,  that  is,  give  the  desired  strength  of  cun-ent? 

A.  We  made  the  change  with  a  view  of  getting  a 
stronger  cun-ent.  We  got  a  stronger  cun-ent,  but 
it  was  not  of  the  desired  strength. 

x-Q.  177.  And  for  the  reason  last  given  was  not 
the  machine  discarded,  and  other  forms  used  bv  vou 
in  lieu  thereof.  "  ^ 

A.  The  machine  was  laid  aside  for  the  reason  that 
wo  had  great  trouble  with  our  steam  cylinders  and 
valves,  and  for  the  further  reason  that  we  thought 
we  could  make  a  better  machine.  i 

x-Q.  17S.  After  you  had  corrected  the  trouble 
with  reference  to  the  steam  valves,  etc.,  did  you 
ever  resume  the  use  of  this  machine  changed  as  you 
have  described?  J 

A.  I  did  not  say  that  wg  corrected  the  trouble 
with  the  steam  valves. 

x-Q.  170.  Did  you  correct  the  trouble  with  steam 
valves  that  you  referred  to,  or  are  you  now  bothered 
and  troubled  by  such  defective  devices’ 

213  ,  :V  Wu  "'ele  l,otheml  'O'  the  steam  Valves;  we  are 
bothereil  now  by  steam  valves. 

x-Q.  ISO.  Would  you  have  it  understood  that  the 
particular  machine  in  question  is  of  that  peculiarity 
that  it  cannot  be  operated  owing  to  defective  steam 
valves,  and  hence  was  laid  aside  for  that  reason 
while  other  forms  of  machines  are  not  affected  in 
this  pecuhar  manner,  and  hence  have  been  adopted 

The  machine  in  question  was  very  difficult  tn 

214  operate,  especially  the  valves,  as  the  amplitude  If 
the  leciprocatmg  parts  differed,  whereas  to  make  a 
valve  operate  properly,  the  mechanism  should  all 
have  pos,  ,ve  motions;  these  positive  motions  re  o 

215  answer  to  cross-question  10S ? 

toi"  ^nucstiou  m 

■Tl1!” >■«» 

lsti  1  thlnk  St  was  some  time  in  November, 
the  mtpnt  i AS  y°i'r  “WHcaUoi.  for  Patent  21S,l(l.i 

-  state,  made  in  November  istq  «»;n 
please  explain  why  you  failed  M  i-  i8*  1,1  yotl 

local  latte  a  f  *  1  0vidutl  with  the 

tuning  fotk6  S  ^ 1  t0  Patent  *  *■» 
claims  will  show,  and  I  putitTnthe 

Thomas  A.  Edison.  55 

and  in  my  patent  No.  222, SSI,  the  machine  is  shown  217 
as  a  dynamo  machine,  notwithstanding  that  I  dis¬ 
claim  the  use  of  it  as  a  dynamo  machine  in  the  spe- 
cification,  and  for  a  further  reason,  perhaps,  that  I 
didn  t  think  such  combination  patentable,  that  is  to 
say-  the  use  of  an  adjustable  resistance  with  the 
field  of  force  magnets  as  I  have  already  testified. 

-vy.  184.  In  answer  to  question  10,  direct  you 
speak  of  using  an  adjustable  resistance  with  a  Wal¬ 
lace  machine  in  October,  IS7S.  Please  describe  the 
construction  or  type  of  the  adjustable  resistance,  218 
chin  »S*a^  JUSt  I0W  lfc  was  connected  with  the  ma- 

A.  I  make  a  sketch  which  shows  the  Wallace  ma- 
clime.  there  are  two  commutators,  A  and  A';  the 
machine  being  a  duplex  machine.  F,  F  F  F  are 
the  field  magnets;  C  the  rotating  magnets,  ’in’ one 
case  one  side  of  the  machine  was  used  as  a  dynamo, 
m  the  circuit  of  which  were  the  field  magnets  of  the 
other  half  of  the  machine,  in  the  circuit  of  which 
was  placed  an  adjustable  resistance  It,  for  regulating  219 
the  strength  of  the  machine.  X,  X,  is  the  main 

In  figure  2,  the  commutators  of  both  machines 
were  connected  in  the  main  circuit.  The  fields  of 
both  machines  were  connected  in  another  circuit 
containing  an  adjustable  resistance  It,  which  circuit 
was  multiple  arcd  across  a  main  circuit,  X,  X. 

Sketch  referred  to  put  in  evidence  and 
marked. “  Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  9.” 

Batteries  were  also  inserted  in  a  local  circuit  en-  22° 
tirely  disconnected  from  the  line,  containing  a  vari¬ 
able  resistance,  for  energizing  the  field. 

x-Q.  1S5.  You  have  described  three  different  forms 

potions.  Please  state  which  one  was  first 

A.  The  one  with  the  battery.  I  think,  was  the 
first  used. 

used?  IS,!  WI,enwas  tlle  one  with  the  battery  first 

imciita™”  “  'm  ,'"-VS  “f1"'  1  601 
x-Q.  1ST.  How  long  was  it  used? 

1  ^member  the  length  of  time  it  v 
Poss,l,1-v'  d  «"« l>t  have  been  used  fn,. 

..  uio  next  lorm  used. 

'f  ■  How  long  was  it  used. 

222  i  a %  a«r  ,1:!-vs-  1  thi,,k-  «t  one  time. 

"  in  %ureTi  "  ^  Wn,t  "SC  the  fo'»>  diown 

wf  ‘  ™thin  a  few  days  after  that  in  figure  o 
J  lien  the  arrangement  shown  in  figure  2  was  used' 

«-<« . -  .o 

iite  }■»  itat  to 

member  in  October  or  November  iq-c  Tf  1  i 

rsf  «•» 

A.  The  machine  connected  and  operated  exactly 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

s^janujt*"  *• ammt  » 

fiehl  Of  fn’,‘  Wh0n  Wa®  ik  first  cllanged  so  that  the 
rate  dynanm  ?  ,naS,,°  s  «-rgiZed  by  a  sepa- 

A  1  think  it  was  in  February  or  March,  1ST0 
inat  is  my  impression. 

x-Q  jog.  Of  what  typo  or  construction  was  this 
separate  dynamo  ?  s 

A.  It  was  another  Wallace  machine, 
x  Q.  Mi.  Was  it  the  small  Wallace  machine  of  226 
Inch  you  have  testified  and  which  you  returned? 

_  ■  1  es>  that  is  my  impression. 
x-Q  ms.  In  answer  to  question  10  direct  you  refer 
to  the  lampsjou  were  experimenting  with  in  1S7S  If 
such  lamps  have  smeb  been  patented  will  you  please 
designate  the  patents,  showing  their  construction  ? 

A.  inese  lamps  are  shown  in  patents  214  036- 
22  <,  22  < ;  227,  22$;  and  227,  229.  5 

stmeHon  “v?°  y°ur  patents  s>10"'  any  other  con- 
w  °  e-TPrimented  011  connection  227 

F,  e<1  "'lth  a  ™»'“Wo  resistance, 
as  tailed  for  by  the  issues  of  this  interference-sav 
Up  to  April,  IS 79?  J 

l  do  not  any  in  my  book  of  patents,  other 
than  those  referred  to. 

x-Q.  20n.  I„  your  caveat  filed  August  7th  1S70 
nmmf1'/0  *1,re? ‘Cerent  Pl«w  for  regulating  the 
cunent  of  a  circuit  containing  electric  lamps.  Please 
state  if  you  are  now  employing  any  one  of  the  plans 
therein  suggested  for  the  purpose  stated?  228 

A.  A  one  of  the  plans  for  regulating  the  electro¬ 
motive  force  that  I  notice  in  the  caveat  'are  used  by 
me  at  the  present  time.  The  caveat  was  to  put  on 
record  various  methods  for  accomplishing  the  regu¬ 
lation  of  the  electro-motive  force  in  a  system  of 
electric  lighting.  SySteni  of 

x-Q.  201.  Did  you  ever  put  into  practical  use  any 
of  the  several  plans  proposed  in  the  caveat  in  ques- 
tion"  ^ 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  believe  I  have. 

9  *-Q^2°2.  Prior  to  August  Ttli,  1879? 

x-Q.  m“wfl|  you  explain  why  it  is  that  you  „„ 

not  employ  any  of  the  plans  tl  rein  refer  1  to  , 

the  present  time?  ’  at 

A.  I  refuse  to  do  so. 

eavS^^!I,y°U,UXpl;li'I'Vl,yit  is  in  the 

nhnf’v  r  i  ,  3011  ,,lV°  ‘b  ribed  three  different 
puns,  j  on  fail  to  explain  the  plan  comprisimr  the 
improvement  in  interference,  and  which  you  sta  e 

1  Ssptoi!;,M,ra'”soi" 

Question  objected  to,  so  far  as  it  nmv  relate 

^isiLintUalrL'°'t|tn'CUOn  'vhicl1 -M'-  E'iison 
is  n  ^  M  f°r  10  mison  tllat  Mr.  Edison 
■ire  non  “I  •UP0“  t0  <livu,g0  nnittei-s  which 
the  Patent  ^Office.'''  '*  SUC1'L‘tS’  °r  SCC1'ets  °f 
Counsel  forBmsh  states  that  he  has  no  curb 
osit)  to  learn  anything  of  the  thousand  and 
one  inventions  of  Mr.  Edison;  that  by  words 
tfnn‘7>e  °  1  Ias  confined  his  ques- 

°  tw!'IP,'0Vr“l  111  interference^ and 
d  awin J  f  T'1’  t!esi,'e  or  oxl>ectation  of 
excen  th  t  i  7  "',t,10ss  aily  ‘"formation 

A  The  reason  why  is  this  :  that  I  did  not  think 

,ne » “ 

to  »,!”:"?«  'IT. 

mteriKsitiou  of  doviccs  wasteful  of^eltuXe  !'°Ut  the 
A  variable  resistance  would  be  the  interpos'itioifof 

what  H  !  °ful  °f  electriQ  energj-,  and  this  is 

5“  *  expressly  states  is  not  the  object. 

-vQ.  20a.  You  stated,  I  think,  in  your  former  ev- 

which  vou  that,y0™'d  tryand  fin<1  machine 

S  yoU  n-T  UCtet1  ina(:c01',lance  "’ith  your  patent 
"  A  r’i.a vD  a  ?U<:<;ee<1 1,1  fil,(ling  this  machine  ? 

tl,n  Iv  \  1  la<1  tlmo  to  look>  but  will  do  so  at 

the  earliest  possible  date.  lC 

o  li  S-*  7  ^  answer  to.  Question  10  vou  refer  to 

coil  Ind  he  reS1St,an-e  COilS-  If  this  instruction  of 
coil  had  been  used  since  September,  is  can  vou 
explain  why  no  record  was  made  of  it  until  ov  a 
record  was  made  of  it  at  all,  in  March,  1870?  °  “ 
e  didn  t  need  any  record  or  sketcli  The 
reason  why  the  record  Exhibit  No.  1  was  made  w  s 
that  a  record  could  ho  kept  of  the  work  done  in  the 

slioS™  «  ISrthf°  a,,ything  ab°nt  this  resistance  coil 
“S  fr  any  Pmticulai1  pur- 

-  *?. -OS.  In  answer  to  question  25  direct  von 
refer  to  sales  of  dynamo  machines  provided  with 

S'"  79  wm  "CeS  bGen  madC  sn’ce  rehru- 

Sfl,  pease  «IV0tI,°  address  of  any 

mov  d  d  titli  a  ,0,n,  I™  S°,d  a  dyuam°  machine 
,,  '  d  with  a  variable  resistance  for  regulating 

A.  I  stated  that  this  kind  of  resistances  w« 
used  since  1879,  and  is  now  furnished  with  each 
machine  sold  to  the  public.  I  desire  to  state  that 
the  reason  why  we  did  not  sell  many  machines  to 
the  public  was  my  disinclination  to  go  into  a  ped 
dhng  business  of  selling  small  machinery  to  the 
public,  my  object  being  to  distribute  electricity 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

over  large  areas  by  a  system  of  general  distribution 
analogous  to  that  of  gas. 

x-Q.  209.  Did  you  sell  any  machines  such  as  I 
have  referred  to  in  1879? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  remember  any. 

210  x-Q.  In  answer  to  cross-question  SS  you  state 
that  m  a  dynamo  machine  constructed  in  accord- 
ance  with  patent  219,  393,  the  resistance  increases 

them'f S  I*"  i,,c,'L'ase<1  revolution  of 

the  contact  cylinder.  Is  this  correct' 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  further  cross-examination  of  this  witness  is 
suspended  by  consent  of  parties. 

By  consent  of  parties,  the  testimony  of  Z.  F. 
i  ei  "as  taken  at  this  point,  November  8,  lSSlf 

Exammat'011  of  Thomas  A.  Edison  resumed  on 
Saturday,  November  12th,  lSs], 

Re-direct  examination  bv  Ihttum»  N.  Dykii  ok 
Counsel  fob  Edison: 

Ke-d.  Q.  211.  Referring  to  your  answer  to  cross- 
interrogatory  128,  as  to  the  time  when  the  G 
machine  was  received  at  Menlo  Park,  have  o  t 
since  consulted  memoranda  and  refreshed  vom- 

,»i*™  a  S,, 

January  3d  and  January  22d  1S7-) 

Re-d.  Q.  212.  Referring  to  vour  c,o=s 
tones  in  regard  to  various  patents  of  your  ot  ‘com' 

?"  "ol  ti,0“  ^ 


Z.  F.  Wilbur. 

notCttid3e1  “  adjl,Stable  distance;  and  has  241 

not  this  method  of  regulation,  in  one  form  or  an- 
other,  been  constantly  employed  by  you  since  that 

Objected  to  as  leading,  incompetent  and  im- 

,-B^'i  Tes;  nhe  Use  0f  a"  adillsta,,'e  resistance  for 
legislating  the  strength  of  the  current  in  a  simple 

s  nee’ jm v^is-s  S  ‘T"  US°d  by  me  at  various 
since  July,  18i3,  and  m  connection  with  a  dynamic  0. 

machine,  the  dynamic  machine  and  the  variable  re-  2455 
sistance  being  combined  together  to  admit  of  such 
an  arrangement  being  used  to  <  \j  c  t  i  le- 
vicesrequirnig  electric  currents;  and  1  understood 
tally  the  uses  and  the  methods  of  operation  of  these 
variable  resistances  applied  to  a  simple  electro  mag¬ 
net  and  they  were  not  the  subject  of  experiment¬ 
ation  but  were  practical  devices,  or  rather  a  prac¬ 
tical  device  applied  to  a  dynamic  machine,  the  cur¬ 
rents  from  which  were  to  be  used  for  electric  light- 
mg  purposes  since  the  fall  of  1S7S.  243 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

,rZ'J'  WlLBEIi-  a  witness  produced  in  behalf  of 
-Mr.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  follows  in 
answer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  George  W 
Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison: 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 

A  Z.  F.  Wilber,  age  39;  residence,  New  York  244 
City;  occupation,  patent  solicitor. 

Q.  2.  I  call  your  attention  to  the  testimony  of  Mr 
Edison  contained  on  the  seventh  page  of  the  printed 
record  from  which  I  quote:  “But  I  never  made  a 
claim  to  the  use  of  an  adjustable  resistance  in  the  cir¬ 
cuits  of  such  field  magnets,  until  my  attention  was 
called  .to  the  fact  by  Major  Wilber  in  the  latter 
part  of  1879,  that  this  might  be  patentable”  Do 
you  remember  the  fact  as  stated  by  Mr.  Edison  as 
above,  and  if  so  what  is  your  recollection  of  the  oc- 

z.  F.  Wilbur. 

246  A.  I  remember  of  making  several  suggestions  as 
to  probable  patentability  to  Mr.  Edison,  of  devices 
or  arrangements  used  by  him,  among  wl  ich  was  bis 
-ay  of  regulating  bis  circuit.  It  occurred  at  one 
of  the  visits  I  made  to  Menlo  Park  in  the  early  win- 
simnliVitv  ^  ®^ruck  l>y  the  exceeding 
“  '  V  "S  for  regulating  the  cur 

m  nl  l  n'r  i  C0"1|,el,sate  f01'  fluctuations  in  the 
1  siiKgeste<i  to  hun 

246  n  •!  ',s  pntentable  and  important. 

xi  j  '  '  r  y°u  a  distinct  recollection  whether 

tins  occmred  during  the  year  IS  TO  or  in  ISSOl 

month  oryear°  diSti"Ct  recoIk'ction  °f  the  exact 
Q-4.  Can  you  remember  how  manv  times  a  ml  f„,. 
how  long  a  period  you  visited  Menlo  Pa.k  dmhm 
the  months  of  November  and  December.  1ST!)’  S 
reetd  ’S"’  Cann°Uca,,0,1,y  the  fact  by 

147  on^'h'ose^occa'sions^Ul'1)OSe  ^  80  to  Men,°  Pal'k 

own  motion?  °U  *°  #t  ki-<fuest  orupon  ^our 
A.  I  went  there  upon  my  own  motion. 

tents  By  PermiSS1'°n  of  t,le  Commissioner  of  Pa- 
or  out 'of^f  the,'°  miyt,l'inS  Peculiar  in  such  visits 
A.  Not  so  far  as  I  know. 

other  establishments.’611  'n  ^  llabit  °f  visitin6 

Z.  F.  Wilbur.  C3 

I  vSedX' oral  n  the  pe0p,e  "'hose  “toblishmento  249 
^ilirUheeXPeilSe  °f  PeoPle  who  had  ma-  *“ 

y°u  "'ere  in  the  Patent  Office  had 
jou  visited  other  establishments  than  Mr  Edison’s 
connected  with  electrical  matters.  If  so  whose 
A.  Several,  remembering  now  the  Western  tL„, 

£ps:rM^prhe,ps’  ' 

dall  dZ,°  “n(,„Fnf l'  ?,0I»S  the  Foote  and  Ran- 
dall  shops;  the  Chester  shops  in  this  city;  Davis  and 
'  atsm  Baltimore;  the  Western  electric  in  Clii  oco 
cago;  Jesse  Bunnell’s  when  he  was  in  Plffiadelphiv 
I  have  forgotten  the  name  of  the  firm  am/tvvo 
nLi  sTZ’I1  S*,0PS  jn  Cincinnati  in  1ST5,  whose 
names  I  don  t  remember.  I  was  also  requested  I 
think  m  IS  i  C  by  General  Leggett  to  visit  Cleveland 
mid  see  the  Brush  light,  and  whatever  they  had  to 
show  at  their  expense.  I  was  for  some  cause"  ' urn 
Tmvnclf’  f"d  my  then  first  assistant,  Mr 
1  and  1 Tn  '•  °  VISlt6d  whnt  they  then  had  in  Cleve- 
sent  of  hZ  °XPmSe  Whb  the  knowledge  and  con-  251 

sen  of  tlm  Commissioner.  The  visits  of  my  own 
that  I  spoke  about  were  all  at  my  expense.  * 

Q.  12.  State  whether  or  not  while  you  were  an 

Ediso.  ‘f  Bt  ,°ffiCe  y°U  dW  any  work  tor 
Mi.  Edison  of  any  character;  for  which  you  re¬ 
ceived  or  expected  to  receive  compensation. 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  18.  Do  you  remember  how  it  happens  that 

caT  /Tv  “EE!  1  381  ubsc“bmg  vvitne  to  a 
cav  eat  of  Mr.  Edison’s  filed  December  20th,  1ST9?  ;>52 

A.  I  do  not  remember  the  circumstances  of  the 
caveat.  It  must  have  occurred  because  I  was  nres 

nlei  -M  "V’t”1  S,gn  just  “  1  should  have  wit-' 
liessed  it  had  I  seen  him  sign  it  in  Washington,  a 
thing  which  I,  while  an  officer  in  the  Patent  Office 
done°t  I6*  °fflCerS  in  tho  Patent  0ffice,  have  often 

H.  A.  Seymour; 
bas  stated  in  effect  that  you 

z.  F.  Wilbur. 

S fmatte^  fS  iU  the  matter  in  h«nd,  and  257 
a  T  ,  ats  for  “"Protected  inventions. 

A.  I  do  not  know  whether  Mr.  Edison  acted  nn 
my  suggestions  at  all,  but  I  do  know  that  when 

them  and’filfd  tf  ““  patent  maltl™-  I  noted  upon 
tm.mand  filed  the  proper  applications 

x-Q.  IS  Did  you  file  Mr.  Edison’s  original  annli 
Sion?  Which  tlH3  api>licati0"  ia  interference  is  a 
A.  I  did. 

l!l-  Wj.U  y°u  explain  why  it  was  that  you  di-  258 
uded  the  application  ? 

A.  While  the  original  application  was  pending 

Mr  Brush  a  ft0  S°m?  renson  or  other  ^sued  to 
r1  Bu  .  1  a.l)ilteilt*  covennga  portion  of  such  pend- 
?al.)pIlt‘ltlon-  Tlle  remaining  portion  of  that  ap- 
phcation  was  not  affected  by  Mr.  Brush’s  patent 
and  hence  I  exercised  our  right  of  dividing  into  an 
tufenng  and  non-interfering  application. 

Office  for  some  ™  “the  Patent 

umce  foi  some  leason  or  other  issued  to  Mi-.  Binsli  Sflff 

c-i Sn"  ’  XTngn  P°rti0n  of  ^‘Pending appU- 
.  Hai  e  you  any  reason  to  believe  that  this 
examffi  d°?e  3  "l®1®  0VelsiKht  on  the  part  of  the 
examiner  having  charge  of  the  cases.  In  other 
woids,  that  he  overlooked  the  Brush  application  it 
having  already  passed  to  issue.  rt 

A.  I  have  made  no  charges  in  this  connection.  I 

wither  n7  ^  thC  faCt  1  “m  '10t  g°il]g  t0  state 
ethei  I  have  any  opinion,  good,  bad,  or  indifferent 
in  the  matter.  260 

x-Q.  21.  Have  you  any  reason  to  believe  tliat  the 
examiner  was  aware  of  the  fact  that  the  Edison  ap- 

.’rffifto’ll 11  qU,eStl,°n  "'as  P'mrtmg  or  had  been  filed 
pnoi  to  the  actual  grant  of  the  Brash  patent  ? 

called issuauce  of  the  Brash  patent  I  had 
called  the  attention  of  an  assistant  examiner,  into 

inferred  *t”dS  1  ,k,ne™tbe  original  application  before 
lefeiTed  to  would  go  for  action,  to  the  fact  of  its  fil- 

x-Q.  22.  For  what  purpose  did  you  call  the  atten- 

Z.  F.  Wilbur. 

. on. «» M,lgi„‘t 


!'»'■  to  tit,  £*££«“• "ftl“l,“1"- 


men  ted  with  iiul»li,l-  „ii  ,  .  01  uxI»en- 

fact  that  I  am  about  to'fn?  “S  “ttentio»  to  tlie 
14  such  and  such  purposes.  L  “1,1,I,CilUon  covt™>fe' 

the  cxiiniineHo  tiiis  !!L1'>U  ca.l,L‘tl  tl,e  attention  of 
remember  whether  or  not  ti!ere°w-  °1“t  doyou 
Ijy  you  or  by  the  examiner  rei-iti ve  to  ,‘,U1y*,u,1£  Si,i<1 
of  Brush,  then  pending.  ‘  tl,e  “Implication 

ttauKSif™,'"”  *"*  1  "ovoikno,- 

jsz  ss  ma  1 

z.  F.  WlLUKB. 

Francis  Jehl. 

Tlie  taking  of  further  testimony  i 
consent  to  Wednesday,  November  9 
o  clock  A.  M. 

Wji.  H.  Mead 

Pursuant  to  adjournment,  tlie  taking  of  testi- 
mony  was  continued  on  Wednesday,  November  9tli, 
same  parties  being  present. 

^  FifAxcis  Jeiil,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf  of 
Mi.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  follows  in 
answer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  George  W 
Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison: 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 

in'ar  Fr°,S  Jeh1.’  oge’  22;  "ccupation,  assistant 
New  York  °" 1  101  East'  T've»tieth  street, 

Q.  2.  State  when  and  where  you  first  went  into 
the  employ  of  Mr.  Edison? 

A.  I  was  engaged  in  February,  1S79,  and  com¬ 
menced  to  work  at  the  laboratoiy  in  Menlo  Park  on 
March  3d,  1S79. 

in?.  3.  What  was  the  first  work  you  were  engaged 
A.  I  assisted  Mr.  Upton  in  beginning  some  expe- 
tliem  t&emBWne'SD,n0  reslst:ance  boxes>  adjusting 
Q.  4.  When  you  went  into  Mr.  Edison’s  employ  ** 
did  lie  have  m  use  dynamo  machines.  If  so.  of 
wiiafc  kind  and  how  many  ? 

A  We  did  I  remember  two;  one  known  as  the 
Wallace  machine  and  the  other  known  as  the 

Q.  5  Did  either  of  these  machines  or  both  of 
them  at  that  time  have  devices  for  primarily  vary- 
mg  the  strength  of  the  current  energizing  its  field 

Francis  Jelil. 

^69  of  force  electro  magnets;  and  if  so,  what  descrip, 
tion  of  means  were  so  employed? 

Question  objected  to  as  leading. 

A.  They  had.  There  was  a  sort  of  resist-mc  e— 
zig-zag  like-by  which  certain  lengths  of  the  wire 

could  be  cut  out  or  put  in  so  as  to  increase  or  di- 
muiisli  the  current  which  circulated  through  the 
magnets  of  the  dynamo  machine  and  thereby  in¬ 
creasing  or  diminishing  the  main  current. 

WO  Q-  «.  Did  you  work  on  the  construction  of  any 
resistance  coils  after  you  went  into  the  employ  of 
Mr.  Jt.di.son;  if  so,  when,  and  of  what  character 
were  the  resistance  coils  ? 

dh  J  '!"]•,  K  w;is  1,1  ‘lie  early  part  of  March, 
IN. '.  that  I  began  to  adjust  and  wind  some  resist¬ 
ance  boxes  for  the  purpose  of  regulating  the  current 
n.lwu  mo  machines,  as  the  arrangement  we  lmd 
befoie  that  time  was  rather  crude. 

Q.  7.  Please  examine  Exhibit  No.  1,  now  shown 
ZVT  W,,other  th»  '^■•stances  you  have  just 

A.  They  were. 

you  know  what  was  done  with  those  re- 
sistances  after  they  were  made? 

•  Yes’.si1"  tho>'  "'ere  substituted  in  place  of  the 
light. k  1CS,1Stanc0S  usetl  in  ‘-“xporiments  on  electric 

Q.  9.  Do  you  mean  they  were  actually  put  in  use 
272  m  connection  with  dynamo  machines? 

Objected  to  as  leading. 

A.  Ido. 

Q.  10.  How  long  continued  was  such  use  of  such 
“C>°r  those  of  a  similnrkindand  chaLcte, 
m  connection  with  dynamo  machines,  for  varying 

niagiietef  °f  ^  CUnw,t  of  the  fieId  of  forct 
Objected  to  for  the  reason  that  the  witness 

A.  Ever  since  I’ve  been  with  Mr.  Edison  I  have 
known  him  to  use  resistances  for  such  purposes. 

Q.  11.  Please  look  at  the  exhibits  already  intro¬ 
duced  iu  testimony  in  this  case,  marked  Edison’s 
Exhibits,  Nos.  2,  3,  4,  5,  0  and  7,  and  state  whether 
or  not  you  recognize  any  of  them.  If  so,  when  and 
where  did  you  first  see  them? 

A.  I  recognize  all  of  them,  and  saw  them  when  I 
first  went  to  the  laboratory  at  Menlo  Park.  274 

Q.  12.  Did  you  see  any  or  all  of  them  in  actual 
use  at  Menlo  Park;  and  if  so,  please  state  in  what 
connection  as  to  machines,  and  for  what  purposes? 

Objected  to  as  leading,  the  witness  not  hav- 
ing  testified  that  he  has  ever  seen  these  ex¬ 
hibits  l.i  connection  with  any  machines  what- 

A.  I  have  seen  them  in  actual  use.  I  remember 
seeing  them  in  connection,  or.  rather,  in  circuit  with  275 
the  Gramme  machine,  which  was  used  for  exciting 
the  magnets  of  the  Wallace  machine.  I  also  re¬ 
member  seeing  them  used  on  the  WaUace  machine 

alone.  The  Wallace  machine  we  had  there  was  one 
known  as  a  duplex  machine,  or  in  other  words,  it 
was  two  machines  combined  into  one.  The  resist¬ 
ance  coils  were  connected  in  circuit  with  one  part  of 
this  machine,  and  the  current  used  to  excite  the 
magnets  of  the  other  part.  Then,  again,  I  have 
seen  just  thejreverse  of  this— the  Wallace  used  as  276 
an  exciter  to  the  Gramme.  The  object  was  to  in¬ 
crease  or  diminish  the  main  current  for  experiments 
with  electric  lighting. 

for  Brush: 

x-Q.  13.  Prior  to  your  employment  by  Mr.  Edison, 

.ill  what  business  were  you  engaged,  or  what  was 
your  occupation  or  profession? 

A.  I  was  engaged  at  the  Western  Union  Telegraph 

n;  employment  by  Mr.  Edison. 
3  you  engaged,  or  what  was 

Company;  my  occupation  was  working  on  tele 

pho^ntUiattimelwasunoviceintl  thus 

.\-y.  14.  At  wliat  time  were  you  a  novice  in  tint 
biisiiiess—when  employed  l,y  tbe  Western  Union  or 
"  hen  employed  by  Mr.  Edison* 

■di'-umv”  TP,oyod  1,y  tllu  Weste'n  Union,  and 
also  at  my  early  engagement  with  Mr.  Edison 

ancSf  Mr.  aiiJonf1  ^  »‘«ko  «*°  acquaint- 

A.  I  believe  it  was  in  1S70  or  '77. 
tint  v  IC'  YoUBtnto  in  n,ls"'e1,  to  question  2,  direct 
Mr.  Edison  in  February 
gaged?  t,,n°,n  Fel'»'«0- were  you  thus  em 

montb.ShOUM  Siy  14  "'as  n,,,,ut  il]  the  ™Wdie  of  the 
?'?ien  (li<]  you  ant  vWt  Menlo  Park? 
me^t.  t0n  °r  lWclV0  da-VS  afte>-  engage- 
\S-  Dld  you  go  through  tbe  shops  or  labora- 
to  March  3dalJS"o  Edison's  improvements  prior 
Kn Ed£,n*‘U-  Wh0n  -V0U  firet  < 1  vrorfc 

A.  No,  Sir. 

l:'-  WIlen  you  commenced  work  for  Air 

S-  ",’,0  /°U  ^  cm'^"»»t  to  £ 

of  msearcbT  a"  ‘H  ,S8ist  him  that  line 

wmited  done'’  m0PB,y  to  088181  hil"  in  whatever  be 

A.  I  should  say  about  thirty. 

asaslistants^ra/m-, cbi!!!5  "01*n,en  desig»ated 

jobs,  as  vousav  J  .  *  01  kmen  doing  odd 

chinists.  y’  hG  majont>’  of  them  being  ma- 

workman^  wrej^not  T  emi’Ioyed  M  nn  ordinary 

.Francis  Jebl. 

wnTi?'  f:,  Please  exiJlain  the  character  of  your 
jo  £  while  employed  by  the  Western  Union  Jom- 

slPSii i 

x-Q.  25.  How  many  assistants  did  Air  Edi«m 
A.  About  five  or  six. 

x-Q.  20.  And  the  duties  of  these  assistants 
simply  to  do  such  mechanical  work  as  was  necessary 
to  cany  out  the  instnictions  of  Mr.  Edison  in  mak 
iUThehnlhttS  °rderetl  by  him-  Is  n°t  this  true  i 
suggestions  as^Afr  Tv  amy  °Ut  suoh  ideas  and 

KmnJ  T  Ml-  Chal,ies  Batchelor,  Air  j0im 


xQ. ->&.  M  ho  had  charge  of  this  force  ofem- 

Francis  Jelil. 

286  A.  I  believe  Mr.  Edison. 

h&LEr  ci”Eeot  •«**»» 

A.  There  was  no  such  system  as  they  have 
shops  m  the  laboratory  then.  Mr.  Batchelor  was 


A.  About  two  weeks. 

31-  At.  t',at  time  tlifl  you  know  for  what  pur- 
pose  these  resistance  boxes  were  to  be  used  ? 

x-Q.  32.  In  March,  1ST!*,  did  you  see  any  other 
dynamo  machmes  at  Menlo  Park  except  the  two  von 


those  experiments.  11 

x-Q.  33.  Any  other  ? 


mere  experiments  only  ?  eie  tnej 

288  ^They  were  experiments. 

™  j  **  °“r  "“hiM  ‘"»i 

A  QNo)','  y°U  Witnws  8Uch  exponments  ? 

A.  I  have  no  personal  knowledge. 


Francis  Jehl. 

"’“■‘-•I  289 

r  “  r 

electric  machines »  "  s  n,aK|]eto- 

"t**— » , 

”“‘S  ZlTr  Th  • 

oomso,  boine  in  tin  of 

goes?  f  your  personaI  knowledge 

xbT^T)1  firsfc.";ont int0  tI,e laboratory. 

42.V! I  S““  “»  ™ •<  *■» 

bots?S~a  of  lt  1  also  remember  the 

w£fa  £  °Vei‘  t,le1'6’  eX',ibited  in  «*  case>  « 

—  a„ 

•  ttot'tLr“«,“ylare™e”l?V-  1  remember 
ments  above  described.  ”  W,th  tl,e  exPeri- 

toIy1n4use?Did  ^  2ig‘Zag  resistance  P™  satisfac- 

we  wound  them  around  tees  ‘  "***  C°mpass 
x-Q.  46.  In  the  use  of  the  zig-zag  resistance  was 

A.  I  believe  the  wires  did  heat. 

x-Q.  47.  Do  you  not  know  that  that  was  the  fact' 

A.  I  do. 

x-Q.  4S.  Anil  for  that  reason  the  resistance  boxes 
"'ere  substituted  in  their  placo,  were  they  not? 

A.  J  liat,  no  doubt,  is  one  of  the  reasons. 
x-Q.  40.  In  March,  1S70,  please  explain  fully  the 
particular  work  performed  by  you  on  these  resist- 
nice  boxes'; 

A.  Such  ns  making  them,  or  rather  making  the 
a  lie  a  certain  length,  so  as  to  equal  a  certain  unit 
>r  part  of  a  unit  called  the  ohm.  which  is  the 
mit  of  resistance? 

x-Q.  i,0.  How  many  zig-zag  resistances  were  in 
ise  when  you  went  to  Menlo  Park? 

A.  1  remember  only  the  one  that  I  have  spoken  of. 
ime?  nl*  iI°"  "  aS  tlud  used  or  connected  at  that 

A.  It  was  in  circuit  with  a  machine  used  to  excite 
lie  magnet  of  another  machine. 
x-Q.  52.  Please  describe  the  manner  in  which  Ex- 
ubits  2,  3,  4,  5,  0  and  7  were  used  at  Menlo  Park 
rom  the  tune  you  first  went  there,  and  if  anv 
banges  were  made  in  their  use  please  explain  sucii 
hanges?  1 

A.  The  whole  apparatus  was  divided  in  two  parts, 
ne  on  the  ground  floor  of  the  laboratory  and  the 
ther  part  on  the  floor  above  it,  connected  by  the 
ails  marked  Exhibit  0.  The  resistanceboxes  were 
n  the  upper  fioor,  and  cut  in  and  out  by  means  of 
*  „  ":h'ch  was  connected  to  the  rods,  the 
f  ,  t1’C  10d  bei,'K  connected  with  a  kind 

hood,  marked  Exhibit  Iso.  5.  The  old 
°e  made1"0  * h°n  substituted  fo>'  the  new  ones  that 

iw£d  Lh!!^vS  1  "nderetand  y°'h  ‘he  rheotome 
5  a”d  p^'ts  designated  asEx- 

...  b,:„°  and  ‘  111  connection  with  the  resistance 

-,C  n'an8ed  »*  Ton  have  described,  at  the 

Menlo  Park  laboratory,  in  March  ie-n  i 
"•ent  there;  am  I  cm  Jet?  ’  W,°*  when  yon 

A.  You  are. 

was'tS’till'fmmo!  fmm,  tbat  "'hen  I 

itiJLTtotZ*  at  ,the  lab01'at01'y  until  recently 
storad  away  ,e  "'°rks  in  Ne"'  Y«rk  and 

A  Vs^s!2bfnT,er°f  t-heGm,llme  machine? 
taken  ‘°  CaIlfw,,la>  if  1  am  not  mis- 

E.h5n  JtiScasef  *  ^  ot  **■ 

ImwHw  IJimpwJt  "°t8e0n,t’  °",y  thl’S  mornil,S 

Ci  oss-oxammation  ended 

JL,K“‘"  ,k'°"n“ ,o  »« 

Fraxcis  Jehl. 

Ar,J°v  r  KrVBS!’  a  witness  produced  in  behalf  of 
Mr.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn  testifies  „  MW  in 
answer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  Geo  W 
Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison:  *  "  • 

occQupationeaSeSt!lte  age,  residence  and 

residence,  40 

of  the  Electric  Tube  Co  Jpany.^  °n’  T,easurer 

employ  of  Mr.  EdtaJj  and  if  s^from'Vh ' 'tt*  ^ 
what  time,  and  in  what  cajcity?  ^  tme  to 

nine’ w  Stfsho1S°nt  6mpl«  ** 

months'  First  as  an  instrun^S^  £ 

John  Kruesi. 

last  [ivu  -vwirs  !ls  foreman  of  the  mechanical  d  ,  ,rt- 
ment.  1 

Q.  :i.  Were  you  in  Ins  employ  during  all  the  time 
of  the  years  IS78,  1S79,  and  1SS0? 

A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  4  When  did  you  firat  know  of  his  having  and 
using  dynamo-electric  machines? 

A.  It  was  about  September,  1S7S. 

Q.  a.  IIow  many  or  such  machines  and  of  what 
general  character  or  name? 

A.  We  had  first  a  small  Wallace  machine.  Then 


Q.  ti.  State  when  you  first  knew  Mr.  Edison  to 
combine  a  dynamo-electric  machine  with  suitable 
devices  for  primarily  varying  the  strength  of  the 

current  exciting  its  field  of  force  electro  magnets, 
cember  lsl's 1  ^  *  rGmo,nl,ei'>  1  think  was  in  Do- 

and'  StatV’ if  y°U  romombel-' tbo  kind  of  machine 
and  the  connecting  mechanism  for  varying  the 
strength  of  the  current  as  aforesaid? 

us«l  on  Id,  "w  n  Ml'Iy  1'omcmbel'  whether  it  was 
"  °  WalIac®  ma<Hiiiie,  but  I  think  so.  To 

the  best  of  my  recollection  it  was  used  on  the  Wal- 
after^'esisf116'  W°  1USed  magMet  sPools  and 
on  a  S!inCeS  nKl  °  °f  Wire  °r  sheet  »«*»!  "gang 

A  if-,,n-Vtlli"K’  was  USL'<1  after  that? 

the  whl  wnT  W,ro7und  011  wooden  spools  bo  that 

r,  rb°Sed,t0t,'U  air  a]1  around,  or  as 
O  T  n  ,  b  <3’ 111  01'der  to  «ool  it  off. 
y.  .  Did  you  use  any  means  at  that  time  nr  it 
an  ember  day  to  adjust  the  resistance? 

A-  From  early  >79  up  to  to-day. 

?'  V;  Cal!  ?’ou  fix  an-v  date  in  early  ’79? 

•  There 
more  definitely  g1' e  1 10  date 


A.  I  think  so. 

Q-  13.  Since  some  time  in  the  fall  of  isrs  1,1,. 


chhiefwlnVb  th?  Case  with  tI,e  dynamo  ma-  “ 
u«f  of  the  make  o”oth^S"  th°Se  Whfch  he 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

^.ease  examine  the  Exhibits  2,  3,  4  5  0 
and  i  m  tins  case  and  state  whether  or  not  von 

themnioethher\a,rd  when  and  where  you  fust  saw 
them,  to  the  best  of  your  recollection. 

SHSISHk!  - 

c  an^  ‘  about  November,  -70  * 

s,  5. K°-  s.  *  <  pu. 

A.  For  varying  the  electro  motive  force  of  dv 
namo  electric  machines.  - ' 

used?1"'  D°  y°U  lemember  how  long  they  were  so 

A.  I  do  not  remember  how  long  these  particular 

John  Kmesi. 

m  ",s  T° 

"e,e  in  use  all  the  time. 

S'  "’as  11,0  arrangement  made  use  ..f 
5)0amlC7?l'S,On  10  <;"‘pIo>'n,ent  of  the  Exhibits 
'V<-‘,'°l,S011  t0  “'"Wo  «io  men  to  regulate 

Z:!rxrt,n  rm°  »f  u»  -»•£: 

Q.  in.  Do  yon  remember  how  long  these  mW,V„ 
*  ai  Mo,"°  *»•*•  “■ 

FoTi, 8,1  1  kn  u»” '» mS 

y--0.  Please  exannne  Edison’s  Exhibit  No  l 

anil  are  the  initials  of  yo.n- name!  '  han<l"'r,tm« 
oid  you  make  thorn?  ’  1,11  cla,t 

A-  Aes;  I  remember  they  were  made  1„- 

*ZZ53N*  l “*  “» ■>”•»  <» «» W 

March,  is 70.  3  delivered  the  loth  of 

.  connection  with*  a'dvinn  tll0S°  "T-  put  in  usu  1,1 

312  finished.  ’  3  put  111  USB  directly  they  were 

an?e  coilsDwoy°U  Timber  whether  or  not  resist- 

T  Tfhi "w?  ma  °  bef01e  that  «l«tel 

John  Kruesi. 

in  them^chineXp,  ami  of  ouS’work'^'^16"1  318 

m;",?s;tdyo“^dnothingtodo'''ith  the  w- 

A.  No. 

3  And  you  were  not  concerned  whether  the 
experiments  m  the  laboratory  were  successful  or 
unsuccessful,  were  you?  successful  oi 

A.  No,  sir. 

to, t1!S;  We'TtllG  ™aohine  shops  and  the  labora- 
t  4  No  c  PaiH  a”  ^dependent  departments?  31, 

4«„a«„L  ! 

■4SS-  “j”,!:™  cl"s'  o,“” » 

A.  Only  over  part  of  the  force. 
x-Q.  30.  Please  give,  the  names  of  the  persons 
employed  m  the  laboratory  who  we  unde  ou 

°  Pa't  °r 1S7S  and  sprill£of  1379  ? 

w,7;n  .  *  f  .pai,t  of  1S7S  tlle  machine  shop 

I  .,  ,  11  the  same  building  with  the  laboratory  and  I  o1s 
had  charge  of  all  hands  except  a  very  few.  5 

x-Q  31.  Please  give  the  names  of  the  persons 
ployed  in  the  laboratory  i„  February  and  March 
a  t  '  °  "rn‘e  U1,,lelh your  charge  and  direction  ? 

Tlte  we,  ®  r  \  Ge°rge  Hil1’  Geoi'Se  Carman. 

‘  O  so  w  ?,  whose  names  I  don’t  remember. 

-  Q.  3_.  W  as  Mr.  Jehl,  the  witness  who  testified 
this  morning,  under  your  charge  at  that  time  * 

A.  He  was  under  my  charge  the  first  two  weeks 
lie  was  there. 

x-Q.  38.  Were  the  dynamo  machines  you  have  316 
spoken  of  located  and  operated  in  the  laboratory « 

A  They  were  located  in  the  laboratory  until 
Christmas,  1878,  after  which  time  we  moved  Wo 
*  v  ne'Lmw!inf  sl10p  and  p,aced  them  all  there. 

removed  from  the  laboratory?  X 

A.  I  had  charge  of  them  so  far  as  the  taking  care 

John  Kruesi. 

817  of  them  goes,  but  Mr.  Upton  •imMr.-  pr 

tliem  in  experimenting.  '  ‘  Edlso"  "swI 

and  Mr.35'uptona"yse0ttl|!er  M‘‘  m*>" 

nT  t,le 

and  Mr  C'larke  BatC,W,0r  a,,d  Iater  Mr.  Jehl 
and  used  a  dynamo' oltitric'mnSl^o  ahoS'Se,” 

818  t  n1  'Ias ‘here  “»1  hbw  them  in  use 
-«£SS,,C,,raMhte  were  *"  ‘<>e 

toh\!e^V  1,0,10  unI>-  one. 

vQ.  ».  A  top  or  . . .  iimchino  I 

“  “»  ™n' 

chine?  *  08  t  lu  s,i!u  of  the  small  ma- 

819  vSJ'SSl?*'?*1  ft  ohout  five  or  six 
the  machine!'"0  ’  d<m't  kn°"'  tho  "umber  of 

this  macliine?  ’  ’  1  at  Ml’-  Edlson  first  had 

soma  at  m“  WaflaSswori-  Mr’  f1?0"  was  in  An‘ 
iweived  a  machine  from  them  y  aft°‘' 

830  ir*^^ttl;:£cttbat^ m- 

California^anc^two  or^th"  J,I,>\1S7S>  **  went  to 
to  experiment  on  elect.* ILlT^  1after  he  bt«;ln 
up  to  see  Mr.  Wallace  witi®  «  that  he  went 
were  away  Saturday  and  Sun^'  ’  BatPhe,or-  T1>ey 
•Monday.  ‘  Sunday  and  returned  on 

returned  ?  Ile”  "°S  tllls  sma11  Wallace  machine 

the  latter  part  of  Novemb^^0™^  1878 ;  perhal,s 

John  Krii 

ceived  l44'  WbBn  "’aS  th° large  Wallace  machine  re- 
A.  I  think  it  was  in  October,  1S7S 

ceived*?50’  WlMm  WaS  tlle  G,amme  machine  re- 
A.  In  January,  ]S70. 

chilli?  57'  What  WaS  d°”°  with  ti.e  Weston  ma- 

street,  NewYoil-/0  ^  Bergmann’  of  Wooster 
x-Q.  58.  When  was  it  sold  and  delivered  ? 

w»‘»"  “■ 

„ 11  was  very  seldom  used. 
x-Q.  00.  What  do  you  mean  bv  “  e  i  i  ,  „ 

TQ^'-  f0''  what  purpose  was  it  used  ? 

A'  F°‘  e'ectnc  l*Sht  experiments. 

o~  of  a,; 

V  nTran  wkn°"’?edse  ahvaJ’s  alone. 
feiTCd +n  '  ^  B1f  th.e  other  machines  you  have  re- 
fa  1  of  S-S  arng  been  used  at  Menlo  Park  in  the 
SS  US°d  -  namo  °r  as  mag- 
A.  They  were  used  both  ways. 

-x-Q  04.  Wl,y  were  they  used  both  ways? 

’  ' 1  aan  *  answer  this  question  exactly. 
a  V°-  Wh/Jcan’t  you  answer  tins  question? 

A.  Because  I  do  not  remember  the  experiments 
hey- were  used  in.  It  would  shorten  the  whole 
thing  to  say  I  don’t  know. 

x-Q.  CO  Please  explain  how  it  came  about  tint 
you  had  knowledge  of  the  fact  that  these  machines 

John  Kruesi. 

^^SSSTJSSiSJS  -  888 

l mmm 

mryonwniLkrto  h°'V  C°nnecti°”s 

this  dynamo  .machine !n  qn^ZaT'^f  ™ 

StT^  «"  the  proper  circuit  regulate 
the  strength  of  the  field  of  force-magnets? 

f '  /  aln  not  certain  enough  that  I  could  swear 
was  so."aS  S°’  bUtt°  tl,C  1,e°fc  0t  my  reco]1ection  it 
Z%1°'  Sm  y0U  are  n0t  certain  on  this  point? 

cem?erSlS7?a  l*™  refeiTed  to  the  month  of  Do- 
By  wlnt  incide?  ^lVMSrenS°metI,lngatthattime.  331 
your  S  that  Pa,'fciCU,ar  m0nth  m 

„ ,;'V  IJhinkit  was  at  that  time  that  Mr.  Edison 
1  •  ,T  exPeninents  with  the  electric  light  dav 
and  night  continuously,  until  his  eyes  were  so’ sore 
that  he  had  to  stop,  and  at  that  thne  ^  nse(l  the 

ber,  ?sts;  W“»»k“l™U'i»kil™i»Dec.,„- 
A.  I  remember  some  of  the  work  tint  ^ 

about  El r£  "’Wch  he  —  experimt  ts6 

ance^at  Menlo  Park^  conrerned^ar^you6  willing 
to  swear  positively  that  prior  to  April  1879  IS 
adjustable  resistances  were  used  in  connection  until 
dynamo  or  magneto-electric  machines  to  rem^t 
the  strength  of  their  field  of  fo 
you  wish  to  be  understood  as  testifying  the  fact 

John  Kruesi. 

888  that  adjustable  resistances  were  there  employed,  but 
their  particular  location  and  function  you  had  no 
knowledge  of  ’ 

A  I  can  positively  swear  that  they  have  been 
used  about  the  time  above  named  for  that  purpose 
x-Q.  S3.  Then  please  give  a  detailed  description 
of  the  construction  of  an  adjustable  resistance,  and 
the  different  circuits  of  a  dynamo  or  magnoto-olec- 
tric  machine,  with  which  it  was  connected,  prior  to 
^Pfn  :  18{®«  f“r«>or  specify  the  particular  cir- 
334  cult  in  which  the  adjustable  resistance  was  located’ 
^  resistance  coils  were  inserted  in  the  line 
ot  the  field  magnet.  I  am  not  sure  enough  to 
describe  the  circuits  I  am  sure  that  I  knew  them; 
v  O  s .  w,S  ?S°  tha  1  have  fersotten  about  it. 
x-Q.  84.  What  were  the  ends  of  the  line  of  the 
field  magnets  connected  with  ’ 

so  hinc  that  t  fd  !10thin?  t0  <l0  with  connecfious  for 
so  long  that  I  feel  uncertain  about  them 

x-Q.  85.  Can  you  tell  us  the  particular  parts  of 
835  the  machine  with  which  the  main  circuit  was  con 
nected  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

x-Q.  86.  Can  you  tell  us  how  these  connections 
are  made  in  the  machines  of  Mr.  Edison,  in  use  to- 

1  i\?n  le-  C“'CUit  °f  the  fleld  of  f0I'ce  mag- 
nets,  and  the  mam  circuit 7  ** 

A.  No,  sir. 

tionsof  the  dynamo  machines  employed  by  Mr 
Edison  prior  to  April,  1879, 1  desire  to  know  ho  w 
you  are  enabled  to  swear  positively,  andTyouare 

Dr/ortn6^6  th<J  macI]ines  used  at  Menlo  Park, 

pnoi  to  April,  1879,  resistance  coils  were  placed  in 
the  circuit  of  the  field  of  force  magnets’ 

thl  T6  S,Tn  d°ne’  and  at  thc  moment  I 
thought  I  could  explain  it.  But  now  it  has  slipped 

xQnei TITh1  Can\eXP,ain  !t  “ 

X  Q'  8S'  But  the  Pomt  is,  how  do  you  know  it 

was  the  circuit  of  the  field  of  force  magnets  when 
you  can’t  describe  the  circuit  ?  Are  you  positive  in 
this  matter? 

A.  I  am  not  positive. 

x-Q.  89.  Were  the  resistance  coils  made  in 
March,  1S79,  substituted  for  the  spools  and  the  zig¬ 
zag  wires,  because  the  wire  of  the  latter  burned  up 
in  use  ? 

A.  Yes;  I  think  so. 

x-Q.  90.  You  are  not  positive,  are  you,  as  to  just 
how  the  adjustable  resistances  were  used  in  connec¬ 
tion  with  dynamo  electric  machines  from  early  in 
1S79,  up  to  to-day  ? 

A.  No;  I  am  not  so  positive  that  I  can  explain  it. 
I  know  how  they  were  used,  and  have  seen  them  in 
use  daily,  but  cannot  explain  it. 

x-Q.  91.  Do  j’ou  mean  to  be  understood  as  saying, 
that  you  have  seen  adjustable  resistances  used  in 
one  of  the  circuits  of,  or  connected  with  the  dynamo 
machine,  but  that  you  are  not  positive  which  circuit 
did  include  such  resistances  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  92.  Not  being  positive  in  this  matter,  you 
would  not  swear  positively,  would  you,  that  the 
adjustable  resistances  served  to  regulate  the 
strength  of  the  field  of  force  magnets  ? 

A.  I  am  aware  that  nothing  else  is  used  to-day, 
and  nothing  else  was  used  but  that,  to  regulate 
with;  that  outside  of  this,  there  is  hut  one  way, 
that  is  varying  the  speed,  that  would  regulate  it. 
The  first  is  done  as  being  always  performed.  But 
as  I  cannot  explain  the  matter  thoroughly,  I  do  not 
want  to  swear  it. 

x-Q.  93.  Were  the  resistance  coils,  delivered  on 
March  19tli,  1S79,  used  for  various  purposes  where 
a  resistance  was  required  ? 

A.  As  to  that  I  do  not  know.  I  know  that  they 
were  ordered  for  the  purpose  of  regulating  the  elec¬ 
tro  motive  force. 

x-Q.  94.  Are  you  positive  that  these  coils  were 
finished,  or  delivered  on  the  19th  of  March,  1879  ? 

86  John  Kruesi. 

A.  I  would  not  have  made  the  entry  in  the  book 
if  they  had  not  been  delivered  then. 

rJ'Q-  »5-  D°  you  know  exactly  when  any  of  these 

coils  u ere  first  used  in  connection  with  a  dynamo 
machine?  J 

A.  No ;  I  do  not  know  the  exact  date,  but  I  re¬ 
member  there  was  a  great  hurry  for  them,  and  they 
were  used  as  soon  as  they  could  have  them. 
Cross-examination  ended. 

witness^6'11'  decIinos  to  tTossexaniino  the 

Re-direct  Examination,  by  George  W.  Dyer 
Counsel  for  Edison: 

Re-d.  Q.  Oii.  You  have  testified  that  you  were  a 


A.  No.  sir. 

Re  d.  Q.  nr.  Do  you  remember  the  fact  that  Mr 

Lpton  came  to  Menlo  Park?  *  ' 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Re-d.  Q.  OS.  Was  Mr.  Edison  experimenting  on 
Park™  mPS  1X!f0re  Mr-  U',t0I>  «»"o  to  Menlo 
A.  I  think  he  was. 

Re-d.  Q.  09.  Was  Mr.  Edison  using  dynamo-elec- 
tackmachmes  before  Mr.  Upton  came  to  Menlo 

A.  Yes;  I  believe  he  was. 

Re-d.  Q.  ion  Was  Mr.  Edison  using  dynamo- 

John  Kruesi. 

A.  I  am  not  sure— I  believe  so.  345 

Re-d.  Q.  102.  Was  he.  before  Mr.  Upton  came 
permanently  to  Menlo  Park? 

t  A.  I  believe  so. 

(  Re-d.  Q.  103.  Immediately  after  Air.  Upton  came 

permanently  to  Menlo  Park,  did  Mr.  Edison  con¬ 
tinue  to  employ  dynamo-electric  machines  for  furn¬ 
ishing  a  current  to  electric  lights? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he  did. 

Re-d.  Q.  104.  In  such  employment  of  the  dyna¬ 
mo-electric  machines,  did  he  use  an  adjustable  re-  346 

Objected  to  as  not  re-direct. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Re-d.  Q.  105.  What|  was  the  purpose  of  that  ad¬ 
justable  resistance? 

A.  To  vary  the  electro-motive  force  of  the  dyna¬ 
mo-electric  machines. 

(  Re-d.  Q.  100.  When  you  answered  the  numerous 

questions,  on  cross-examination,  that  you  did  not  347 
recollect  the  precise  connections  which  were  em¬ 
ployed  by  Mr.  Edison,  with  his  dynamo  machines, 
did  you  mean  to  imply  that  you  had  any  doubt 
whatever  of  the  use  or  purposes  of  use  of  the  ad¬ 
justable  resistances  employed  by  Mr.  Edison  in  the 
fall  of  1S7S,  and  the  following  winter  and  spring? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not  the  slightest  doubt. 

Re-cross  Examination  by  H.  A.  Seymour,  Esq., 
Counsel  for  Brush- 


Re-x-Q.  107.  When  did  Mr.  Upton  come  to  Men¬ 
lo  Park.  Give  the  date  ? 

A.  I  can’t  remember  the  date.  I  think  it  was  in 
the  fall  of  1S7S,  but  I  am  not  sure. 

Re-x-Q.  10S.  Might  it  have  been  as  early  as  Sep¬ 
tember  1,  1S7S  ? 

A.  I  don’t  think  he  came  permanently  to  Menlo 
Park  as  early  as  September. 

Re-x-Q.  100.  Are  you  positive  that  he  did  not 
come  as  early  as  September,  187S  ? 

Jonn  Kraesi. 

A.  No ;  I  am  not  positive  at  all. 

Re-x-Q.  110.  When  he  came  to  Menlo  Park  did 
Mr.  Upton  have  aught  to  do  with  your  particular 
class  of  work  ? 

A.  He  ordered  some  experimental  apparatus  to  he 
made  in  the  shop. 

Re-x-Q.  111.  Who  ordered  them  before  ho  came  ? 
A.  Mr.  Batchelor  or  Mr.  Edison. 

Re  x-Q.  112.  Is  there  any  incident  or  fact  by 
which  you  can  distinctly  remember  the  fact  of  his 
850  arrival  at  Menlo  Park  ? 

A.  Not  without  reference  to  my  note  hook. 
Re-re-direct  examination-  bv  Geo.  W.  Dvfr 
Counsel  for  Edison  : 

Re-re-d.  Q.  113.  Was  not  Mr.  Upton’s  employ¬ 
ment  the  first  instance  in  which  Mr.  Edison  had 
called  to  his  assistance  a  gentleman  of  exact  scien¬ 
tific  information ;  and  did  not  that  fact  make  a 
distinct  impression  among  the  employees  at  Menlo 
351  Park  ? 

Objected  to  as  leading  and  as  clearly  and 
broadly  suggesting  the  answer  desired  of  the 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  did. 

Re-re-cross  bv  Mr.  Seymour  : 

Re-re-x.  Q.  lu.  Please  explain  how  the  exact  sci¬ 
entific  information  reposed  in  Mr.  Upton  on  and 
prior  to  his  arrival  at  Menlo  Park,  created  this  dis- 
352  lUllJance  or  <listinct  impression  among  the  Menlo 
Park  employees  on  the  date  of  his  arrival  ? 

A.  Mr.  Upton  had  frequently  been  at  Menlo  Park 
previous  to  his  permanently  stopping  there. 

John  Kruesi. 

By  consent  the  taking  of  testimony  was  postponed 
to  Thursday,  November  10th,  1SS1,  at  same  time 
and  place. 

W.m.  H.  Meadowcroft, 

Notary  Public, 

N.  Y.  Co. 

is  R.  Upton 

Pursuant  to  adjournment,  the  taking  of  testi- 
iiiony  was  continued  on  Thursday,  November  10th, 
1SS1,  at  same  place,  same  parties  being  present. 

R’  a  witness  produced  in  behalf 

of  Mi.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  follows, 
in  answer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  George 
W.  Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison: 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 

A  Francis  R.  Upton;  age,  20;  residence,  Menlo 
1  ark,  N.  J. ;  occupation,  manufacturer  of  electric 
lamps.  ' 

Fdim  Haye/°U  rbeen  in  tl,e  employment  of  Mr. 
Edison,  and  if  so,,  from  what  time  to  what  time,  and 
.in  what  capacity? 

A  I  entered'  his  employ  November  15th,  ISIS, 
and  have  been  in  it  directly  up  to  January,  1SS1, 
and  indirectly  since  I  was  employed  as  a  mathema! 

•  3'i  fleaSL‘  sta*;e  'v*lat  y°U1,  education  and  train¬ 

ing  had  been  before  you  went  into  Mr.  Edison’s  em¬ 
ploy?  . 

A.  A  college  course  at  Bowdoin;  two  years  post 
graduate  Mudy  m  physics  at  John  C.  Greene’s 
scientific  school  at  Princeton;  and  one  year  in 
Berlin  under  Helmholtz,  working  in  the  physical 
laboratory  there. 

Q- A  When  you  went  into  the  employ  of  Mr. 
EJ„0",  o,.  the  15th  of  November,  1STS,  did  he  there¬ 
after  nnmediatcly  explain  to  you  his  system  of  elec¬ 
tric  lighting? 

A.  He  did. 

Q.  5  What  explanation,  if  any,  did  he  make  with 
regard  to  dynamo  electric  machines  and  the  most 
economical  and  efficient  modes  of  use  with  his  elec¬ 
tric  lights? 

Objected  to  as  leading. 

A.  He  intended  to  have  main  lines  leading  out 
from  stations  charged  with  a  constant  electro- 
motive  force.  He  also  recognized  that  this  could  be 

Francis  R.  Upton. 

SsT  (,one  only  by  regulating  the  field  of  force  on  the  ma¬ 
chines,  so  as  to  give  satisfactory  results. 

Q.  G.  What  do  you  mean  by  “  field  of  force”  in 
the  preceding  answer? 

A.  The  magnetic  influence  of  the  iron  forming  the 
cores  of  the  magnets  upon  the  armature. 

Q.  7.  How  did  he  propose  to'  accomplish  this 

A.  By  means  of  varying  the  strength  of  the  current 
flowing  through  the  wire  around  the  magnets. 

8S3  Q-  S.  How  did  ho  propose  to  vary  the  strength  of 
the  current? 

A.  By  inserting  resistance  in  the  line  of  the  mag¬ 

Q.  What  kind  of  resistance? 

A.  Metallic. 

Q.  10.  I  mean  in  regard  to  constancy. 

A.  One  that  could  be  varied  at  will;  adjustable. 

_Q-  n;_At  the  time  you  went  there,  November 
loth,  187S,  did  Mr.  Edison  have  any  dynamo  elcc- 
1!  s  trie  machines,  if  so,  state  of  what  general  character 

A.  There  was  a  large  Wallace  machine,  a  small 
Wallace  and  a  small  Weston  plating  machine. 

Q.  12.  Do.  yon  remember  what  became  of  the 
small  Wallace? 

A.  My  impression  is,  it  was  returned  to  Mr.  Wal¬ 
lace;  I  know  it  was  shipped  away  from  Menlo  Park. 

Q.  13.  Do  you  remember  about  what  time  that 
was,  that  it  was  shipped  away? 

G<  A.  December,  ’7S,  or  January,  ’7h. 

Q.  14.  Did  Mr.  Edison  have  a  Gramme  machine 
and  if  so,  at  what  time? 

A.  Yes;  hi  January,  ’70;  I  think. 

Q.  15.  How  soon  after  that  machine  was  received 
was  it  put  into  actual  use? 

A.  Very  shortly  after  it  was  received. 

Q.  1G.  What  means,  if  any,  were  employed  with 
that  machine  for  primarily  varying  the  strength  of 
the  current,  exciting  its  field  of  force  electro  mag- 

>  t  1  ether  by  an  adjustable  resistance  or  other- 
Objected  to  as  leading. 

A.  The  magnet  coils  were  arranged  so  that  the 
current  passing  through  them  could  be  varied  by 

means  of  adjustable  resistances.  } 

Q'.1S'  }  y°“  attention  to  the  exhibits  marked 

Edison  s  Exhibits  Nos.  2,  3  and  4.”  and  ask  if  y  ou 
recognize  them?  •’ 

A.  I  do. 

JM-  W1,oro  (lid  y°u  fil*t  see  them,  and  about 
"  aat  ‘lme>  as  near  as  you  can  remember? 

Vmln  P  T  -f-11  El,ison's  laboratory  at 

?87G  E^  iblt  v  °i  S*  ab0ut  th0  lstof  March, 
part  of  March,1 1870.  nm  *  n”fMIe  °''  Iatter 
Q.  20  Were  these  put  in  use  with  a  dynamo  elec- 
iic  machine;  if  so,  when;  in  what  machine,  and  in 
nhat  manner,  and  for  what  purpose? 

Objected  to  as  leading. 

machine  at  the  laboratory,  and'otta-  macMne"! ™ 

re  ;ss, ::rs' 

Q.  SJ  What  mean,,  if  any,  employe, 1  ton  ad- 

justing  the  resistance  at  that  time? 

n,;t,BraViiSei,'ti,lgplUgSbet'Veen  «“  'ending  posts 
Oil  top  of  the  boxes,  so  as  to  short  circuit  the  boxes 
and  also  by  means  of  wires  twisted  around  the 
binding  posts  or  inserted  in  the  binding  posts  to 
short  circuit  one  or  more  boxes  at  a  time;  plugs 
were  generally  used.  b 

S’  ,P!eaSe  examine  tlle  exhibits  marked  Edi¬ 
son  s  Exhibits  5,  G  and  7,  and  state  whether  or  not 
you  recognize  them,  and  if  so,  when  and  where  you 
first  saw  them,  and  what  use,  if  any,  was  made  of 

305  A.  I  recognize  them  as  part  of  the  apparatus  used 
at  the  laboratory  at  Menlo  Park  for  regulating  the 
current  flowing  around  the  magnets  of  the  machines 
used  for  producing  light.  The  upper  portion  of  the 
apparatus,  being  Exhibit  No.  5,  was  constructed 
earlier  than  the  rest.  I  think  that  was  made  some¬ 
where  about  September,  1S79.  Xos.  «  iUK|  7  were 
put  on  afterwards  for  convenience  a  few  weeks 

Q.  24.  What  was  the  convenience  referred  to  in 
ll.C  your  previous  answer  ? 

A.  A  galvanometer,  by  means  of  which  the 
strength  of  the  current  was  noted,  was  on  the  table 
-  immediately  under  the  table  on  which  the  resist¬ 
ances  and  Exhibit  No.  5  were  placed,  and  it  was 
found  convenient  to  turn  the  hand  of  Exhibit  Xo 
5  by  turning  the  wheel  Exhibit  No.  7  from  the  room 

Q.  25.  How  long  were  these  exhibits  kept  in 
position  and  used  at  Menlo  Park  in  the  manner  de- 
57  scribed  by  you  ? 

A.  They  were  in  position  up  to  within  a  few 
weeks  and  used  whenever  lighting  was  done  at  the 
Park  from  the  machines  in  the  laboratory. 

Q.  20.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  adjustable 
resistances  were  used  by  Mr.  Edison  for  regulating 
the  strength  of  the  current  of  the  field  of  force  mag¬ 
nets  prior  to  the  use  of  resistances  like  Edison’s 
Exhibit  No.  2? 

A.  Bobbins  of  wire  were  used  and  wire  strung  in 
IS  a  frame. 

Q.  27.  I  call  your  attention  to  the  issues  in  this 
interferences  printed  in  the  record  in  question  10  in 
the  testimony  of  Mr.  Edison,  and  ask  you  at  what 
point  of  time,  to  your  knowledge,  Mr.'  Edison  had 
clearly  in  mind  the  inventions  set  out  in  these  issues? 
Objected  to,  as  Mr.  Edison  only  is  compe- 
tent  to  testify  as  to  what  he  had  in  his  own 
mind,  and  the  witness  as  to  facts  coming 
within  his  personal  knowledge  while  at  Menlo 

A.  Judging  from  conversations  that  I  had  with  sen 
him,  I  should  say  shortly  after  I  entered  his  employ 
Q.  -8.  Has  Mr.  Edison  to  your  knowledge  since 
that  time  used,  or  proposed  to  use,  in  connection 
with  dynamo-electric  machines,  any  system  other 
than  that  set  out  in  the  issues  of  this  interference. 

Objected  to  on  the  ground  that  it  has  not 
been  shown  that  the  witness  comprehends 
the  subject  matter  comprised  by  the  two 
issues  of  this  interference,  or  that  he  under¬ 
stands  the  scope  of  these  issues.  870 

A.  Though  other  systems  may  have  been  discuss¬ 
ed  and  experiments  tried  on  them,  the  system  in  the 
first  part  of  the  issue  has  always  been  considered  by 
Air.  Edison  the  best,  so  much  so  that  one  might 
almost  say  it  is  the  only  system  which  he  has  con¬ 
sidered.  The  second  issue,  his  practice  has  always 
been  to  use  the  means  there  described  for  regulating 
the  current  applied  to  the  magnets,  though  other 
methods  are  known  and  experiments  have  been 
tried  with  other  methods.  371 

Q.  29.  To  your  knowledge  how  constant  has 
been  the  use  by  Mr.  Edison  of  means  applicable  to 
these  issues  ? 

A.  Ever  since  the  resistance  coils  in  Edison’s  Ex¬ 
hibits  2  have  been  made  they  have  been  in  constant 
use  for  the  purposes  set  forth  in  this  issue  to  this 

Mi^  Gordon  on  behalf  of  Air.  Keith  adopts 
Air.  Seymour’s  cross-examination  of  all  the  873 
witnesses,  and  waives  the  further  cross-ex¬ 
amination  of  aiiy  witness. 

Cross-examination  bv  H:  A.  Seymour,  Counsel 
fob  Brush: 

Counsel  for  Brush  hero  introduces  in  evi¬ 
dence  certified  copy  of  the  specification  and 
drawing  of  the  application  of  Thomas  A 
Edison,  filed  Alay  31st,  1SS0,  for  Alagneto  or 
Dynamo-Electric  Alachines,  which  is  desig- 

Francis  R.  Upton. 

373  nnted  as  “Brush  Exhibit,  Edison  Applica¬ 
tion.”  1 1 

-x-Q.  30.  I  now  hand  you  “Brush  Exhibit,  Edi¬ 
son  Application,”  and  inform  you  that  this  is  a  true 
copy  of  Edison’s  application  in  this  interference 
and  on  which  the  issues  of  this  interference  are 
founded.  Please  examine  it  and  state  if  you  under¬ 
stand  it  ?  J 

A.  1  think  I  do. 

574  31'f  ?e  seco"<1  0,aim  of  application 

leads  as  follows  :  A  magneto  or  dynamo  elec- 
tuc  machine  constructed  or  combined  with  suitable 
device  for  primarily  varying  the  strength  of  the 
current  exciting  its  field  of  force  magnets.”  Re- 
erring  now  to  the  specification  and  drawings 
'  hat  <  o  you  understand  is  referred  to  by  the  words 
“suitable  device.”  ,os 

A  In  figure  1  the  combination  of  the  source  of 
electricity,  G,  with  the  resistances,  H,  which  bv 
75  thc  commutator,  K,  may  be  thrown  in  or 

out  of  the  circuit  of  which  the  wire  around  the  mag- 
i  ets/  fo  m  a  part.  In  figure  2  the  combination  of 
lie  resistances  H,  with  the  source  of  electricity,  F', 
together  with  the  means,  K,  by  which  more  or  less 
w.-m6  r°!!StanCe’  H’  may  bo  Put  in  circuit  with  the 
and  c'  1  t  ,C  lnasnets  of  the  machines,  F',  c,  c,  c,  c 

x-Q.  32.  In  other  words  the  “  suitable  device  ”  in 
question,  shown  in  figure  1  and  referred  to  in  that 
portion  of  the  specification  relating  to  this  figure 

Sri  ”  «*«*-*.- . 

usfd  af  rf  that  a"?,  S0urce  0f  electricity  may  be 
eXdting  the  ma^etS/of 

i  ■No'v’’  'n  **,e  drawing,  figure  2  which  re 

of  the°  sn6  dfi  nafW0  machine-  and  in  that  portion 
“suitaeh,ePTfl^n  referrin.g  to  this  figure,  the 
device  in  question  consists  of  the  dyn- 

Pi-ancis  R.  Upton. 

8>  *  and  adjust- 3 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  3».  How  does  the  third  claim  differ  from 
second.  Do  not  both  claims  refer  to  cSteiJ 

S  idTshing?]  SPfifiedn  in  yom' Iato  answers  for  ac- 
ccynplislnng  the  desired  results  ? 

A.  The  second  claim  seems  to  me  the  broader  of 
of  foX  n  K‘  St‘rgt'‘ 

means  of  regulating  the  field  of  force  • 

X-Q.  35.  The  words  “suitable  device  ”  in  the  sec 
netl”aimi’  “™Prehond  t)le  “field  of  force  mag- 
hh  d  i  afiJustaWe  resistance  ”  specified  in  the 
thud  claim,  do  they  not  ? 

A.  I  think  they  do. 

refeirtofL  ^,ei1  bnth  tlle  second  and  third  claims  37 

fere  ice  is  thnTr  “““f  do  tbey  "°t,  and  the  dif- 
reience  is  that  the  second  claim  refers  to  the  means 
necessary  to  accomplish  the  result,  while  only  a 

ifiedTi^he  tT-niTS  necessary  t0  tbat  end  are  spec¬ 
ified  111  the  third  claim.  Is  not  tins  correct? 

Objected  to  on  the  ground  that  the  witness 
is  not  testifying  as  an  expert  in  patent  mat¬ 
ters  and  tbat  tl  cl  the  1  e  tl  ; 
best  evidence  of  what  they  cover. 

Counsel  for  Brush  states  that  the  witness  3S° 
at  the  outset  qualified  in  a  manner  tending  to 
show  his  ability  to  testify  as  an  expert  in 
electrax.1  matters,  and  that  he  has  repeatedly 
testified  concerning  inventions  specified  in  the 
issues,  and  hence  must  have  undei-stood  or 
supposed  that  he  understood  the  scope  of  the 
issues,  and  if  he  can  comprehend  the  issues 
e  certainly  can  the  claims  in  question,  as 
they  are  nearly  of  the  same  language. 

Francis  R.  Upton. 

question  is  substantially  correct. 

x-Q.  37.  In  the  Edison  application,  do  you  find 
therein  shown,  described  or  suggested,  a  dynamo 
machine  adapted  to  excite  its  own  field  of  force 
magnets,  provided  with  a  device  for  regulating  the 
strength  of  its  field  of  force  magnets? 

A.  I  do. 

x-Q.  3S.  And  this  device  is  located  in  the  main 
circuit  of  the  machine,  is  it  not? 

8  A.  It  is  in  the  main  circuit  of  the  machine  so  far 
as  shown  in  the  drawing. 

x-Q.  39.  How  long  were  you  employed  exclusive¬ 
ly  as  mathematician  for  Mr.  Edison? 

A.  Till  January,  1881.  The  mathematics-  was 
largely  of  the  applied  sort. 

x-Q.  40.  Please  explain  your  particular  duties  in 
this  position? 

A.  My  first  duty  was  to  make  such  calculations 
as  Mr.  Edison  needed, if  it  were  in  my  power.  When 
I  there  were  no  calculations  to  he  made  I  employed 
my  time  as  he  thought  would  he  most  useful  to 

x-Q.  41.  You  have  stated  that  Mr.  Edison  ex¬ 
plained  to  you  his  systems  of  electric  lighting  and 
dynamo  electric  machines  when  you  first  entered 
his  employ.  How  many  dynamo  machines  did  he 
explain  to  you  at  that  time? 

A.  His  explanations  were  more  of  the  nature  of 
telling  the  use  he  had  proposed  making  of  a  dy¬ 
namo  electric  machine  than  desciiptions  of  par¬ 
ticular  machines,  for  I  had  a  chance  to  examine  the 
machines  themselves,  and  also  to  read  the  literature 
of  machines,  so  that  Ido  not  think  he  felt  called 
kno\  t0  ^‘Ve  ^  <*etal'S  t*'at  "’as  supposed  to 

x-Q.  42.  Will  you  please  state  how  many  dy¬ 
namo  machines  were  at  Menlo  Park  when  you  en- 
tered  his  employ,  the  15th  of  November,  ’7S,  and 
‘I",  different  types  of  machines  then  in  practical 

Francis  R.'  Upton 

A.  There  was  at  or  about  that  time  a  large  Wal-  386 
lace  a  small  Wallace  and  a  Weston  machine. 
x-Q.  43.  Was  this  all? 

A.  There  was  a  large  number  of  small  magneto 
anu  experimental  machines  of  Mr.  Edison. 

x-Q.  44.  When  did  you  first  see  a  dynamo  ma¬ 
chine  of  Mr.  Edison’s  make  put  into  practical  opera¬ 
tion  and  having  combined  therewith  an  adjustable 
resistance  for  varying  the  strength  of  its  field  of 
force  magnets? 

is4i  T°  tIlG  ljC>St  °f  my  recol,ectl011  it:  was  in  March,  386 

A$,m!r°my°a"ar  l“  “  "»  »»»  <° 

A.  Not  without  going  over  the  records. 
x-Q  40.  With  this  machine,  what  construction  of 
adjustable  resistance  was  used? 

A.  The  resistance  hexes  shown  in  Exhibits*’  3 
and  4  were  used. 

x-Q.  47.  Were  they  located  in  a  circuit  of  a  bat¬ 
tery,  including  the  field  of  force  magnets?  S87 

,  i\,ThV'  "  ere  C0UP]e(1  as  is  represented  in  figure 
n'Vo^r112  °f  ‘he  application  in  interference, 
i  „  fS'  That  is  the  field  of  force.'was  excited  bv  a 

A.  I  think  both  batteries  and  dynamo  machines 
were  used. 

x-Q.  49.  When  did  you  first  see  the  Gramme  ma¬ 
chine  operated  m  connection  with  a  variable  resis¬ 
tance  for  regulating  the  strength  of  the  main  cur 
rent?  '  m 

A.  In  March,  1S79. 

x-Q  50  Are  you  willing  to  swear  that  it  was 
prior  to  April,  1S79. 

A.  I  have  examined  the  records  of  the  laboratory 
to  April'7  datG  P<>intS  t0  the  feCt  that  h  was  prior 

the  record  Point  to  such  fact  ?  ' 

A.  The  date  of  Mr.  Jehl’s  coming  to  the  labora¬ 
tory  fixes  the  time  that  the  resistances  were  being 
made,  as  the  first  week  in  March,  and  my  recoiled- 

OS  _  Francis  R.  Upton. 

889  tion  is  that  the}'  were  used  immediately  after  tile}' 
"'ere  finished  in  connection  with  the  machines,  and 
I  know  wo  were  in  a  great  hurry  to  finish  them. 

x-Q.  52.  Were  these  resistance  boxes  used  to  test 
the  machines?  If  so,  what  machines,  and  to  test 
them  for  what  purpose? 

A.  They  were  used  first  in  the  Gramme  machine 
and  then  on  Mr.  Edison’s  machines  to  test  their  ef¬ 

x-Q.  53.  And  how  did  you  test  their  efficiency  by 

890  the  use  of  these  resistance  boxes? 

A.  The  strength  of  the  current  around  the  mag¬ 
nets  was  varied  and  the  effects  noticed. 

x-Q.  54.  Why  did  tjie strength  of  the  current  vary, 
and  why  were  the  effects  noticed? 

A.  To  gain  information  regarding  the  efficiency  of 
the  machines. 

x-Q.  55.  What  do  you  mean  by  “  efficiency”? 

'A.  Their  power  to  convert  energy  of  motion  into 
electrical  energy,  taking  into  consideration  their 

891  mechanical  construction. 

x-Q.  50.  Then  the  resistance  boxes  were  used  to 
experiment  and  determine  the  strength  of  current 
that  could  be  produced  by  the  machine,  were  they? 
A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  57.  When  did  you  first  see  either  of  the  Wal¬ 
lace  machinesand  an  adjustable  resistance  connected 
therewith  in  operation?  I  mean  to  regulato  the 
strength  of  the  field  of  force  magnets. 

A.  I  do  not  recollect  the  Wallace  machine  in 

892  connection  with  a  variable  resistance. 

x-Q.  5S.  When  did  you  first  see  the  Weston  ma¬ 
chine  in  operation  having  a  variable  resistance  con¬ 
nected  therewith  for  regulating  the  strength  of  its 
field  of  force  magnets? 

A.  I  have  no  means  of  fixing  this  date  as  we  used 
simply  a  length  of  wire  when  we  tried  this  machine 
in  this  manner. 

rily'did  ff?Th,S  niaehlne  did  "0t  °l,erate  satisfacto- 
A.  It  was  of  too  low  electro-motive  force  to  be  of 

Francis  R.  Upton.  9U 

Kami’  th°Ugh  thG  princiPle  demonstrated  393 

x-Q.  GO.  Was  it  of  any  practical  use? 
fn.A\  •  f0r  plating-  heating  reds  of  carbon,  and 
foi  experimental  purposes.  The  same  machine  is 
now  m  use  for  magnetizing. 

cal'', Si,  fl.  n 1110011  WaS  lt;  found  to  he  of  any  practi- 
cal  use  foi  the  purposes  desired  by  Mr.  Edison? 

liirhiinp-’V  a  <  US,rab!e  mac,,ine  for  incandescent 
v  O  fir  we  require  a  high  tension  machine, 
enmlov  hof'T1  tlme  ym  mteml  Mr.  Edison’s  394 
hn i  k  n  J  ?  i°"S  "'?ro  Val'ions  ti’l,es  of  electric 

amps  used  and  expernnented  with  that  were  each 
provided  with  devices  for  regulating  the  flow  of  the 
current  to  their  carbons  or  burners? 

bemi'  made*  "’,thm  th'eU  lllontlls  such  devices  have 
x-Q.  03.  And  up  to  the  summer  of  1S79  all  of  the 
lamps  were  provided  with  independent  devices  for  iting  the  flow  of  current  to  their  carbons  or  ' 
burners,  were  they  not?  395 

A.  By  no  means.  We  were  experimenting  on 
devices  and  using  lamps  without  them. 

Jrcmentta  tjldngrf  further  testimony  was 
postponed  to  Friday,  November  lltli,  1SS1,  at  10 
o  clock  A.  j\i.,  at  same  place. 

W.M.  H.  Meadowcrokt, 

Notaiy  Public, 

New  York  Co. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment,  the  taking  of  testimony  ' 
was  continued  on  Friday,  November  nth,  18S1- 

K„™’  in  P®**®;  Richard  n. 

SSJteT'  “a  "• s™- » 

x-Q.  64.  Have  you  made  quite  a  careful  research 
and  investigation  of  the  prior  state  of  the  art  to 
ascertain  the  character  of  devices  and  instruments 


Francis  E.  Upton. 

307  employed  for  the  application  of  electricity  to  prac¬ 
tical  purposes. 

A.  I  made  a  careful  research  concerning  electric 
lamps  and  read  the  current  literature  concerning 
dynamo  machines. 

x-Q.  05.  You  found  that  adjustable  metallic  re¬ 
sistances  were  very  old  and  well  known  devices  for 
testing  the  strength  of  an  electric  current,  did  you 

A.  Yes. 

39S  x-Q-  «*"»-  And  you  also  found  that  adjustable 
metallic  resistances  were  very  old  and  well  known 
devices  for  regulating  the  strength  of  the  current, 
did  you  not? 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  07.  And  you  found  that  adjustable  metallic- 
resistances  for  the  purposes  above  stated  were  old 
and  well  known  long  prior  to  1870,  did  you  not? 

A.  Yes. 

x  Q.  OS.  From  your  knowledge  of  the  state  of  the 

399  art,  prior  to  your  entering  Mr.  Edison’s  employ,  if 
you  had  desired  to  regulate  or  test  the  strength  of 
an  electric  current,  you  would  have  employed  an 
adjustable  metallic  resistance  for  that  purpose, 
would  you  not? 

A.  In  manj-  instances. 

x-Q.  09.  And  in  so  doing  you  would  have  consid¬ 
ered  that  you  had  simply  employed  a  well  known 
device  for  a  well  known  purpose,  would  you  not? 

A.  The  device  would  have  been  old,  the  pur- 

400  pose  new  or  old,  according  to  the  occasion. 

x-Q.  70.  If  the  purpose  had  been  to  regulate  or 
test  the  strength  of  the  current,  it  would  have  been 
an  old  and  well  known  purpose,  would  it  not? 

A.  By  no  means. 

x-Q.  71.  Why  not? 

A.  For  example,  if  a  new  method  of  testing  elec¬ 
tromotive  force  of  batteries  were  devised,  adjust¬ 
able  metallic  resistances  would  have  been  used  in  all 
probability,  while  the  combinations  would  be  new, 
as  in  electricity  three  factors  alone  enter  into  all  ex¬ 

Francis  E.  Upton. 


pertinents.  These  factois  are  electro-motive  force,  401 
current  and  resistance.  And  as  the  latter  is  gen! 
era  lym  a  metallic  form,  nearly  every  experiment 
lupines  its  use.  The  novelty  of  its  use  would  de- 
pend  entirely  upon  the  experiment  tried  and  the 
foim  111^  which  the  resistance  is  made. 

(,X'Q't77.1You1  seem  to  misunderstand  my  ones- 
eZ’  ^  ^  w“h  t0  imP'y  that  at  the  time  you 
entered  Mr.  Edison  s  employ  the  door  to  further  dis¬ 
coveries  111  electrical  science  had  been  closed,  but  de¬ 
sire  to  know  this:  If  at  the  time  stated  that  you  had  40 0 
employed  an  adjustable  resistance  to  regulate  or  test 
the  strength  of  an  electric  current,  you  would  have 
simply  resorted  to  a  well  known  device  for  this  pm-! 
pose  winch  had  been  in  use  for  a  period  of  many 
}  eais  prior  to  this  time.  J 

new  YeS;  bufc  tlle  fo,'m  of  resistance  used  could  be 

x-Q.  73.  In  your  investigations  you  found  that 
long  prior  to  your  entering  Mr.  Edison’s  employ  it 
was  very  old  and  well  known  to  employ  an  adjust-  403 
able  resistance  in  an  electric  circuit  including  an 
electro-magnet,  one  or  more,  did  you  not? 

A.  Yes. 

n,Xf  Q;. 74',  A!U!  y0U  ast'ertained  to  your  satisfaction 
tiiat  tins  had  been  done  long  prior  to  1870,  did  you 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  i  y.  And  in  such  case  the  strength  of  the 
electro-magnet  was  varied  by  regulating  the  adjust- 
ment  ot  the  variable  resistance,  was  it  not?  ,0 , 

A.  I  here  must  have  been  many  instances  where 
such  was  the  case. 

x-Q.  76.  Long  prior  to  your  entering  Mr.  Edison's 
emplo}  adjustable  resistances  consisting  of  wire 
wound  about  a  spool  had  been  used,  bad  they  not? 

A.  les.  J 

x-Q.  70.  And  such  forms  of  adjustable  resistances 
had  been  known  for  a  great  many  yeai-s  as  suit¬ 
able  devices  in  regulating  or  testing  the  strength  of 
an  e.ectnc  current,  had  they  not? 


Francis  R.  Upton. 


A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  77.  What  construction  of  adjustable  resist¬ 
ance  was  first  used  in  connection  with  the  Gramme 
machine,  which  you  have  referred  to  in  the  testi¬ 

A.  I  think  flattened  copper  wires  strung  on  a 
frame  lengthwise  between  the  two  sides. 

x-Q.  7S.  For  what  purpose  was  tin's  adjustable 
resistance  used? 

A.  For  regulating  the  strength  of  the  current 
from  the  riiachine. 

H-x-Q.  71).  How  was  it  used?  In  the  circuit  of  a 

A.  I  cannot  say  whether  this  particular  form  was 
used  with  a  battery. 

x-Q.  SO.  Was  it  used  to  regulate  and  control  the 
strength  of  the  current  of  the  main  circuit,  or  to 
test  the  efficiency  or  capacity  of  the  machine? 

A.  I  cannot  say  regarding  this  particular  form  of 

x-Q.  SI.  Do  you  remember  that  the  form  of  re¬ 
sistance  you  have  referred  to  was  discarded  because 
the  wires  burned  out? 

A.  That  was  probably  the  reason,  and  also  that 
we  made  better  forms  afterwards. 

x-Q.  S2.  When  did  you  first  see  an  adjustable  re- 
sistgnce  substantially  like  either  one  shown  in  Edi¬ 
son’s  application  used  in  connection  with  a  dvnaino- 

A.  In  March, 1S79, though  there  may  have  been  one 
of  Mr.  Edison’s  machines  tested  in  February  in  this 
way  as  I  find  dates  in  the  note  hooks  about  the  fiist 
of  March  and  the  latter  part  of  February. 

x-Q.  83.  In  the  apparatus  you  refer  to  as  having 
seen  in  March,  1870,  how  many  of  the  resistance 
boxes  were  used  at  one  time  in  connection  with  the 

A  Our  custom  was  to  place  a  large  number  of 
the  boxes  in  the  circuit  we  were  experimenting  on, 
and  so  as  to  have  them  ready  for  any  adjustment 

:is  R.  Upton. 

that  we  might  wish  to  make,  for  by  nuttimr  in 
plug  any  box  could  be  made  idle.  “  P  S  m 
x-Q.  SI.  They  were  used,  then,  in  order  to  secure 
such  strength  of  current  as  might  be  desired  for  the 
paiticular  experiment  in  hand,  were  they? 

A.  Gertainly;  either  directly  or  indirectly? 
x-Q.  8a.  Were  they  located  in  a  circuit  of  a  bat- 
tery  including  the  field  of  force  magnets  of  a  ma- 
me,  oi  m  the  main  circuit  of  one  machine  in 
eluding  the  field  magnets  of  another  machine? 
otlter.  "  ,l?S  i,10l,e  Wa-Vaml  sometimes  in  the  il0 

x-Q  SO.  Were  they  used  in  any  other  way  at  the 
tune  stated,  except  the  two  methods  referred  to  by 

A.  In  all  probability  they  were,  as  Mr  Edison 
nations'1"^’  hlS  USUal  man,,er»  val''°"s  combi- 

9'  87,' 1  ?°.not  care  t0  know  about  probabilities, 
but  simply  desire  your  testimony  concerning  facts 

the  on  yt°Ur  peus°!lal  knowletlSe-  Please  answer  in 
the  question  with  this  understanding.  11 

have ‘°  make  further  search,  before 
fixing  the  date  of  other  uses  as  positively  as  I  have 
fixed  the  date  of  the  two  mentioned,  for  I  recollect 
he  two  firet  distinctly,  end  know  that  other  IS 
"aft"??  at,tll<3  Si,meti,ne  O'' shortly  after. 

Xo' s  “  «*«*■ 

A.  I  took  the  exhibit  to  be  a  specimen  of  a  num- 
v  n  ^  "'hich  as  a  "’hole,  were  adjustable.  a9 
x-Q.  SJ  Long  pnor  to  your  entering  Mr.  Edi- 
eon  s  employ,  it  was  old  to  excite  the  field  of  force 
magnets  of  one  dynamo  machine  by  means  of 
another  dynamo  machine,  was  it  not  ? 

A.  It  was  to  excite  the  field  of  one  dynamo  by  a 
magneto  machine,  as  for  instance,  in  the  Wilde 
machine.  I  do  not  recollect  any  dynamo,  though 
it  was  ™63  "’  G  f°UUd  fl‘°ni  the  text  books  whether 
x-Q.  Oi).  And  it  was  old  prior  to  your  entering 

lying  tl,c  Strength  Of  the  mZnt  by  v“‘ 

separate  magneto  nnch.V  I)ro,1"cu'1  bv  a 

name,  was  it  not  ?  "C  COn,,octe<1  wWi  the  ,iy- 

been  done  recently.  L'l'SLS  "  'or<i  it  has 

™V!o<?oth!°  M,<Sl,vai" tha  fiict  it 

able  to  fix  upon  -un  ,  Sl  3°"  a,'°  :lfc  I**»nt  un- 


ence  to  publications  ,.r  i  .  11,18  ‘lu«»Hpn  hv  refer- 
Of  dates.  Uus  has  *»«»>  done,  hut  not 

xti'i Tusel™  di''  -VO"  antK0  Kl,i«°'i'«  Exhibit 
"bout &S^w““tolVnft0r  ,-t  Wns 

««  ^It^vastseV'rejn,;;;?  fi"3'  ? 

P,'tUP  14  w™  “«*! 

416  cuit  of  the  field.  Ifte  "f,  fielJ-  in  the  cir- 

rect  circuit  of  one  machine  iv-^S  ',Se(1  ,n  tho  «- 

°i'  more  magneto  mn,.i  •  ’  oxcl,lnff  tho  field  of  one 
meiit We  Preferred,  for  the' re  Thf,  ,atter  nrrange- 
pireuit  was  independent of T?0"-' the 
influenced  by  any  fluct  .atio  !! "m  CWCuit’  nnd  •«* 

though  with  care  used  !  ,  •  ''°  ma,n  circuit, 

manner  you  have  fi,st3d°eLSdSe<!  !*  "se(1  in  tl,e 

Francis  It.  Upton.  J05 

sS—es-s  - 


=§Ha s us 

poses?  electro-plating  or  other  pur- 

bc4onsaonly  S"'e'' thiS  qufl8t,'on  by  "**»(*  to  p„h- 

iigssssss  * 

A  I  know  that  this  has  been  done,  but  whether 

it  was  prior  or  since  the  time  stated,  I  cannoi  t  v 

wTi  on  PTSOnaIly>  1  never  saw  it  done.  3 
done  J  Asy°U  saJ’ ‘bat  you  know  it  has  been 
Hef  L?oewheaVeUSy°Utr-fbeSt  impressions  a"d  be- 
li  ve  °rn0tlt  Was  done  Prior  to  your 
enteimg  Mr.  Edison’s  employ?  ' 

•  A-  An  that  1  know  regarding  the  matter  outside 
of  Mr.  Edison's  laboratory  lias  been  gained  from 
books  and  periodicals;  I  do  not  recollect  at  this  mo- 
nent  any  such  use  prior  to  my  going  to  Menlo 
1  ark  winch  was  published  at  the  time. 

x-Q.  101.  In  your  testimony  have  you  considered 
that  the  fust  issue  comprises  devices  and  things  not 
comprised  by  the  second  issue! 

A  I  consider  that  the  fust  issue  is  the  broader  of 
the  tw  o  and  contains  the  second,  except  that  the 
secoiid  speaks  of  the  combination  with  one  or  more 
of  the  inducing  or  field  of  force  electro-magnets  of 
an  adjustable  resistance,  wliilo  in  the  first  issue 
other  devices  than  an  adjustable  lesistance  for 
prnnardy  varying  the  strength  of  the  current  ex- 
included0  0  d  °f  f01C°  ek‘ctl'°  nia«nots-'’  could  he 

thn„Q'ti102'  I1,.,yfn!r1t08ti,,,o,iy  'vllat  °ther  devices 
than  lie  adjustable  resistance,  have  you  had  in 
miml  that  you  consider  as  being  included  in  thofhst 

A.  For  example,  changing  the  speed  of  the  re- 
volvmg  armature,  changing  the  position  of  the 
blushes  may  lie  covered  in  the  fii-st  issue. 

x-Q.  103.  State  when  you  fiist  saw  at  Menlo  Park 
sSe  lStC“la,;<iTVenti10n  reful'ml  t0  in  tho  second  is- 
con'ibination  -fi"  **  dynamo-electric  machine,  the 
comb  mat  on  with  one  or  more*  of  its  inducing  or  field 

v.  Ir  r't,rni^etS  of  an  Stable  resistance, 
whereby  the  strength  of  the  current  applied  to  said 
nnngnets  may  be  determined  and  governed  and'va- 

A.  In  March,  ls7y. 

u^S  Wffl  you  avear  that  the  machine  was 
used  as  a  dynamo,  or  was  it  used  as  a  magneto? 

xO  o-  W11?  USed  “  a  dy»a»>o 

11  “  — 

siutlvI^«Stl,0G!'a"ln,0m!,chi,,u  a"d  it  was  used 
x-Q.t Wltv  U  l,atte,y  «t  times. 

s  t  le  adjustable  resistance  used  for 


the  purpose  of  testing  the  stremrtl, 
produced  by  the  machine.  f  G  CUnont  425 

x-Q.  1°-.  Question  repeated? 

A.  borne  of  the  time. 

machine  |°  USe  a  dynam° 

means  which  you  a  l  ?  the 

being  covered  by  thefirs^chmsp  nf  t!'*  t.estilnony  as 
A  Yes-  tl, use  of  the  issue.  126 

-x-Q  m  L ?, °ld!"a!'y  so  en,ployed. 
devices  referred  to  in°the  fesue  hi  the 

of  vital  importance  to  Mr  ’  r  i  ,tIlls  mterference, 
trie  lighting?  '  Ed,Son  s  s3*sten,  of  elec 


A.  In  the  broadest  aspect  of  the  case,  yes. 

Cross-examination  ended. 

richard  s-  dyer>  , 128 


A.  Yes. 

Ee-d.  Q.  113.  Is  it  not 

' a  ta°t  that  the  Gramme  and 

John  F.  Ott. 

489  Weston  machines  which  you  have  testified  were 
used  with  the  devices  included  in  the  issues  of  this 
interference,  were  practical  working  machines  for  the 
purposes  for  which  they  were  built  and  not  experi¬ 
mental  machines? 

A.  They  were  and  were  used  as  such. 

Re  d.  Q.  ll+.  Were  not  such  machines  used  prac¬ 
tically  with  said  regulating  devices  for  regulating 
the  strength  of  the  current  generated,  for  the  pur¬ 
pose  of  testing  lamps  and  other  translating  devices' 

430  A.  They  were. 

Red.  Q.  115.  Do  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge 
that  the  subject  matter  in  controversy  was  used  by 
any  other  person  than  Mr.  Edison  before  you  enter¬ 
ed  his  employ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Fuancis  R.  Upto.w 

Joiix  F.  Ott,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf  of  -Mr 
Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  follows  in  an- 

431  swer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  Richard  \ 
Dyer,  of  counsel  for  Edison: 

Q.  1.  Please  state  your  name,  age,  residence  and 

A.  John  F.  Ott;  134  Prospect  street,  Newark; 
age  31;  occupation,  experimenting  for  T.  A.  Edison 
Q.  2.  State  when  you  entered  Sir.  Edison’s  employ 
and  m  what  capacity? 

A  Slay  the  Oth,  1STS;  I  was  employed  in  the 
machine  shop. 

432  3‘-  HaI?  ?'°U  been  employed  by  him  continu¬ 
ously  smce  that  time? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  4.  Were  you  acquainted  with  Sir.  Edison’s 
"™S  °,f  °l,.e,-atinS  regulating  dynamo  and 
maf  neto-electnc  machines  in  the  fall  and  winter  of 

Objected  to  as  the  witness  has  not  yet  testi- 
fied  that  Sir.  Edison  operated  and  regulated 
any  such  machines  at  the  time  stated 

J°lm  F.  Ott.  109 

»o  rejir'"'1 01 «»  "»chta„ 

A.  By  putting  in  variable  resistance  in  f;  , , 

acter  of  the  machine?  "  as  the  cl,al'- 

14  "T  S0,,,e  timo  in  tIle  fall  of  1ST8-  the  ma 
chine  used  was  a  Wallace  machine.  ’ 

falforStteId0n0tremembei’  in  the 

ri^l0atHMen!,nnpartei'  U,e  WalIae°  machine  ar-  43 
vaiied  hv  ”  v  ^  "'as  ,the  strength  of  its  field 

hr.=i  t  ^  adjustable  resistance, 'according  to  the 
best  of  your  recollection?  & 

threo  f  °fthe  beSt,  of  my  recollection  it  was  from 
three  to  four  weeks  after  its  arrival 

att°"tion  to  sketches  “  Edi- 

Objected  to  as  leading.  436 

A.  It  was  exactly  the  same 

2‘sx,"-  « 

cireu  ^  41,6  °ther’  With  triable  resistance  hi 
Figure  2  is  connected  with  a  variable  resistance  in 

John  F.  Ott. 

Kfl  the  circuit  of  both  field  magnets,  thereby  being  able 
to  'an  the  current  in  the  main  line. 

inUul  wjr  13  tl,G  ",mn,t  in  th°  main  Iino  varied 

A.  By  throwing  in  or  out  resistance,  as  mav  be 
required  in  the  oireuft  of  the  field  magnet, 
fn,  n-  •  °l,P°rtu,lities  IiaJ  you  at  that  time 
foi  obtaining  accurate  information  as  to  the  means 

enjoyed  for  ‘’ogulating  this  Wallace  machine? 

A  By  being  employed  by  T.  A.  Edison  and  helm 
S8  nS  Jlln»  to  sot  up  the  machine,  and  winding  the 
resistance  spools  and  hoards  and  boxes  a^tpL 
mig^be  called  to  be  put  in  the  circuit  of  ihe  thdf, 

Q.  14.  What  was  the  construction  of  the  resist- 
at'that'tiino.0  fiL‘ld  °f  tho  Wa"a<* 

it  tdwh,r  atiflat  b°a,d’  havi"B  nails  driven  into 
.  '  l , S  thu  "110  1,ack  al‘d  forth;  the  other 

anothefone  “  Wllrat«t°ne rheostat;  there' wa's 
same  shape  nflj  o  ’  W°"nd  "ith  wile>  Ulu 

ofQthe  "  aS  ‘‘I®  resistancu  val’ied  in  the  cases 

of  the  firet  two  constructions  described  by  you? 

a  i? ft”? in  31111 0,,t  with  WswS. 


A  gramme  machine,  a  few  days  after  he  io 
O  ts-  Canramn,e  ™neI,in®.  as  1 1  emeniber. 

Gramme  macbbT  n<>  Stat°  ab°llt  "'hat  time  this 


4»».d7I" s'S,;'“i  « *»  »» 

Objected  to  as  leading. 

John  F.  Ott. 

A.  I  couldn’t  say.  . 

Q.  SO.  Do  you  recollect  the  year?  441 

A‘  1  es;  it  was  m  1ST9. 

A  Ic  an!"’  wIlafc  senson  of  the  year? 

Q.'  22  wlnt  wa^?  VVhen  14  "’aS  re<*ived. 
emjil^ed  with  the  Oram'ne  mad.hfe ^  reSiStani:e 

o‘  oql,Cp,aS  Ex,n,)its  2,  3  and  4. 

recognize  them,  and  if  so  when  and  wife.  °l  "°4  Jou 
saw  them,  and  what  ??  d  hero  you  first  448 
them?  If  an-v'  "'as  made  of 

nroVo??  5,^7^.  ,S7fl’  a«d  they 

field!  ^  incieasins"  al]d  d ecrea s'dig" t  he' Electric 

1S7!1?2+  H°"'  d°y0Ufl*  this  date  as  November, 

bAt  ESiSh0rt'ybef0re  the  -'d'dtion  given  “ 

?'  2Tf\^° 'u  13t  LT'!ll)ltion  do  you  refer? 

O  op  ff  !G  ?xlnbltl'011  of  his  new  light 
0  20.  At  what  time? 

A.  It  was  given  between  the  holidays  in  1S79 
Q-  - 1 .  Do  you  recollect  that  you  saw  « he  r  ‘ 
machine  used  with  the  v  u-Hhle  rf  ,  1  Grainme 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  did.  444 

A.  As  tUTr  l0ng  b<3f01'ei  sbould  y°u  lodge? 
months?  1  0311  re,nerabei'  a‘  least  tTvo 

Q.  2h.  With  what  machine  or  machines  • 

I  believe  firs^Th^  ",th  4be  Gramme  machine, 

“•  ....  dS  sts,]°  “i.v^ 


445  B^;  consent  the  taking  of  fm-tlm,.  * 

Wiuxvm  II.  IftABowcRorr, 

Notary  Public, 

Y.  Co. 

Ckoss-exami.vatio.v  nv  h  \  <a„ 

COUNSEL  FOItBltUSlI:'  ‘  ’  &  L'K’  Kfi«"  l,F 
X\Q\r°n  What  'S  -vonr  trade? 
maker.  TlwtW^  instrument 

SOf^‘!;,°5-2ia  323"  y°"  °',ter  Mr‘  Kdi' 

A-  As  a  machinist  and  in  ti,„  i  i 

3*J  “S  “ 

Charles  B.  Hams.  lu  to>'  Phonograph  for 

Jiff  any  eonsist  •»  mak- 

Edison,  or  had  you  ffo„eM?„t  ,  S°1',,0,'ed  b-v  Mr. 
feet  the  phonograph  °Mlor's  to  So  on  and  per- 

in  controTOrei-?8  beai  lng  lII,on  the  issue 
448  x  nI.!,o“<1  gene|,al  orders. 

A '.  By  k?Ei°rtlTS  ,°f  ,vllat  hind? 

fe““ 1  •-»* 

»“"«■  «'t£npi,”rgS  “s;s“l »  » 
were  you  next  engaged  hpand  What  daSS  o£ 

-til  September, 

hated  m  making  electric  lamps. 

laboStmyf 1  S01,te",ber>  1S7S>  did  ^n  work  in  the  448 
shop. 1  "'°‘'ked  b°tb  in  the  laboratory  and  machine 

machines  were  at  Menlo  Park’’  3  dynamo 

ofthem<;OUldn’t  0XaCt,y  teU’  as  there  were  so  many 

.  wore^i,sed>Imean  i,mc£,'cai  operative  macliines  that 
iQ^Sidol,^,'Vitb  nTW  Iess  '‘esnlts. 

results”?  °  30U  mam  hy  “more  or  less 

x-QS4i  1°Wg]InS  °5  a  htighei'  efficiency  than  others. 

dynlomimli^m^r  “  t*“* 

nutto  1  Sai<1  bef°lt5’  1  C°uWn’t  state  the  exact 

ISIS?  t  le  month  of  September, 

;Vistn'eC!.d'Vastllc  Wallace. 

*‘Q- 43-  Question  repeated. 

"A!!.*';,'11'"**  1 


of  each  type?  g  ’  and  how  many 

■  “?■ r,m„z';r  °f  « ■«« 
■.wlzr'''"  •»  «.». 

A.  Two.  ’ 

)n,gu  amI  small. 

54  “punted  ^r,'  ,^-f  *  110  '3T)e and 

otliei-  types  used  in  Sontemlm,'’  ,*  L*fnso  ‘^“Sfiilio  the 
.  A.  I  think  the  otlipr'nindhdno^f.'.f’  Park? 

balance  wore  exIwrfn,ontJ  “  ^a'Vwton-  T,le 
Edison.  01 1,11  machines  made  b\- 

‘••l-ines  constituted  S, 2,, !he  E<lison  t-vP°  of  ma- 
A.  That  number  I  ,  Ju, T  y°"  S‘>D  ak  of? 
x-0  v,  c  '  1  cou,du’t  state  oxactlv 

‘only  did  they,  nl!0tImttSlef>'P0  °1,0,*ale'! 


time?  30U  0,10  of  lib  assistants  at  the 

I  acted  as  an 

tlmt  time,  and  did  Viwud  in  Vi  ““  assis,ant 
A.  I  did.  3  1 111  s,,cl>  capacity? 

assistants'  whetE,.^1'  ; ?  JFf;  E<Iisa»  and  in's 
ohmes  worked  satisfaetodl  °  f  I ‘SOn  tyi>0  of  »«• 


-'onunon  witl“V00SEUnt.  f°r  tIle  fa=t  that  in  I 

^^naeeand^l:  /  k  . 

C  l,i"ts  operated,  hut  did 

John  F.  Ott. 

time?n°'V  hOW  the  Edlson  machines  operated  at  that 
tjie other assistantf tl^To VeVdmoenlld  l"'"' 

*•  ”  7  “  t 

tile  ^  In  tIlR  fal1  0f  7S  alul  spring  of  ’7!)  were 

.nain  cuSf5 3U<1  atf^a,°Pa>'k  forgeneraii.^the 

or  niagneto-electric  machines^8' 

known1' byE  ’,'ntnf  °fU'°Ct‘'ic  niathi»es, generally  t58 

fom  f  J,  dir  madnE"at°r’  t0 


”■«>  <»  «-  - 

x-Q.  59.  Question  repeated 

-^SKl'SSSSS*”  °'"y“ '»  “9 

sst  s“r*  S' ~ 

. ,;X'r  b.L  Weve  they  used  to  regulate  the  field  of 
iJr8”61  in  order  t0  Produce  any  desired* 

A.  Aot  that  I  know  of. 

“•  f  *  What  time  did  vou  Ant  see  in  use  at 
hke  he  form  d  resistance  substantially 

6  the  form  shown  m  Figures  1  and  2  of  Edison’s 

John  F.  Ott. 

. . 

"» *«  o';“4'  Hzzir of  ll“  '■» «'  •« .» 

JS7S you'snvf’i’*?-  ■",?l”to  &'ly  that  in  tlio  f;1|l  of 
commutator,  ««  show!f ,,,ovi(>o<l  with  a 
principled  0xactly  the  same^as  there,  hut  on  that 

hat  to  matters  of  ; ] Lo ^ r’ '' 1 " C1 1 > 1 0  °f  operation, 
variable*  resistances.  \Vhh  n  /‘  ,co,,stn,cti'>'>  of 
vourpart,  I  repeat  n,v  fo  '  ““dental, ding  on 

-A.  I  did  see  it.  '  01  'l“cstion. 

?uch  !l  form  L'tTy' 'iSliff  S"™  CO,lnou<e'*  up  in 
known  as  “  plug  sw-ltvh  *>  H,P  gS’.  0r  as  «e,1erally 
varied.  tUl>  tho  resistance  could  he 

last  described  is  hke  tlfat'shown  hw F r"®0  y°"  llav,‘ 

Ao-  2.  is  it  not?  "  ln  Epson’s  Exhibit 

“  EilJnritfcT  net  '7,ci',)e>  won  the  spool 
different  forms.  distances  were  wound  in 

KTS ?i,.??Vou°fi wf^-'thisfo.'t  "‘fS  th°  fa"  of 
ance?  **"  til,s  f°rm  of  variable  resist- 

Charles  B.HaJis!'011  my  experiments  for 

4^ ZVisk  or  tho  first 

John  F.  Ott. 

magnet,  and  back  again  wliim.  ... 

ShoS1  t  ,Each  m 

centre  arm  ‘ .,t'‘^UgS  °!  thc  circular  rheotome,  the 
2ofthenminhnTbe,ng  ~ctwl  to  toother 
x-Q.71.  Were  Edison’s  Exhibits  C  and  7  used 
connection  with  Exhibit  6  at  that  time’  ’ 

A.  It  was;  the  long  rods  being  used  so  as  to 
the  resistance  as  fanu-»v  h0‘,bl° 

William  Thompson  ^l^imn^Is  it  "aid  hS 

an  influence  upon  its  deflection 

at^pS£SiUV,r been  »■«“•»*» 4W 

edge  of  it?  '  "',th0Ut  having  knowl- 

A.  It  could.;  yes, 

nlovod  pU  ,VTiabIe  reslstai,ces  first  e.n- 

SSiti arlt  l,um  “i  "”i  rvo  ,o  b< 

did  not;  they  got  extremely  warm 
tnf  74'  Bllt  "°  Particular  fault  was  found  with 
them  by  reason  of  their  burning  out  or  becoming  ±r- 
tQo  highly  heated;  is  that  what  you  mean?  %  4°‘ 

,  ‘n  !1frfai‘ lls  tlle  principle  was  concerned. 
tlmfMii“r,\°e  S,ayy0U  le  Ie  tleex!  bto  in 
l  ew  lfihtV  W,  bfTUSlS  was  tIle  exhibition  of  his 
"e"  bf  ’  Wllat  (1°  ^u  mean  by  “new  light?” 

AVr5J  *  ”®w  system  of  lighting  up. 
a  nM-  'Vllat ‘,oyou  '»ean  by  “  new  system  i" 

A.  Of  his  new  form  of  lamp. 

X'%‘7'  Wluit  was  th'e  new  form  of  lamp! 

A  Showing  that  the  sub-division  was  practical;  4(iS 
that  you  may  be  aide  to  throw  in  any  new  numbm’ 
in  the  fights11'0"1  shovving  “O'  Practical  difference 

x-Q.  78.  Do  you  mean  that  this  exhibition  was  to 
show  a  new  subdivision  of  the  current  for  old 
lamps,  or  to  show  an  old  subdivision  of  current  with 
now  amps,  or  was  it  to  show  a  new  subdivision  of 
the  current  with  new  lamps? 

A  It  was  the  old  subdivision  with  any  lamp— 
either  platinum  or  carbon. 

John  F.  Ott. 

1  x-Q.  70.  Then  what  was  there  new  exhibited 
that  time:  or,  in  other  words,  will  you  state  wh 
you  meant  by  “new  lamp." 

A.  What  I  meant  by  “  new  lamp  ”  was  the  su 

x-Q.  SO.  Well,  if  you  meant  “  new  subdivision 
instead  of  “  new  lamp,”  what  was  the  “  new  subd 
vision  ”  publicly  exhibited  at  that  time! 

A.  It  was  showing  variable  resistance  in  the  eft 
cuit  of  the  field  magnet. 

Cross-examination  ended. 

Rk-duikct  Examixatio.v  bv  Rich  a  mi  N.  Dyer,  o 
Counsel  fob  Edison: 

Re  d.  Q.  si.  Were  the  Wallace  and  Weston  mn 
chines  among  the  “experimental  machines  ”  referrei 
°  !n  ™ur  ans'ver  to  cross- interrogatory  45? 

A.  I  lie  Wallace  was. 

chine?  ^  ^  H°"  "ilS  tllis  i,u  «xperlmontal  mn 

that's  all"'nS  l,SC<1  nS  n"  oxporime,ltal  machine 

R-d.  Q.  S2.  The  machine  itself,  then,  was  not  an 
experimental  machine,  but  was  used  practically  to 
experiment  upon  lamps  and  other  devices? 

A.  Yes,  it  was. 

f-  in  this  practical  use  the  field 
a  v'ariable  resistance,  was  it  not, 

n  the  fall  of  1S7S 

Objected  to  as  highly  improper,  it  being 
sired”*5  a"d  C  eai1y  suKf=resting  the  answer  de- 

Wm.  H.  Meadowcroft, 
Notary  Public, 

City  and  County  of  New  York,  f  ss-: 

I,  William  II.  Meadowciiokt,  a  ]-„],li 
within  and  for  the  City  and  County  of  New  Yor 
and  State  of  New  York,  do  hereto- "certify  that  th 
foregoing  depositions  of  Thomas  "a.  Edison,  Z  I 
"Wilber,  Francis  Joint,  John  Krttusi  Francis  R  *n 
ton  and  John  F.  Ott  were  taken  on  behalf  of  Thotna 
A.  Edison,  in  pursuance  of  the  notices  hereunto  an 
Hexed,  before  me,  at  No.  C;i  Fifth  avenue,  in  tin 
City  of  New  York,  on  the  loth.  ISth  and  ltlth  dav 
of  October,  and  the  stli,  nth.  loth,  mb  and  12tl 
days  of  November,  1881;  that  each  of  the  said  wit 
nesses  was  by  me  duly  sworn  before  the  commence 
mentof  his  testimony;  that  the  testimonv  of  tin 
said  witnesses  was,  by  consent  of  all  parties. "writtei 
out  by  Henry  W.  Seely,  he  having  been  bv  me  first 
duly  sworn  to  record  the  same  faithfullv:  that  L. 
E.  Leggett,  Esq.,  and  II.  A.  Seymour.  Esq.,  repre¬ 
senting  the  opposing  party.  Brush,  and  N.  S.  Keith, 
the  other  opposing  person,  werepresentdur- 
ing  the  taking  of  said  testimony;  that  the  taking  of 
said  test  imony  was  commenced  at  the  place  and  time 
designated  in  said  notices  and  was  concluded  on  the 
12th  day  of  November,  1881:  and  that  I  am  not 
connected  by  blood  or  marriage  with  any  of  .said 
parties,  nor  interested,  directly  or  indirectly,  in  the 
matter  in  controversy. 

In  testimony  whereof.  I  have  set  my 
hand  and  official  seal  hereto  at  the 
City  of  New  York,  in  the  County 
[seal]  and  State  of  New  York,  this  14th 
day  of  November,  A.  D.  XSSI. 

W.m.  H.  Meadowcroft. 

Miscellaneous  Bound  Interferences 

This  bound  volume  contains  the  printed  record  from  four  patent  interferences 
and  one  civil  court  suit  for  the  period  1880-1885.  The  spine  is  stamped  "U.S. 
Patent  Office  Miscellaneous  Interferences  of  T.  A.  Edison." 

The  following  cases  comprise  this  volume: 

(1)  Mather  v.  Edison  v.  Scribner  (1883).  This  52-page  pamphlet  contains 
testimony  by  Edison,  John  F.  Ott,  and  other  associates  regarding  Edison's  work  on 
dynamos  between  1881  and  1882. 

(2)  Edison  v.  Lane  v.  Gray  v.  Rose  v.  Gilliland  (1882).  This  12-page  pamphlet 
contains  a  brief  filed  on  behalf  of  Edison  by  George  W.  Dyer  on  February  22,  1882 
in  two  related  interferences  involving  dynamos:  Edison  v.  Lane  v.  Gray  v.  Rose  v. 
Gilliland:  and  Edison  v.  Lane  v.  Gray  v.  Edison  &  Johnson. 

(3)  Edison  v.  Nicholson  (1880).  This  32-page  pamphlet  contains  testimony  and 
other  printed  records,  including  correspondence,  relating  to  conflicting  claims  over 
duplex  telegraph  patents.  Among  the  correspondents  are  Henry  C.  Nicholson  and 
Edison's  attorney,  Lemuel  W.  Serrell. 

W  Sawyer  and  Man  v.  Edison  (1881).  This  198-page  pamphlet  contains 
testimony  and  exhibits  on  behalf  of  Edison.  Most  of  the  record  from  this 
interference  (including  testimony  by  Edison,  Charles  Batchelor,  and  Francis  R. 
Upton)  was  later  entered  as  evidence  in  Edison  Electric  Light  Company  v.  United 
States  Electric  Lighting  Company  and  has  been  filmed  with  the  other  records  from 
that  case.  Both  the  interference  and  the  court  case  concern  Edison's  work  on  the 
incandescent  lamp  and  the  validity  of  his  U.S.  Patent  No.  223,898,  the  first  carbon 
filament  lamp  patent. 

(5)  Edison  Electric  Light  Company  v.  United  States  Electric  Lighting 
Company  (1885).  This  pamphlet  contains  the  8-page  bill  of  complaint  filed  by  the 
Edison  Electric  Light  Company  in  1885.  Included  also  are  13  pages  of  technical 
notes  and  drawings  by  Edison,  which  were  entered  as  exhibits  in  this  suit. 

Also  included  in  this  volume  are  the  records  of  several  telephone  inter¬ 
ferences  from  the  1880s.  These  have  been  published  in  Thomas  A.  Edison  Papers 
Microfilm  Edition.  Part  I.  11:  852.  on  Magneto-Electric  Machines. 

In  pursuance  of  the  annexed  notice  the  parties  to 
the  above-named  interference  attended  before  me 
this  3d  day  of  October,  1SS3,  as  follows:  George  P. 
Barton,  for  Scribner;  C.  L.  Burdett,  for  Mather; 
C.  E.  Scribner,  in  person;  and  Richard  N.  Dyer, 
for  Edison. 

John  F.  Ott,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf  of 
Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes  as  follows,  in 
answer  to  questions  proposed  by  Richard  N.  Dyer, 
counsel  for  Edison. 

1  Q.  What  is  your  name,  age,  residence  and  oc¬ 

A.  John  F.  Ott;  33;  IS  Gouvemeur  street,  New¬ 
ark;  employed  by  Mr.  Edison  making  experiments 
and  carrying  out  tests  from  sketches  furnished  by 
him  to  me. 

John  F.  Ott. 

5  2  Q.  Where  were  you  employed  and  in  what  ca¬ 

pacity  during  the  summer  of  the  year  1SS2? 

A.  At  the  laboratory,  Menlo  Park,  making  tests 
on  regulators  and  other  electrical  experiments' 

••1  Q.  Regulators  for  what  purpose? 

A.  Regulating  the  pressure  of  the  current  of  the 
loads"10  an<1  k°U,,inS  il  co,,8til,,t  Pressure  for  various 

ar4  ?'iV1!L“"  ,li(1  you  colnmenco  these  trials  at 
6  that  v  Pa''k  11,1,1  ll0"’  l0"K  di'1  tlloy  (luring 

A.  Somewhere  in  the  latter  part  of  Mav.  I 
think  they  wound  up  in  September. 

'V,1.'at  "'as  tho  (]ate  °f  your  going  to  Menlo 
I  .uk  for  tins  purpose? 

A.  If  I  recollect  proper,  it  was  the  9th  of  Mav  or 
.  very  close  to  it. 

Dld  ,t!l°  tl'ials  of  regulator  for  dynamo' 
elect!  ic  machines  commence  immediately  after  you 
went  there?  J 

S’” “a  “» »*»» 

A.  Mr.  T.  A.  Edison,  at  Menlo  Park;  bv  sketches 
8  he'madcf10  °Utli',eS  of  tlle  exPeriments  of  tho  test  to 

S  Q.  Did  any  of  the  regulators  for  dynamo  electric 
machines  which  you  tried  for  Mr.  Edison  a  t  nt 

Question  objected  to  as  leading. 

A.  It  did. 

John  F. 

9  Q.  Please  explain  the  regulators  tried  by  you  at  y 
that  time  which  involved  this  principle? 

A.  It  consisted  of  one  or  more  extra  brushes  fast¬ 
ened  upon  an  arm,  being  adjustable  either  with  the 
other  brushes  or  individually,  standing  about  light 
angles  to  the  other  brushes,  or  in  other  words,  right 
angles  to  the  neutral  line. 

10  Q.  What  where  tho  connections  of  the  field 
magnet  coils  in  the  regulator  you  have  described? 

A.  One  end  was  connected  to  one  of  the  extra 
brushes  and  the  other  to  one  of  the  brushes  leading  to 
to  the  main  line. 

11  Q.  How  many  extra  brushes  were  used  with 
tho  connections  that  you  have  just  described. 

A.  With  the  connections  just  described  there  was 
one  extra  brush  used. 

12  Q.  How  was  this  extra  brush  supported? 

A.  It  was  supported  on  a  wooden  block  fastened  to 
an  adjustable  arm  carrying  the  other  two  blushes; 
also  arranged  to  be  adjusted  with  itself  independent 
of  tho  other  brushes.  1 1 

13  Q.  When  thoextra  brush  was  arranged  to  be  ad¬ 
justed  independent  of  tho  main  brushes,  what  was 
the  construction  used  for  supporting  the  extra 

A.  It  was  a  wooden  block  fastened  to  the  adjust¬ 
able  arm,  having  a  curved  arm  coming  from  that 
holding  tho  other  brush  at  right  angles  or  as  near 
right  angles  as  the  circumstances  may  suit  to  tho 
other  brushes. 

14  Q.  How  was  tho  independent  adjustment  of  the  12 
extra  brush  effected? 

A.  By  loosening  up  two  screws  and  adjusting  it 
by  hand. 

15  Q.  What  was  adjusted  by  hand? 

A.  The  block  holding  the  extra  brush. 

10  Q.  Now  please  again  describe  how  that  block 
was  secured  so  that  it  would  be  adjusted  independent 
of  the  main  brushes? 

A.  The  block  having  a  piece  of  board  s-mewheres 
near  an  inch  thick,  cut  out  oblong  shape,  having  a 

13  hole  in  the  centre  of  it  admitting  the  shaft  and  the 
commutator  of  the  armature  through  it,  then  having 
two  slots  where  the  two  screws  went  through  fast¬ 
ening  it  to  the  adjustable  arm  carrying  the  other 
brushes  and  thou  on  this  wooden  block  being  fast¬ 
ened  b}r  a  small  ai  m  carrying  an  extra  brush. 

17  Q.  Now  explain  how  the  adjustment  of  this 
block  carrying  the  extra  brush  was  made  without 
adjusting  tiie  main  brushes. 

A.  It  was  made  by  loosening  two  screws  which 

14  went  into  the  regular  arm  carrying  the  other  two 
brushes,  then  shifting  it  by  hand  and  fastening  up 
these  two  screws  again. 

IS  Q.  Was  more  than  one  extra  brush  used  in 
any  of  these  regulators! 

A.  There  was. 

Ill  Q.  How  many! 

A.  Two. 



20  Q.  Please  describe  the  connections  of  the  coils 
of  the  field  magnet  when  two  extra  brushes  were 

A.  One  end  of  the  field  magnet  being  connected 
to  one  brush,  the  other  ond  to  the  other. 

21  Q.  What  brushes  do  you  refer  to! 

A.  Extra  brushes. 

22  Q.  How  were  the  two  extra  brushes  sun- 

ported?  * 

A!  On  an  extra  block,  as  1  previously  stated. 

23  Q.  Was  this  the  same  block? 

A.  The  same  block. 

ai  u  nai  nme  were  these  trials  made  of  reg¬ 
ulators  having  one  or  more  extra  brushes  adjustable 
by  hand,  independent  of  the  mam  brushes? 

A.  The  latter  part  of  May,  1882. 

25  Q.  Did  you,  after  that  time,  make  any  further 
trials  of  regulators  employing  this  principle? 

A.  I  did. 

20  Q.  What  were  they? 

A-  Several  devices  making  it  automatic. 

27  Q.  Please  explain  a  little  more  fully  what  you 
mean  by  making  it  automatic. 

John  F.  Ott.  5 

A.  What  I  mean  by  making  it  automatic  is,  that  17 
when  the  person  turning  off  one  or  more  lamps,  the 
pressure  being  varied  on  the  main  line,  would  be 
regulated  by  throwing  in  an  automatic  device,  shift¬ 
ing  the  third  brush  to  its  proper  place,  to  bring  the 
pressure  to  a  constant. 

2S  Q.  In  these  automatic  regulators,  what  was 
the  relation  between  the  extra  or  third  brush  and 
the  main  brushes— I  mean  the  mechanical  rela- 

A.  The  mechanical  relation  was  that  the  third  13 
brush  being  shifted  around  the  commutator,  there 
would  be  a  different  pressure,  of  course  throwing 
less  current  through  tho  field  magnet. 

20  Q.  Did  the  automatic  mechanism  for  shifting 
the  third  brush  have  any  mechanical  effect  upon 
the  main  commutator  brushes? 

A.  It  did  not. 

30  Q.  What  were  the  connections  of  the  field 

magnet  coils  in  this  automatic  third  brush  regu¬ 
lator?  19 

A.  They  were  the  same  as  with  the  hand  regula¬ 
tor,  the  only  difference  being  there  was  another 
connection  made  across  the  line  working  the  auto¬ 
matic  device  to  shift  this  third  brash. 

31  Q.  When  were  these  automatic  third  brash 
regulators  made? 

A.  In  the  beginning  of  Juno,  1882. 

32  Q.  What  use  was  made  of  these  automatic 
third  brush  regulatore  at  that  time? 

A.  They  were  used  to  regulate  a  set  of  lamps  20 
which  were  put  up  in  a  part  of  the  laboratory  com¬ 
monly  called  test  board  with  us,  and  also  regulating 
the  lamps  in  Mr.  Edison’s  house. 

33  Q.  How  were  the  test  board  lamps  and  the 
lamps  at  Mr.  Edison’s  house  supplied  with  current. 

I  mean  what  source  of  electric  energy  was  employed 
to  supply  these  lamps? 

A.  The  dynamo  current. 

34  Q.  What  did  the  automatic  regulator  have  to 

John  F.  Ott. 

do  with  that  dynamo  current.  Where  was  it  lo¬ 

A.  In  the  dynamo  room  hack  of  the  workshop. 

35  Q.  You  have  stated  that  ' these  lamps  wore 
regulated  hy  this  automatic  regulator.  Now  I  want 
to  know  how  that  automatic  regulator  was  placed— 
how  it  regulated  these  lamps;  that  is,  what  the  re¬ 
lation  was  between  that  automatic  regulator  and  the 
source  of  supply  for  the  lamps? 

A.  The  lamps  were  fed  by  the  current  from  the 
main  line,  while  the  field  being  fed  from  one  end  of 
the  main  lino  to  the  third  brush. 

30  Q.  I  now  call  your  attention  to  a  patent  grant¬ 
ed  to  T.  A.  Edison  for  regulators  for  dynamo  elec¬ 
tric  machines,  dated  March  Oth,  1SS3,  No.  273, 4S7, 
a  copy  of  which  is  now  handed  you.  Do  you  under¬ 
stand  the  regulator  illustrated  in  the  drawing  of  that 

A.  I  do;  it  being  a  third  brush  regulator  involving 
the  same  principle  as  that  used  hy  me  at  Menlo 
Park,  in  the  latter  part  of  May,  ISS2. 

37  Q.  In  what  essential  respect  does  the  auto¬ 
matic  mechanism  shown  in  this  patent  differ  front 
those  you  employed  at  Menlo  Park  at  the  time  you 
refer  to? 

A.  The  difference  being  the  brush  boingshifted  by 
gearing  device  in  place  of  a  worm  wheel. 

A  printed  copy  of  the  patent  referred  to  is 
P»t  in  evidence  and  marked  Edison’s  Exhibit 

Counsel  for  Edison,  Mather,  and  Scribner 
stipulate  to  admit  printed  copies  of  patents  in 
evidence  to  have  the  same  force  and  effect  as 
if  duly  certified. 

Cross-examination  by  George  P.  Barton,  At¬ 
torney  for  Scribner. 

38  x-Q.  Are  you  the  John  F.  Ott  who  testified 
in  behalf  of  Mr.  Edison  in  his  interference  with 

John  F.  Ott. 

Elisha  Gray  and  others,  relating  to  automatic  shunts  25 
for  cutting  out  the  generator  of  telephone  call 

Objected  to  as  immaterial  and  incompetent. 

A.  I  never  remember  being  on  such  a  case  as 

39  x-Q.  You  have  frequently  testified  for  Mr. 
Edison,  have  you  not,  during  the  last  two  years? 


Same  objection. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

40  x-Q.  Do  you  remember  that  I  once  cross-ex¬ 
amined  you  at  Menlo  Park? 

Same  objection. 

A.  I  have  forgotten  all  about  it,  I  assure  you. 

41  x-Q.  Do  you  remember  a  device  made  by  Edi.  07 
son  for  use  upon  American  District  wires,  and  which 
was  removed  from  Ward  street  to  Menlo  Park? 

Same  objection. 

A.  Ido. 

42  x-Q.  You  remember  giving  testimony  about 
that  that  device,  do  you  not? 

Same  objection.  og 

A.  I  have  forgotten  all  about  it. 

43  x-Q.  Do  you  remember  the  device  I  refer  to? 

Same  objection. 

A.  I  suppose  it  is  the  chemical  paper  device  being 
the  drop  of  segment. 

44  x-Q.  Mr.  Ott,  there  was  a  magneto  district  sig¬ 
nal  box.  It  had  a  handle  which  stuck  out  from  the 

John  I.  Ott. 

29  case.  It  was  run  by  clockwork.  Do  you  remembei 
giving  testimony  about  such  a  device' 

A.  Yes,  I  have  a  faint  recollection  of  giving  t( 
mony  at  that  time. 

15  x-Q.  IV hen  was  that?  What  year  and  w 

A.  That  I  cannot  state.  I  do  not  know  what 
mouth  it  was  in. 

40  x-Q.  Was  it  in  1SS2? 

A.  I  cannot  toll  what  year  it  was. 

31  47  x-Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  that  testimony 

was  given  before  or  after  the  experiments  about 
vvhieh  you  have  testified  in  your  direct  examination? 
A.  Unit  I  cannot  tell.  I  havo  forgotten. 

4S  x-Q.  You  havo  testified  that  you  went  to  Menlo 
1  at k  on  or  about  May  9th,  1 SS2,  and  that  about  two 
",  later  you  commenced  tho  experiments,  tho 
n  eryennigtnue  being  employed  in  preparing  ap- 
^°r  S' atc  whethul'  thosu  experiments 
»  ere  begun  before  the  1st  of  June-are  you  positive? 

1st  of  June|,0S0  ‘hat  thoy  "'e,e  b°Kun  before  tho 

y°“  aro  P°sitivo  the  first  experi- 
mpn?ts  took  place  during  the  last  two  weeks  of  May, 

A.  I  am  positive. 

vou°tlm  I"  y,°Ur  ,first  experiments,  as  I  understand 
I  coreect?  “  °S  WU1'°  reSulated  by  hand.  Am 

John  F.  Ott. 

51  x-Q.  Wheit  did  you  first  use  the  automatic  de-  33 
vice  for  regulating  the  brushes? 

A.  When  it  was  finished  I  cannot  exactly  state, 
but  I  made  the  drawing  to  be  made  in  the  workshop 
on  the  7th  of  June. 

52  x-Q.  Did  you  make  any  drawings  for  the  first 
experiments  which  you  say  were  made  in  May? 

A.  >'0,  I  did  not. 

53  x-Q.  Where  was  the  machine  that  you  made 
your  first  crude  experiments  upon? 

A.  In  the  dynamo  room,  back  of  the  workshop  at  34 
Menlo  Park. 

54  x-Q.  Describe  how  those  first  experiments  were 
conducted,  and  state  who  was  present. 

A.  They  were  conducted  by  running  a  line  from 
tho  dynamo  room  into  tiie  laboratory  to  the  lamps  at 
the  test  hoard,  and  also  lamps  in  the  office  and  in 
Mr.  Edison’s  house,  and  parties  being  present  was 
Martin  Force,  Tom  Logan,  and  that  is  all  I  can  re¬ 

55  x-Q.  Was  Mr.  Edison  there?  35 

A.  He  came  the  following  day  because  he  had 

been  to  New  York. 

5G  x-Q.  You  have  stated  that  Mr.  Edison  showed 
you  some  sketches  about  this  time.  Who  made  the 
sketches,  and  can  you  produce  them? 

A.  Mr.  Edison  made  the  sketches.  I  think  I  could 
produce  some  of  them. 

57  x-Q.  Did  you  see  him  make  them? 

A.  I  saw  him  make  some  of  the  sketches. 

58  x-Q.  Where  was  he  when  he  made  some  of  30 

A.  Menlo  Park. 

59  x-Q.  Please  produce  them. 

A.  I  cannot  here  now. 

00  x-Q.  The  first  method  of  regulating  the  extra 
brushes  was  by  hand,  was  it  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

01  x-Q.  Later,  and  on  or  about  June  7,  1S$2,.  you 
made  sketches  of  an  automatic  device  for  regulating 
an  extra  brush,  did  you  not? 

John  F.  Ott. 

10  John  F.  Ott.  ;|4 

A.  Yes,  sir:  1  did.  -ff 

02  x-Q.  Can  you  produce  that  sketch  which  you  f:fi 

made  June  7th;  If  so,  please  do  so. 

A.  I  cannot  at  present.  Ft! 

00  x-Q.  Can  you  do  it  at  all;  ' 

A.  Yes.  ;  ; 

01  x-Q.  Where  is  the  sketch  which  you  made 
June  7th? 

A.  At  the  laboratory.  Seventeenth  street  and  if 

Avenue  15.  -  yjj 

0a  x  Q.  Why  do  you  not  produce  it  and  offer  it  in 

Counsel  for  Edison  here  stales  that  the  wit¬ 
ness  has  not  the  decision  in  this  case  of  what 
exhibits  should  bo  put  in  evidence,  and  that 
counsel  have  decided  that  the  particular  work - 
i»K  drawing  referred  to  shall  not  be  put  in 
evidence  in  this  case. 

A.  Because  I  was  not  aware  of  what  I  was  called 
over  here  for,  and  was  not  prepared  for  anything  of 
the  kind. 

Ott  x-Q  Will  you  go  and  get  the  sketch  and  bring 
it  here  if  your  counsel,  Mr.  Dyer,  asks  vou  to  do  so? 

A.  \  es,  I  would,  if  Mr.  Dyer  says  so.' 

Counsel  for  Scribner  hero  requests  a  recess 
of  an  hour  in  order  that  witness  may  produce 
the  drawing  made  by  him  June  7th,  I8S° 
Recess  here  taken  for  one  hour  for 

09  x-Q.  Exhibit  B  was  made  by  you,  as  I  under-  41 
stand  you,  June  7th,  1S82? 

A.  I  have  made  a  mistake,  and  find  it  is  June  5th 
instead  of  June  7th,  as  I  have  previously  stated. 

70  x-Q.  State  how  the  automatic  device  as  shown 
in  said  exhibit  works? 

A.  The  arm  shown  at  the  top  of  -the  drawing  is 
an  arm  holding  the  third  brush  on  a  separate  shaft 
in  the  rear  of  the  dynamo  shaft,  in  the  same  line 
with  the  dynamo  shaft,  having  upon  it  a  worm 
wheel  and  a  worm  meshing  into  it.  Upon  the  worm  2 
shaft  are  two  ratchets  cut  in  opposite  directions,  on 
each  side  of  that  being  two  magnets  working  pawls, 
—one  in  one  direction,  the  other  in  the  other— these 
magnets  being  brought  in  play  by  the  pressure  relay, 
as  the  pressure  varies  on  the  main  line,  the  pressure 
relay  not  being  shown  in  this  drawing.  To  make 
the  continuous  vibration  of  those  magnets  to  rotate 
the  arm,  there  is  a  separate  circuit  breaker  on  the 
end  of  the  dynamo  shaft. 

71  x-Q.  Then,  Mr.  Ott,  as  I  understand  you,  you  43 
went  to  Menlo  Park  May  9th,  and  Mr.  Edison  ex¬ 
plained  to  you  by  sketches  the  outline  of  the  test 
which  I10  desired  to  be  made.  That  for  some  two 
weeks  you  were  engaged  in  perfecting  apparatus  for 
making  these  tests.  That  the  first  tests  were  made 
the  latter  part  of  May,  and  consisted  in  mounting 
one  or  two  brushes  on  a  brush  holder  fixed  to  the 
main  brush  holder,  the  positions  of  the  extra  brushes 
being  regulated  by  hand  by  loosening  the  thumb 
screws  you  referred  to;  that  subsequently  you  made  U 
Exhibit  B.  Is  that  correct? 

(>t  x-Q.  Have  you  found  the  drawing  referred  to? 
A.  les,  sir. 

08  XQ-  Please  produce  it.  Is  this  it' 

A.  That  is  it. 

nit  witness  here  produces  the  drawing  a: 
says  this  is  it.  The  same  is  offered  in  c 
dence  and  marked  “  Edison’s  Exhibit  B.” 


Objected  to  as  an  incomplete  statement  of 
the  witness’  testimony. 

A.  That  is  correct. 

72  x-Q.  The  extra  brushes  being  mounted  as  you 
have  described,  were  they  not  necessarily  moveu 
when  the  main  brushes  were  moved? 

A.  Yes.  sir. 

John  F.  Ott. 

45  73  x-Q.  Dunn}?  this  time  liuw  eminently  (lid  you 
talk  with  Mr.  Edison;  that  is,  from  the  Oth  of  May 
till  the  5th  of  June,  1SS2? 

A.  He  came  out  there  almost  every  day,  or  every 
other  day.  He  had  other  business  to  attend  to  out¬ 
side,  and  of  course  could  not  attend  to  it  all  alone 
at  Menlo  Park,  and  requested  me  to  conduct  the  re¬ 
quired  experiments  and  tests  and  give  him  curves 
of  such  tests,  which  he  approved  of  when  he  saw 

46  74  x-Q.  Have  you  any  of  the  sketches  which 
Mr.  Edison  used  in  giving  you  the  outline  of  the 
tests  to  be  made? 

A.  I  have  not. 

id  x-Q.  Do  you  know  where  they  are?  Can  you 
produce  them? 

A.  They  are  in  the  possession  of  Mr.  Edison. 

76  x-Q.  Did  you  see  him  make  them? 

A.  I  did. 

77  x-Q.  Did  he  make  them  for  you  at  tin's  time? 

47  A.  He  did. 

7S  x-Q.  Do  you  remember  those  sketches  so  that 
you  can  tell  what  they  were  from  memory? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

i9  x-Q.  Did  they  show  the  extra  brushes  at¬ 
tached  to  the  main  brushes  as  you  made  the  first 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

you°!X  Q'  You  are  0,lti,ely  sure  on  this  point,  are 

48  A.  Yes,  sir. 

51  x-Q.  How  many  sketches  were  there? 

A.  I  am  sure  I  cannot  toll. 

52  x-Q.  Were  there  more  than  one? 

A  Oh.  yes;  there  were  more  than  one. 

53  x-Q  Could  you  reproduce  those  sketches  from 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

54  x-Q.  Please  do  so? 

Counsel  for  Edison  objects  to  this  request 

John  F.  Ott. 

on  the  part  of  counsel  for  Scribner  on  the  49 
ground  that  the  reproduction  of  the  sketches 
would  not  be  the  best  evidence  of  what  the 
sketches  themselves  show,  and  the  witness  is 
instructed  that  he  need  not  comply  with  this 

Counsel  for  Scribner  objects  to  the  instruc¬ 
tions  given  to  the  witness  by  counsel  for  Edison 
and  requests  the  magistrate  to  instruct  the  - 
witness  that  it  is  his  duty  to  comply  with  the 
request  of  counsel  for  Scribner  and  repro-  50 
duce  the  said  sketches. 

Notaiiy:  I  do  not  understand  that  I  have 
power  under  the  rules  of  the  Patent  Office  to 
compel  the  witness  to  act  contrary  to  the  ad¬ 
vice  of  his  counsel. 

Counsel  for  Scribner  repeats  his  request  to 
the  magistrate  and  asks  whether  he  will  in¬ 
struct  the  witness  as  requested. 

Notary:  As  I  before  stated  I  do  not  think  I 
have  the  power  and  therefore  cannot  put  my-  51 
self  upon  record  as  eichcr  declining  or  ac¬ 
ceding  to  the  wishes  of  counsel  for  Scribner. 

A.  Having  been  instructed  by  Mr.  Dyer  not  to  do 
so  I  decline  to  do  as  requested. 

Counsel  for  Scribner  here  gives  notice  that 
that  he  shall  insist  uponthe  witness  comply¬ 
ing  with  his  request  and  that  he  will  move  to 
strike  out  all  of  the  testimony  of  the  witness  52 
unless  his  request  is  complied  with. 

85  x-Q.  When  did  you  last  see  the  sketches  made 
by  Mi-.  Edison? 

A.  In  July,  1882. 

86  x-Q.  Where  were  they? 

A.  Menlo  Park. 

87  x-Q.  In  whose  possession? 

A.  In  mine. 


John  F.  Ott. 

53  88  x-Q.  About  how  many  were  thore? 

A.  I  should  say  there  were  about  half  a  dozen. 

80  x-Q.  Describe  them? 

A.  They  were  sketches  showing  the  position  of 
one  extra  brush,  and  some  showing  tho  position  of 
two  extra  brushes;  also  showing  tho  direction  of 
tho  current  with  the  brushes  in  such  a  position,  and 
tho  direction  of  tho  current  flowing,  when  tho 
brushes  were  shifted,  in  another  direction. 

90  x-Q.  How  was  tho  single  extra  brush  attached 

54  to  tho  main  brushes  as  shown  in  the  sketches? 

A.  Either  from  pillow  block  or  brush-holder  arm. 

91  x-Q.  Was  the  wooden  block  shown  with  the 
single  extra  brush  in  the  sketch? 

A.  The  sketch  showed  a  method  that  a  block  or 
any  insulating  material  might  be  used  to  fasten 
tins  third  arm  upon  and  bo  made  adjustable  with  or 
without  the  other  brushes. 

92  x-Q.  In  the  sketch  which  showed  tho  singlo 
extra  brush,  was  there  a  slot  for  the  screw  by  which 

55  the  extra  brush  was  adjusted? 

A.  I  received  an  explanation  with  the  sketch  that 
it  might  be  made  m  that  way.  and  Mr.  Edison  left 
it  entirely  for  me  to  carry  the  balance  of  it  out. 

93  x-Q  Then  the  slot  was  not  shown  in  the 

sketch  which  showed  the  single  extra  brush  as  I 
understand  you?  ' 

A.  No,  I  did  not  say  that.  I  only  say  that  I  do 
not  remember  whether  it  was  or  not.  But  I  do 
Know  the  explanation  was  given. 

50  94  x-Q.  Who  gave  you  the  explanation? 

A.  Mr.  Edison. 

95  x-Q  Were  slots  shown  in  the  sketches  which 
represented  two  extra  brushes? 

A.  They  were. 

90  x-Q.  Have  you  now  fully  described  all  that  you 

you  bv  Mr°  F  I0''  in  the  sketches  made  for 

you  5)  Mr.  Edison  in  May,  1882? 

t;  Tntl!ncbest  0f  my  recollect'°n  I  have. 

sketohes  then  showed  two  modifica- 
tions  of  the  invention.  One  form  consisted  of  a 

John  F.  Ott. 

single  brush  attached  to  an  adjustable  brush-holder,  57 
and  the  other  showed  two  extra  brushes  attached  to 
an  adjustable  brush-holder,  and  the  extra  brushes 
were  to  bo  regulated  by  loosening  screws  which 
wore  in  a  slot  and  then  adjusting  the  brushes  by 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

98  x-Q.  What  further  instructions,  if  any,  did 
Mr.  Edison  give  you  besides  the  sketches? 

A.  He  gave  me  an  explanation  how  to  go  to 
work  and  make  them;  also  the  results  that  might  5s 
he  noticed,  and  instructed  mo  to  guard  against 
these  results  and  give  him  a  copy  of  the  notes. 

99  x-Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  saying  “lie  in¬ 
structed  me  to  guard  against  certain  results?” 

A.  What  I  mean  by  guarding  against  re¬ 
sults  is  that  in  all  experiments  they  are  liable  for 
results  unknown  to  turn  up;  and,  in  case  such 
should  turn  up,  to  make  it  known,  as  it  might  lead 
to  an  invention. 

100  x-Q.  Did  you  notice  during  these  experiments  59 
any  such  new  results;  and,  if  so,  what? 

A.  I  noticed  several  results  but  do  not  think  it 
my  place  to  explain  them  here. 

101  x-Q.  Did  you  report  the  new  results  which 
you  say  you  observed,  to  Mr.  Edison. 

A.  I  did. 

102  x-Q.  I11  writing,  or  verbally? 

A.  Verbally. 

103  x-Q.  What  were  they? 

A.  The  peculiarities  in  the  curves  given  of  the  60 
different  electro  motive  force  on  the  line,  or  in  other 
words,  peculiar  positions  that  the  brushes  had 

104  x-Q.  Any  other? 

A.  That  is  all. 

105  x-Q.  Did  Mr.  Edison,  at  this  time,  consider 
tho  new  result  which  you  have  described  above  as 
now  to  himself? 

A.  Mr.  Edison  is  never  in  the  habit  of  expressing 
—  his  opinion  on  that  subject  to  anybody. 

John  F.  Ott. 

Cl  10(!x-Q.  He  did  not  then  express  nil  opinion  at 
tin's  time! 

A.  He  did  not;  not  to  me. 

107  x-Q.  Your  object  then  in  conducting  these 
experiments  ns  far  ns  you  know,  was  to  find  out 
vliat  would  lie  tile  effect  of  using  one  or  more  extra 
“rushes  upon  a  dynamo  machine  as  you  h-n-e  de¬ 

A.  My  object  in  the  experiments  was  to  deter- 
mine  the  practicability  of  these  things  rather  than 
0.  the  experiment  of  determining  what  the  result 
would  bo. 

ICS  x-Q.  Did  these  experiments  convince  you  that 
it  was  practicable  and  useful  to  use  one  or  more 
extra  brushes  as  you  have  described? 

A.  }  es,  sir;  they  did. 

m  x-Q.  When  were  the  first  sketches  made  of 
brush?  0"latlU  ’  °V1CU  f°r  rogulati,,8  1,10  si,,fe'10  extra 

rs  n  Ac  If 'was  ei‘her  in  the  latter  part  of  May.  or  in 
G3  tliu  first  part  of  Juno. 

110  x-Q.  Who  made  them? 

A.  Mr.  Edison. 

\  1  Yes  sii 'd  y°U  Se°  hilU  "lak°  thoin? 

^  Can  J'ou  produce  them* 

113  x  Q.  Where  are  they? 

mVoPlwf in  r?  I,0ssossion  of  Mr.  Edison, 
g  i  V  t  iF?  ^en  did  you  see  then,  last? 

mint,:  "  as  in  July  or  August,  1SS,. 
the  first  mn,1°  thon  immediately  after 

Menlo  Park?  S  —  made  after  you  4nt  to 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

theynot?  AmlgreW0Ut0f  thosc  experiments  did 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

117  x-Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  Charles  V 

John  F.  Ott. 

118  x-Q.  Did  you  in  May,  1S82,  know  of  any  other  65 
experiments  made  by  other  parties  than  Mr.  Edison 
in  which  one  or  more  extra  brushes  were  used  for 
the  purpose  described? 

A.  I  did  not. 

110  x-Q.  Then  you  consider  the  extra  brush  or 
brushes  as  shown  in  Mr.  Edison’s  sketches  and  as 
experimented  with  by  you  new  at  that  time,  did 
you  not? 

A.  To  my  knowledge,  yes.  But  I  have  found  a 
sketch  since  laying  around  that  dates  back  of  that  66 
which  I  turned  over  to  the  care  of  the  company  at 
05  Fifth  avenue. 

120  x-Q.  Can  you  produce  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

121  x-Q.  When  did  you  last  see  it — the  sketch 
which  you  say  you  turned  over? 

A.  I  should  judge  within  a  month. 

122  x-Q.  Have  you  not  seen  it  within  a  week? 

A.  No,  sir,  1  have  not. 

123  x-Q.  What  was  the  date  on  the  sketch?  67 

A.  That  I  do  not  recollect. 

121  x-Q.  Where  did  you  find  it? 

A.  Among  some  drawings  that  were  stored  away 
in  the  laboratory. 

125  x-Q.  When  did  you  find  it  first? 

A.  I  think  it  must  have  been  about  May  1st,  1SS3 

126  x-Q.  Did  you  find  it  at  Menlo  Park? 

A.  No,  sir. 

127  x-Q.  Where  did  you  find  it? 

A.  At  the  laboratory  of  T.  A.  Edison  at  Seven-  68 
teenth  street  and  Avenue  B. 

12S  x-Q.  How  came  you  to  find  it?  Did  you  just 
accidentally  come  upon  it?  What  prompted  it? 

A.  Because  it  was  belonging  to  that  class  of  ex¬ 

120  x-Q.  You  were  looking  up  drawings  then  in 
this  matter? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  was  not. 

130  x-Q.  You  say  it  antedated  the  sketch  made 
for  you  in  May,  1882.  Have  you  any  recollection 

John  F.  Ott. 

A.  No,  I  have  not.  I  have  forgotten  all  about  it. 

131  x-Q.  Then,  until  you  found  that  sketch  you 
believed  that  the  sketch  which  Hr.  Edison  made  for 
>’o«  in  May,  1SS2,  showed  a  new  device.  That  is,  a 
device  new  at  that  time? 

A.  To  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  I  was  ready  to 
believe  that  way. 

132  x-Q.  That  is,  your  conversation  with  Mr.  Ed- 
1  ison  led  you  to  believe  to  that  elToct? 

A.  Yes,  as  to  tho  sketches  and  not  as  to  the  con- 

13.j  Re-d.Q.  Have  you  the  block  for  supporting 
the  extra  brush  or  brushes  which  was  used  by  you 
during  the  latter  part  of  May,  ISS* 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

neir^  IS  lhlSthe  b!ock  (1,lock  shown  wit- 
A.  Yes.  sir. 

The  block  referred  to  is  offered  in  evidence 
and  marked  Edison’s  Exhibit  C. 

135  Re-d.Q.  When  this  block  was  secured  in  posi- 
lon,  was  it  not  possible  by  loosening  the  screws 
connecting  this  block  with  the  arm  carrying  the 
t0f  adrst  the  n,ain  brushes  without 

Stott  01  -',ra 

Re-choss-examixatio.y  by  Mb.  Bakto.v: 

130  Re-x-Q.  Was  it  ever  used  in 
A.  \  es,  sir;  it  was. 

137  Re-x-Q.  By  whom? 

A.  By  Mr.  Edison  and  myself. 

John  F.  Ott. 

13S  Re-x-Q.  Together  or  independently  of  each 

A.  Both  ways. 

130  Re-x-Q.  If  the  screws  which  held  the  wooden 
block  were  already  resting  against  the  end  of  the 
slot,  it  would  be  impossible  to  adjust  the  main 
brushes  in  that  direction,  without  moving  the  extra 
blushes,  would  it  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

140  Ro-x-Q.  How  long  was  Exhibit  C  in  use? 

A.  About  two  or  three  days. 

141  Re-x-Q.  How  long  was  the  automatic  device 
made  from  drawing  Exhibit  B  kept  in  use? 

A.  Several  weeks— about  three. 

J.  F.  Ott. 

Adjourned  to  Thursday,  October  4th,  at  10  A.  M. 

Martin  N.  Force. 

77  Met,  pursuant  to  adjournment,  this  4th  day  of 
October,  I SS3. 

Santo  parties  present. 

Martin  N.  Force,  a  witness  produced  on  behalf 
of  T.  A.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  savs, 
in  answer  to  questions  proposed  bv  Hichard  N 
Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison,  ils  follows:’ 

1  Q.  What  is  your  name,  age,  residence  and  oecu- 

78  pation? 

A.  Martin  N.  Force;  ago,  thirty-four;  residence, 
Jtenlo  Park;  occupation,  assistant  to  Mr.  Edison. 
veaMSs'?IUrU  "ele  "V0U  tlui-i"s  tIlc  slln>nior  of  the 
A.  On  the  2Sth  of  April  I  returned  from  Europe, 
and  m  about  a  week  or  ten  days  from  that  time  I 
went  into  the  laboratory  to  work  at  Menlo  Park. 

Q-  Do  >'ou  recollect  of  trials  of  regulators  for 
dynamo  electric  machines  after  you  resumed  work 
70  in  the  laboratory? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  l'do. 

4  Q.  By  whom  were  those  trials  conducted? 

A.  By  .Mr.  Ott. 

■’,Q-  i  "n'v  pal1  y°ur  attention  to  the  device 
naiked  Exhibit  C.  Do  you  recognize  the  same? 

A.  y  es,  sir;  I  recognize  the  piece  Exhibit  C 

usedQfoS'h0n  di<1  y°U  firSt  S°e  il’  a,,d  What  "’as  « 

so  1  Tr?r,bor  TinK  in  th°  iattw  i®*  May, 

circuit  S  'T  USGd  f0r.t  ,e  l'p«ulati011  of  the  field 
cncuit  of  a  dynamo  machine. 

i  Q.  Please  explain  the  circumstances  under 
which  you  saw  it  used? 

thf'm^"’|EXl!ibit,CfaSten0d  to  tho  arm  holding 
the  mam  brushes  by  two  thumb  screws  passed 
through  tlie  slots  on  the  exhibit.  P 

thaUinS,at  "'aS  Can'ied  by  this  piece’  Exb™  C,  at 
A.  Two  brushes. 

Martin  N.  Fo 

0  Q.  Were  tliese  the  only  brushes  that  the  ma-  81 
chine  was  provided  with? 

A.  No,  sir.  The  machine  lmd  two  other  brushes. 

10  Q.  What  were  these  two  other  brushes? 

A.  They  were  the  line  brushes. 

11  Q.  What  was  the  construction  of  the  dynamo 
machine  to  which  this  regulator,  Exhibit  C,  was 
applied  with  reference  to  the  number  of  commutator 

A.  It  is  the  regular  Edison  dynamo  machine, 
known  as  the  “Z”  machine.  I  think  the  number  82 
of  commutator  bare  was  74. 

12  Q.  How  many  commutator  cylinders  did  the 
machine  have? 

A.  It  was  one  cylinder. 

13  Q.  Do  you  recollect  the  use  of  any  other  regu¬ 
lator  on  dynamo  electric  machines  at  Menlo  Park, 
subsequent  to  the  use  of  Exhibit  C,  in  which  were 
employed  more  commutator  brushes  than  the  ordi¬ 
nary  or  line  commutator  brushes  of  the  machine? 

A-  I  recollect  the  automatic  third  brush  regulator  S3 
used  on  the  machine  running  the  lights  at  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son’s  house  and  office. 

14  Q.  When  was  this  automatic  third  brush  regu¬ 
lator  so  used? 

A.  From  the  early  part  of  June,  1SS2,  up  to  about 
October,  1SS2. 

15  Q.  What  was  the  occasion  of  the  discontinuing 
the  use  of  this  regulator? 

A.  The  moving  into  New  York  of  the  office  and 
Mr.  Edison’s  family.  §4. 

1C  Q.  I  now  call  your  attention  to  the  working 
drawing,  Exhibit  B;  do  you  recognize  the  mechan¬ 
ism  shown  by  this  drawing? 

A.  I  recognize  Exhibit  B  as  being  the  mechanism 
of  the  automatic  third  brush  regulator  I  which  have 
before  referred  to. 

.  Cross-examination  by  George  P.  Barton,  Esq., 
Attorney  for  Scribner: 

17  x-Q.  How  long  were  you  in  Europe? 

A.  Somewhere  about  ten  months. 

>  IS  x-Q.  Did  you  assist  Mr.  Ott  in  his  experiment 
in  May  and  June,  1SS2? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

19  x-Q.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Ott  when  ho  made  the 
drawing  marked  Edison  Exhibit  B. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  saw  him  working  on  that  draw¬ 

20  x-Q.  Who  was  present  at  the  time,  besides 
yourself  and  Mr.  Ott! 

A.  A  young  man  by  the  name  of  Frank  Wardlaw 

3  was  most  of  the  time  present. 

21  x-Q.  Was  Mr.  Edison  present  at  any  time 
while  Exhibit  B  was  being  made! 

A.  1  think  he  was. 

22  x-Q.  Do  you  iu  cube  that  ho  was,  or  is  it 
simply  an  impression* 

A.  I  am  not  positive  that  he  was  there  at  that 
particular  time  he  was  making  the  drawing. 

23  x-Q.  Then,  ns  far  as  you  know,  tho  mechanism 
shown  by  Exhibit  B  was  the  invention  of  Mr.  Ott, 

1  was  it  not? 

A.  Not  the  invention  of  Mr.  Ott.  I  stated  that 
the  drawing  was  made  by  Mr.  Ott.  Mr.  Edison  is 
generally  tho  inventor. 

24S.Q.  1  on  think  then  that  Mr.  Edison  was  the 
inventor  of  the  system  shown  in  Exhibit  B,  simply 
because  it  was  Mr.  Ott’s  business  to  work  for  Mr 
•Edison  and  put  Mr.  Edison’s  inventions  into  me¬ 
chanical  shape.  That  is  one  of  tho  reasons,  is  it,  why 
you  think  so? 

5  A.  Yes. 

But  yo"  dM  I10t  «»  Mr.  Edison  directing 
madS  tlm°  while  Exhibit  B  'vas  being 

ArAnlCanU°t  10  n,ind  a  Particular  time  while 
Mi.  Ott  was  making  that  particular  drawing,  when 
h^anydnection  to  the  work  of  maktg  tho 

20  x-Q.  Was  he  present  at  any  particular  time 
that  you  can  recall,  during  the  time  Mr.  Ott  was 

Martin  N.  Force. 


testing  the  machine  that  was  made  from  the  Ex-  ro 
liibit  B. 

A.  I  do  not  recall  any  particular  time.  But  he 
was  usually  around  most  every  day. 

27  x-Q.  Did  you  not  in  June,  1SS2,  understand 
that  tlio  automatic  mechanism  for  regulating  the 
third  brush  as  shown  in  Exhibit  B,  to  bo  the  inven¬ 
tion  of  Mr.  Ott* 

A.  No,  sir:  I  never  understood  it  being  the  inven¬ 
tion  of  Mr.  Ott. 

2S  x-Q.  Whose  invention  did  you  understand  it  to  go 

A.  I  understood  it  to  be  tho  invention  of  Mr. 

29  x-Q.  Did  Mr.  Edison  take  any  part  in  the  ex¬ 
periments  made  with  Exhibit  C  in  the  latter  part  of 
May,  1SS2,  if  so  tell  what  Mr.  Edison  said  and 

A.  I  do  not  remember  of  his  taking  any  part  as  I 
myself  was  not  connected  with  the  experiment  per¬ 
sonally,  although  he  may  have.  91 

30  x-Q.  Did  you  see  the  dynamo  in  use  for  gener¬ 
ating  electricity  while  Exhibit  C  was  attached  there¬ 
to  in  May,  18S2? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  saw  it  running. 

31  x-Q.  Did  you  trace  the  circuits  of  the  machine? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not  trace  the  circuits. 

32  x-Q.  There  were  two  extra  brashes  mounted 
on  the  wooden  block  marked  Exhibit  C  at  that 

A.  Yes,  sir;  there  was  at  the  time  I  saw  it.  92 

33  x-Q.  Wore  both  of  those  brushes  in  use  at  the 
same  time.  Could  you  tell  from  the  appearance  of 
the  machine? 

A.  Thejr  were  in  use  at  the  same  time',  both  mak¬ 
ing  contact  at  the  commutator. 

34  x-Q.  Do  you  know  that  both  brushes  were  in 
circuit  simultaneously,  and  if  so,  how? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  knew  they  were  both  in  circuit.  I 
saw  Mr.  Ott  adjust  the  brushes  and  from  a  lamp 
that  was  in,  I  saw  the  light  raised  and  lowered. 

Martin  N.  Force. 

93  x/?\  01,1  -vo"  seo  Jr'-  Ott  when  h0  first  attacli- 
etl  Exhibit  C  to  the  machine,  and  when  lie  first  tun 

A  I  cannot  say  I  saw  him  make  the  attach¬ 

3iix-Q.  Did  you  s,  tho  machine  jporation  the 
hi-st  day  of  the  experiments  with  Exhibit  C» 

A.  I  cannot  say  whether  it  was  the  first,  second 
o.  thn-d  day  r  cannot  re, nil  to  memory  the  day. 

94  day!  best  rtTOll,;ction  to  the 

A.  My  best  recollection  is  that  Exhibit  C  was  used 
for  regulator  in  the  latter  part  of  May,  is" for 
eg-dahno  He'd  circuit  of  a  dynamo  machine  ’ 

A  I  e',,  notV'"i,ny  <Ii,yS  "'“S  il  "S0<li 
bein'"-  iisfui  h'!  I'!'"’ man-v  l,a-vs-  1  remember  it 

95  once, '(lid  yen' not™'  hxl“blt  0  in  ,lso  m°ro  than 

A.  Yes." 

■hi  x-Q.  More  than  twice’ 

itAiam iJit  K  ^  ««,<* 1  saw 

running  order  more  than'  twice'0' *  tImt  1  ifc  in 
more  than  three  times?  ^  US°  011  dlfferont  days 
^  feront  days  or  not^  l°  m'ml  wllot,1°r  it  was  dif- 

tho  machine  in"  uso'wiM11*!’  f?fb'vo  that  you  saw 
ih^1  f'„U  a^aro  you^X  11  ,l1  °  at^ac'ied,  on 
one  day  or  not!°TniPt  !t  was  more  than 

days  and  number  of  times  tb°  number  of 

^-nmg  m  the  latter  &  ^4™*  1 

01 Ts™*™ '' the  latter  part 

with  at  tltauC'S^Edis1 WaSn,yself  connected 

Martin  X.  Force. 

44  x  Q.  As  I  understand  your  testimony  you  97 
say  you  saw  the  machine  with  Exhibit  C  attached 

in  use  immediately  before  Exhibit  B  was  made. 

You  say  that  it  must  have  been  the  latter  part  of 
May  because  you  were  making  some  other  experi¬ 
ments  about  that  time  for  Sir.  Edison.  How  do 
those  other  experiments  lead  you  to  think  you  saw 
Exhibit  C  attached  to  a  running  machine  the  latter 
part  of  May. 

A.  After  my  return  from  Europe,  which  was  on 
tho  2Sth  of  April,  1SS2,  I  was  home  then  for  some  OS 
ten  or  twelve  days  before  returning  to  work.  Mr. 

Ott  was  then  working  on  regulators  when  I  re¬ 
turned,  which  was  along  about  the  middle  of  May. 

Mr.  flit  asked  Mr.  Edison  that  I  might  assist  him  in 
his  experiments  and  Mr.  Edison  said,  “  no,  I  have 
some  other  things  I  want  him  to  try.”  That  is  why 
I  fix  the  date  by  those  experiments. 

45  x-Q.  Your  attention  was  not  then  particularly 
called  to  this  invention  in  May,  1.SS2,  was  iti 

A.  Not  particularly.  09 

4,1  x-Q.  And  you  paid  no  particular  attention  to 
the  time  when  Mr.  Ott  got  ready  to  make  the  first 
experiments  with  the  extra  brushes.  Am  I  cor¬ 

A.  Not  to  any  particular  day,  but  it  followed 
directly  after  his  asking  for  my  assistance. 

47  x-Q.  Then  you  have  no  data  further  than  your 
general  recollection  by  which  you  can  fix  the  date 
of  the  first  experiments  with  the  extra  brushes’ 

A.  I  will  add  that  after  Mr.  Edison  refusing  to  100 
let  mu  assist  Mr.  Ott,  he  (Ott)  took  Wardlnw,  that 
I  have  already  mentioned,  and  I  remember  hearing 
Ott  tell  Wardlaw  to  cut  out  a  piece  of  board  for  an 

4S  x-Q.  Is  Exhibit  C  the  board? 

A.  It  was  like  that. 

49  x-Q.  Did  you  yourself  understand  the  nature 
of  the  experiment  for  which  the  board  was  to  be 
used  at  that  time? 

A.  I  understood  it  to  be  for  a  third  brush  regu¬ 

Ife'ot  it  from  Mr.  Kdison  mid  Ott  when  the 
oil  was  asked  if  I  could  assist  him. 
c-Q.  Did  Mr.  Kdison  at  that  lime  say  anything 
the  results  lie  expected  from  the  experiments' 
I  don  I  lememher  of  liearin- him  say  anything 
it  time  as  to  the  results.  “ 

S,i"e’  “  ,!e1a‘,-v  i,s •“»»,  tlie  substance 
3  language  used  hy  Mr.  Kdison  al  the  time  Mr. 
tvi  nl;!-V°,"  assist 11,0  ^I’wimontsi 

ii '  ."<  d  :  CJ  K,'iS0,‘  the 

.  aid.  as  iil.1i  as  I  can  remember.  "  Can’t 


iptii e of  the  invention  which  Mr.  Ott  was  to 
\"-o'  I »i,V '  M .* * Tw #aS  ,Ka‘  as  1  can  rL,niemher. 


i-zatc?' ,viiid'  1,1 '» "i'l.'j 

O',  or  about  that  time  l.v  Mr.  Ott 

-..'extra  I, rush,,'  '  a,,J'th,,,S  a»*>ut  the 

Jowhmconcer.s'.tiondoyou  refer! 

^“IpconductU,e‘  v',iCl‘  °U  aske'1  Edison  to  let 
I  imict  the  experiments' 

;\°t  0  ">y  ■•collection. 

x‘"  (x-Q.  4ti  and  So  read  tou-h,,  \ 

■  Ui«i»lion  wiSwSV'-  0“ 

tion  of  a  third  brush  by  either  Mr.  Ediso 

o!i  Bod.  Q.  What  is  the  time  that  you  refer  to  i 
your  answer  to  x-Q.  491 

A.  At  the  time  when  Ott  ordered  Wardlaw  t 
make  the  board. 

00  Ro-d.  Q.  What  information  do  vou  refer  to  i 
your  answer  to  x-Q.  501 

A.  I  referred  to  a  more  detailed  explanation. 

Cl  lie  (1.  Q.  What  was  the  information  which  vo 
obtained  from  Edison  and  Ott,  as  stated  in  answc 
to  x-Q.  50? 

A.  The  information  that  I  obtained  from  that  wo 
for  a  regulator  to  be  used  for  regulating  the  field  c 
a  dynamo  machine. 

02  Ite-d.  Q.  Did  the  information  you  obtained  fror 
Ott  and  Edison,  referred  to  in  your  answer  to  x-C 
5o,  relate  to  any  particular  form  of  regulator  orwa* 
it  general? 

Objected  to  by  counsel  for  Scribner  as  lead 

A.  At  that  time  there  was  no  particular  forn 
specified  that  I  can  remember,  except  that  it  was  t( 
regulate  the  field  of  a  dynamo  machine. 

03  Iie-d.  Q.  Is  this  the  information  which  you  re 
ferred  to  in  your  answer  to  x-Q  50' 

A.  Yes. 

04  Re-d.  Q.  How  much  of  the  time  were  you  pres 
out  when  Mr.  Ott  was  engaged  making  the  work¬ 
ing  drawing  Exhibit  B. 

A.  Only  occasionally  when  I  happened  in  the 
room  where  he  was  working.  I  was  engaged  in  an¬ 
other  part  of  the  building. 

Ee-cross-examixatiox  by  Counsel  fob  Scribner: 

05  Re-x-Q.'  Who  first  spoke  of  regulating  the  field 

Martin  N.  Force. 

if  a  dynamo  machine— Edison  or  Ott— at  the  con- 
rersation  referred  to  in  answer  to  02  lie-d.Q.i 
A.  I  don't  remember. 

iio  Ro.x.Q.  Are  von  sure  that  regulating  the  field 
l>y  anyone”0  ,M!,C  111,0  "  as  referred  to  at  that  time 
A.  }  eg.  sir:  I  am  cjiiitu  sure. 

•iT  lfe-x-Q.  But  hy  whom  yon  do  not  know, 
made  by0110"'  ’°  m,wl  who  11,0  reference  wiw 

m-ide  soinewln  i 1  ° i  ,,“i  reference  was 

nunc  somewhere  about  that  time. 

encj  wasTnaUe'mo'o'1'  ““Ctb;  wl.nt  time  the  refer- 

islwre  taken  for  thirty  minutes. 

William  H.  Meadowcroft. 

William  H.  Meadowcroft,  a  witness  produced  jjg 
on  behalf  of  T.  A.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn, 
deposes  and  says,  in  answer  to  questions  proposed  by 
Kichard  N.  Dyer,  Esq.,  Counsel  for  Edison,  as 

1  Q.  What  is  your  name,  age,  residence  and 

A.  William  H.  Meadowcroft;  age,  80;  residence, 

320  West  Twenty-second  street,  New  York  City; 
occupation,  Private  Secretary,  and  also  Notary  nq 
Public  for  the  County  of  New  York. 

^  2  Q.  Was  the  oath  attached  to  the  application  of 
Thomas  A.  Edison  for  improvement  in  dynamo  or 
magneto-electric  machines  filed  August  7th,  1SS2, 
and  involved  in  this  interference  sworn  to  before 
you,  and  if  so,  at  what  date?  You  may  refresh 
your  memory  by  reference  to  a  certified  copy  of  said 
oatb,  which  I  now  hand  you. 

Question  objected  to  by  counsel  for  Scribner  iis 
as  leading. 

A.  The  oath  of  which  this  is  a  certified  copy  was 
sworn  to  before  me  on  the  1st  day  of  March,  18S2. 

The  certified  copy  referred  to  is  put  in 
evidence  and  marked  Edison’s  Exhibit  D. 

The  Exhibit  D  objected  to  as  incompetent, 
not  being  the  best  evidence. 

3Q.  What  has  been  your  practice  with  regard  to  116 
the  execution  of  oaths  of  this  character? 

Objected  to  as  irrelevant,  his  general  prac¬ 
tice  not  forming  part  of  the  issue  in  this  case. 

A.  My  general  practice  has  been  to  date  affidavits 
on  the  day  they  were  sworn  to,  and  I  have  never 
once  departed  from  this  rule.  These  applications 
of  Mr.  Edison  are  usually  brought  to  me  all  com¬ 
plete,  with  the  exception  of  having  been  sworn  to. 

30  William  H.  Moadowcroft. 

117  L';:k°  M;-.K,lis0Ii;s  to  them,  and  sit  right 
do"  ii  and  sign  and  seal  them  at  once.  This  h -is 
been  my  uniform  practice. 

4  Q.  Did  the  application  of  Mr.  Edison  involved 
tion'fo'"  tl'fL,UI1v  fmm  ilIly  manno1-  a»  excop- 
stated  °  °nn  praclico  wllidl  I'0"  Imvo 

A.  No. 

Cross-examination  dr  Bfvf  .... 

US  Barton,  Attornev  kor  Scrirner:'  "°'iC'K  ' 

in  u»««m.iavit:  »ti,o 

toi^t1rir,aHnM,^  ^  §»- 

119  sworn  to  'by 'mL.1'1  I  ,MCe.  lhn,"Kh  sP<'eiticat  ions 

tions  that  I  have  sworn^M  "rr"  "lilny  sl)(-'cifi,';l- 
without  lev.-.,  n  -  Jlr-  Edison  to,  I  Ca,inot 
identify  it.  ”  t  10  ongmal  before  me,  thorough); 

uS alUf  which  you 

he  attached  to  the  «n„„:r  '  te’  ls  n°t,  and  may 
without  anv  change  m-,_v  (  °f  i,ny  '“vention 

-  »■  ■»  * 

300  question.  That  was  °"  tho  oath  in 

charge  of  the  soliciting  of  ,  ^  aj01'  WilIjur  had 

has  had  this  business  1 1 . -°n  s'  Silll-<-'  Mr.  Dyer 
for,»  of  oath  has  been  cl  "S  1 1)elieve  tho 

whether  the  form  of  oath  j'S;  ■  1  'lo  not  know 
the  requirements  of  the  p  f  Jlt  D  would  meet 
‘he  specification  of  any  fov  t0i"C,"  if  anno»d  to 
1  do  not  prepare  these  ou/i  ‘  "  l,y  Mr-  Edison. 

^  the  attorno^vS  ^‘yS(;  f;  they  are  P™- 
anrt  "'horn,  I  suppoj  is  ?'v  tIle  specification, 

Ut  18  retiuircd  by  the  Patent  Offlco,11'1  P''actic(> 

William  H.  Meakowcroft. 

7  x-Q.  You  used  a  printed  form,  did  you  not  ? 

A.  Yes.  It  was  annexed  by  Major  Wilbur  to  the 
end  of  the  specification. 


S  Re-d-Q.  Please  explain  the  reason  for  the  interest 
in  the  Edison  inventions,  and  for  the  examination 
of  Ins  applications,  which  are  sworn  to  before 

Objected  to  as  irrelevant. 

A.  In  my  position  as  private  secretary  to  the 
President  of  the  Edison  Electric  Light  Company,  I 
am  expected  to  keep  myself  informed  as  to  the 
number  and  subjects  of  Mr.  Edison’s  inventions, 
and  have  for  that  reason  always  taken  an  interest 
in  looking  at  the  specifications  which  pass  through 
my  hands. 

Counsel  for  Scribner  gives  notice  that  at  the 
hearing  he  shall  move  to  have  the  foregoing 
deposition  excluded,  as  not  being  the  best 
evidence,  therefore  incompetent. 

Wm.  H.  Meadowckoft. 

The  taking  of  testimony  is  postponed  subject  to 
further  notice. 

Wm.  H.  Meadowckoft, 
Notary  Public, 

New  York  County. 

Jed,  the  taking  of  testimony  in  tin's  case 
<1  this  fifth  day  of  November,  at  II 

Mott,  a  witness  produced  jn  behalf  0f 
-  ,lui.v  sworn,  deposes  and  savs  in  •», 
dions  proposed  by  Hid, ant  N.  DyV 
I  for  Kdison,  as  f.dlows:  '  ’ 

SVHa'.r'  ,,-Si,,,'me’  No"'  Vork  City; 
""'ere  you  employed  during  the  years 
''"Id-wed  by  the  Edison  Electric 

I  made  Patent-Oflice  draw- 

%  and  Miv'i'dil'onVu  v''  e11’,  my  sifl:"a' 

ll'"K  designating 

1ZSST  i0  a'V  imt  »"  evidence 
E.  1  ,esl,octivoly  Edison  Exhibit 

Samuel  D.  Mott. 

S  Q.  Please  explain  what  it  shows?  129 

A.  Shows  a  dynamo  machine,  two  brushes,  which 

are  the  main  brushes,  and  two  brushes  which  are 
on  a  handle  automatically  operated  and  adjustable 
independent  of  the  main  brushes.  The  circuit  from 
the  adjustable  brushes  energizes  the  field. 

9  Q.  In  whose  handwriting  is  the  word  “caveat” 
on  this  sketch? 

A.  In  Mr.  Edison’s. 

10  Q.  In  whose  handwriting  are  the  date  and  the 

signature,  “S.  D.  Mott?”  I3() 

A.  My  own. 

11  Q.  When  did  you  witness  this  sketch? 

A.  When  I  received  it  from  Mr.  Edison. 

12  Q.  What  does  the  date  on  the  sketch  indicate? 

A.  It  indicates  the  day  I  signed  it  as  a  witness. 

13  Q-  w*Hit  does  the  figure  at  the  bottom  of 
sketcli  Exhibit  E  show? 

A.  It  shows  two  main  brushes,  from  which  the 
main  circuit  is  taken,  and  one  adjustable  brush, 
worked  automatically,  the  circuit  from  the  adjust-  131 
able  brush  energizing  the  field. 

14  Q.  Do  you  recognize  the  handwriting  of  the 
"'ord  “caveat”  on  this  sketch? 

A.  Ido. 

15  Q.  Whose  is  it. 

A.  Mr.  Edison’s  handwriting. 

1G  Q.  Is  that  your  signature  upon  the  sketch! 

A.  Yes. 

IT  Q.  In  whose  handwriting  is  the  date  January 
3,  1881?  183 

A.  My  own. 

IS  Q.  What  does  that  date  indicate? 

A.  The  day  I  signed  it  as  a  witness. 

19  Q.  Under  what  circumstances  did  you  witness 
the  sketches  Exhibits  D  and  E? 

A.  Because  I  usually  witnessed  sketches  given  me 
by  Mr.  Edison. 

20  Q.  Do  you  recognize  the  drawing  on  tracing 
cloth  which  I  now  hand  you? 

A.  I  do. 

"'"'"■il'K  f-f.-rr.!.]  is  hereby  put  i„  evi 

iIimkv  ami  marked  Edison's  Exhibit  F. 

W  Ik-ii  was  tii.-it  drawing  made? 


r"  ti,h  fcrt*  t 

cavi'iiL  "  l'-itc-nt  Olliconsa 

135  X  Q.  l)„  vri„  , 

fil'd  ns  a  nuv'ii  |,"  1  l*s  Exhibit ■  P  was  not. 

-'i  in  tiiu  latent  Ollico; 


tlial  anv  kllo"'ledgo,  know 

A.  I  was  i,  t  the  drawing? 

alt"'-  *•  I' ■! i vi ‘s 'n n-' ) la'i ajs'  k,,ow  an-vt»mig  about  it 

-7  x-Q.  You  Ill)t 

use  it  was  put  |,,?  c  ‘  tlu-‘>i,  know  of  any 

*V  s'*':  r  do  not . 

30  ,,,-S  x-'i-  Wd  you  hav,.  am-  . 

S1:ixfb' i5"ms0lv"-i  'OCOllL'<'ti''"'  Tho  skotcl>es 

‘r  -vou  th°  °,>er. 

'  "no('to  represent?  t  lL“  sk«tclios  are  de- 

Tj  ***  A  rol)Jll)ly  UQf  T  II  . 

11  '^s  simpi0;  dul“  1  “«-'d  any  description. 

Samuel  D.  Mott. 

31  x-Q,  Then  at  the  time  these  sketches  were 
given  you,  you  understood  from  the  sketches  what 
they  wore  designed  to  represent  and  the  operation 
of  tho  apparatus,  as  therein  shown. 

A.  I  knew  then  what  they  were  designed  to  rep¬ 
resent,  hut  it  was  not  necessary  for  me  to  under¬ 
stand  the  operation  to  make  the  drawing. 

3-  X‘Q-  1!lit  you  did  understand  their  operation 
at  that  timei 

A.  Yes,  I  think  I  did. 

33  x-Q.  Do  you  know  as  much  about  them  now 
as  you  did  then? 

A.  Yes. 

x-Q.  You  know  i 

3  tliai: 

i  did  then,  do 

A.  No;  I  don't  know  as  I  do.  Mv  knowledge  of 
t“e  modus  operamli  is  the  same  now  as  then. 

3.5  x-Q.  And  as  I  understand  you,  your  knowl¬ 
edge  now  as  well  as  then,  is  the  result  of  simply  in¬ 
specting  the  sketches. 

A.  Knowledge  of  them,  yes. 

30  x-Q.  Describe  the  figure  3  of  Exhibit  Ft 

A.  It  is  a  dymano  machine,  two  main  brushes 
from  which  tho  main  circuit  is  taken,  and  a  single 
brush  worked  automatically  through  an  adjustable 
handle,  which  single  brush  takes  off  more  or  less 
current  as  lamps  are  added  to  or  taken  from  the 
mam  circuit,  in  order  that  they  may  be  constant  in 

their  illuminating  effects  by  regulating  the  field  or 

generating  capacity  of  tho  machine.  That,  is  as  I 
understand  it.  In  other  words,  an  automatic  regu¬ 
lator.  ° 

3 1  x-Q.  In  order  to  increase  the  strength  of  the 
"urrent  on  the  main  or  lamp  circuit  must  the  third 

vn  as  shown  in  figure  3? 

A.  It  must  n 

18  x-Q.  And  to  decrease  the  strength  of  tho  cur¬ 
rent  in  the  main  circuit  it  must  move  down? 

A.  Yes.  It  approaches  or  recedes  from  the  point 
of  maximum  effect. 


'f  tlie  third  hrusli  six 
'f  sketch  E? 

■•iy  vou  understood  tlio 
."■•'oil  Mr.  Edson  nre| 

v"i'k  in  this  building, 
liu  entire  year  of  ISSI  i 
f'°m  -Menlo  Park 
year  I  was  located  in 

•  of  your  employment 
Now  York' 

esc  sketches  D  and  E 

Edison’s  habit  in  i 
f  when  he  banded  v< 

th^case^i,"^  UliS  fur  Intent," 

found  that  Edison's 
the  issues  in  its  con- 

S.  D.  Mott. 

Richard  N.  Dyer. 

Riohard  X.  Dvki!,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf  14= 
of  1  homos  A.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes 
and  says  as  follows: 

I  am  the  patent  solicitor  for  the  Edison  Electric 
Eight  Company  and  have  been  since  the  first  of 
August,  1SS2.  I  have  been  the  patent  solicitor  for 
Mr.  Edison  personally  since  the  first  of  February, 

1SS2.  Before  that  time,  from  the  12th  of  May,  issi’ 

I  was  employed  in  the  office  of  Major  Z.  F.  Wilbur’ 
who  was  the  patent  solicitor  for  the  Edison.Elec-  ue 
trie  Light  Company. 

About  the  7th  of  February.  1SS2,  I  received  by 
mail  from  Mr.  Edison,  ho  being  then  temporarily  at 
Menlo  Park,  instructions  to  prepare  the  application 
for  patent  which  is  in  this  interference.  Those  in¬ 
structions  consisted  of  a  sketch  made  by  Mr.  Edison 
and  a  description  in  his  handwriting,  addressed  to 
me,  signed  with  Mr.  Edison’s  initials  and  dated  Feb¬ 
ruary  (Ith,  1SS2. 

(The  sketch  and  description  referred  to  are  put  in  147 
evidence  and  marked  Edison’s  Exhibit  G.) 

The  application  was  prepared  by  me  immediately 
after  receiving  these  instructions.  It  was  signed  by 
Mr.  Edison  February  2Sth,  1SS2,  and  sworn  to  by 
him  on  the  first  of  March,  1SS2. 

The  application  was  then  turned  over  by  mo  to 
Major  Wilbur  for  filing,  since  it  was  to  be  assigned 
to  the  Light  Company.  ’ 

He  did  not  file  the  case,  but  kept  it  with  a  large 
number  of  other  cases  for  which  he  collected  the  148 
first  Government  fees  from  the  Light  Company, 
and  after  the  first  of  August,  ’S2,  when  I  took 
charge  of  the  Light  Company’s  soliciting  business, 

I  obtained  this  case  with  others  from  Major  Wilbur 
and  filed  it. 

Before  preparing  the  application  in  the  interfere 
ence,  recollecting  that  I  had  seen  something  similar 
among  Mr.  Edison’s  caveat  drawings  in  Major  Wil¬ 
bur’s  possession,  I  looked  over  those  drawings  and 
found  the  drawing  Exhibit  F.  jThe  principles  em- 

Richard  N.  Dyer. 

9  bodied  in  figures  :i  and  4  of  Exhibit  F,  I  included  in 
tlw  application:  the  pencil  marks  <m  figures  :!  and 
4  were  made  l.y  me  at  that  time,  Fehruarv,  1882,  to 
guide  the  draftsman  in  making  the  drawing  for  the 
application.  This  drawing.  Exhibit  F.  was  among 
the  loose  drawings  in  .Major  Wilbur's  ollice,  when  i 
entered  Ins  employ  on  the  12th  of  .May.  issi.  At 
that  time  I  made  a  careful  examination  of  the 
™"K8  1,1  llis  ‘dtp'e  and  Exhibit  F  was  among 

9  During  the  summer  of  tsse.  from  about  the  first 
of  M.i)  until  the  last  of  September,  mv  oflice  was 
ocated  at  Menlo  Park.  X.  j.  The  application  upon 
uinfi  ■T!,,SV-  I':'li'0,1's  Kxl'M  A.  was 

“Mi  ir  'r  WIS  . . .  m"  -''"'do  Park,  on  the 

i th  ol  June,  ss-<  Meit  ti„„.  ,  ■  ,  . 

Mr.  Edison's  house  and  »!!«  nit' '■ rat  5,'T 
phed  with  current  from  a  dwianio  located  ‘in  The 
machine  shop.  At  about  M,.'.  ,,  , 

■*» r:; 

malic"?  *1^  "il'!  P^'  il  whh'an  auVo- 

1c  ,|  V1 . U'  '  "  ,K  "  h  »„  uni 

arm  adjustable 
carried  the  two 
•Id  coils  of  tho 
stra  brush,  the 

independently  of  the  voice 

machine  was  conned  *  I  ,  .  "  c°ils  °r  *l‘o 

other  end  to  one  „r '  n  "  ■  'Xh~l  ,ll  us|b  tho 
brush  was  shifted  l<  10  "Mm  '"'ashes.  The  extra 
electro  magnetic  mg,'  , 't"  alL‘  ".e  machine  by  an 
shown  in  the  Patent' Exh'i'bit'A!1'"''1"1'1'115’  'ikotl,afc 
CWEXAJ„xATI0N  byGko  p  IjA|tTovi 

collected  the'first°fe^0fromTh  p'?  Major  WiIb'»- 

C<A.  fThfe  rase  w  ^iideieS  ‘U  Light 

which  I  received  from"0??  1'‘l'7.';  "u"ll)L'r  of  cases 
after  taking  charge  of  tlm'^b  "bUr1  iramodi“toIy 
1  was  4l'cn  informed  hv  the  otr  ® !Uld  Up°n  which 
-  th0  oftcew  of  the  Light. 

Company  Major  Wilbur  had  collected  the  first 

j,I  y0U  hn,vo  no,  knowledge  on  the  sub- 

I  correct^  y<*  I,ave I,eai'a  fl°m  hcareay;  am 

A.  lean  go  further,  and  state  that  I  examined 
the  accounts  of  Major  Wilbur  with  the  Light 
Company  and  saw  his  vouchers  for  the  fir 
fees  on  the  cases  referred  to,  of  which  the  applica¬ 
tion  m  this  interference  was  otic.  I  also  at  that 
time  examined  reports  of  Major  Wilbur  to  the  Light 

ft, 2 1,1  which  he  slatei1  t,Mt  --  SS 

Ploaso  P'oduce  the  voucher  given  by  Manor 
case>U1  t0  t  lC  C°"11,any  for  tlle  first  fees^in  this 

Adjourned  to  November  Gth,  at  10  A.  M. 

Present— Gkouge  P.  B.uiton,  Esq.,  for  Scribner; 
U  1 .  Scribner  m  person,  and  Richard  N.  Dye r 
for  Edison.  ’ 


A.  1  now  produce  a  copy  of  Major  Wilbur’s  ac¬ 
count  for  the  month  of  March,  1882.  (The  said 

Fvbil1?1?0  lnf  n  evidenco  and  marked  Edison's 
Exlnlat  H,  and  the  original  of  said  account  is  sub¬ 
mitted  to  counsel  for  Scribner  for  examination  and 
comparison  with  copy  and  will  be  produced  at  the 
hearing  if  called  for).  The  application  in  this  in¬ 
terference  beam  Mr.  Edison’s  personal  No.  401,  and 
by  such  number  it  is  referred  to  in  Major  Wilbur’s 
account.  The  first  item  of  March  28th  in  that  ac¬ 
count  is  for  first  fees  paid  upon  a  number  of  cases, 

Richard  N.  Dyer. 

of  which  tins  case  404  is  one.  The  account  shows 
that  during  the  month  of  March,  .Major  Will,,  ,.  J 
ceived  S050,  part  of  which  was  to  he  applied  to  the 
pa) mentor  Government  fees.  Ono  of  those  fees 

A.  It  is. 

Kick’d  N.  Dyek. 

behalf^  hot'  E,  f  ,a  Wltness  Produced  on  his  own 
!™\  *  g  d"ly  sworn’  deposes  and  says,  in 
as  fohows-qUeSt'0nS  propos°d  hJ'  Hiciiard  N.  Dyek, 

pal*™-  iS  y°1"'  "amo-  age-  residence  and  occu- 

A.  Ihomas  A.  Edison;  37;  residence,  New  York- 
occupation,  inventor.  ’ 

*?•  W',on  firs,t>  if  ever’  did  you  conceive  the  in- 
en  r  Win  I  '0r  dy»a,no-electric  machines 

/  3  "f  (ll°  Principle  of  an  adjustment  at  the 
n“t;  C  machine  for  effecting  the  field 

A.  About  December,  1SS0. 

3  Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  the  regulator  vou 
then  conceived?  - 

Platd1’oneJl,P,0ymP"t;  °f  a”  extm  l,n,sh  o''  ^shes 
placed  on  the  commutator  to  obtain  a  lower  elec- 

ne°tsni°tlV<!  f°1C0  t0  °,lei'Kiso  ll]e  field  of  force  mug- 

*9'  ™  th<2  concePtio“  include  any  means  for 
' a'3  Ing  tlle  energY  of  the  field  of  force  magnets? 

Objected  to  as  leading. 

Q.  Yes  sir;  the  brushes  were  to  be  moved  from 
high  to  low  potential  or  vice  versa  to  re-uhte  the 
strength  of  the  field  of  force  magnets.  They  were 
Lshes.atljUSted  independently  of  the  main  line 

its°nQ’  I,n™W  I?'*  y°Ur  attention  to  sketches  Exliib- 
itsD  and  E.^  Do  you  recognize  these  sketches? 

0  Q.  What  do  they  represent? 

A.  Exhibit  D  represents  a  pair  of  extra  brashes 
on  the  commutator,  which  brushes  are  connected  to 
the  field  of  force  magnets  and  are  movable  in  either 
direction  to  obtain  no  current  or  a  current  of  vari¬ 
able  strength.  Exhibit  E  shows  in  the  lower  part 
an  extra  brush  connected  to  the  field  of  force  mag- 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

movwnent  of  (ho  extra  brush  serving  to  i.'.cr  'l 
^hrt|eslro,,Kth  of  , ho  current  in  tho  field  of 

skotdo  s1""  ■U",i*xtr;ihn,shessui.JK»rted  in  those 

the  i.ifiin  1  i i .V.'r.rnlh!?1  1  '•"! arm  in,U‘l"'ndent  of 

ill"  i„  ",Z  .  ■' ’  U'l"r'■|,  n™ >"  capable  of  inov- 

(Ur,,  1lnV"‘m  ro"„d ‘la- shaft  of  the  anna- 

two  or  three  days  before  January  ad, 

u'aci,  thc  word 


ado;  F'*  ""'o  these  skotche 

•e  embodied  in  a  cavea 
btsman,  Mr.  S.  D.  Mott 
ention  to  tho  drawinj 
e  this  drawing' 

>'eat  dm  wing. 

I13'>  does  it  correspom 

10  crV'no!;-'  ^‘nilaiT,  1881. 

»OT°u,Wog„i2SluJ^l“tte,,‘i«»  to  Exhibit  G 
A-  Yes.  sir.  ’ 

18  a  letter  from  mo  to  . . - 

,n>’  Patent  solicitor 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

n  s  ,  ene  ’lC7,neCtC(1  witht,'°  of  force  mag. 
ntr.s  to  energize  the  same.  fa 

\S  ?■  Nv,1°  »|ado  the  sketch  of  Exhibit  G? 
m  n'w,ktCl  alKl  'V1'iting  a,,e  my  own. 

‘l,i!  ***  "”■> 

A.  February  Cth,  lSS-\ 

o.m<Jnmm^?,'Tk7SO  °f  the  illventi°"  of  ^ 
matmet  of  i  ,,usllf  for  energizing  the  field 
bu  ,  dynamo-electric  machine,  the  extra 
I/  I  '  ,  l.lpon  ‘he  commutator  with 

entl,  oftl  ,  lh  Jb  «  stable  independ- 
21  Q.  When? 

T, '  f 

nctly  the  time.'  0t  reme,,,bor  L>x'  171 

»<  »pp»- 

JS&  £y’o7  ~  sub~l“”“F  »'  *“>  to- 

A.  I  think  a  number  of  experiments  as  to  the 
JlayflSSa0"  ^  PlaCinfif  th<i  b,'Ushes  made  in 

24  Q  Who  conducted  these  last  experiments?  *  ‘2 
A.  My  assistant,  John  Ott. 

hibop  In°W  Ca“  yOUV  attention  to  Edison’s  Ex- 
mbit  C.  Do  you  recognize  the  same? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

20  Q.  What  is  it? 

A.  It  is  an  extra  swinging  arm  for  carrvimr  the 

netsraandU  1leSC0DI1?Cted  *°  ^  RM  of  f«™g. 
Paiis^  I  USGv°n  a“Z”  ^“amo  at  Menlo 
Paik  some  time  m  May,  1882. 

a  i*  ....  .  . . ""mni  hi  nnsiunn; 

'  l"",t'  . . . . 

TVMi,'al  <ii.i  th.-s 

.  '  "  wlM,  h  ‘I-  main  brushes: 


'  tin*  in'iin  (Jut'  I  i  ,l"  ‘‘‘Ij'istaMc  iiKlepenileiit 
'■it  could  iJ  •,  S  '  :‘n"  s",ll:lt  "K,n‘  loss  cm-- 
. . '  pass  through  the  field  0f 

™  *«•  J ltl»  nT.^vlt7fci*7^mi'k?  °f  ll1"  "n,n 

vent  inn  xv, is  c  I, ''i*  't,',ls  '"ado  in  which  this 

-ii.  r' . Ill,- 1 i  f,r  Ji,„e. 

"  . .  .  if  tliis  . . . 

B  consist i.>(]  of  -in 

r;f  "as  independent  ,‘v  ',n'Sl' 

01 »  lu  usi,  li^iii, r ,  *  J  ,  0,1  conjinu- 
«»H.  a  movement" l,.,,.]."  '  * ‘  ‘  1,1  t,l<!  fiel<]  of  force 
tator  of  tf,j_s  j.”  ?  ol;  ll,1'v.ii-<|  on  the  com- 

” ‘S' 

l;  B-v  an  imienenllont11'*1"":!1  "''Juntcclf 
laticallv?  ,0'°me,.t  effected  %  Ilund  opau. 
iQl  . . 


Jiich  carries  an 

lnnsh  testing  upon  the  commutator  and  independ- 
ontly  movable  round  the  surface  of  the  commute- 
tor  by  means  of  a  worm  and  worm-wheel  worked 
back  and  forward  by  means  of  ratchet  wheels  and 

■JO  Q.  For  what  purpose  was  this  drawing  made! 
“"’as  a  drawing  made  for  the  workmen  to 
make  the  apparatus  by. 

37  ?;  }Vns  tl,is  apparatus  constructed? 

A.  Tins  aiiparatus  was  constructed  and  connected 
to  a  dynamo  machine  and  tested,  and  is  the  same 
h  «'o  exception,  perhaps,  of  some  changes  in  the 
automa  tic  mechanism  for  working  the  arm  back  and 
fonxard  as  was  used  to  regulate  the  dynamo  which 
lighted  my  house,  which  I  have  already  testi- 
fieu.  J 

■iSQ.  Who  made  this  drawing,  Exhibit  B’ 

^  A.  I  believe  it  was  made  by  John  Ott.  my  assist- 

39  Q.  directions'; 

A.  Under  my  directions. 

•JO  Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  the  directions  you 
gave  Otti  J 

A.  I  explained  what  I  desired  to  do  and  gave  him 
the  general  design  of  the  mechanism  and  arrange¬ 
ment  of  the  parts.  r 

41  Q.  Under  whose  directions  were  the  experi¬ 
ments  on  the  extra-brush  regulator  which  preceded 
this  drawing,  made? 

A.  I  made  a  great  many  of  them  myself,  and  Mr. 
Ott  made  a  number  under  my  direction. 

SEL,  for  Scribner: 

„  4,2„X;Q-  The  machines  illustrated  in  the  sketch  of 
Exhibit  G,  also  lower  Figure  of  Exhibit  E  and  Fig¬ 
ure  3  of  Exhibit  F,  are  all  substantially  three-brush 
machines,  are  they  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

43  x-Q.  Look  upon  Figures  1,  2  and  3  of  vour  an- 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

181  Plication-drawing  and  st-ito  u-lm) i. .  .  ,, 

chine  illustrated  by  the  Lhl  fj,n. u'  "  '°  "m‘ 

■  «>'•*■ La  SIS'*'  *  "  “  “  «*• 

f:  Uw  "'ay  ho  considered  so 

«  ..»=!, In. 

'Si; ,  “t” 

of  the  field  of  force  nntmet  l  •  ^  1,1 10  end 
ordinary  main  lino  brush  L'',miectwl  to  tho 

182  W.X-Q.  state  whether*  or  „h  p  ,  . 

figure  four  of  Exhibit  E  arn  ,  J "t  "  ”!  D  and 
Plication  drawing  renivseot  [  1,1  of  -vo,‘r  «p- 

m  which  the  field  of  force  is  so’  !r  i'1 °f llT,m»i<>s 

. —  <»• 

the  comnisfafor.  except  througli 

183  of  detyQ'- ^’Sdhh'a'^fJ'";  ,aUerPart 

of  determining  whether  •,  ,,lu  purpose 

type  would  ho  a  success  J '  1"t‘  ol'  t,lis  latter 
machine  in  which  2  ,  I  mean  the 

supplied,  independent, 'fti  °f.  f</,Ce  "«ag,,ot  was 


of  taki,,g 

Perimentsi  3°U  conciu(1o  from  those  ex- 

!84  A.  lhat  one  brush  only  was 

i‘  X-Q-  That  is  did  vn,  accessary. 

Waf  superior  to  tu-0?  J°U  C0,,cl"<]c  tiiat  ono  brush 
fs  x  o°r0t  r0,no,"ber. 

D‘.  ».■»..)-  mu  11,0  hinslies  i„  D  and 
A-  Yes,  sir. 

50  X*Q.  Tho  third  hniqli  p  ,  , 

JlS"?11  ****S£i;,K 

sidfoT^;  W0Ul<l itnot  rc,’uce  the  resistance  of  that 
to *• 

!V-  I^lt  "’as  standing  still  it  would 

f‘  -  -  ,u  £ 

!v  "^*°n  ,:ovoIv'ng  at  a  high  rate  of  speed; 

-A.  JNo,  sir;  the  resistance  of  the  armature  is  ,l„. 
same,  but  the  resistance  of  the  external  circuit  con 

henc  ‘  f|Ofthatp0I'ti0n  °f  th°  a™aturo  is  lower’ 
liuice  that  portion  does  more  work,  but  as  there  is 
firlu  i  p  changes  per  minute  tlie  work  as 

r  " 
what  is  doet0tHVe  f°T  is  "earl-v  the  same,  except 
Jiat  is  due  to  tho  slight  drop  i„  the  armature  it- 

thfin'to,'^'1'0"^  is  this’if  >'ou  are  to  measure 
‘"t  lUal  resistance  of  your  machine,  making 
would  nnt  bet'v'een  the  brushes  D  and  D\ 

tTwhich  heeevf’S  ““t  °£  H,e  hnlf  of  the  ““hino 
inch  the  extra  brush  is  connected  he  lower  than 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

.  u,ue  ls  no  brush  connected,  ; 

shown  m  figure  :!  of  your  application  drawing* 
a.  No,  sir;  for  the  reason  that  the  exterior  <■! 

. •? 


m  the  slimmer  of  fsso;  '  Kt 

„;V,  Tlio  restatnncoor  the  field  of  force  magnet  of  , 
j  machine  upon  which  this  regulator  worked  fo 
Ihglitmg  my  house  was  about  .10  oi„lls.  °,KU,f° 

loi  r lUlLr  ^  "  °rk  »  "«  «  fc-  Mi  . 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

field  of  ‘force '  ma  ,  'net  ““  ^  “f  »>< 

with  on  •,  „•  "Lie  ever  able  to  work 

A.  I  do  not  think  it  was  tried  on  ,iv,  , 

K“'",,rora . — 

PTO<«1*.-  or  jot,. 

A.  About  an  ohm  and  a  half. 

3,  slieet  two'' of  you?  )fr  S  ^T"’”  •  " 

adjusted  to  the  0f  t '  r  "*  t  W:,S 

opposite  that  upon  which  D>  resi  't|  r°n  <,irect,y 
of  the  machine  was  shunto, l  ti  ’  1  0  fu  1  cur'ent 
force  magnets,  was  it  not  ?  11 0l1^1  ^le  fluid  of 


Sr" 3”1 »  “» of  lamp, 


h‘  l*“1'  »1~>  »«•  nomJof  hjT 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

that  ?m  aCtUal  PnlCtice’  or  do  you  remember  about  103 

A.  My  impression  is  that  it  didn’t  pass  the  top  of 
the  commutator  towards  D>.  I  do  not  remember 

Titos.  A.  Edison. 

Notary’s  Certificate. 

State  of  New  York,  ) 

County  of  Now  York,  )  ss:  -01 

I,  William  H.  Alden,  Jr.,  a  Notary  Public, 
within  and  for  the  County  and  State  of  New  York, 
do  horeby  certify  that  the  foregoing  deposition  of 
William  II.  Meadowcroft  was  taken  on  behalf  of 
Thoniiis  A.  Edison,  in  pursuance  of  the  notices 
hereto  annexed,  before  me,  at  No.  05  Fifth  avenue, 
in  the  City  of  Now  York,  in  said  county,  on  the  4th 
day  of  October,  1SSI3;  that  said  witness  was  by  me 
dul)  sworn  before  the  commencement  of  his  tcsti-  202 
mony;  that  the  testimony  of  said  witness  was 
written  out  by  Edward  H.  Pyatt  in  my  presence; 
that  the  opposing  party,  Chas.  E.  Scribner,  was 
present  in  person  and  by  his  counsel,  Geo.  P. 
Barton,  Esq.,  during  the  taking  of  said  testimony; 
that  the  opposing  party,  Richard  II.  Mather,  was 
absent;  that  said  testimony  was  commenced  and 
concluded  on  the  4th  day  of  October,  1SSU;  that  I 
am  not  connected  by  blood  or  marriage  with  either 
of  said  parties,  or  interested  directly  or  indirectly  203 
in  tlie  matter  in  controversy. 

In  testimony,  whereof,  I  have  hereunto  set  my 
hand  and  affixed  my  seal  of  office,  this  15th  day  of 
November,  13S3. 

Wjt.  H.  Alden,  Jr., 

[seal.]  Notary  Public  (03), 

N.  Y.  Co. 


Edison’s  Exhibit  G,  November  5,  1883. 

Wm.  H.  Meadowchoft,  Notahv  Public,  N.  Y.  Co. 

Dick— Please  write  up  the  specifications  for  this 
patent,  and  keep  it  until  I  got  in. 

Method  of  deriving  two  independent  circuits  from 
a  dynamo  or  magnetic  electric  machine,  each  of 
winch  has  a  different  electromotive  force  regulatablv 
independent  of  each  other,  fi  d  ext.  i  ci  cu  t  u  e 
ful  for  working  the  tiehl  of  force  magnets  or  the 
field  of  force  magnets  mnlliple-arc’d  across  a  circuit 
containing  lamps  requiring  lower  volts  or  emf 
X  is  the  bobbin;  C  and  G”  are  the  regular  brushes; 
1  and  2  the  regular  circuit  across  which  lamps  re¬ 
quiring  the  highest  volts  are  placed,  a  b  are  extra 
brushes  one  above  the  centre  the  other  below  the 
centre;  say  several  blocks  to  the  right  and  left  of  C. 
these  brushes  are  connected  to  an  arm,  and  are 
swung  around  by  tbe  handle,  the  brushes  being 
pivoted  ns  well,  the  handle  may  be  worked  so  tbe 
'  brushes  a  c  are  brought  in  line  with. C,  or  by  putting 
handle  at  angle  )  til  a  1  b  are  fur¬ 
thest  from  the  centre  or  line  or  block  upon  which  C 
rests,  there  is  the  greatest  electromotive  force;  these 
two  brushes  a  b  are  connected  together,  forming  one 
pole  of  the  second  circuit,  while  C  forms  the  other 

a  and  b  when  connected  together  do  not  short 
circuit  the  wire  on  the  machine  as  both  sides  of 
the  bobbin,  are  sending  currents  in  the  same  direc¬ 
tion.  Fig.  2  shows  the  two  arms  on  separate  swings, 
so  they  may  be  brought  to  or  from  the  centre  inde¬ 

Febuuaiiv  0,  1SS2. 

T.  A.  E. 



Interferences ;  Magneto  Electric  Machines. 





Edison  -j 


Lane  1 

Rose  j 

|  Cash  A  | 

|  Gray  f 

Gilliland.  J 

Edison  &  Johnson.  J 


Case  A. 

ously  during  the  operation  of  the  machine. 

In  Case  B,  neither  Lane  or  ft  r 
tTtimr!"-r’  an(1  “ceorJinrriv J“hnson  •w'-e  taken 
3  for  Lane  and  f  1881,  is  the  oar- 

°r  K'^on  4  Johni  °Ct°ber  «-  1880,  the  earliest  d“  e 

[r>  these  eases  th  >  F 

ave'do  ^  ' rCnces  awarde(1 

r  °  £  S0’  30,1  the  contest  &  ,  °ne0ftlle  ^''ors 
nd  Gray.  “  u°"  *>Wv  between  Edison 


»  Ao<o,  and  exDeri- 

of  1880  ,  “  publil:  den,i,,,d  aros«.  which  was ’in  the  fall 

tolfer^svt'0  °‘  inV#B<io"  1110,1  ma>’  bc  to  be  Oc- 

Edison  is  a  party  to  both  cases,  A  and  B. 

and  a  manufacture  oomninioncing  then,  and  continued  there 
after  to  a  limited  extent.  onunue.t  there- 

As  to  Case  B,  his  proofs  disclose  a  caveat  tiled  May  11 
18/1,  and  a  patent  Xo.  123,005,  granted  January  23  m7o’ 
ovcHug  substantially  the  issue  in  this  ease,  and  the’  same’ 
)  i*  aside  and  taking  up,  and  manufacture  as  in  Case  A. 

From  the  foregoing  summary  it  is  evident  that  in  Imtl, 
cases,  A  and  B,  Edison  is  called  upon  to  prove  «  ,i„(„  ,  - 

To  make  this  proof  in  this  ease,  Edison  presents: 

1.  a  no  model  exhibit  “  Mnirneto  Si«-n-.i  iw  »  • 

1872  ,,‘h  the  attachment  reproduced  in  dofted  "Jl"  ft! 

with  the1  is  ’  “i  ™S  !aSt  ,,an,0d  exl,ibit-  as  enmpurod 
with  the  issue,  shows  in  combination,  a  main  circuit  3  3  a 
reciprocating  magneto  electric  machine,  A.  E.  ,\[  a  shunt 
W  v°o  0,rcult  1>  2> i,roull<1  the  machine,  and  means  II.  X. 
short"  '*  f?r.  outomutically  controlling  and  breaking  such 
short  circuit  immediately  upon,  a,  1  cot  t  isly  I  rh.g  the 

of  the  issul  11 8,,0W8  thc  Preci8e  combination 

:  8  e  P  ng  ,n  Pr0018Bb’  ‘he  8“mc  way,  and  with 
precisely  the  same  result  as  called  for  by  the  issue. 

Magneto  Cases. 

i °f  Q"*  ■*  to  hour- 

That  there  is  no  proof  that  Edison  invented  this  exhibit 
Magneto  Signal  Box,  to  which  it  is  answered :  “  ’ 

in  \m;^r  the  i,,ve"tiou «■ *«• 

S^sSISV^sl't?  F'"8"  ““HS 

16>  18 (Force,  4,  7;)  (Wurth,  8,’lJ)  ^  3’  10’  12’  13’ 

thai  it  "to¬ 


form  covered  IheissueTn  "this  ]nterfereX*1'l,'-t  ‘‘8  COmP,eto 

strenuously  that  the  oxbibU  wood' "  T  -TM 
‘hiring,  T,  or  without,  for  these  reasons!  vt:  ^  ** 

leased,  wouldlmmedhitely lie  drawn'*!)’  k  boin«  rc' 
o,  cutting  out  the  box  by  slim  t  v  1  TV  the  8top> 
off  the  sigual  before  it  was  entirely  sent  ’  “*  "'°Uld  0,,t 
If  the  spring,  T.  is  not  „D„,i  , 

m  im‘-  *»  —It  would  b. n "'Sl,t 

As  this  matter  evidomlv  I,,. 

the  counsel  for  Gray,  and  sim.sT"?  "'e'5''t  in  tllB  mind  of 

s.j,  would  be  sent  but’  !  *  "lt  "ith  t,le  spring,  T  a 
enough,  (a.  34.)  ’  1  llle  signalling  was  not  birr 

ms  — » "■« 

fcctly,’’  («.  ‘  ("•  34 >)  that  “  it  operated  per- 

si'Hng  TtKamct  Xd^ll'l0"'’  "'«• 

-er  the  spring  S  S  mil r  “  ^  u,,-v  "her. 

statement  that  the  spring  S  S  w,  ’T  l  i",S'V°r,'‘I  ''V  tllu 
capacity  to  nmve  the  hamlle  over  t  8l,n"=’  ‘v*tl.  the 

required,  that  the  downward  mot  '"UC1  la,«er  area  than 

"P  the  spring  to  a  certain  extent  "am]"!,0'  ‘he  .,la",He 
up  the  handle  as  far  as  desired ’and  8  “"winding  carried 
run  down,  and  if  the  instrume,  t  1  ^  SI’n,’»  coul<l  not 

"°'v  it  did  so  at  the  ?,°CS  "0t  °I*™tc  perfectly 

the  hearing  below.  t-Mdence  was  taken,  and  at 

^  not' c'an'fhr  SaU^’  '!  "  tbat  t,1B  ««ao 

8lg"als,  or  for  „„yt|,i“,  btIt  a  ’Z-t  ‘°* -°  tn,n8,nit 

°.r  "tagneto  electric  machine,  vlS has T°'""1  ■ 
tncans  for  automatically  eontrollimr  L',ruu,t  il"<l 

circuit  immediately  ,,non  an  l’ro"kl"ff  the  short 

ration  of  the  machine.  ‘  d  "U°"sl-V  dl'ri,,S  'he  ope- 

“II  the  elements  'iVum  £uetl<,'T''e-t°  . . .  1)118 

tho  Purposes  describe^  Z'ZT 00! Md  for 

As  n  matter  of  fact,  the  “  magneto  signal  box”  embraced 
the  issue,  whether  the  spring  T  was  or  «>■■■-  rot  -ii  n  ■  it 

S-  fj',0n  r0(mm;c<1  thnt  *Pri,,S  t0  *"“>«* ‘‘>»o  operation* 
bettei  for  a  particular  purpose. 

termsAoftt0l,tc'iSsnneCt-i0',''rfe<1  1,1  '"'S,,mo"t  beIo'v>  «bo 
eh  l  ”  L  !  <li'"amo  or  electric 

chine,  do  not  embrace  sucl.  an  electric  imiehine  ns  tl.-.t 
shown  m  Exhibit  2,  it  is  answered :  . 

«  or  ■■  . . .  ™- 

°rT‘\  'lwr"1 

6.  Furthermore,  it  is  now  i  . 

Patent  Office,  that  the  tern  "'Stool  t,1C 

machines  ”  include  all  kinds  of  Jicctriwd „ 

tors-any  electrical  machine  which  has*  capac  t  .t, m°' 


plied  from  an  external  source.  'C  t‘ncr®’  >*  sup. 

7.  In  answer  to  the  possible  objection  time  • 

struments  of  Edison  and  of  Gray  w  ‘C  oxh,Wt  1,1 

same  purpose,  it  is  urged  that  the  ^ 

issue,  and  even  if  it  had  been  o  erw  '  ,  pi“'t  of  1111 

two  instruments  are  strictly  analogous.'’  °  pUri,08C8  of  t,1< 


seems  to  hive  implsodTlmE.vnn  •’’“'‘"'‘i ?'Ul  tl,e  arS»men 
this  exhibit  represents  only  !„  abu'^0”,,t0rfor?,,C09. ‘'m' 

3  auundonod  experiment,  be 

cuiise  it  has  been  lurgelv  brokon  . . 

aside  so  long.  ‘  iu"1  '^ausc  it  was  laid 

To  this  it  is  answered — 

wires  and  ordinary  !en„  '  t  ""I  '  L,LU"C 

armature,  the  spiral  spring  T,  aut^UlS"* 

The  instrument  itself,  iu  its  r  ’  . 

■t  had  all  of  these  parts  There  i ,  ‘ ""hcatM  ‘>'“1 

evidence  thnt  it  had  all  of  these  parts.'1"  °"  "W<l<!  ‘,,C 

2.  Neither  is  there  evidence  that  the  ,  , 

up,  i»  the  usual  sense  of  the  word  ].\|L„  s...„ '™Sf  ’™ke" 
missing  parts  were  mi  1  *]  .  b\\ tain  that  the 

only  one  of  the  magnets  fo,  o“  "'w'0','  aWo 
he  withdrew  the  magnets’ for  ,7  "  ‘  s"'oars  tllat 

late  in  the  summer  of  1870  j 41"*! '',IOI,,a!  work” 
binding  posts  were  then  in  order,  (a.’  23.')  ^  ^  am‘ 

3.  The  removal  of  these  parts  hmd  !i  ,1 
it  was  with  the  knowledge  or  Jo  rt  w"0  11,01 

not  such  a  breaking  up  a's  would  ,1  ,  . .  -  fd,8on)  'Vila 

donrnent,  and  Mr.  Edison’s  testimony  is*  clear  ‘T  °f  t?"' 
tbat  he  never  intended  to  aUmdon  «,  }  ',d  C°,,Cl,W,V0 


Jtwa  insisted  in  the  rgument  below  that  the  only  ev! 
deuce  about  the  removal  of  the  T  ,  , 

"““"'l'  “  •'»  ■«!  i«  dr. 

3.  ott  swears  that  he  saw  it  in  1870.  and  the  lever  X  was 

. . 

. . 

lw  m,dits 

th_°  fPri"S  T,  anTtho'SSolU  JJ?  u“0,,t,°".  di"*t«l  to 
°f  wlnuli  Mr.  Edison  lias  a  perfect  rclnll'18,-0  “  Kl"gle  do,lli,> 

'vitnesses  an  imperfect  recollection  “,"1  tho  otller 

»  Gno‘tol-durtl!Lfi,LtnlIn'tUr  ^  “  E,,l’°"  118  well 
public  was  ready  for  them;  one  "ftcr'I'T 1,8  t,lc 
d,l<  tho  other  after  a  delay  of  fiix-  v  ‘  ,U  “?  " 1  hvo  .'care, 
»o  adverse  right  arose  call!,,,,  for  ,)  <I."r,,,«  "M<d‘  time 

gunce  than  that  exhibited.  °  0X0TOw of greater  dill- 
.  5'  11  ,bllo'vs,  therefore,  that  Pd!«  i  ■ 

form",IOn  ,n  i8Sno  *"  fsWllu.l  n°  luced  «*» 
iM=  »"»  abaXedTt,  and™^'  <io  'I*  "(,rk‘ ha v ' 
fights  intervened  and  as  soon  as  fin  T  l,ufu"»  other 
f-rnt,  and  having  been  the  fir  t  '  ,*en,a"d  »*hM  war- 

in  making  application,  is  entitle,!  to" l‘"uIfact,,r*  “'«>  prompt 
date  of  invention,  and  is  entSId  to°f  ^  ^  as  his 

Case  A  over  all  other  contestants  a"'ard  of'  Prioritv,  in 
Hoekhausen  vs.  Weston,  18  0.  G„  857. 

disc  23. 

Here  the  claim  is  of  a  r  • 

•ires  of  construction  adapted  to  oml,rac'ng  font- 

■neat  of  a  sleeve  or  collar  nnJn  a  fU°e  “  ^'^itudinal  mow. 

Gnav’s  Psoops. 

.  Jn  this  case,  as  in  Case  A  i 

invention  in  flow*,,  18*7,A'  WC,  to  1,„,  „,o 

IvKiso.v's  I ’rooks. 

tiled'  «8Javeut  Illy  Ih'VsTl  “/i'.f  UI>.°"  wlli<;,‘  ^ 

and  illustrates  broadly  the  i’i  r l,deMee.>)  wll[c,‘  describes 

"■lion  the  circuit  breukor  wca'ct  l?3.’005'  (iu  widonce,) 
movements  of  a  sleeve  Upon  a  drhl  7  7°  lo."gitudi,‘~; 
also  describes  and  illustrates  tl  •  "g  8laft’  wbich  patent 
described  and  illustrated  in  the”!!!?™/,  th°  '",Ve',t'0,, 
the  issue  inti  0  employed  in  1  cmer  broadly 
■machine,  used  as  a  motor.  1  ^  "  e  ectro  magnetic 

In  the  caveat  ns  well 

eleevc  is  mounted  upo, ,  a  8w ' refcrred  to>  the 
electro  magnetic  machine  w  mn '  10  connectlon  w*th  the 

cations  in  eontroverey  °  rem°te  than  in  the  «PP»- 

On  October  G,  1880,'  Edison  and  Johnson  filed  a  in'  f 
plication  .which  is  embraced  in  th;  .  .  d  a  J°'nt  ap- 

1881  No  oao  eriR  i  granted  to  them  February  22 

ual  jrint  invention  of  Ed^otfS'j^  '^^im  "  ^ 

«*»,  IU  OcMrcr  6, S  "W  “"“  “■ 

moIa  1880'  Hcrgmann,  by  permission  of  Edison  com 
Z  issue  in  Tbr  0  f t,.l0pl10"0  Ca"-b0X08’  emli racing 

To  tills  it  is  answered— 

1.  That  the  invention  made  by  KUison  mwl  i  *.  , 

. . .  «  of  M.v  i,  ,87  '  “  T  . 

. .  .r 

r?“».  -  «-SKc;: 

electric  generators,  nut]  that  tl„.  .In  rS  l,l8lea<i  ol' 

liis  sleeve  was  not  connecter!  ■  up0H  "'1,icl'  ,lc  placed 

*»»  i«  uj whb  \,,e 

same  and  effected  in  the  same  w.‘y  ^  WUS  1,10 

themselves  give  different  titles  Jt  lif- °'  T.he  i"vcnt°w 
Intent  Office  still  another  titin  t"i*  In'’c,,t,0I)St  and  the 
any  uses  for  his  invention  td,80n  does  not  describe 

The  principal  difference  between  ,i  „  • 
and  illustrated  in  Edison’s  caveat  „  ^  ‘"V<-’n"0"8  ‘'escribed 
t0,U  ■  d  I'  <-  .1  ve  tion  in  issue  be  ,  ff ^  ^  mei- 
an  electrical  machine  as  a  motor  and  f  °  emploIme,lt  °f 
connection  with  a  circuit  b  eaker  ?  “8  “ 

hemg  involved  in  tbeir  change  of  en ^  of  0°'>8t™ctio., 
tins  respect  „0  invention  at  aTl  L , there  is  in 
patent  would  cover  the  issue  i„  control  Ed,S0'1’s  caveat  “nd 
The  other  difference,  bein*  £  ?"* 

aP°n  a  driving  shaft  to  operafe  t  drTf  °*T,t  °f  a  8,ceve 

»'g  shaft  is  connected  with  01rcuit  br«aker,  which  driv- 

motely  than  is  done  in  thi  '  ?-  ar,nat«re  shaft  more  re 

question  of  degree,  and  is  aPP>*catious,  is  only  a 

3.  If  it  should  becoulZl‘t8e!fp.ateatabla’ 
comb, nation  in  view  of  Edison’s “eaveat'aud *  pate,ltable 
caveat  and  patent  before 


did  not  abandon  the  same  and  ook  ’  1'r,vWod  tbat  bc' 
invention  before  other 'right.  intarvon"'i  H"dc0n,pleted  the- 
public  demand  called  for  ft.  ’  “nd  "S  800n  as  tbe 

nt  all  before  the  pubHo^IJtd^omo'SnVol’r  °rt,S0  “r°  dilige',eo 
mention,  and  that  was  cvidenflv  hv ,  gC"C,C  °f  8110,1  an 

<«»»'.  o,,;,  I  J’2XZh"mo'"l 

K'i:*ds“  . . . 

St!"''0"1’0"  l,y 

5;  A8  bet'veen  these  contestants  Edison  „•  „  a 

-me0  E  Sr  °f  in  tbo 

date  of  1872.  .  "S  ,SSU°  and  rctai>‘  bb*  original 

■*" ,6/ 

(not  printed.)  Weston  is.  Gray  cl  al., 

in  To^oJ0"  TM  th°  **  t0  Pr°du0°  tb0  b- 

Priority  over  the  other  c’o„testanunt,tlCd  *°  a  j,,dSmoat  of 
any  i^’enrior^at^l'l'in  view°of0Ed'>le  iMn°  disoI°808 

before  mentioned.  f  Ed  8  Caveat  and  patent 

3-  If,  m  view  of  the  same  caveat  and  patent,  the  issue 

BURGOYNC  (Ttl.ohon.  No.  I 

m  THE  MATTER,  of  interference 


APPeVilonofr'^  °f!he  T»leri“'-Sro>»  the  clc- 
mm  ml  In. s  /irehinimin/  s •ta/emei,t. 

Brief  in  Behalf  of  T.  A.  Edison. 

M'.V  it  litcuxe  ,/our  Honor : 

This  application  for  leave  to  amend  the  pivlimi 

”,uSTr‘'  lT  Hl”  »«»■  ™»'; 

on  had  taken  Ins  evidence,  and  before  offering 
«v  lence  in  Ins  own  behalf,  and  it  was  presented  alhdaMts  distinctly  setting  forth  the  chaiac 
,,  of  hl)  amendment  sought,  and  the  reasons  whv 
the  subject  matter  of  the  proposed  amendment  was 
offered  at  that  stage  of  the  proceeding  and  not 
earner.  The  1 1  tio  t  1  1  tl  11 

the  formality  required  by  the  rules  of  the  Patent 
•?nn-ne  ‘"f  tT  to  the  Ex- 

■  n  d'f  f ,  ri  el'e,K'CS'  tl,e"*  "P°n  refusal,  by 
appeal  to,  the  Commissioner  of  Patents 
The  rides  of  the  Patent  Office  in  such  cases  as  the 
J)r0Vil1e  f°!‘  t,le  -'‘I’Pwil  from  the  Examiner 
«.f  Interferences  directly  to  the  Conn  ,«  o  f 
Patents,  but  do  not  provide  for  an  appeal  from  the 
Commissioner  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  and 
hence  the  firet  objection  made  to  this  appeal  by  Nidi- 

clson  is,  that  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  is  without 
jurisdiction  in  the  premises,  and  that,  therefore,  the 
appeal  must  be  dismissed,  and  his  attorneys  have 
made  a  motion  to  that  effect.  Before  proceeding  to 
answer  this  asserted  want  of  jurisdiction,  it  may  he 
well  to  notice  the  fact  that  whilst  the  said  Nichol¬ 
son  founds  his  motion  to  dismiss  upon  the  want  of 
jurisdiction  of  the  Secretary  to  impure  into  the 
merits  of  the  application  to  amend,  in  view  of  rules 
of  practice  approved  by  Hon.  Secretary  of  Interior, 
and  he  also  bases  it  upon  an  alleged  inaccuracy  of 
statement  of  the  facts  in  the  case,  and  of  the  deci¬ 
sion  of  the  Commissioner.  He  thus  denies  jurisdic¬ 
tion  and  then  asks  your  Honor  to  decide  whether 
the  facts  are  not  incorrectly  set  forth,  which,  of 
course,  involves  an  inquiry  into  the  whole  case  be¬ 
fore  it  could  he  dismissed.  Either  the  Secretary  has 
jurisdiction  or  he  lias  not.  If  he  has  jurisdiction  in 
the  enactment  of  rules,  ho  certainly  must  have  in 
their  interpretation  and  enforcement..  If  there  is 
any  inaccuracy  of  statement  in  the  appeal  petition, 
the  Hon.  Commissioner  of  Patents  has  not  discov¬ 
ered  it.  and  it  is  supplemented  and  corrected  by  the 
record,  and  if  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  has  no 
jurisdiction,  then  it  would  he  idle  to  go  into  the 
facts  of  the  case,  to  ascertain  whether  the  second 
ground  of  the  motion  to  dismiss  were  well  or  ill 
founded.  But  is  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  with¬ 
out  jurisdiction?  Jurisdiction  has  been  well  defined 
to  he  judicial  power.  And  if  it  he  found  that  the 
Secretary  has  supervisory  and  revisory  power  over 
the  acts  of  the  Commissioner  of  Patents, it  must  nec¬ 
essarily  follow  that  he  has  jurisdiction  in  this 
matter,  unless  this  supervisory  power,  if  given,  is 
limited  by  some  statutory  restrictions  which  would 
preclude  its  application. 

We  do  not  pretend  to  deny,  that  in  judicial  pro¬ 
ceedings,  it  is  a  well  established  rule,  that  where  a 
matter  is  submitted  to  the  discretion  of  a  tribunal, 
and  that  tribunal  exercises  its  discretion  and  renders 
a  decision,  that  such  decision  is  final,  and  that  from 

it  no  appeal  will  lie.  But  wo  do  say,  that  in  this 
matter,  a  question  of  absolute  right,  assured  by 
statute,  and  the  recognition  of  which  is  rendered 
obligatory  upon  the  Commissioner  hv  the  same 
statute,  is  at  issue,  that  it  is  not  a  mere  discretion¬ 
ary  matter  with  the  Commissioner,  and  that  there¬ 
fore  an  appeal  should  ordinarily  lie  from  adverse 
action.  And  we  further  say,  that  there  is  no  per¬ 
fect  analogy  between  the  relations  of  the  Secretary 
and  Commissioner  and  those  of  an  appellate  and 
lower  Court,  as  is  fully  manifested  upon  exam  ilia- 
ti°n  of  the  patent  laws,  and  that,  therefore,  the 
rules  that  limit  and  restrict  the  powers  of  an  ordin¬ 
ary  appellate  tribunal  should  not  ho  applied  in  as¬ 
certaining  the  extent  of  the  jurisdiction  of  the  Sec- 

Wliat  are  the  relations  of  the  Secretary  of  the  In¬ 
terior  to  the  Commissioner  of  Patents? 

Referring  to  a  few  sections  of  the  Revised  Stat  utes 
of  the  United  States,  we  find,  in  section  47:,,  that 
there  shall  lie  m  the  Department  of  the  Interior  an 
known  as  the  Patent  Office;  in  section  470, 
that  all  the  officers  except  the  Commissioner  and 
Assistant  Commissioner  of  Patents  and  the  Exam¬ 
iners  in  Chief,  shall  he  appointed  by  the  Secretary 
of  the  Interior  upon  the  nomination  of  the 
Commissioner  of  Patents;  in  section  481,  the  Oom- 

l  s  o  t  of  Patents,  muter  the  direction  of  II, e 
SeeretHn/  of  the  Interior,  shall  superintend  or  per¬ 
form  all  duties  respecting  the  granting  and  issuing 
of  patents  directed  by  law:  in  section  483,  the  Com¬ 
missioner  of  Patents,  subject  to  the  approval  of  Hu, 
Secretary  of  the  Interior.  may,  from  time  to  time, 
establish  regulations  not  inconsistent  with  law;  in 
section  4S7,  the  Commissioner  may  refuse  to  recog¬ 
nize  an  attorney,  subject  to  the  approval  of  the  Sec- 
retari/  of  the  Interior. 

It  is  apparent  from  these  sections,  and  others  that 
might  he  referred  to,  that  the  Commissioner  of  Pat¬ 
ents  is  subordinate  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior, 
and  that  he  merely  superintends  and  directs  a  1m- 

reau  of  the  Interior  Department,  under  the  direction 
and  subject  to  the  approval  of  the  Secretary.  The 
Secretary  has  the  statutory  right  of  supervision-and 
control  over  all  of  his  official  acts,  and  peculiarly 
and  specially  so  of  his  acts  affecting  the  granting 
and  issuing  of  patents,  for  section  4S1  provides  that 
“  under  the  direction  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Inte¬ 
rior,  the  Commissioner  “shall  superintend  or  per¬ 
is  f°''m  f"  (,utj?8  respecting  the  granting  and  issuing 
of  patents  directed  by  law,  "  &c.  We  therefore 
submit,  that  it  can  not  admit  of  a  doubt,  that  the 
Secre  ary  of  the  Interior  is,  by  the  law,  clothed 
with  the  power  to  approve,  or  disapprove,  to  ratify 
remind,  or  modify  any  action  of  the  Commissioner 

of  Patents  respect  nig  the  granting  and  issuing  of  pat¬ 
ents,  and  that  being  so,  that  he  has  the  same  power 
over  any  action  of  the  Commissioner  of  Patents  that, 
m  any  stage  of  an  application  for  a  patent  affects  the 
right  to  a  patent,  and  especially  of  an  action  based 
upon  the  misconstruction  of  a  technical  rule  of  prac¬ 
tice  which  threatens  to  deprive  the  inventor  of 
rights  intended  to  he  secured  to  him  by  the  statute 
It  needed  no  rule  of  practice  to  bestow  upon  an  ap- 
plicant  for  a  patent,  in  interference  or  not  in  inter- 
ference,  the  right  to  invoke  the  supervisory  power 
of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior.  The  statute  ere- 
ales  the  rujht  by  imposing  upon  him  the  duty  of 
supervision  and  direction 

ZC  haVU  ,b?fol'e.stat«1’  *  »  '>ot  a  ipiestion  of 
appellate  jurisdiction  in  its  ordinary  sense,  nor  is  it 
mom  V<?,y  :sli?lltly  analogous' to  it.  Further¬ 
more  the  Commissioner  of  Patents  recognizes  the 
propriety  of  the  present  appeal  1  j  j  tt^  l  i  1 
answer  and  not  questioning  the  jurisdiction  of  the 
Secretaiy  of  the  Interior  in  the  case 

iJl  !mlsTtni:y  °[,the  I,ltei'i<”-I>as  jurisdiction  to 
heai  and  determine  tins  application,  is  it  proper  and 
i  glit  that  the  action  of  the  Commissioner  of  Pat- 
,,el'nlit  tlu‘  aitiendment  to  be 
made  to  the  preliminary  st  dement  ho.ild  be  over- 

this  proceeding,  refemne  in  'h,""*  bl's  10^-  *° 
rule  110,  that  he  «  “,"“g  ["n^.^U1,'emeMts.of 

“  possible  for  anv  and  ov«>,  v  Mt  lf  "as 

it  |  ■.  ,  c  u.>  collection  necessary  to 

have  been  made  before  the  taking  of  anv  testi 
*  Tho  fact  that  such  attention  was  not 

“  V<!“  fl,.°  cas,‘  is  'luito  clearly  shown  by 

..  t  0..  an'<lav't  of  Mr.  Sorrell  filed  with  this 
motion.  He  further  states  that  there  are  cases 
m  wind,  an  amendment  ought  to  he  permitted  even 
after  testimony  taken,  and  mentions  cases  ii  -i 

nnTi!!kVl’°  |,!'-?i'  all-V  f°1'  the'appl'icant 

making  the  statement  to  have  by  him  all  the  data 

™,rC"  °  :ni,k°  11  .ni’-  .  He  evidently  regards 
in  nil  ~  “  '.'esajivmg  this  privilege  of  amendment, 
of  n  Tl-h0'S  Vi  "  llL 1  '  l,M0  was  a  physical  possibility 
of  making  the  correction  before  taking  testimony. 
And  if  Ins  reasoning  is  good  and  his  conception  of 
the  rule  correct,  wherever  a  party  making  a  pre- 
hminary  statement  has  in  his  possession  oi  control 
all  of  the  data  from  which  a  correct  statement  can 
he  made,  and  he  overlooks  and  omits  some  fact 
from  Ins  statement  that  by  the  exercise  of  diligence 
lie  might  have  inserted,  notwithstanding  the  fact 
that  it  was  a  “material  error."  “arising  through 
inadvertence  or  mistake."  and  “its  correction  is 
essential  to  the  ends  of  justice,”  he  is  forever 
debarred  from  the  privilege,  for  “  negligence  ought 
“  not  to  he  rewarded  "  “  nor  regarded  with  special 
favor. v 

Now,  if  the  Commissioner  has  correctly  inter¬ 
preted  the  rule,  the  rule  should  he  abrogated  bv  the 
Secretary  of  the  Interior  iis  “inconsistent  'with 
law,”  for  the  only  authority  conferred  by  statute 

referred  to,  which  provides  that  “  the  Commissioner 
“  of  Patents,  subject  to  the  approval  of  the  Secre- 
“  tary  of  the  Interior,  may  from  time  to  time 
“  establish  regulations  xot  inconsistent  with 
“  r‘AW,  for  the  conduct  of  proceedings  in  the 
“  Patent  Office,"  and  the  rule  so  inter- 

preted  is  not  only  “inconsistent"  with  the  common 
law  regulating  practice  in  judicial  proceedings,  hut 
of  the  patent  law,  which  requires  that  if  in  an  appli¬ 
cation  for  a  patent  “it  shall  appear  that  the  claim- 
“  ant  is  justly  entitled  to  a  patent  under  the  law," 
the  Commissioner  shall  issue  a  patent  therefor,  and 
in  interference  cases  that  the  ipieslion  of  priority 
shall  be  detenu  hied  and  a  patent  granted  to  the  Hist 
inventor.  If  that  interpretation  is  correct,  then 
every  application  to  amend,  although  conclusively 
shown  to  have  arisen  through  “  inadvertence  or 
mistake,  ’  to  lie  entirely,  free  from  fraud  or  had 
faith,  and  to  he  for  the  correction  of  a  matter  “  es- 
“sential  to  the  ends  of  justice,"  must  he  subjected 
to  and  determined  by  the  measure  which  the  Com¬ 
missioner  of  Patents  would  apply  to  the  degree  of 
diligence  and  care  that,  in  his  judgment,  had  been 
exercised  in  the  preparation  of  the  preliminary 
statement.  In  other  words,  it  would  subject  all 
such  parties  and  their  rights  to.  the  caprice  of  the 
Commissioner,  a  consequence  to  ho  avoided  if  pos¬ 
sible.  however  fairly  and  impartially  disposed  he 
might  be. 

But  wo  do  not  think  that  the  rule  is  to  he  so 
understood.  It  is  to  bo  taken  as  a  whole,  not  in 
segregated  sentences, and  is  to  he  construed  in  accord¬ 
ance  with  the  beneficent  purpose  it  was  intended  to 
effect,  viz.,  to  further  “  the  ends  of  justice.”  It  re¬ 
lates  solely  and  exclusively  to  errors  that  have  arisen 
through  “ inadvertence  or  mistake and  provides 
that  whenever  discovered,  even  if  after  testimony 
has  been  taken,  the  statement  may  he  corrected  on 
motion,  only  so  far  as  he  is  concerned,  “upon 
“  showing  to  the  satisfaction  of  the  Commissioner 
“  lf.s  correction  is  essential  to  the  ends  of 
justice.-  The  latter  clause  of  the  rule  is  to  be¬ 
taken  with  the  first,  and  read  thus:  “The  motion  to 
,,  ?0l™ct  ^lu  statement  (for  error  arising  through 
(i  "laiheltuncu  01'  mistake)  must  he  made,  if  possi- 
„  bIe>  ,)ef01'e  the  taking  of  any  testimony,  and  as 
soon  as  practicable  after  the  discovery  of  the 


"error."  After  the  discovery  of  the  error 
mo  ion  to  correct  must  not  only  he  “made, 
h,C’  l,efo,'e  taking  of  any  testimony,”  lmt  “  as 
soon  as  practicable.”  The  motion  could  not  he 
made  Until  the  error  is  discovered,  whether  it  occur 
ca  her  through  inadvertence  or  mistake,  and  to  hold 
that  by  the  proper  use  of  care,  and  diligence  the 
enor  mi,, hi  have  been  avoided  in  the  first  instance 
or  have  been  discovered  before  the  taking  of  mu¬ 
test, mony,  and,  therefore,  to  deny  the  right  of 
amendment,  is  to  hold  all  men  to  the  requirements 
of  a  perfection  standard,  and  to  deprive  the  rule  of  all 
force  and  effect.  Wo  say  that  the  rule  means  to. 
and  does  give  the  absolute  right  to  amend,  when¬ 
ever  an  error  has  been  discovered  that  has  arisen 
through  inadvertence  or  mistake,  whether  before  or 
after  testimony  taken,  and  upon  a  motion  made  to 
amend  as  soon  as  practicable  after  the  discovery  of 
the  error,  conditioned  only  upon  showing  to  the 
satisfaction  of  the  Commissioner  that  its  correction 
is  essential  to  the  u.vns  os  jcstick. 

The  Commissioner  admits  that  “  it  is  true  in  this 
“  case,  as  in  every  case,  that  the  patent  should  issue 
to  the  right  party."  lie  does  not  pretend  to  say 
that  the  correction  is  not  “essential  to  the  ends  of 
justice.”  or  that  the  error  did  not  arise  “  through 
inadvertence  or  mistake,”  or  that  the  motion  was 
not  made  “as  soon  as  practicable  after  the  discovery 
of  the  error.”  He  simply  says  that  “  where  proper 
“  cases  are  presented  for  the  liberal  administration 
“  of  such  rules,  undoubtedly  they  should  receive  a 
“liberal  construction,  hut  such  liberal  construction 
“should  only  he  given  when  good  and  sufficient 
“grounds  are  shown,  not  the  mere  negligence  of 

So  that,  merely  because  in  his  judgment  the  error 
might,  with  diligence  and  care  have  been  sooner  dis¬ 
covered,  he  denies  to  Mr.  Edison  a  right  granted 
him  by  the  rule,  to  which  he  is  absolutely  entitled, 
ns  the  Commissioner's  reply  shows,  and,  in  so  doing, 
he  necessarily  amends  the  rule  by  adding  his  ent  irely 

tl  /  1  jit  that  those  who  seek  the 
buneCI  of  the  rule  must  show  that  they  have  not 
been  negligent  in  hunting  out  a  matter  which  they 
did  not  know  existed  until  they  discovered  it.  He 
imposes  a  condition  not  found  in  the  rule,  that  he 
who  seeks  its  benefit  must  show  that  his  case  is  en¬ 
tirely  free  from  negligence. 

It  is  believed  that  the  duties  of  both  Mr.  Edison 
and  his  counsel  are  as  numerous  and  arduous  as 
those  of  the  Commissioner  of  Patents,  and  that  to 
give  opportunity  to  rectify  an  error  or  inadvertance 
would  not  be  “rewarding  negligence"  in  one  case 
more  than  the  other. 

Inadvertance  is  defined  as  “  inattention— negli¬ 
gence"  in  Webster,  and  tile  Commissioner  makes  a 
distinction  that  is  unauthorized.  Thu  rule  allows 
for  amendments  that  are  proper  for  the  ends  of 
justice  where  there  has  been  inadvertance  or  negli¬ 
gence,  as  distinguished  from  intentional  inaccura- 

The  Commissioner  admits  that  in  judicial  proceed¬ 
ings  amendments  are  allowed  upon  terms,  and  it  is 
therefore  deemed  unnecessary  to  refer  to  text 
hooks  or  to  decided  cases,  to  enlighten  that  ipiestion 
generally.  There  is  no  doubt  that  in  proceedings  at 
law  the  general  rule  is,  that,  ut  any  lime  before  ver¬ 
dict,  all  such  amendments  may  be  made  us  mm/  be 
necessary  for  the  purpose  of  determining  the  reed 
question  in  controversy  between  the  parties.  That  in 
proceedings  in  equity,  amendments  to  bills  and  an¬ 
swers  are  allowed  with  liberality,  and  especially 
where  the  subject  matter  of  the  amendment  de¬ 
pends  upon  written  instruments  omitted  by  accident 
or  mistake.  The  refusal  of  permission  to  amend, 
therefore,  is  inconsistent  with  what  may  he  termed 
the  common  law  relating  to  amendments. 

It  is-further  urged  that  the  object  of  the  o.vamin- 
nation  of  applications  for  Letters  Patent  is  primarily 
the  protection  of  the  public,  and  that  the  object  of 
the  interference  proceedings  in  the  Patent  Office  is 
not  only  the  same,  hut  also,  do  justice  between  con¬ 

flicting  claimants,  by  determining  the  question  o 
priority  of  invention,  and  by  permitting  a  patent  t< 
be  issued  to  whomsoever  is  proven  to  be  the  firs: 
inventor,  and  that  no  rule  should  be  made  or  so  in 
terpreted  as  to  abridge  or  impair  those  objects.  Then 
can  be  no  doubt  that  if  the  evidence  sought  to  he  usei 
in  this  proceeding  would  he  sufficient,  if  admitted,  tc 
prove  that  Edison  was  the  prior  inventor,  if  ex 
eluded,  and  a  patent  issued  to  Nicholson,  it  would  lit 
sufficient  in  a  judicial  proceeding  affecting  the  valid¬ 
ity  of  such  patent  to  avoid  it.  The  exclusion  from 
consideration  in  this  interference  of  the  new  matter 
sought  to  he  introduced,  would  be  a  useless  thing, 
and  surely  the  time  of  the  Patent  Office,  and  the 
money  of  the  applicants  should  not  ho  frittered 
away  in  useless  proceedings. 

The  Commissioners  reply  alleges  as  an  additional 
ground  for  refusing  permission  to  amend,  that  he 
cannot  impose  such  terms  as  could  he  imposed  by 
a  Court  under  similar  circumstances. 

This  objection,  if  legitimate  in  any  case  of  appli¬ 
cation  to  amend,-  would  not  apply  to  this  interfer¬ 
ence,  as  the  costs  of  both  parties  are  paid  by  the 
Western  Union  Telegraph  Company,  which  has  di¬ 
rected  this  appeal  to  he  taken  because  it  is  of  vital 
importance  that  the  question  of  priority  should  be 
so  decided  that  the  patent  when  granted  will  be  to 
the  first  inventor,  and  the  exclusion  from  the  in¬ 
terference  of  legal  evidence  would  he  to  tie  the 
hands  of  the  tribunals  that  decide  the  questions  of 
priority  of  invention,  and  to  run  the  risk  of  the 
issue  of  a  patent  that  would  not  lie  sustained  by  the 

We  therefore  submit  that  the  Commissioner  of 
Patents  has  denied  to  Edison  a  right  assured  to 
him  by  the  law  and  the  rules  of  the  Patent  Office, 
that  his  action  is  subject  to  the  revision  of  the  Sec¬ 
retary  of  the  Interior,  and  that  it  ought  to  be  re¬ 
versed,  and  the  leave  to  amend  the  preliminary 
statement  he  granted. 



donee  bearing  upon  the  question  of  t  he  origin  of  the 
invention  in  contrrovursy,  then  it  would  bo  illegal, 
to  exclude  the  same  upon  the  technicality  that  it  is 
not  in  accordance  with  the  preliminary  statement. 
If  it  is  not  legal  and  reliable  evidence,  it  will  be  ex¬ 
cluded  on  its  own  lack  of  reliability.  No  person  will 
be  injured  by  the  preliminary  statement  being 
amended,  the  amendment  will  not  determine  the 
reliability  of  the  evidence,  it  will  only  prevent  a 
technicality  in  the  determining  of  the  actual  issues 
of  the  case. 

It  is  therefore  desired  that  your  Honor  so  inter¬ 
pret  the  rule  in  question,  or  amend  it  if  necessary, 
that  legal  evidence  shall  not  he  excluded  from  an 
interference  on  the  simple  lechiiicalili/  of  its  being 
inconsistent  with  the  preliminary  statement. 

Rule  10a  sets  forth  that  ‘-the  parties  will  he 
strictly  held  in  their  proof  to  the  dates  set  up  in  their 
statements."  This  rule  becomes  a  bar  to  the  con¬ 
sideration  of  any  evidence  that  varies  the  least  from 
the  preliminary  statement,  hence  the  importance  of 
the  granting  of  the  motion  for  leave  to  amend  the 
preliminary  statement,  and  it  is  believed  that  the 
Patent  Office  is  to  he  regarded  as  a  tribunal  that  is 
to  be  governed  by  considerations  of  equity,  and  as 
the  United  States  Courts  are  not  bound  by  the  pre¬ 
liminary  statement  of  an  inventor,  the  Patent 
Office  must  permit  such  changes  in  the  preliminarv 
statement  as  will  secure  a  decision  of  the  question 
of  priority  upon  the  same  lawful  evidence  as  could 
be  availed  of  in  the  U.  S.  Courts,  where  the  same 
questions  arise  relative  to  the  patentee  being  the 
original  and  first  inventor. 

Appended  hereto  will  be  found  a  copy: 

1st.  Of  the  motion  for  the  permission  to  amend 
the  preliminary  statement. 

2d  and  3d.  Affidavits  of  T.  A.  Edison  and  L.  W. 
Sen-ell,  accompanying  the  motion.  , 

4th.  Decision  of  Examiner  of  Interference. 

5th.  Appeal  to  Commissioner  of  Patents  in  person. 

Gth.  Grounds  of  Commissioner  for  denying  the 

7th.  Appeal  to  Hon.  Secretary  of  the  Interior. 

•Sth.  The  answer  of  Hon.  Commissioner  of  Patents 
to  the  said  appeal. 

From  these  the  whole  facts  and  reasons  involved 
in  the  present  case  will  be  apparent,  and  upon  these 
it  is  believed  that  the  equity  and  propriety  of  the 
motion  must  be  apparent. 

It  is  proper  to  enter  an  answer  to  the  argument  of 
counsel  for  Nicholson  in  the  motion  made  to  dismiss 
the  appeal  of  Edison  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior. 

It  will  be  observed  that  the  Commissioner  of 
Patents  did  not  assign  any  reasons  for  his  adverse 
decision,  he  simply  affirmed  the  action  of  the  Ex¬ 
aminer  of  Interferences;  he  did  not  oven  intimate 
that  it  would  he  contrary  to  the  ends  of  justice  to 
grant  the  permission  to  amend  the  statement, 
neither  did  lie  intimate  that  the  evidence  was  un¬ 
satisfactory  to  him,  and  neither  of  these  intimations 
are  contained  in  his  answer  to  the  present  appeal, 
hence  the  principal  and  proper  grounds  of  appeal  to 

the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  are  that  the  Co . lis- 

sioner  has  acted  contrary  to  the  rules  established  by 
the  Department,  and  has,  in  substance,  changed 
those  rules  wit  hout  authority,  and  thereby  opens  the 
door  for  the  commission  of  an  illegal  act,  viz  :  the 
exclusion  of  legal  evidence  and  the  possibility  of  a 
wrong  decision  being  arrived  at.  and  the  granting 
of  an  invalid  patent. 

It  is  to  be  regretted  that  counsel  for  Nicholson 
have  drawn  into  this  controversy  a  proceeding  (Edi¬ 
son  and  Harrington  vs.  Edison  and  Prescott)  with 
which  our  client  Edison  had  nothing  to  do  except  in 
name.  As  it  has  been  brought  in,  your  Honor  should 
be  briefly  informed  of  its  nature:  It  was  an  effort 
on  the  part  of  Harrington  to  show  that  certain  pat¬ 
ents  should  he  issued  to  him  as  assignee,  instead  of 
to  Prescott  as  assignee  jointly  with  Edison;  it  was 
an  effort  to  induce  the  Commissioner  of  Patents  to 
act  as  a  judge  to  determine  the  question  of  the  title 

of  rival  claimants  by  assignment.  It  requires  but  a 
glance  to  see  that  this  question  of  ownership  was 
and  is  entirely  outside  of  the  Patent  Office  and  the 
Department  of  the  Interior.  The  law  gives  no  ju¬ 
risdiction  in  such  cases,  and  the  proceedings  in  the 
case  should  never  have  been  entertained  for  a  mo¬ 
ment,  and  as  there  are  no  points  of  similarity  in  the 
questions  involved,  nothing  more  need  he  said. 

In  some  of  the  cases  cited,  it  will  he  found  that 
the  decisions  related  to  what  was  legal  evidence, 
and  they  were  based,  not  on  the  interpretation  or 
the  rules  of  practice,  but  upon  the  merits  of  the  evi¬ 
dence  itself  that  was  presented,  and  the  legality  of 
the  same. 

If  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  has  the  power  to 
revise  mles,  he  must  certainly  have  the  power  to 
prevent  them  being  interpreted  or  enforced  in  an 
illegal  manner. 

In  some  cases  cited  by  counsel  Tor  Nicholson,  the 
decision  of  the  Secretary  was  just  the  reverse  of 
that  which  counsel  contends,  as  will  he  seen  from 
the  following  extracts: 

In  the  case  of  F.  II.  Hunt,  0.  (!..  vol.  lti.  p  ;r-< 
the  Secretary  of  Interior  said: 

“I  therefore  direct  in  all  cases  which  may  hereafter 
artso  where,  for  any  reason,  you  may  deem  it 
improper  to  complete  the  issuance  of  a  patent  after 
it  has  been  signed,  that  you  forthwith  transmit  the 
same  to  this  Department,  with  all  the  papers  in  the 
case,  before  taking  further  action  therein  with 
your  reasons  for  declining  to  complete  the  issue  of 
such  patent  for  consideration  and  instruction.” 

And  m  the  case  of  Sargent,  O.  G„  vol  1®  in.™ 
477,  he  said:  '  "’l‘e’ 

The  Commissioner  of  Patents  is  to  “superintend 
or  perform  all  duties  respecting  the  granting  and 
issuing  of  patents,”  hut  these  duties  are  to  be  per- 
Interior  .■U"deP  thC  direct,on  of  tl,e  Secretary  of  the 

“If  the  Commissioner  neglects  or  refuses  to  per¬ 
form  any  required  duty  by  law  to  be  performed  by 

if  the  Ii 

him,  Under  the  direction  of  the  Secret: 
terior,  or  performs  a  ministerial  or  administrative 
duty  improperly,  I  am  of  the  opinion  that  the  Secre¬ 
tary  of  the  Interior,  by  virtue  of  his  supervisory 
power,  may  direct  iiim  in  its  performance.  To  be 
charged  with  the  responsibility  of  the  supervision 
and  direct  ion  of  any  kind  of  work  or  business  by¬ 
law,  and  not  be  able  to  require  that  it  shall  be  in 
““"I’dance  with  the  law,  would  he  anomalous 

But  it  is  said  that  if  the  Commissioner  of  Pat¬ 
ents  neglects  or  refuses  to  perform  any  duty  required 
of  him  by  law,  the  Court  will  compel  him  by 
mandamus  to  perforin  it.  Supposing  this  to  be  so, 
does  that  lesson  t-Iio  obligation  and  responsibility  on 
my  part  in  such  a  case,  if  I  am  called  upon  to  see  to 
it  that  the  law  be  executed;  The  fact  that  a  Court 
which  is  charged  with  the  duty  of  protecting  all 
persons  in  their  rights,  will,  when  the  facts  are  pre¬ 
sented  to  it,  grant  such  a  writ,  in  no  way  relieves 
me  the  duty  of  making  a  proper  order  for  the  per¬ 
formance  of  the  same  thing,  where  the  work  to  be 
done  is  in  the  hands  of  an  officer  who  performs  all 
of  his  duties  under  my  direction  and  I  am  charged 
with  the  responsibility  of  seeing  that  that  work  is 
properly  performed." 

“If  1  am  correct  in  this  conclusion,  and  I  see  no 
escape  from  it,  then  it  is  clear  that  I  have  the  right 
to  direct  the  Commissioner  of  Patents  in  the  per¬ 
formance  of  all  administrative  or  ministerial  duties  ” 

It  is  the  height  of  folly  for  counsel  to  complain 
that  there  has  been  long  delays  in  determining  the 
rights  of  Nicholson,  and  at  the  same  time  suggest 
that  if,  through  the  exclusion  of  legal  evidence  on  a 
technicality,  the  patent  should  be  granted  to  the 
wrong  party,  it  might  be  rectified  by  a  bill  in  equity. 
Such  a  proceeding  would  only  still  further  postpone 
the  determination  of  the  rights  of  the  respective 
parties,  and  it  is  only  a  suicidal  policy  on  the  prut 
of  Nicholson  and  his  counsel  that  has  led  them  to 
oppose  the  amendment  of  Edison's  preliminary 

statement,  ami  they  alone  are  responsible  for  this 
delay,  and  if  the  patent  should  be  granted  to  the 
wrong  party  by  the  persistent  refusal  of  the  Patent 
Office  to  admit  legal  evidence,  and  a  hill  in  equity 
has  to  he  resorted  to,  it  may  he  prophesied  that 
there  will  he  a  similar  outcry  against  delay,  and  a 
similar  failure  to  see  that  the  delay  is  chargeable  to 
Nicholson's  own  counsel. 

The  quest  ion  of  the  uriijiti  of  the  in  rent  ion  does 
not  come.  before  the  Secretory  of  the  Interior:  he  in 
not  asked  to  deride  any  matter  of  interference  ;  the 
matter  of  this  appeal  is  simply  in  relation  to  the 
legality  of  a  rule  and  its  mode  of  interpretation. 
The  statute  (sec.  4IMI4)  requires  that  the  question  of 
priority  oj  intention  shall  be  determined,  and  any 
.rides  or  proceed iiii/s  which  prerent  this  beiny  done 
are  illetjtd  and  must  be  set  aside:  and  the  only  ques¬ 
tion  that  has  to  he  decided  is,  whether  Edison  can 
he  excluded  from  introducing  legal  evidence.  Wheth¬ 
er  the  evidence  is  legal  or  not  is  not  under  discus¬ 
sion;  that  comes  up  when  the  merits  of  the  case  and 
the  reliability  of  the  testimony  is  under  discussion, 
and  all  that  thcSecretaryof  the  Interior  need  to  say 
is,  that  the  rules  concerning  preliminary  statements 
are  not  to  he  so  interpreted  as  to  exclude  from  the 
hearing  legal  evidence  on  the  question  of  priority  of 
invention,  and  to  this  extent  the  Secretary  of  the 
Interior  cortainly  has  jurisdiction  as  the  head  of  the 
Department  and  under  whose  supervision  the  rules 
are  enacted.  We  do  not  ask  the  Secretary  to  de¬ 
cide  what  is  legal  evidence;  that  can  be  safely  left 
to  the  authorities  having  power  to  determine  inter¬ 
ferences,  hut  we  do  respectfully  insist  that  to  allow 
rules  to  be  interpreted  so  as  to  give  opportunity  to 
exclude  legal  evidence  is  illegal  and  cannot  stand  in 
the  face  of  the  express  statute,  and  the  fact  that 
the  Patent  Office  is  a  tribunal  presumed  to  be  based 
on  the  principles  of  equity,  having  power  to  deter¬ 
mine  the  question  of  priority  of  invention  in  an 

intelligent  manner,  and  to  grant  the  patent  to  the 
man  whom  the  legal  evidence  shows  is  entitled  to  it. 
*  Respectfully  submitted, 

Lemuel  W.  Sekkell. 
Anijhbw  C.  Bradley. 

For  T.  A.  Edison. 

No.  1. 


Thomas  A.  Edison  ] 

against  i 

Hknhy  C.  Nicholson.  ! 

Improvements  in  Telegraphs. 

New  Yohk,  Nov.  29,  1SS0. 

1 1  Dii.  H.  C.  Nicholson: 

Shi — Please  to  take  notice  that  upon  December 
.  '  1 5th,  at  12  noon,  and  before  Hon.  Commissioner  of 

Patents,  I  shall  make  a  motion  for  permission  to 
amend  the  preliminary  statement  of  Thomas  A. 
Edison,  by  adding  thereto"  a  reference  to  a  certain 
caveat  known  as  No.  45,  and  to  the  instruments 
i  therein  referred  to,  and  to  the  original  draft  of  and 

time  of  executing  such  caveat,  and  will  present 
affidavits  showing  how  the  omissions  or  inaccu¬ 
racies  in  the  preliminary  statement  occurred,  and 
the  character  of  the  evidence  that  will  be  produced 
to  show  the  truthfulness  of  the  proposed  additional 
statements,  of  which  affidavits  you  will  be  furnished 
with  copies. 

(Signed)  Lemuel  W.  Sekhell,  . 

Attorney  for  T.  A.  Edison. 

Service  of  a  copy  of  the  foregoing  notice  admitted 
the  30th  day  of  November,  1SS0,  and  it  is  hereby 
agreed  and  stipulated  that  the  testimony  of 
Thomas  A.  Edison,  and  of  the  witnesses  in  his  be- 

and  furthermore  that  the  motion  shall  be  treated 
the  same  as  though  it  had  been  noted  for  a  hearing 
immediately  after  November  Slilh,  when  the  exist¬ 
ence  of  the  said  caveat  was  first  brought  to  Edison's 
not  ice,  and  that  the  testimony  taken  shall  be  treated 
the  same  as  if  it  had  been  taken  after  the  hearing  or 
the  aforesaid  motion.  B.  E.  J.  Eir.s. 

Attorney  for  H.  C.  Nicholson. 

No.  2. 

-Mkxi.o  Pack,  ) 

State  of  New  Jorsev.  ) 

Thomas  A.  Bimbos,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 
sajs,  that  ho  is  one  of  the  parties  in  tile  interference 
on  Duplex  Telegraphs  between  Henry  C.  Nicholson 
and  himself.  That  lie  has  presented  to  tho  Patent 
( Ithco  throe  preliminary  statements;  the  first  was 
sworn  to  April  27,  1878:  the  second  March  31  |S7<» 
and  the  third,  April  It),  1S7!».  That  in  preparing 
these  statements  lie  trusted  very  largely  to  his 
memory;  that  ho  had  a  largo  number  of  sketches  and 
memoranda,  but  that  very  few  of  them  had  any 
dates  upon  them;  that  he  did  not  commence  to  date 
,as  il  n*l,lnr  thin«'  until  some  time  in 
that  ho  had  the  printed  copies  of  evidence 
p  Vt‘«  ln,pS,‘  *’  111  ,the  suit  hetween  the  Atlantic  and 
Pacific  lolegi-aph  Co.  and  Western  Union  Tele¬ 
graph  Co.  and  others,  and  that  this  evidence  was 
generally  familiar  to  him.  That  ho  prepared  his 
preliminary  statements  so  far  as  facts  and  dates, 
roll  '0 Ut  tlle  assistance  of  his  counsel,  L.  W.  Ser- 
That  on  November  27,  1SS0.  said  Sorrell  came  to 
o  M.'  f  i  i.  I"°k.0V01'  matte,'s  "''th  him  to  pre- 
l  ‘.L  taking  evidence  in  the  said  interference 
with  Nicholson.  That  sketches,  &c ,  were  gone 
over,  and  scarcely  any  found  with  dates.  That  de¬ 
ponent  promised  to  look  over  his  records  further. 

gesieu  ail  examination  ot  copies  of  caveats.  That 
this  was  done  and  a  copy  of  caveat  4.1  was  found 
which  contained  the  subject  matter  of  this  interfer 

That  deponent  had  forgotten  entirely  that  then 
was  any  caveat  showing  tile  devices  therein  set 
forth:  that  be  had  not  referred  to  the  same  in  inak- 

erence  was  made  to  the  said  caveat  in  the  litigation 
aforesaid.  He  is  unable  to  account  for  either  of 
these  facts,  except  by  saying  that  when  he  made 
out  his  preliminary  statements  the  copies  of  his 
caveats  were  scattered  among  the  mass  of  notes, 
memorandums,  &c..  in  bis  office,  which’  had  not  at 
that  time  been  put  into  order,  and  he  either 
did  not  have  said  caveat  at  tlune  times  (as sever¬ 
al  copies  have  been  since  furnished  in  completing  his 
set),  or  else  the  copy  was  mislaid.  And  in  regard  to 
tho  failure  to  refer  to  the  said  caveat,  in  the  liti¬ 
gation  aforesaid,  he  can  only  explain  that  said  suit 
related  to  the wa //ci  s///yi  only  ot  the  invention  now 
in  controversy,  and  not  to  theorigin  of  the  invention, 
and  there  was  a  general  cross-fire  in  t  he  proceedings, 
as  the  deponent  was  called  for  the  plaintiff,  and  his 
counsel,  Mr.  Sorrell,  was  one  of  tho  defendants  and 
gave  his  evidence  for  said  defendants. 

That  upon  discoveiyof  the  copy  of  said  caveat 
No.  4.-.  and  upon  reference  to  his  original  draft 
of  the  said  caveat  he  found  that  it  was  of  great 
importance  that  he  lie  permitted  to  amend  his  pre¬ 
liminary  statement,  by  refering  to  the  original  draft 
of  said  caveat,  the  dates  that-  are  fixed  thereby, 
and  the  collateral  circumstances  of  the  use  of  the  in¬ 
strument  shown  therein.  That  when  he  made  his 
preliminary  statements  he  named  December.  1S73, 
as  the  time  when  the  instruments  in  interference 
were  made  and  used;  that  by  said  caveat  he  is 
able  to  define  the  fact  that  the  instruments  were 
tested  and  their  operation  determined  at  the  time  he 

wrote  out  the  said  caveat;  that  the  discovery  of  said 
caveat  led  him  to  seek  the  evidence  of  four  persons 
that  saw  the  apparatus  in  actual  use,  and  deponent 
is  informed  that  they  fix  the  date  as  the  end  of  Sep¬ 
tember  or  the  .hoginning  of  October,  1S73,  and  that 
evidence  has  been  taken  to  establish  these  facts 

That  deponent  believes  that  it  is  a  matter  of  justice 
that  permission  he  granted  to  him  to  amend  his  pre¬ 
liminary  statement,  in  view  of  the  discovery  of  the 
caveat  and  the  evidence  of  Norman  C.  Miller  S 
Brown,  A.  B.  Chandler,  and  U.  H.  Painter*  the 
importance  of  whose  evidence  deponent  did  not  ap¬ 
preciate  until  he  discovered  said  caveat,  because 
said  caveat  determined  the  character  of  the  devices 
that  they  saw. 

(Sig  d »  Titos.  A.  Edison,  [skai,.  ] 

Static  or  Nkw  Jkiiskv,  ) 

County  of  .Middlesex,  )  ***■ : 

Be  it  remembered  that  on  this  1  yh  day  of  Decern - 

n  and  fo,  T  ""l  “  P"Wic  <l"b’ appointed 

m  anil  foi  said  county,  personally  appeared  Thos.A. 
Edison,  who  I  am  satisfied  is  the  person  described  in 

having  first  made  known  to  him  the  contents 
tlwt  llL‘siS,1L,<1>  scaled,  and 
for  ho  neasl,,s  vol,,n*“«y  act  and  deed, 

foi  the  uses  and  purposes  herein  expressed. 

S.  L.  Gkikfix, 

*‘SEAI'l  Notary  Public, 

Middlesex  Co. 

thathe  f  7  bei,,8  ,lu>y  affirmed,  says 

that  lie  is  of  counsel  for  Tlios.  A.  Edison  in  his  mat 

Nlcfc*”””'  £ »  C. 

That  on  Friday,  November  2(i,  ]SSC>,  he  was  ores 
cut  at  the  conclusion  of  the  evidence  in  behalf  of 

}j  ’  M» 

;J|  Dr.  Nicholson;  that  on  Saturday,  November  27,  he 

H  visited  Menlo  Park  to  see  if  said  Edison  had  gone 

if  over  his  memoranda  and  various  matters  of  evidence 

|J  so  as  to  he  ready  for  his  examination  on  Monday, 

3}  November  sit.  pursuant  to  notice  for  taking  the  said 

|  '  evidence;  that  at  that  time  he  went  over  a  large 

mass  of  drawings  and  sketches,  hut  unfortunately 
they  wore  mostly  without  dates;  that  ho  remained 
1  with  him  until  after  six  o'clock  for  that  purpose, 

<  and  said  Edison  promised  to  look  over  his  various 

i  records  and  the  evidence  he  had  given  in  a  litigation 

relative  to  the  ownership  of  the  invention  in 
controversy,  and  he  ready  for  the  examination 
on  Monday;  that  on  Monday  when  deponent 
arrived,  ready  to  go  on  with  said  evidence, 
ho  discovered  that  said  Edison  had  not  been 
B  able  to  do  anything  in  preparation  after  deponent 

H  left  Saturday  night,  that  thereupon  deponent  went 

iff  over  with  said  Edison  his  numerous  memoranda 

still  further,  and  among  other  things  discovered  a 
copy  of  his  caveat  No.  4fi,  from  which  it  appeared 
that  the  caveat  was  signed  and  sworn  to  as  early  as 
October  28,  1873.  That  deponent  had  not  examin¬ 
ed  the  copy  of  said  caveat  between  the  time  of  its 
preparation  and  the  said  2!>th  day  of  November, 
|  JSSo.  so  far  as  deponent  recollects,  and  he  did  not 

|  draw  said  caveat  originally,  it  having  been  drawn 

|  by  said  Edison  himself,  and  deponent  did  not  re¬ 

member  that  stiid  caveat  described  any  such  devices 
as  were  found  in  it  until  its  copy  was  referred  to, 

•  and  its  contents  examined. 

|  '  That  at  the  time  of  the  preliminary  statements  of 

i  tlie  said  Edison,  in  this  case  being  made  out.  depo- 

'  nept’ requested  said  Edison  to  furnish  the  particu¬ 

lars  for  the  same ;  that  this  was  done,  and  in 
,  one  instance  at  least  the  preliminary  state- 

■  meat  was  sent  off  by  said  Edison  himself 

without  being  seen  by  deponent ;  that  until  Satur¬ 
day,  November  27,  1880,  deponent  bad  never  gone 
over  the  memoranda  or  evidence  of  the  said 
Edison  with  him,  so  far  as  dates  and  experiments 

idaUnK  to  this  case,  because  deponent  believed  the 
sau  Ed.son  to  be  fully  posted  in  the  premises,  and 
lie  believed  tied  said  Edison,  in  the  prior  litigation 
between  A.  &  P.  Tel.  Co.  and  W.  U.  Tel.  Co  had 
become  fully  impressed  with  all  the  facts,  and 
therefore  had  reason  to  presume  that  the  prelimi¬ 
nary  statements  would  he  complete. 

that  said  preliminary  statements  show  that  the 
invention  had  been  conceived  and  largely  reduced  to 
practice,  hut  fail  to  refer  to  the  caveat  in  question 
thereof1'  ",st,"n,Cnts’  ns  about  the  time 

Deponent  has  had  the  original  draft  of  caveat  No 
4a  m  Ins  possession  ever  since  it  was  sent  i„v 
office  by  said  Edison.  That  in  deponent's  note 

hook  under  date  of  Monday,  Oct.  20,  1ST:!,  the  fol- 

lownig  entry  is  made  in  deponents  own  handwrit- 

“MHler caveat  duplex  Edison,  No.  48  (long!  in." 

that  from  this  entry  deponent  knows  that  said 
caveat  had  been  prepared  from  said  Edison’s  origi¬ 
nal  draft  by  that  date.  That  this  caveat  was  ore 
pared  by  the  order  of  Norman  C.  Miller’ 
and  charged  to  him;  that  said  Mille,’ 

nmer  furnished  the  funds  for  said  caveat 
as  the  other  books  of  deponent  show,  and 
furthermore,  deponent  finds  by  bis  books  that  said 
A  ilS  "?t  Sent  t0  th°  Pnk‘nt  until  the 
end  of  August,  1874,  and  the  same  was  filed  Sen- 
tember,  18i4.  and  the  expenses  thereof  were  paid 
puioujnt  to  hills  rendered  to  Geo.  B.  Prescott  ‘  ’ 

That  since  the  notice  for  the  present  motion  for 
permission  to  amend  the  preliminary  statement  de¬ 
ponent  has  proceeded  to  take  evidence,  as  l,v  con 
T1  s,lch  evidence  the  existence  of  the 
draft  of  said  caveat,  its  preparation  and  execution, 
have  been  proved,  and  the  existence  of  the  devices 
therein  referred  to  demonstrated  earlv  in  August 

if‘intld  e1XhibHed  t,!several  Persons  the  latter  pa.  t 
of  September  or  early  in  October,  1878;  hence  the 
propriety  of  permission  to  amend  preliminary  state- 

nient  will  be  apparent,  because  the  amendment  will 
oniy  include  matters  that  hereafter  will  be  evidence 
in  Court;  and  the  omission  from  the  preliminary 
statements  have  been  entirely  accidental  and  with¬ 
out  any  intention  to  mislead. 

Lemuel  \V.  Sehhell. 

Affirmed  before  me  ) 
this  18th  day  of  ■ 

December,  1SS0.  ) 

'  Tseal]  Geo.  T.  Pinckney, 

Notary  Public. 

No.  4. 

Department  of  the  Interior,  ) 
United  States  Patent  Office,  V 
Washington,  D.  C.,  Dec.  17,  1SS0.  1 

In  Re  Intf.rfkkf.nce. 

T.  A.  Edison, 

Care  L.  AY.  Serrell. 

N.  Y.  City:  a 

Please  find  below-  a  communication  from  the  Ex¬ 
aminer  in  charge  of  Interferences  in  regard  to  the 
above-cited  case. 

Very  respectfully, 

E.  M.  Marble, 
Commissioner  of  Patents. 
The  motion  must  he  denied  upon  the  authority  of 
Hopkins  vs.  LeRoy,  18  0.  G..  Sf>0. 

Limit  of  appeal  seven  days. 

No.  5. 


Interlocutory  Appeal  from  Examiner 
of  Interferences  relative  to  per¬ 
mission  to  amend  Preliminary 

„  York,  Dec.  21.  1SS0. 

Hon.  Com  ii.  ok  Patknts: 

Shi:  On  the  above-named  mutter  the  present  is  to 
request  an  interlocutory  a]ipeal  to  your  Honor  on 
the  following  state  of  facts. 

Permission  is  asked  to  amend  preliminary  state¬ 
ment,  on  the  ground  that  recently-discovered  evi¬ 
dence,  the  existence  of  which  had  been  entirely  lost 
sight  of  and  forgotten,  rendered  an  amendment  of 
the  preliminary  statement  important.  This  is  de¬ 
nied  on  reference  to  the  decision  of  your  Honor  in 
the  case  Hopkins  vs.  Leroy  (18  0.  G.,  nr, a). 

You  are  asked  to  overrule  and  reverse  tile  action 
Son  teo^Man,1,,e,'°f  Jnto,'fercnci".  end  give  permis- 
Z  t  fl  °nanr 'mn<-nient  t0  tI,u  l’lel!niinary  state- 
niGiit,  foi  the  following  reasons: 

1st.  A  preliminary  statement  is  necessary  and 
proper  as  a  check  to  prevent  fraud,  hence  it  s  on  li¬ 
the  same  as  an  answer  or  pleadings  in  a  Court,  and 
cannot  be  considered  any  more  final  and  binding- 
regulations  concerning  miendmc nts  to  prelimina.T 
statements  should  he  similar  to  those  in  Comt- 
'  here  material  amendments  are  permitted  after  the 
‘  Z  K  has  tak*»  evidence,  he  should  be  indem- 
1  fe.  expenses  he  may  have  incurred  by  reason 

of  the  misapprehension  of  the  position  of  the  other- 
party.  In  this  case  nothing  of  that  kind  can  arise, 
as  the  expenses  of  both  parties  are  paid  by  \Y.  U. 
Telegraph  Co. 

id.  A  preliminary  statement  is  filed  pursuant  to 
a  rule.  No  rule  is  legal,  valid  or  operative  that 
subverts  the  statute  or  is  interpreted  in  opposition 
to  the  same. 

3d.  The  statute  requires  that  the  question  of 
priority  of  invention  shall  he  determined,  and  any 
rule  or  interpretation  which  prevents  this  question 
.being  determined  is  illegal  and  can  be  set  aside 
either  by  your  Honor  or  an  appeal  to  the  Supreme 
Court  of  the  District  of  Columbia. 

(C.  D.  1S72,  p.  185.1 

(C.  D.  1S73,  p.  10.V 

(Platts  and  Walden,  0.  G..  vol.  15.  p. 

4th.  It  is  believed  that  while  the  rule  laid  down 
in  the  case  of  Hopkins  vs.  Leroy  is  generally 
correct,  it  should  he  interpreted  so  that  if  one  party 
discovers  evidence  that  he  had  forgotten  or  did  not 
know  of,  and  in  good  faith  gives  notice  promptly  of 
the  same  and  of  motion  to  amend  his  preliminary 
statement,  he  should  be  permitted  to  do  so, 

(a)  Human  nature  is  not  perfect,  and  a  man's 
memory  is  liable  to  be  in  error. 

(ii)  Because  the  reliability  of  the  evidence 
sought  to  he  introduced  can  be  fully  inquired 
into,  and  rejected  if  insufficient. 

(c)  Evidence  should  not  be  excluded  from  the 
Patent  Office  that  could  afterwards  be  properly 
introduced  in  Court,  because  the  decision  of  the 
question  of  priority  of  invention  is  based  on  the 
the  same  principles  in  both  cases. 

5.  While  it  is  proper  to  prevent  fraud  and  decep¬ 
tion,  and  rules  should  be  inforced  to  prevent  one 
party  gaining  an  undue  advantage  of  another, 

•fence,  of  the  most  com 'h‘"'""‘,ll,lr!l  evi- 
u  i  1 1  t  o  f  iji0"*  ?n,L'L; a  i,:,'ty  to 

initiations.  u"(1el'  fl|o  guise  of 

srsr  '," ',  ? r‘‘°  or 

i.toko,,  ,„  .c"; of  •*  ti, 

■•-..the fo;  . . . 

'-oforo  the  taking  STS*  “,,Mt,1,ot  1,0  '«*** 
not  been  discovered.  The  affidavit*  S°i  * '  •' el’lw ll!ul 
<l>nt  the  con-ection  isoss^S^  SSU,’",itt0!1 
It  is  believed  that  under  this  rule  1?  ™<lsof.i,!stlce- 
"mend  should  bo  allowed her  so ,V  *rnfs,on  to 
said  rule  have  been  complied  w»T  °  tPm,S  °f 
Vours  respectfully, 

L.  AV.  Skimikm., 

-Mailed  Dee.  SI,  Alto™V  for  Edison. 


Chief  Clerk. 

No.  7. 

To  the  Hon.  Skchetahy  ok  the  Intekioii: 

The  petition  of  Thomas  A.  Edison  of  Menlo  Park 
in  the  State  of  New  Jersey,  respectfully  showeth: 

That  he  made  application  Sept.  I,  1874,  for  Let 
tore  Patent  on  Duplex  Telegraph,  known  ascase  OS* 
That  after  numerous  proceedings  therewith  con 
necteil,  his  said  application  was  put  into  interferenc* 
with  the  applications  of  Henry  C.  Nicholson,  filei 
Oct.  14.  1874  and  May  11,  187*!. 

That  he  filed  preliminary  statements  in  such  in 
turferences,  and  that  lie  gave  notice  for  taking, 
evidence,  and  that  in  preparing  for  such  evident-* 
he  discovered  a  certain  caveat  filed  hy  him  and  th* 
original  draft  thereof,  whereby  the  time  of  the  con 
caption  of  the  device  in  controversy  was  more  clear 
ly  established  and  hy  which  he  was  also  enabled  tc 
more  positively  ascertain  the  time  when  the  inven 
tion  was  put  into  practical  operation.  That  it  up 
peared  to  he  proper  to  amend  his  preliminary  state 
ment,  and  thereupon  he  gave  notice  according  t* 
rule  140  of  a  motion  to  amend  his  preliminary  state 
ment  as  authorized  by  rule  1 10.  That  said  rule  ox 
pressly  provides  that  in  ease  of  material  error  sue! 
statement  may  lie  corrected. 

That  upon  the  hearing  of  tin*  said  motion,  per 
mission  to  amend  was  denied  without  the  assign 
ment  of  any  special  reasons  in  this  case,  all  ol 
which  appear  in  files  of  the  case. 

That  in  this  your  petitioner  believes  that  the  Hon, 
Commissioner  of  Patents  acted  contrary  to  the  rule* 
of  the  Denartment.  and  contrary  to  law.  for  the  fol 

fetlwre l»n,» cS.mSljllT * W‘s“'  ,,oltl,er 

court,  as  will  he  found  on  rofoivmv.  t ,  ti 
hies  in  fhe  ease.  roru,(L  fo  ^>e 


i»  not  tl„  ti„(  brrS  ,0  11,0  I”*'  *l» 

nr .rr2^ 

tioned,  either  as  to  reliability  nr  «?  m’^'  t0  °r  (.llL‘s 
motion  bas  been  m  ule  in  '  t  •  ^  ,?ICIe,lc.v>  mid  said,  ‘l  f 

statement  must  be  made.  r  f1  the 

H«  of  any  testimony,  and  as  sot,’  f°re  th?  tak' 

after  the  discovery  of  the  . r  ••  ■■■■ 

show,  and  it  is  not  onestio,  ,  ^  10  affidavits 

motion  to  amend  unmade  E  ’■  *  “lt  the  notice  ,,f 
within  a  few  horn's  after  tho  Ai*>0n  as  Possible,  and 
and  no  reason  is  rivE  Eh  ' V I  *™'?1'*'  °f  tho  °nor, 

tiie  privilege  of  Emendation'  T*  IS-i1,°t  entitIu(1  to 
deception,  or  any  intentna, ’e.Er'T  h°‘'  fn,ud 
against  him,  101  lb  even  charged 

suhstantiallVcha^e'd  the  rnl'^'Ttl'  °f  Patents  llas 

dence,  leaving  out  the  proviso  “  if  possible.’'  Such 
action  on  his  part  should  therefore  be  set  aside. 

Your  petitioner  therefore  requests  that  your 
Honor  will  set  a  time  for  the  hearing  of  this  pe¬ 
tition,  and  upon  a  hearing  of  the  ease  grant  an 
order  allowing  Edison  to  amend  his  preliminary 
statement,  and  thereby  over-rule  the  action  of  the 
Hon.  Commissioner  of  Patents. 

Thomas  A  Edison, 
per  Lemuel  W.  Seureix, 
A  tty. 

Yew  York  City,  March  S,  18$1. 

Department  of  Tire  Intehior,  I 

United  States  Patent  Office,  } 

Wasminoton,  D.  C..  March  i'!i,  issi.  ) 
Hon.  S.  J.  Kirkwood, 

Secretary  of  the  Interior: 

Sin:  1  have  the  honor  to  acknowledge  the  receipt 
by  reference  of  a  communication  addressed  to  you, 
signed  Thomas  A.  Edison,  by  Lemuel  \V.  Serroll, 
Attorney,  representing  that  mv  action  in  refusing 
to  allow  an  amendment  of  the  preliminary  state¬ 
ment  of  said  Edison,  in  a  case  entitled  Thomas  A. 
Edison  vs.  Henry  C.  Nicholson,  is  contrary  to  the 
rules  of  the  Department,  and  contrary  to  law  for 
the  following  reasons: 

1st.  There  is  no  exception  taken  by  the  oppos- 
“  ing  part}’  to  any  of  the  formalities  in  the  case, 
“  neither  is  there  by  the  Commissioner. 

“  2nd.  The  evidence  sought  to  he  introduced  in 
“the  case  is  legal  evidence  that  would  he-  received 
“  in  the  U.  S.  Court,  as  will  ho  found  oil 
“  reference  to  tliu  files  in  the  case. 

“  Itrd.  Unless  the  motion  to  amend  the  pielimi- 
“  nary  statement  is  granted,  opportunity  will  be 
“  given  to  opponents  to  object  to  the  reception  of 
“  portions  of  the  evidence  on  the  ground  that  it  is 
“  not  permissible  under  preliminary  statement,  and 
“  thereby  there  will  he  a  risk  of  the  exclusion  of 

.  ,ntafi-*ro"co  is  illegal  and  must  lie  so  modified  or 

-:=sss::\.'*v  .r-.*-; 

« as  made  as  soon  as  possible  „.-,i  •  , 

hours  after  the  diseolcry  „f  the  er  o  " 

reason  is  given  why  Edison  is  „„t  entitled  t!  #!" 

■against  him.  L  c"  charged 

“Oth  That  the  Hon.  Commissioner  of  P  ,  , 

“  evidence,’  Ieavimr  ,,  lhe  fakl»g  of  any 

“  such  action  on  his  nart  1°  P!?V,S0’  ‘ if  possible. 

“  aside.”  ,  a,t  shouI,I>  therefore,  he  set 

*** »»■ 

me  on  appeal,  from*  the  IVi|U,U  ^rougl it  before 

by  whom  It  '„Tte»  tS"Z°‘ 
the  rulimr  m,.  eniea  In  accordance  with 
Boy,  18  a  a  sfo  Sf0°  °'  Hopkills  vs.  Le 
was  affirmed  by  me  for  1 1G  r^*0"  0f  the  Exa'"inei 

ease  above  cited  iUvas  lield  "< Tf  am' t?" S‘  •  1,1  U« 

“  statement,  it  can  only  lie  on  the  hypothesis  that 
“  such  statement  is  to  remain  intact,  and  that  the 
“  party  making  the  same  shall  ho  hound  liv  the 
“  matters  therein  set  forth.  Whether  such  state- 
“  ment  he  considered  as  a  pleading  or  not  it  seems 
“  to  me  is  not  very  material.  When  a  party  makes 
“  and  files  his  preliminary  statement,  it  is  to  be 
“  presumed  that  ho  has  fully,  canvassed  all  the  facts 
“  in  his  case,  and  that  the  statement,  as  filed,  ns 
“  far  as  is  necessary,  is  a  correct  statement  of  such 
“  facts.  Unless  the  party  having  made  such  state- 
“  ment  asks  to  amend  the  same  before  any  testi- 
“  monv  is  taken  in  the  case,  all  parties  have  a  rtr/hl 
“  to  proceed  on  the  issue  ns  made  in  the  respective 
“  statements.  It  may  be  that  a  statement 
“  made  contains  an  erroneous  date,  as  is 
“  claimed  in  this  case;  if  so.  the  party  making 
“  the  statement  should  correct  that  date  before 
“  his  opponent  has  been  put  to  the  expense  of  tak- 
“  ing  testimony  to  sustain  his  own  case.  A  party 
“  has  no  right  to  wait  until  his  opponent  has  fully 
•‘developed  all  the  facts  in  his  ease  and  then,  for 
“  the  first  time,  make  known  the  error  that  he  has 
“  committed  in  his  preliminary  statement.  Proper 
“  diligence  on  his  part  would  have  placed  him  in 
“  possession  of  the  facts  upon  which  he  could  have 
“  corrected  his  statement  before  such  testimony  was 
“taken.  If  through  carelessness  or  negligence  lie 
“has  failed  to  have  such  correction  made,  other 
“  parties  should  not  lie  injured  by  such  negligence. 

“  The  application  in  this  case  to  amend  comes  too 
“  late.  If  amendment  can  now  lie  made  for  the 
“  reason  stated,  it  should  be  and  could  be  made  at 
“  any  stage  of  the  proceedings  in  the  case,  and  if 
“amendments  in  preliminary  statements  are  al- 
“  lowed  in  any  stage  of  the  proceedings  therein,  the 
“  whole  object  of  requiring  preliminary  statements 
“  would  be  defeated.” 

The  motion  to  amend  the  preliminary  statement 
yvas  made,  it  is  claimed,  under  the  provision  of  rule 

mMhfwSiioS?  °f  ,,mc,kv °f  ",is  0fflci*>  «-Wch 


The  motion  t  c  rert  I  l,  teJ,,Is  °f  justi,:e- 
“  co very  of  tho  cwor  •’  1,ract,cnM‘-‘  "«er  the  dis- 

“  i,;u'.t-vtoti"-'  fotwfcronco 

'•  sealed  up  before  filiniwt/  <,Ue,1,1ent  "»»t  bo 
“  E*»n»inlr  of Inti fc  ^  °"b'  by  lh* 



■i'SSfiSf  "■•"»  on 

mt*nt  was  sworn  to  .March  V  '  jS-n° 
tional  statement  April  loth  folk!  '•  „nn  iu,di' 
mony  in  this  case  w ■  '  ,  ‘ !  ’  lolIow‘»K-  The  testl- 
tembor,  ISSO.  More'  th-m \a™men™1  until  Sep- 
elapsed,  after  filing  fits  “1'’  thei'ofoi'°.  bad 

amended,  before  I “-hnmiary  statement  as 

attention  of  > 

“oy,  must  to  some  extent  l.J  t 1  1  f  l,w  atto1-- 
preliminary  statement  filed;  and  I  cammte'  t0  •tl,° 

[t  proper  attention  and  diligence  had  C°U(X‘m'- 
it,  either  by  Mr.  Edison  oMn-m  L  e"  glven  to 
01  by  Ins  attorney,  that  it 

was  impossible  for  any  and  every  correction  neces¬ 
sary'  to  have  been  made  before  the  taking  of  any  testi¬ 
mony.  Tbe  fact  that  such  attention  was  not  given 
to  the  preparation  of  the  case,  it  seems  to  me.  is 
quite  clearly  shown  by  the  affidavit  of  Mr.  Serrell. 
filed  with  tin's  motion. 

Negligence  ought  not  to  be  rewarded  hv  this  office 
nor  regarded  with  special  favor  by  any  one.  Some 
rule  must  be  adopted  by  the  office,  which  will  be 
enforced  without  regard  to  parties.  If  a  preliminary 
statement  is  to  have  any  force  and  effect  in  deter¬ 
mining  the  testimony  which  parties  may  introduce, 
the  rule  laid  down  in  the  case  of  Hopkins  vs.  Le  Hoy- 
seemed  to  me  then,  and  still  appears  to  me  to  he, 
the  correct  one.  This  office  has  not  the  powers  of  a 
Court,  nor  can  it  execute  and  enforce  its  orders  so  as 
to  secure  in  all  respects  the  rights  of  parties,  as  may¬ 
be  done  in  Court.  Amendments  to  pleadings  mav 
be  made  in  Court  upon  such  terms  as  the 
Court  may  deem  proper.  The  condition  of  cases, 
however,  and  the  situation  of  parties  are  quite 
unlike  those  in  interference  cases.  In  inter¬ 
ference  cases  the  parties  usually-  live  long  dis¬ 
tances  from  each  other,  and  the  taking  of  testi¬ 
mony’  is  attended  with  great  expense.  The  only- 
guide  which  a  party  can  have,  and  the  only  basis 
upon  which  he  can  determine  whether  he  should 
take  testimony  and  proceed  to  trial  for  the  purpose 
of  securing  what  he  deems  to  be  a  valuable  right, 
is  the  preliminary  statement  or  statements  of  his 
opposing  party  or  parties.  Upon  consideration  of 
those  statements  and  the  facts  disclosed  in  his  own, 
he  decides  whether  he  will  incur  any-  expense  in 
contesting  the  right  to  the  invention  claimed.  If, 
after  having  taken  his  entire  testimony-  and  dis¬ 
closed  his  case,  his  opponent  can  then  amend  Ins 
preliminary-  statement  so  as  to  antedate  the  inven¬ 
tion  as  proven  hy  him,  it  seems  to  me  that  it  is 
useless  that  any-  preliminary-  statement  should  ho 

There  are  cases,  undoubtedly,  where  the  prelimi¬ 
nary-  statement  should  be  amended,  even  after 


of  a  party's  inventiniMvere  hfiT'  ,IIl,stratio<,8, 

■‘"other,  and  that  he  was  1 1  !  ‘ 10  I,os«ession  of 

°f  said  papers,  and  It  ;•  11 '  ut  L  111  to  possession 
a,u  "™"g,  undoubtedly  he ' n'’ ,that  tl,u  '>«tos 
“,,,w,d*  although  the  Si,  onv  of  •  *  a,,ow«I  to 
l,f n  taken.  Other  eases  the  e  ,  f  'T  yl’|)0ll0,lt  '““I 
jdmmiBtrator  tiles  «  pieih  " ’  08 
,av'”V"°  data  upon  r  T'  "itUl>ut 

'Intes,  &e„  or  wj  ,  correctly  state  the 

suoli  statement  witlu.ut  dl  'r  A  or„noJct  tiles 
tliat  amendment  should  he  * 10  facts  ,»of°i-e  him. 
conceive  it  proper  to  allow  siM  mt  1  cannot 

I!lll'tios  i»ve  or  mav  !  '  „  th  '  ameu^  ^ 

t|>c;  case  at  hand,  me  a  lo 't  .  i"1*™  ilmI  d«“«  "' 

skillful  attorneys  to  ,  employ  and  do  employ 
"either  themselves  norhv-'n  thulp  b»«"ess,  and 
a“eml  ‘o  the  business  i, |f1P  Utton,0>*  l'~|wrly 
I  cannot  conceive,  as  before'  i.  *  ,  , 
aa-v  "••possibility  in  so  '.  atetl> 1),at  ‘hero  was 
statement  in  this  case,  tlLtK®  U'e  I"'',imi,la'T 
t°i  amending  it.  it  js  ....  •  ,,L.  "n‘s  "‘O'  necessity 

iW’  »••«!  the  attend  to  ^meMn"-iSf,,,ti0n 
miw,  rules  must  he  adopted  .n  w^  8  °f  ali  <,ei" 
forced.  Where  proper  X  s  Ul  tl,e>’  must  be  en- 
bei'n  administration  of t I1,rese,,te«1  for  the 
‘hoy  should  receive  a  liberal  ,  n  eS’  un<1°»b‘edly 
'‘V*1  construction  sho  Id  ‘  f ''l,.ot,on!  b"‘  such 

i'our  Ob’t  Serv't, 

E-  -'I-  -Marble, 

tom.  of  Patents. 

Ex’d,  C.  p. 


Sawer  and  Max 

To  Amos  Broadnax,  Attorney  for  Sawyer  and 

Please  take  notice,  that  on  Friday,  June  10,  1881, 
at  eleven  o’clock  A.  M.,  at  No.  05,  Fifth  Avenue, 
New  York  City,  I  will  proceed  to  take  the  testimony 
of  T.  A.  Edison,  Charles  Batchelor,  E.  H.  Johnson, 
John  Kruesi,  and  others,  in  behalf  of  said  Edison, 
and  continue  the  examination  from  day  to  day  until 

You  are  invited  to  he  present  and  cross-examine. 

Dyer  &  Wilber, 

for  Edison. 

Washington,  D.  C.  Good  service  this  eighth  day 
of  June,  1SS1. 

Amos  Broadnax, 

Atty  for  Sawyer  and  Man. 


Sawyer  and  Man 

VS.  Electric  Lights. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

Pursuant  to  notice  hereto  annexed,  Mr.  Z.  F.  Wil¬ 
ber  appeared  for  Mr.  Thomas  A.  Edison,  at  11  o’clock 

5  XJ"”i  *»  M 

«  »■«  attawylV  XI-  W' 


^  m.  H.  Meadowckoft 

Notary  Public  and'  Commissioner, 

New  York  County. 

6  Pursuant  to  adjouiSlul^’  June1ntll>  W81. 

&  Man.  "aX  *“■  cou»sol  for  Sawyer 

j»5.'rs,‘l^Jux  s,T'r  *“  ~ 


be£f“he  J*«i  i»  We  OCT 

answer  to  questions  n,  ’  t.tlfieJ  as  follows  in 
D-'er,  counsel  for  taLi””'  °  '“m  by  Ge01*” 

cuXT”  y°m  “I  ee-Menco  „„  „c 

''Osidence,  M.„- 

York  City.  t  e  bl?lnff  living  in  New 

3  ments  in  tlTj^ni^li^  of'  r^'0"4  eXperi* 

»st»  tsx  r“/i,e  ^ 

Per  in  burners  for  electric  lamps  Pa' 

Such  paper  wmIo  uTedVrT  ®“mmer  of  1876. 

non-conductors  of  heat,  and 


S',  son  sells  out  nil  his  interest  in  his  electric  light  there 
a  reasonable  chance  for  a  suspicion  that  he  cm, 
snlers  his  invention  worth  very  little 
Mr  Edison’s  reputation  before  the  public  is 
founded  upon  the  newspaper  publications  about-  1 

rT,s:Sp!fgra,",;2-  t,,<! 

As  to  the  quadruple  telegraph,  I  mnv  My  that  it 
-in  ailaphition  of  the  French  and  tlenirui 
systems.  \Yl.en  Mr.  Edison  took  hold  of  the  i  Z 
there  were  already  known’ five  systems  of 
th**°  °f  4;I'lox-  ;l,"l  three  of  C-plox  and  8-plev 
The 4-j.lox  of  Edison  was  a  failure  ll  , 
y°  g  gentler  \  slant  LI  t  ,  „f  u  e 

S»r£  ‘s '''? —is 

. . 

S-CL1?''  K°r. «“•  Ki'«' 

the  American  Society  for  t)  &a^tosa  Conveiition  of 

ence,  and,  speciSv  ?  ,  advan“ment  of  Sci- 
First  w  *  !y>  1  chall<-‘nge  him: 

Second  To  vunht  “  VfCUUm  in  his  Imp* 

his  carbonized  paper  lamp  three 

horn's.  (In  practice,  in  a  perfect  vacuum,  it  will 

last  twenty  minutes.) 

THIRD.  To  consolidate  plathynn  by  heating  elec¬ 
trically  m  the  Sprengel  vacuum,  as  he  claims 
hoURTH.  To  prove  that  bis  dynamo-electric  ma¬ 
chine  develops  not  ninety,  but  even  fortv-five  per 
cent,  of  the  feet  pounds  applied  to  it, 
i  ieth.  To  show  that  he  can  obtain  a  light  of 
twenty-five  candles  from  platinum  with  less  than 
threc*horse  power. 

Sixth.  To  show  that  platinum  or  iridium  will 
not  disintegrate  in  twenty  hours’  actual  running 
Seventh.  To  prove  that  with  his  carbonized- 
paper  lamp  he  can  obtain  two  lights  of  ten  candles 
each  per  horse  power. 

Eighth.  To  show  that  the  effect  of  the  oxide  of 
magnesium  is  to  harden  his  wire,  and  make  it  more 

Anil  I  further  allege  that  all  Mr.  Edison’s  state- 
monts  are  erroneous,  and  J  offer  *100  as  a  prize  for 
urn  to  prove  each  of  the  above  eight  allegations.  < 
Let  bun  run  one  of  his  lamps  three  hours,  and  the 
public  will  be  satisfied  that  I  am  correct. 

_.r  „  W.  E.  Sawyer. 

7 8  Walker  street,  New  York,  Dec.  21. 


A.  A'y  'x-sicli-nc?  is  i»ai-k  x  ,  ,, 

n  «■  ;°  <n'1,!<>-vo'1  about  1ST: 

Blton  "  lM  »'*  *,  f*  Mr. 

•A.  1  dii|  carpenter  work. 

,:i  9'  (1>'l  any  particular  carpenter  work  fiw 

!r  e  ^ 

Pen  factory  ;  .ihonui  I l  ‘^1 ,  C,','Knter,"',,rk  ni  l,is 

of  '7(i.  '  ,l|p  r'll‘ "f  i.i  ;ind  llio  spriiiH 

spring  of ’7S.'  Mv  lal’01‘lt°lT.  about  tin 

to  do;  assist  ini'  anything  1  was  ask«’ 

cleaning  the  laboratory^ 3  suJhtS"” 
tliat  tune  my  work  Iris  i„«  ?k‘  An'1  smci 

tory.  assisting  wliero4r  I  «-1f,r°"n  ‘l  11,0  Iabora 
6  ?■  piooso-oxS,  ri 

marked  Edison’s  y°" 

signature  M.  J*.  Force  nun.,  ii"’  &  “to  "'huthur  tl" 

. 11  Ule  ''moratory  at  Menlo  Park.  I  have  seen  th 


-  n  'fr*’  1S  nuai  lls  1  <’1"1  ‘emumlier. 

, ,  .Is,  I*.  |  ,  0I1 1  exactly  know  which,  to  make 
me  carbons.  The  carbons  were  rolled  with  a  sort 
.  coating  of  tar,  and  carbonized  in  a  crucible 

iiHko  ‘  KOnlL‘,I,in«  of  that  description, 

a-  also  t  u lionized  m  ,  combustion  tube  V  nea.’ 
;  an  remember  at  that  time  they  were  put  in  the 
'I‘u,  °r  a  v«(:""m  pump.  The  air  was  then  ex 
msted,  and  an  electric  current  passed  through  the 

smSeff'll"  °n  Wl- ’ i*1*'  'S'C's-scnt  .lie  l.dl-jar 
'  }  f1  m  t,le  experiments  you  have  related 
L  aV°  oxamj,al  the  Exhibit  No.  0.  and  find  it 
*,s  ,,ear  a-s  I  can  remember  a  drawing  of  the 
ncimm  pump  which  we  used  at  that  time. 

Counsel  for  Edison  gives  notice  that  he  here 

!»  x-Q.  Where  were  1 1  it- r 
A.  In  tin-  laboratory.  at  Menlo  p„L- 

V  ')'Q;  'V1S  ,f  '%  «!LsIi-l,t  <>'•  >‘.v  daylight? 

wh‘*t,ie- — 1 

IJ!1J,;;Tg-  'V,,n‘  "!ls  ,h-  of  making  t>. 

1  of  the  experiment, 

'o-vy.  \Y  hat  experiment? 

A  The  experiment  shown  on  tl.e  paper. 

A  L1  m‘0SU  is  this  paper! 

wit  ?  Mr-  handwriting  so, in 

la  x-Q.  Did  you  see  liim  write  it; 

A  I  do  not  iHiiemW  seeing  him  write  it. 
writing?  C'm  •'°U  SVVe:"'  tilafc  ll*«t  is  his  hand 

witting!’’  Si‘'  1  "’°Ul,ln’'  "VUaP  that  il'*  llis  ’'and 

VTi t,wt  t,wt  I,ai,or  - 

atthatLT’oft°m2f  S"'W,1'that  ,'twaswritlc' 
^^'i^j^LZZ,wvyoa  sisned  y0U1 

itx.rcanevoohat  ‘"“‘’l  m>’  "feaatun,. 

Mture  on  December  BtUsTT}4  y°“  made  this  sig' 
A.  1  made  that  signature  at  that  time:  ves  sir 

r  that  you  signed  youi 

20  x-Q.  How  do  you  fix  the  date  of  the  making 
of  that  signature  on  that  paper? 

A.  I  have  no  particular  way  of  fixing  the  date, 
but  generally  at  the  time  an  experiment  is  tried  we 

-a.  les,  sir,  J  was  there  at  the  time,  hut  I  don’t 
know  the  details  of  the  experiment. 

x-Q.  What  was  intended  to  he  proved  by  the 

A.  I  couldn’t  say  what,  he  intended  to  prove. 
wl’1  )V,lat  <Il<l  t,1L‘  experiment  consist  of. 
What  did  he  do? 

A.  I  don’t  remember.  I  can’t  give  the  details  of 
the  experiment.  . 

Z 1  *-?■  ^ow  i*0  yen  know  that  the  experiment 
referred  to  on  that  paper  was  made  on  or  about 
December  ad,  1S77.  What  circumstance  can  you 
mention  that  was  contemporaneous  with  that  ex- 

.  A-  1  (lon’fc  know  that  I  have  anything  particular 
to  call  the  same  to  my  mind.  I  used  to  frequent 
tho  laboratory  to  sue  them  experiment,  but  did  not 
enter  into  the  details  of  the  experiments.  There  is 
no  particular  circumstance  that  I  recall  to  my  mind. 

25  x-Q.  Did  you  see  Sir.  Edison  make  anv  ex¬ 
periments  with  the  Exhibit  Edison’s  First  Incan¬ 
descent  Lamp? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  don’t  remember  seeing  any.  { 

2fi  x-Q.  You  say  you  assisted  Mr.  Batchelor  to 
make  some  carbons  out  of  paper  coated  with  tar. 
Did  you  mean  to  be  understood  as  saying  that  the 
carbon  you  assisted  Mr.  Batchelor  to  make  was  in 
the  form  of  a  knitting-needle? 

A.  The  carbons  that  I  assisted  Mr.  Batchelor  to 
make  w  ere  rolled  by  the  hand,  coated  with  tar,  and 
in  the  form  of  a  small  cylinder. 

27  x-Q.  How  big  were  they? 

6  or  three  inches'.  °  ol>  t"'°  i»''he 

30  x-Q.  How  innnv  «.f  >• , 

A-  I  would  not  s;iv  ’is  to  It  *  **  iou  mukoj 
,n«yl.ave  been  ten  '  T,lw 

31  x-Q  Did  you  *  rVi  }  lave  1,60,1  fifty 

vacuum  chamber  of  t'l,  '  '  wse  carbons  put  in  tin 

son  Exhibit  No.  n;  f  rol,,1“e"t«I  by  Kdi 

32  x. 'o’  tl  !tl,lMk  1  1,1 0SL'  put  in. 

in  that  chamber""  i,"K‘ yo"  Slnv  tliose  carbons  put 


there  ^vLov^Cno^r  ^  1  t,,ink 

. .  . . . 

A.  I  wouldn't  swear  tint  tl,..,. 
two;  there  may  have  been  '  \iv  . .  •  "'0ru  ,110rfi  11111,1 
mo  as  to  that  point  '  "wmt”V  *»*  serve 

34  x-Q.  ty.,  .  ' 

experiment?  '  p,Viit‘1'1  during  the  whole  of  the 

lionizin(;nmI(lttho  v'11'  Alr'  at  thu  car- 

present.  ‘  i)  ,u  hut  I  was  usually 

A-  Yes,  sir;  l“‘s«w'k  vacu,,m  pump? 
time.  ’  UsuI  t0  the  pumping  most  of  the 

the  electric  coi.,?!^’0  .*i!,oso  carbons  illumin.-iterl  |„- 

P’aced  and  illuminatetl? 



^  40  x-Q.  Did  the  experiments  hist  more  than  one 

A.  I  would  not  sayas  to  that.  I  don't  remember 
low  many  days. 

41  ,X'Q'  Who  was  present  during  these  expert- 
■outs  besides  yourself  and  Mr.  Batchelor? 

A.  I  think  Mr.  Edison  was  present.  I  don't  call 
J  mind  any  others. 

idn  two  l^i*  l*1L'  ''xi)ull,uu,lts  continued  more 

A.  I  don't  remember  how  many  days.  It  may 
ave  been  one  or  two,  or  perhaps  a  week. 

43  x-Q.  Can  you  swear  that  these  experiments  con- 
mind  for  more  t  han  two  days  in  the  fall  of  l>7$? 

A.  I  would  not  swear  that  they  were  continued 
ore  than  two  days,  although  they  may  have  been? 

44  x-Q.  Can  you  swear  that  they  were  continued 
r  two  days? 

A.  I  think,  as  near  as  I  can  remember,  tliny  were 
ntinuedfor  that  length  of  time. 

4;>  x-Q.  When  the  carbons  were  illuminated  by 
the  electric  current,  how  long  did  they  last? 

A.  I  would  not  say  as  to  how  long  they  lasted  ex¬ 

4(i  x-Q.  Well,  about  how  long? 

A.  As  near  as  I  can  remember,  they  lasted  prob- 

the  first. 

ESx-Q.  And  v 

°  thi*  best  of  my  rocollorti 

Ii-iS*/ Mr'"  “•.•J,,1,XS0X-  11  "'‘"“-'ss  produced  in 

follows  S°";  0i"K  ,lu|y  testified 

lollops  in  answer  to  (|uestions  proposed  by  (icoi 
"  •  DW  counsel  for  Edison: 
wlLl.Stn,°  f0"r  1'esillt,n,-,!  a,,d  eccupation.  „ 

Fdisn  ,  Vv  yo,U  aiu  <,M,!  "r  ,h(!  assistants  of  ,\ 

Steri',;,'"" . . . . . 

A.  I  reside  in  .N'ew  York  citv  m. 
that  of  a  practical  elect, 7b TZ, 
STff  >'«'-»•  l»-'cticaiiy  ^ 

SSv'rirfvr  it 

alwnyl  wi^ 

al  ajsiutb  the  parties  win,  were  putting  Mr.  Ed 
him  and  blsTvorkwore  suell'tt  re,at,°n* 

quent  visitor  at  bis ory  '  "  VOrjr  fn 

perimentsof  Mr’1^-1’"’^  ',0  you  k,J0"’  of  the  on 
the  ™  ook!  ?  Elllson  1,1  tlio  summer  of  1ST.;,  i, 
Quest;011  °f  ■I>atW1' for  various  purposes. 
Question  objected  to  in  so  far  as  it  a.mlie 
to  electric  lighting.  if  it  !  ^  I1’?  ' 

A.  In  tbe  fall  or  winter  of  1ST*:  I  sou-lit  to  or 
;*u  a  slllad  business  for  myself  under  tbe  nam, 
f  ie  American  Novelty  Company,  tbe  objec 
«hicb  was  to  acquire  numerous  inventions  of 
Kuisnii,  Mr.  Balrhdor,  Mr.  AiIhiiis,  mv  own 
others,  and  to  put  tlieni  upon  the  market.  Sev 
such  were  aepured.  namely.  Edison's  duplica 
ink,  Edisons  battery  carbons.  Edison's  jewel 
engraving  lnaebines  and  otliers  which  I  cannot  i 
recall.  The  attempt  to  form  a  companv  toenrn 
such  a  business  was  practically  a  failure,  owin' 
tbe  lack  of  funds.  I  remember,  in  discussing 
Mr.  Edison  at  bis  laboratory,  quite  prominent  l 
tion  was  made  of  numerous  articles  which  be. 
Edison,  was  intending  to  manufacture  of  carlm 
cannot  now  recall  all  of  them  in  detail,  but 
wore  such  articles  as  dishes,  small  vessels,  rr 
mice  coils,  battery  carbons,  etc.  I  remember 
frequent  occasions,  seeing  Mr.  Edison  carbon 
<  <*rtain  of  Uiust*  articles  uwU*r  jinvsiuv,  that  I 
the  parlicular  feature  of  the  invention.  In  dr 
sing  the  matter  with  Mr.  Edison.  Mr.  Batchelor 
Mr.  Adams,  they  informed  me  that  they  pur] 
making  such  carbons  of  bituminous  coal*  papei 
wood.  My  knowledge  of  the  experiments 
necessarily  confined  to  information  given  me  at 
time  by  these  gentlemen,  as  1  was  so  occupic 
Aow  York  that  my  visits  to  the  laboratory 

mainly  for  the  purpose  and  with  the  object  of 
suiting  with  Mr.  Edison,  and  not  in  assisting 
in  his  experimental  work. 

•1  Q.  At  what  date  do  you  know,  of  your 
knowledge,  of  Mr.  Edison  engaging  in  experin 
m  the  electric  lights,  with  incandescent  condm 
made  of  paper  carbon? 

A.  I  fail  to  recall  now  the  .exact  date  when  I 
saw  Mr.  Edison’s  paper  carbon  experiments. 

+  Q.  When  was  your  first  knowledge  of  Mr. 
son’s  experiments  m  electric  lights? 
i  A-  In  the  summer  of  1  STS.  on  bis  return  fro n 
Colorado  scientific  expedition,  which  he  had  aci 

Eil want  II.  Johnson. 

pained  for  the  purpose'  of  endeavoring  to  n 
t lie  heat  of  the  corona  (lin  ing  the  son’s  eclip* 
etasimcder,  which  he  had  invented.  ; 
tins  date  that  n,y  .eeollee.ion  n.ns  freelv  as 
,  .  11  s  electric  light  work.  Prior  to'  tied 
tln.^tha,  he  did  did  no.  sufficient!  • 

vonQ'1Si"<y  th"  1,1  What  ha 

;.°  11  k"""’ledge  with  regard  persistent  ai 
turnons  work  on  the  n  irt  of  \r,  1  . 

descent  elect rica'l  lights'  ^  "Mum' 

Ini' a  given  ohject.  ' 

Q-  "flint  is  the  earliest  date  within  von. 
lection  of  the  einplovnieiit  of  paper  carbon  a 

raster.*:*"' . 

when  ]  visited  M*  Xpp1,>1<  ll,S  "ntil  Ji"'»nrv, 

E'hnml  11.  Johnson.  107 

.SX-Q.  Please  to  fix  the  date  when  .Mr.  425 
hdison  returned  from  the  scientific  expedition  or- 
ganizca  to  observe  the  sun’s  eclipse? 

A.  I  can't  fix  that  date  from  memory. 

!l  x  V'  any  memoranda  to  which  von 

can  refer,  hy  which  yon  can  lix  the  date; 

Not  to  my  knowledge.  I  do  not  make  it  a 
script ioi/'" ,St'I  Vli  ""“"’‘"‘nida  or  papers  of  any  ,\k 

in  x-Q-  f  on  say,  in  answer  to  (piestion  -tot'  your 
examination  in  chief,  that  the  first ■  knowledge  volt  42 6 
had  of  Mr.  Edison’s  exiieriments  in  electric  lights 
was  in  the  summer  of  187$,  after  his  return  from 
he  scientific  expedition  to  which  T  have  referred. 

I  lease  to  state  whether  yon  derived  that  knowledge 
Irom  others  or  whether  yon  witnessed  those  experi¬ 
ments  yourself; 

A.  I  witnessed  numerous  experiments  mvself. 

11  x-Q.  These  experiments  that  von  say  von  wit¬ 
nessed  yourself,  were  they  made  immediately  upon 
Ins  return  from  the  scientific  expedition  referred  to?  127 

A.  I  cannot  now  recollect  whether  thev  were  or 
were  not. 

12  x-Q.  State  how  long  after  his  return  von  wit¬ 
nessed  these  exiieriments.  as  nearlv  as  von  can 

A.  I  am  unahle  to  do  that,  being  wholly  without 
other  guide  to  my  recollection  than  my  memory 
that  it  was  immediately  upon  his  return  that  lie  be¬ 
gan  .active  experimentation  on  the  electric  light. 

Pi  x-Q.  These  experiments  that  you  say  you  wit-  428 
Mussed,  is  your  recollection  of  them  sufficiently  dis¬ 
tinct  to  enable  you  to  describe  them;  If  so.  please 

A.  No,  sir:  it  is  not,  1  only  remember  the  fact 
of  frequently  seeing  Mr.  Edison  and  his  assistants 
occupied  with  them.  My  interest  was  not  enlisted, 
and  I  did  not  particularly  examine  into  or  investi¬ 
gate  this  branch  of  the  laboratory  work. 

14  x-Q.  In  answer  to  question  fi  of  your  examine- 

•smk‘  other  wist*  tlio  %hl  that  was  shown.' 

'f1'"  '.li'1  wit,"-s  ',xll,‘inueu1 
•  '■  I,S?"  111  ,n,a"*losront  electric  light 

K *-'arl  ionized  paper  in  the  winter  of  JSTs  ?i 

.  i  '  ™"m,t  S!,-v  I«>sitivc*ly  that  such  experi . h 

"I'11’  •"',0U  llu‘  ill('ill"1^'‘,nt  principle  a' 
i  iJt  i.Tr  '  n"  "r  ",ww  ^  in.ents  being  to, 

no . 


saw  it  ‘  l'°1'  ni,;  “*  wlii-ii  I  firs 

than  o.  ‘  •sll'nv,•,l  mu  hi*  light  on  .nor, 

«^rsrK;r,hJ  to  m  vonr  question. 

Edison  Ha von  1° ' i'4  r°,U  il  was  that  .Mr 

yu  lriv  T  «ie  tasimeter  to  whir! 

IZn a)d  °'  1‘catoffh 

ratio?  S^M  '  umif’  axp'tlition  to  Colo 

AinlT  llr  111  tbor  "  «  ttetl  i 

‘■on.  tliu  Lmotoi  " heim-m  '-I’l'0"1:  eM'U""0!''a 
t!  tl  telepho  It"  !' ontion  coincide,, 
latter  lialf  of  tlio  ven  ’ „  T  U,,,°  ,,unnB  «« 
^  Tl-  is  ^  ‘ho  yea 

Enw’n  H.  Johnson. 

1  "’"'""•ntnig.  r  think  it  was  ...atle  about  the  paper  is  ilateil.  That  is  November, 

‘‘fi  Have  yon  any  doubt  upon  that  point? 

A.  I  liave  no  reason  to  he  donhtfnl  about  it,  hut 
I  t  reineinher  wlien  I  signed  it. 

4  <?•  Whi,t  was  your  or  pmctice  about  sign- 
ng  similar  papers'? 

Objected  to  as  not  competent.  The  ques. 
turn  is  as  to  when  he  signed  this  paper. 

A.  I  generally  signed  them  within  a  few  days  af- 
IM-  w'ae  written,  or  after  the  instrument  was 

“  0-  "  hat  is  the  earliest  date  which  you  reniem- 
er,  of  Mr.  Edison  experimenting  with  electric 

earliest  date  you  remember  of 

,  ,  . .  •  iiiKi  generally 

wlimnciil  works  mi  Menlo  |»ark? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

H  x-y.  AVIjoji  did  you  . . ioneu  to  |Jt.  f, 

(I  wlicn  did  you  cease. to  In-  foii-inaii!  ■ 
f'Iu  LI  1  H  .■ember  of  IS77.  and 
be  foreman  in  February,  fi«l. 

Hi  x-Q.  Do  you  recollect  seeing  .Mr.  Ed  iso  i 
)•  exponmonts  in  fleet  rie  lighting  with  < 
J  J»™K  t%  til  no  f  hut  you  was  fore 

riiiRMiU  WI,W1  ,iW  •VOH  *««>• 

w  ’i:n*  w;liL'st  1  romi-ndn-r-wasi,,  is7H. 

■  x  'nit  turn-  was  it  in  i>7;i> 

_  Hunk  it  was  in  sununor. 
l-l  x  Q.  AVhiit  was  the  experiment;! 

I'01'seshoe,  substantially  li 
o  Liunjf  IS""  S  CV""""Mvii'1  Inciindesci-i, 

ont  witif0  ' T‘  1'.C'c"ll,'cl  s,,oing  ill-.  Edison 
E  mI-  'p""1  I)a,,C1'  in  tins  lamp  , 
i  ison  s  E.\  hi  hit  l-irst  In,  and, -scent  Lanin* 

A-  I  do  not  recollect  it  1 

>  aim  constantly  going  in  and  out  of  the  labor, 
my  as  a  workman! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  And  111  it  same  is  1  rue  during  the  time  th.- 
ou  was  foreman! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

x-Q.  Did  you  put  these  binding  posts  on  th 
imp,  Edison's  first  incandescent  lamp! 

A.  No;  I  did  not  put  them  on  personally. 

x-Q.  Did  you  see  them  put  on  ! 

A.  No;  I  do  not  recollect. 

x-Q.  Do  you  know  who  put  them  on! 

A.  No;  I  do  not  recollect  who  put  them  on. 

Do  -vou  1-ow  when  they  were  put  on? 

-!9  x-Q.  Who  did  you  have  in  the  machine  shoi 

f  Mi.  Ellison,  lining  duly  sworn,  festif 
i'vs,  in  answer  to  questions  proposed  i 
leorge  W.  Dyer,  counsel  for  Edison. 

1  (J.  Please  state  your  age.  residence  ai 

A.  Age  twenty-eight,:  residence  Men]. 

occupation  manufacturer  of  electric  la 
-  Q.  State  whether  at  any  time  you  wei 
inploynient  of  Sir.  Edison,  and  what  v 

fence  to  my  accounts,  and  will  do  so.  \ 
upation  was  making  a  search  through  tl 
f  Electric  Lighting  in  the  Astor  Liiirar 
lis  was  completed  to  Mr.  Edison's  sati 
utered  his  employ  at  Menlo  Park  to  ass 
taking  calculations. 

Q-  What  special  training  or  acquire] 
on  for  making  such  calculations? 

LIGHTING  CO.,  VOlI  5.] 

especially,  whirl,  ivmls.  ••  I„  t]M,  scaled  f 

518  e  ednr  lamp  which  contains  an  a*, tic  or  other 

K  St  im  °f«,vat 

trn,  fi  t,,  ,i  ’  af'(:l'.lv'",,HR  the  claim  and  the 
s  '  In  in  •  '  ■Sl,ec,h™ti"'l.  you  think  v. 

"  .itunent  in  your  magazine  article  is  too  broad' 


'iiaganiiie  .nto|y,  of 

mSSi «  **  im 
it  LIS IT'S* “  “» '--a  « of  „ 

« 1. 

52U  Fiiani'is  R.  Urror- 

J«^S°«nldy  “T"1  t0  Tln"'s,lliy.  June  W 

’  a‘  . same  hour  and  place. 

tlie  parties  to  this  interior 

earliest  date  which  von  reiiieinher  of  Mr.  Edison’* 
experiment ing  with  electric  liglits."  to  which  you 
answered,  *•  I  am  not  sure  whether  it  was  the  sum¬ 
mer  of  '77  or  summer  of  '78  "  Please  state  whether 
you  have  made  such  examination  of  memorandum 
hooks  since  giving  the  above  answer,  as  will  enable 
you  to  fix  the  time  more  definitely  i 

Objected  to  on  the  ground  that  it  is  a  re¬ 
examination  of  the  witness  on  a  point  about 
Which  he  had  already  been  examined. 

■John  Khi'ksi,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf  of 
Mr.  Edison,  testifies  on  oath  as  follows,  in  answer 
to  questions  proposed  by  Oeorgo  \Y.  Dyer,  counsel 
for  Edison: 

40  Q.  Have  you  been  previously  examined  in  this 

A.  Yes. 

41  Q.  Since  your  former  examination  have  you 
found  a  memorandum  hook  which  enables  you  to 
fix  with  certainty  dates  about  which  you  were  uncer¬ 
tain  wlien  you  testified  before  i 

Question  objected  to  upon  the  ground  that 
it  is  intended  to  call  out  matter  and  facts 
about  which  the  witness  has  been  already  ex¬ 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

42  Q.  Refreshing  your  memory  by  such  memoran¬ 
dum  book,  what  is  the  earliest  date  you  are  able  to 
fix  in  which  Mr.  Edison  was  engaged  in  experiment¬ 
ing  upon  electric  lights ! 

Objected  to  as  immaterial. 

A.  January  the  5th,  1877. 

43  Q.  If  you  have  such  memorandum  book,  please 
produce  it  and  describe  what  the  book  is  i 

Objected  to  as  immaterial  and  impertinent. 

50  x-Q.  And  doos  this  hook  show  tlio  time  that 
ran  was  at  work  on  different  kinds  of  work  for  Mr. 
Edison  ! 

x-Q.  51.  Whore  was  yon  working  from  .Juno  the 
loth,  lS7i!,  to  .January  id,  |s77> 

A.  1  was  working;  for  Mr.  Kdisnn  in  . Newark, 

N.  J. 

5-  x-Q.  Are  all  tlio  entries  in  this  hook  made  in 
lead  pencil! 

A.  All  except  a  few  entries  in  the  last  four  leaves 
if  tile  hook,  and  three  entries  in  October.  1875. 

5!i  x-Q.  Referring  now  to  the  entries  in  this  hook 
made  on  the  page  beginning  with  January  id.  1877 
—do  you  swear  that  the  entries  on  that  page  are  all 
in  your  own  handwriting,  and  that  they  were  made 
hy  you  on  the  day  of  the  date  set  down  in  the  left- 
hand  column  of  the  page! 

A.  Yes,  j  ;,in  positive  that  they  are  all  in  my  own 
handwriting,  and  that  they  are  put  down  not  later 
than  the  next  following  Saturday  to  these  respec¬ 
tive  dates,  or  on  the  same  day  that  they  an*  dated. 

54  x-Q.  Does  the  column  of  figures  on  this  page 
headed  Particular  Jobs  represent  the  number  of 
hours  you  were  employed  each  day  upon  the  job 
mentioned  in  the  middle  columns,  in  which  the 
name  of  the  job  is  given! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

55  x-Q.  Does  this  represent  your  own  time,  and 
not  the  time  of  somebody  else! 

A.  It  is  only  my  own  time.  - 
50  x-Q.  By  this  hook  it  appears  that  January  5th 
you  worked  three  hours  on  electric  lamps.  What 
kind  of  electric  lamp  was  you  working  on,  and  what 
was  you  doing  to  it  during  those  three  hours! 

A.  I  do  not  remember  the  lamp,  nor  exactly  what 
I  did  to  it. 

57  x-Q.  Is  the  same  true  as  to  the  work  it  appeals  von  done  on  olcct.vic  lamn  on  January  Cth — l 


7.v  .4.  Edison. 

533  5S  x-Q.  Is  this  vonrbook? 

A.  Yes.  sir. 

5!)  x-Q.  Your  own  private  property; 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

(>U  x-Q.  Has  it  been  in  your  possession  over  since 
it  was  made? 

A.  It  lias  been  in  my  possession  ever  since  I  made 
the  entries. 

01  x-Q.  Why  didn't  you  refer  to  this  book  and 
produce  it  when  you  was  previously  examined  in 

534  this  case? 

A.  I  was  called  to  this  examination  from  my 
place  of  business  in  the  City  of  New  York,  and  the 
book  I  kept  in  my  bouse  at«Menlo  Park,  New  Jer¬ 
sey.  Therefore  I  did  not  have  it  at  hand. 

x-Q.  02.  Have  you  got  any  more  books  ben  line 
upon  this  subject; 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  some  more,  but  to  my  know¬ 
ledge  they  do  not  bear  upon  this  subject. 

”(;:i  X'Q-  How  does  it  happen  that  there  are  no  en- 
3°  toes  in  this  book  from  June  13,  '70,  to  January  2d, 

A.  The  entries  may  be  in  another  book,  on  ac¬ 
count  of  the  dissolving  of.partneiship  between  Mr. 
Allison  and  Mr.  Murray  at  that 'time. 

Jonx  Kkuesi. 

nun  i  TH0^8  A'  Ed,sox  resumes  his  testimony  as  fol- 
536  lows,  this  30th  day  of  June,  1881: 

llrf'5,Q/  jAyour  answer  to  question  374  you  have 
"‘  lat',  tl,e  nature  °f  the  duties  of  the  assistants 
employed  by  you.  Please  do  so  noiv? 
lot'  F™nfs  Jehl  was  employed  generally  to  assist 
“  °f  exllei'irnent.s.  John  Ki-uesi  was  fore- 
6  T  !1"  sll°Pi  Clla''les  Clarke,  matl.e- 
dm  «  lftIne<!,a,,ician;  Charles  Batchelor,  prin- 
Ha  * Stanton  general  experimenting;  William 
Jr  sasto  0»  vacuum  pumps;  Mr.  Her- 
nek,  timb-keeper  for  the  lamps;  Dr.  Haid  and  Mr. 

Stephen  1).  Field. 

needed  no  further  explanation  from  him  as  to  win 
lie  proposed  to  do. 

('HAS.  . . . 

By  consent,  the  taking  of  testimony  was  post 
poned  to  Wednesday,  July  13th,  ISSt  at  same  plan 
at  ten  o’clock  A.  M. 

Wm.  H.  Mkaiiowchokt, 
Notary  Public. 

New  York  County. 

I’arties  met,  pursuant  to  adjournment,  on  Wed 
nesdav,  July  13th,  1881.  and  adjourned  hv  consen 
to  Saturday,  July  tfltli.  1881,  at  In  o'clock  \  M 
at  same  plan-. 

Wm.  H.  MKAiHiwritorr, 
Notary  Public, 

'  N.  Y.  Co. 

Parties  met,  pursuant  to  adjournment,  en  Sat  Ur 
day.  July  Kith,  1881,  and  adjourned  by  consent  to 

M..  at  same 

Wm.  H.  SlKAiimviatiin', 
Notary  Public, 

'  N.  Y.  Co. 

1  ursuant  to  adjournment,  this  testimony  was 
continued  Wednesday,  July  iinth.  1881,  at  |n  A.  M„ 
same  counsel  being  present. 

Stkpiikn  I).  Fiki.d,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf 
"f -Mr.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  testifies  as  follows, 
in  answer  to  questions  proposed  to  him  by  (ieorge 
"  •  Counsel  for  Edison  : 

1  Q.  Please  state  your  name,  .age,  residence  and 

A.  Stephen  Dudley  Field;  3ft  years  old  ;  residence, 
New  York  ;  occupation,  electrical  engineer. 

:t( j.  When  at  Menlo  Park,  at  the  time  named, 
d  you  see  Mr.  Edison  |ierform  any  experiments 
incandescent  electric  lighting,  and  if  so.  please 
ate  what  the  experiments  were  ; 

Question  objected  to  as  going  to  prove  that  730 
the  invention  was  made  before  the  date  al¬ 
leged  in  the  preliminary  statement  of  Mr. 
Edison,  and  notice  of  motion  to  strike  it  out 
at  th.e  hearing. 

A.  I  went  there  at  Mr.  Edison's  invitation  to  wit- 
■ss  experiments  in  incandescent  lighting.  The  ex- 
•rinient  consisted  in  the  heating,  by  means  of  a  hi- 
i  rut  unto  battery,  of  small  crystals,  of  what  Mr. 
lison  called  silicon,  said  crystals  being  supported 
'tween  carbon  damps.  . 

4  Q.  Please  examine  exhibits  marked  Edison's 
xbibitsNo,4aiidNo.  13,  already  in  testimony  in  this 
ise.  and  slate  whether  or  not  these  exhibits  indi- 
ite  substantially  the  character  of  the  experiments 
Inch  you  then  witnessed  ; 

Objected  to  as  immaterial  and  incompe¬ 
tent.  Notice  of  motion  to  strike  out. 

A.  The  experiments  which  I  witnessed  are  indi¬ 
ted  in  Figures  1  and  ■<  of  Exhibit  4.  and  the  mid- 
e  and  lower  Figures  of  Exhibit  No.  13.  The  ex-  1 
ption  being  that  the  source  of  power  in  the  exper- 
lents  was  a  bi-chromate  battery  in  place  of  mag- 
ito  machines,  as  shown  in  the  exhibit. 

5  Q.  During  that  visit  to  Mr.  Edison,  did  lie  ex- 
ain  to  you  what  ho  had  previously  done  in  nuan. 
scent  electric  lighting,  and  if  so,  what  explana- 
>n  or  information  did  he  give; 

Same  objection  and  same  notice. 

A.  My  recollection  is  that  he  stated  that  tins  l 
silicon  he  hoped  would  give  him  a 

,  ,,1'ol,lem  °f  inaiMiloscent  lighting.  Hwrrtid  tip 
have  no  recollection  or  any  conversation'  l„.t 
in  «‘.\co|>t  ho  referred  to  a  note  hook  which  1, 

ho'lV(1  . .  "‘■'••rein  he  hail  first  disrovoml  tl„. 

imdeseent  properties  of  silicon.  '  ’ 

a  y.  Do  yon  recollect  whether  01  not  .Mr 
»'ke  of  materials  for  iurandesrent  n.nihirtJ 
, 1  i  “f.  Previously  tried  hy  him  and  fom.i 
1  OXldlznlilt*?  1,1 

Same  objection  and  same  notice 
;'!-v  recollection  is  that  we  had  a  general  con 
■i.silion  on  the  subject,  the  details  of  which  Inc 
m-eveD  ahnos,  entirely  escaped  my  memor!- 
‘  t  ,Iui-i,'K  f'lese  cxporimeni 

MV  —  besides  you, -self  ami  Mr.  Kd 

•Same  objection. 

A-  lb-.  Cornelius  Her/,  now  in  i>.,,.;.  .  i  ,, 

tchelor.  i  believe,  and  one  or  two  of  Mr.  'iclifej 

her  m'  K,iiSO"  *'•■*  ""tire  that  b, 

b  ‘-closes  Ins  examination  of  this  witness 
•md  odors  him  for  cross-examination. 

Mi'Vm  ^  S|  "'.i,',a.',  a  witness  produced  in  belia 
.  r;"'  sworn,  testifies  as  folloa 

li* r  statey",n'  — *  “«*  . . «" . - 

tinHelT'\!'  */  ~'J  •Vwlrs  rcsidenrt! 

!  occupation  an, Mini  I, onus,  m 

ai'ked  Edison  s  Exhibit  No.*.  and  state  wl 
not  you  read  the  same  soon  after  its  pulilii 
the  newspapers' 

Objected  to  as  immaterial. 

A.  I  have  examined  the  paper  shown  me; 
it  might  have  been  one  month,  Imt  not  Intel 
ree  mouths,  after  its  publication! 

I  y.  Did  you  ever  hoar  William  K.  Sawyer 
the  authorship  of  that  article,  marked  Kd 
diihit  No.  s' 

■  y.  How  often  have  you  beard  him  so  spea 
Once,  certainly:  and  I  think  twice. 

>  V-  Repeat  wlmt  he  said  as  nearly  as  yi'i 
Member  it  ! 

Objected  to  as  ineomiietentand  immat 
\.  1  can't  state  what  he  said:  he  called  ui 
ition  to  the  article,  and  asked  me  if  I  had  re 
aid  “  No.’’  I  then  read  it, 
y.  How  did  lie  speak  of  it— as  his  article! 

Objected  to  as  leading, 
t.  I  can't  say  that  he  did.  My  impression 
I  “  my  challenge.’' 

y.  Do  you  remember  what  lie  said  win 
led  you  to  read  the  article! 
t.  1  don’t  recollect  any  more  than  what  I 
I,  positively. 

y.  Have  you  heard  the  article  referred  to  i 
sence  as  hisarticle? 

Objected  to  as  incompetent, 
n  Not  in  those  words  as  coming  from  him 
impression  derived  from  what  lie  said  led  n 
ik  he  wrote  the  article. 

0  Q.  Have  you  heard  the  article  referred 
presence,  as  his  challenge,  or  as  Sawyers' 
ge  to  Edison! 

Objected  tons  incompetent. 

.  Not  hy  other  parties,  hut  when  Mr.  Sav 

Thomas  H.  fit illu, 

741  II  Q.  A iy  you  ncipinintcd  with  Mr.  Willi-,,,, 

Sawyers  signature?  "" 

A.  Vos,  sir. 

.  12  Q-  pleilC|-“  I'xamine  | Ik-  paper  ll(>w  s,mwii  „ 
slate  wl.  other  or,  lot  tlic  signature.  \V.  E  Saw, 
is  >»  the  handwriting  of  William  K.  Sawver'  ' 

,  .  n01,j('C,ei1  to  i,s  incompetent. 

A.  i  Hunk  it  is— yes.  sir. 

‘3 IQ.  Have  you  any  papers  in  y„m  possession 
l  of  William  E.  Kawve  «  . 

742  his  signature'  •  ' 

tJuS'*''*1  1,1  i,S  ami  imin 

A.  1  have. 

14  Q.  Please  produce  I  he  same? 

Same  objection. 

j  I'"  |,a',e,r  mentioned  is  put  i„  evideue 
and  is  marked  Edison’s  Exhibit  Xo.  2,-j 

. . i-*™ 

Second  paper  referred  to,  be-in-'  a  note  i, 

,  .  °l'jeck'11  as  incompetent  irrelev-m. 

immaterial.  ' . 

cle  put  iif'ev!  l  StaU‘ if  -V0U  ,il1'1  ««o  newspaper  ar.i- 

A.  I  find  it  published  in  the  paper  dated  o 
date— January  ISSu. 

lit  Q.  Also,  is  tile  paper  now  shown  you  tli 
extract  cut  out  of  tile  newspaper? 

A.  Yes. 

Extract  referred  to  put  in  ovidem 
marked  Edison's  Exhihit  Su.  2a. 

Objected  to  as  incompetent  and  no  pi 
anything  except  its  own  existence. 

17  Q.  Were  you  subpoenaed  as  a  witness 
case  for  Mr.  Edison? 

I'iloss-KXAMIXATIOX  11V  AjtOS  liltOADNA.V  El 
Counski.  roll  Sawyer  &  Max: 

1  x-Q.  When  was  this  paper  marked  Exhihit 

A.  I  can't  give  the  date  of  it. 

2  x-Q.  How  do  yon  know  this  paper  is  in 
handwriting  of  Mr.  Sawyer? 

A.  It  is  the  same  handwriting  I  have  always  s 

4  x-Q.  About  how  many? 

A.  I  couldn't  state  about  bow  many:  I  have  b 
connected  with  him. nearly  three  years. 

»  x-Q.  Can  you  swear  that  you  saw  Mr.  Saw 
write  ten  times  in  these  three  vearsi 

A.  Yus,  sir. 

a  x-Q.  And  use  the  same  handwriting  ev 

A.  Yes,  sir:  with  one  exception— when 
couldn't  see. 

7  v.n  tud  <•/>!.  as.  him  write  when  lie  could 

Wifi  uun  #SYi  wfft‘  r. 

“i?1™  ' . .  . . . . 

»•**  “-■■> 

. „ 

750  j-erl'is  K?  Itft,illt  '"  Ih,L  ■'iimlwriiin,.  <if  Mr.  mh„. 

A.  I  do  not. 

a.  Ti  !w)t'v"11  k,,ow  w'Mher  '>-*  n  , 

■at‘;ss,s**” . 

z*. . . 

hibitsSs ;  "  Vlm  wm,«  f'"*  PHHT  K.\- 

A.  \o,  sir. 

Tims.  H. 

to  wm 

1  li!-  1  lease  state  vo» . 

occupation;  '  °  age.  residence,  and 

cation/  Earle's  H»tcl  * ”*'*1  -”***<  81,5  •,rB80l,t  ,'“ 
near i  .....  “  tu  ,  occupation.  irenM,...,,, . 

.,  o  '  ,  one.  . 

tlie  electrician"'  fi,thw  °f  "'iHiatf,  K.  Sawver, 
A.  Yes. 
a  n  pi,.. 

•!  Q-  Please  examine  the 


.vci.  nen\  Dei ng  the  author  of  this  challenge  i 
A.  No,  sir;  nor  I  never  heard  him  acknowlcd 
.1 -utter  part  of  the  answer  object ed  t 
counsel  for  Edison  as  not  responsive. 

■r>  Q.  Have  you  not  stated  within  a  week  that 
son.  William  E.  Sawyer,  wrote  this  challenge  l„ 
referred  to; 

Objected  to  as  incompetent. 

A.  I  may  have  made  that  remark.  I  couldn't 
that  I  did  not.  1  have  no  recollection  of  ma 
'hat  remark,  neither  will  r  say  that  this  is  the  . 
IfiMjie,  shown  me.  that  lie  wrote. 

<1  Q.  Have  not  you  stated  within  a  week,  that 
went  into  a  certain  place,  and  found  your  son 
fating  this  challenge  to  a  messenger  hoy' 

Objected  to  as  also  being  incompetent. 
A.  Emphatically,  no.  I  mav  have  stated  tin 
understood  that  he  did  dictate 'to  a  messenger 
and  the  messenger  hoy  wrote  it  down  as  it  c; 
IVoni  liis  lips,  Imt  not  from  my  personal  knowlci 
ft  was  hearsay. 

7  Q.  From  whom  did  you  understand  that  V 
nun  E.  Sawyer  dictated  that  challenge  to  a  mess 
ter  hoy. 

A.  I  couldn’t  tell ;  not  within  my  recollection. 

8  0-  Pid  you  ever  hear  tin's  challenge  talked  o’ 
a  tlie  presence  of  William  E.  Sawyer? 

A.  No,  sir;  to  the  best  of  my  recollection,  I  net 
card  tlie  subject,  matter  talked  over  in  his  presein 
itlier  witli  myself  or  any  other  parties. 

. . „"  * . .  “*■  ™ 

■i~S«'t:;j-’^,"";'r' . ■**«> 

tliat  In-  really  didn't  k  *  ’  .M"  tost,fl'; 

l5  ®“mS  Potter  tj’ ' 

ivaJw-Httenr  ^""V'0"' 1,,at  *«« 

written  l>y  a  District  t!.i  di. ink, and  it  wr 

and  |le  told  Ed.  |„.  |,.,(]  ‘n!’' I’ '  )"-/'t  ,lis  ''ictatim 
■says.  “I-v,  ,01;  .i  '/  ^  a  mistake."  and  K, 
swerit,”  I  don’t  know  ti  l1,’"0  l('  J’f"T  can't  ai 
l«it  that  l«,  wn(1 «  Ktt“«  cS'  ,,,‘ w,w ',™'" 

VilS  ,eiV,  TOi  ta  f«  last  pa 

want ; ";!!1;;'1f-h  fiisuu's  Kx,,ii»><  x<>.  *. 



a,^„.  ■„  m™"'''  B* 

1,011  wwcii  °™  wa  0.^  °,mvUi, 

. •  p»ttasi;,v  ii?£";rs«s 

A.  He  mentioned  the  fact  that  the  , 
wilten  in  the  “  Sun  "  just  before  Christa 
7  x-Q.  Did  he  say  that  lie  saw  his  son 

A.  I  went  to  H.  Dralle,  •»:!  Walker  street,  an, I  h 
told  me  that  William  Sawyer,  Sr.,  could  give  men 
Hit*  information. 

a  x-Q.  What  did  you  want  of  Mr.  Khnrpct 

A  1  wanted  some  excuse  to  have  an  interviev 
with  Mr.  Sawyer. 

10  x-Q.  And"  the  object  of  your  interview,  as  I  nn 
derstand  you,  was  to  see  what  you  could  suck  out  o 
. . about  this  matter! 

A.  Not  to  suck  out  of  him,  but  to  obtain  any 
1  "in#?  1  could  that  would  benefit  my  employers. 

Jasiks  A.  UrssKi.i.. 

'Iajiks  D-  1*ottkk,  a  witness  produced  in  behalf  of 
Mr.  Edison,  testifies  as  follows,  in  answer  to  ques¬ 
tions  proposed  to  him  bv  George  W.  Over,  counsel 
for  Kdison. 

I  Q.'  Please  state  your  nn  morale,  residence  and 

A.  James  D.  Potter;  age,  87;  residence,  atm  Man- 
batfan  avenue,  Brooklyn;  I  am  engaged  in  mining. 

-  Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  William  Sawyer, 
who  has  just  testified  in  this  case  and  in  this  room! 

A.  I  am  acquainted  with  the  gentleman  who 
Lillies  himself  William  Sawyer.  I  have  just  come 
in  this  building  and  did  not  sue  Mr.  Sawyer  here. 

•IQ.  Have  you  had  a  conversation  with  William 
sawyer  lately  about  the  authorship  of  an  article 
allied  a  challenge,  published  in  the  Now  York  Him. 

;iml  if  w.,  tt-lmn  unit  .vl.,.,,.  ,|;l  , 

hearsay  testimony,  as  contradicting  the 
ment  made  by  one  of  Mr.  Edison's  ow 
nesses.  '  ' 

fjtpm  ^  Q*  Please  statu  \vJ,at  Mr  s.,u.v,  . ,  . 

m;:rprr . 

itv,"as  f^rFf1 Id, 

n*  t',ei;„it,;rst  : --'t £.u." "r 

articles  of  his  son's  ,  „  f  ' l'«<l  '-■'<< 

etc  He  sod  ..  ,v‘.  1  '  ,,‘dnc,,.v-  <&‘rtri< 

December  V'"  ^  ■?'  T"'  that  dmll°' 


. .  ':,ni <:■ 

. . 

of  Mr.  Edison,  testifies  ns  follows  in  answer  to  i|iie 
tions  proposed  by  George  W,  Dyer,  counsel  for  Ed 

1  Q.  Please  state  your  name,  axe,  rosideneeaml  (ii 

A.  James  E.  O'Keetfe  of  Ha  Monroe  street.  .W 
^  Ark;  otliee  boy  to  the  A  Id  i  tie  Publishing  Compam 
axe  la. 

-  Q.  What,  were you  doing  before  you  went  in  tb 
olliee  of  tile  Aldine  Publisliinx  Company? 

A.  Working  in  E.  Daly's  boat  shop' 

!S  G.  Where  before  that? 

A.  With  .Matthew.  Loach  &  Co.’s  wholesale  am 
retail  tea  store. 

4  Q.  Were  you  ever  in  the  employ  of  the  Amorieai 
District  Telegraph  Company.  If  so.  when  am 

A.  In  the  loth  District,  from  May.  is'ti,  unti 
February,  1SS0. 

a  Q.  Look  at  ibis  newspaper  article  I  show  you 
which  is  marked  Edison's  Exhibit  So.  s.  and  stat( 
what  you  know,  if  anything,  about  that  article? 

A.  I  remember  bearing  him  speak  about  a  dial 
lenge,  and  there  was  words  in  it  that  1  couldn't  spel 
and  he  told  me.  how  to  spell  them— big  words. 

(j  Q.  Did  you  write  that  article  from  anybody', 

A.  Ves,  sir. 

T  (j.  When  was  it;  and  where  was  it? 

A.  In  Dralle’s  lager  beer  saloon,  corner  of  Elm 
and  \Valker  streets,  in  December,  1  S7!>,  on  Sunday 

5  Q.  What  did  you  do  with  the  article  after  you 
wrote  it  from  dictation! 

A.  I  handed  it  hack  to  Mr.  Sawyer. 

!>  Q.  Then  what  did  you  do  with  it? 

A.  He  put  it  in  an  envelope,  and  I  went  up  to 
the  Sun  office. 

i-cliiof  of  tins  wilnoss.  !H1,1  tri v<* 

»»s;rsr'- “»-« 

)',l,s  ^l<;  you  wrote  fy 

■  V  T  'T  l,nn*t‘^  i»  Hu.1  “  Sun 

foion  k,,,w**1  'IMii't Ht-o Uf  ‘ 


A.  No.  sir. 

m,il '&*  ''•'-I- 

“^?«xsss.r' . 

it  i"s.  Si,yt1,i"  nil.  l*i lit  I  kno 

17  X'Q-  Have  you  . . 

«ci  ^  0,0"^^*, iu,MMrw- 
tJZluT  M!  «™y«  ,,, 

il  t  nn-'  'I,ln<l  I  lie  linr.  Mr 

A-  He  noted  like  it 

Q-  Have  you  ever  written  any  other  paper 
dictation  for  anybody  else  1 
A.  Yes.  sir  :  once  lieforc  :  for  a  man  down  in 

Counsel  for  Edison  gives  notice  that  the  tesliinon 
in  hehalf  of  Edison  closes  here. 

Wm.  H.  Mkaiiowckoft, 

Xotarv  Public, 

New  York  County. 

I,  Wlt.UAM  H.  Mkahuwckoit.  a  Notary  Polili, 
witliin  and  for  the  City  and  County  of  New  York 
and  State  of  New  York,  do  hereby  certify  that  th 
foregoing  depositions  of  Thomas  A.  Edison.  Marti] 
N.  Force,  Edward  H.  Johnson.  John  Kruesi,  Franci 
E.  Upton,  Charles  Batchelor,  Stephen  D.  Field 
Thomas  B.  Stillman.  William  Sawver,  James  A 
Russell.  James  D.  Potter,  and  James  E.  O’Keeffe 
were  taken  on  hehalf  of  Thomas  A.  Edison,  ii 
pursuance  of  the  notice  hereunto  annexed,  befon 
me,  at  No.  tie  Fifth  avenue,  in  the  City  of  New  York 
on  the  I0th,  11th,  13th.  Nth.  lath,  tilth,  17th,  IStli 
27th,  2-Stli,  29th  and  :10th  days  of  June,  ISS1,  an, 
the  7th,  8th.  9th,  13th.  ltlth  and  20th  days  of  July, 
1881;  that  each  of  said  witnesses  was,  by  me,  duly 
sworn  before  the  i  i  t  lent  of  his  testimony; 
that  the  testimony  of  the  said  witnesses  was  written 
out  by  Henry  W.  Seely  and  Richard  X.  Dyer,  they 
having  been,  by  me,  duly  sworn  to  record  the  same 
faithfully;  that  Amos  Broadnax,  Esq.,  representing 
the  opposing  parties,  Messrs.  Sawyer  and  Man,  was 
present  during  the  taking  of  said  testimony;  that  said 
testimony  was  taken  at  No.  tin  Fifth  avenue,  in 
the  City  of  New  York,  and  was  commenced  at  11 

Notary’s  Certificate. 

789  oclockA  M.ati\o.  05  Fifth  avenue  aforesaid  on 
the  loth  day  of  Juno,  1881,  and  was  continued  ,mr 

suant  to  adjournment,  on  the  11th,  13th,  14th,  15th 

10th,  17th,  18th,  27th,  28th,  29th  and  30th  days  of 
Juno,  1S81,  and  the  7th,  Sth,  9th,  13th,  loth  and 
20th  days  of  July,  1S81 ;  and  was  concluded  on  the 
last  me„t,oned  day;  and  that  lam  not  connected  by 
blood  or  n,arnaKe  with  either  of  said  parties,  nor 

790  In  testimony  whereof  I  have  hereto  set 

my  hand  and  affixed  my  official 
seal  at  No.  65  Fifth  avenue,  in  the 
said  County  of  New  York,  this  21st 
day  of  July,  A.  D.  ISSI.' 

.  H.  Meadowcrost, 

“  J  Notarj-  Public, 

New  York  County. 

EDIS0N'S  EXHIBITS,  NO.  2,  NO  10  NO  11 

LiafKrrwmrT8^-  '■ 

Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  25.  W.  H.  M.  No¬ 
tary  Public,  N.  Y.  Co. 

Mit.  Edison  Ciiai.ksckh  isy  Mu.  Sawykh. 

To  the  Editor  of  the  Sim— Silt:  Notwithstanding 
the  assertion  that  one  of  Mr.  Edison's  electric  lamps 
has  been  running  for  210  hours.  I  still  assert,  and 

a  single  gas  jet  (to  lie  more  definite,  let  us  rail  it 
twelve-candle  power)  for  more  than  three  hours. 
To  be  still  more  definite.  I  offer  to  Mr.  Edison,  at 
220  West  Fifty-fourth  street,  in  this  city,  an  oppor¬ 
tunity  to  prove  what  lie  says.  From  the  private 
residence  in  that  street  wires  are  run  a  on  cm  o 
1,000  feet.  Mr.  Edison  shall  have  every  facility  - 
he  shall  use  my  wires:  he  shall  have  any  dynamo 

machine  or  other  generator . .  la 

mav  prefer;  and  all  1  ask  is  that  the  povvei  ol 
his  light  shall  he  measured  by  a  plioto-we  .e, 

that,  once  in  place,  it  shall  noth . terle  ;d  .  - 

and  that  a  committee  or  gentlemen,  prole, am. 

inated  by  the  editors  of  the  New  ’t  oil,  pi  p 
ho  present  and  certify  to  the  facts  of  w*  p  • 

Furthermore.  I  will  place  one  of  my  . ,  >  £'"  > 

side  with  Mr.  Edison's;  it  shall  be  run  a  e  I  ^ 
of  twenty-five  candles  :  i it  sha '•» Ip*.  ^ 

forty  lamps  at  Menlo  lath,  inn  .  I 
twenty-five  candles:  my  lamp 
up,  and  Mr.  Edison  to  put  up 
as  the  preceding  lamp  shall  ha'  e  mi  nu  • 

I  an,  anxious  for  this  test; 
really  run  one  of  his  h.pp ^  1  '  ^  fn).  he  will  he 
will  not  refuse  to  accept  in, 
treated  with  the  utmost  courtesy  md  shall 

everything  his  own  way.  original  clial- 

I  adhere  in  every  part.culni  to  my  & 
lenge  to  Mr.  Edison.  w  g  Sawykh. 

78  Walker  street,  New  York,  Jan.  i. 

_ 7/ic  Sun,  Monday,  danuaiy  , 


Sawyer  &  Man  I 

vs.  V  Electric  Lamps. 

Edison.  J 


Brief  for  Edison  in  Support  of  his  Appeal. 

In  this  case  reliance  will  be  had  upon  the  arguments  sub¬ 
mitted  in  behalf  of  Edison  before  the  Commissioner  of 
Patents,  which  arguments  will  he  found  in  the  printed  briefs 
of  Hon.  Roscoe  Conkling  and  of  George  W.  Dyer,  filed 
herewith  and  made  a  part  of  this  brief. 

These  arguments  will  also  be  relied  upon  as  to  the  errors 
in  law  and  fact  in  the  tiecision  of  the  Commissioner,  and  set 
out  in  this  appeal  herewith  submitted. 

Roscoe  Conkling, 

Geo.  W.  Dter, 

For  Edison. 

October  29,  1883. 



>vk„,  0„  October  8  S  "flkcC„ln  of  P„In„, 

^  *  CrJ,;  3S.*rSLC» . . . 

/tea sons  of  Appeal. 

The  Commissioner  erred  i„  the  followi,,,,  particular, . 

As  10  Mailer  of  Jy,w. 

1.  In  determining  tlmt  if  the  invooii.m.  i  •  .  , 

respective  purtics,  are  not  «0„i  .  ,,  ulal"'°d  by  the 

Sawyer  &  M„„  ar^  Tot  in:  ‘  tlw  "r,  if 

enoe  must  necessarily  be  dissolved!" ‘°r8’  th6"  ^  r,,t0rf<ir- 

parties  were  “substantially* b°f  rCSpective 
ployed  paper,  and  botli  ’  >ecail8e  both  cm- 

;rnde^t;,eetli^^:^^  *  1"  «» 

rhic";n  uw°^ 

same,”  viz.,  u  similarity ‘in  Th!'1  to.  be  “  substantially  the 

the  result  attained.  mode  of  ^ration,  and  iu 

Having  found  that  Sawyer  tirsi 
ir  carbons  for  incandescent  lam 
Ian  participated  in  subsequent  i 
aper  after  it  was  carbonized, 

3.  in  determining  that  under  . 
Man  were  joint  inventors  of  i 


Having  found  that  Edison  ha. 
on  conductors  for  electric  lamp 
on  had  the  requisite  qualities  o 
iiass  necessary  to  develop  his  th 

4.  in  determining  that  Edisoi 
uipcr  carbon  conductors  until 
iu  had  ascertained  from  expel 
ilamentsand  had  devised  a  bettc 
n  his  lnmps. 

5.  In  determining  that  Sawy 
nvention  wlicn  their  lamp  had 
lid  make  it  wlien  their  lamp  hu 

6.  In  determining  that  the  1 
.vere  not  proof  of  an  abandonin' 
per  &  Man,  because  there  was  p 

7.  In  determining  in  effect  th 
cannot  abandon  the  common  lm 

bonized  paper,  where  the  paper  gave  the  high  electrical  re 
sistance  and  the  consequent  light,  and  Sawyer  &  Man’s  con- 
ductors  were  paper  carbons  built  up  by  hydro-carbon  depos 
its,  where  the  deposits  alone  caused  the  low  resistance,  and 
alone  gave  the  light,  * 

2.  in  determining  that  these  two  conductors  were  “sub. 

stantiallynlike:” -  . . 

3.  In  determining  from  the  proofs  that  Sawyer  &  Man 
invented  paper  carbon  conductors  for  incandescent  lamps  in 

4.  In  determining  from  the  proofs  that  Edison  invented 
paper  carbon  conductors  for  incandescent  lamps  in  1879 

5.  In  determining  that  Sawyer  &  Man’s  paper  carbons 
were  perfected  inventions. 

6.  In  awarding  priority  of  invention  to  Sawyer  &  Man 
contrary  to  the  proofs  in  the  case. 

7.  In  not  awarding  priority  of  invention  to  Edison,  in  ac 
cordunce  with  the  proofs  in  the  case. 

In  view  of  the  pecuniary  interests  involved  in  this  appeal, 
heLing  0'  18  re8pe°,full>'  ^quested  to.  grant  an  oral 

Titos.  A.  Edison 
by  Geo.  W.  Dyer, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  October  17.  imT*  C°N“ 

,  -  .  .  v"nl.V  himself 

“  tnu''  °no1Mal  mid  first  inventor  of  the  said  i 
mimt,  and  also  paid  into  the  Treason-  of  t 
d  States  the  fees  required  by  law,  and  present 
“  Commissioner  of  Patents  a  petition  setti 
lus  desire  to  obtain  an  exelnsive  property  in  sa 
vement  and  praying  that  letters  patent  n’.i-ht  f 
purpose  be  granted  onto  him ;  and  also  ,1 
and  hied  in  said  ofiiee  of  the  Commissioner 
s  a  written  description  of  his  said  in.proven.e 
hfu  l  clear  and  exact  terms  as  to  enable  a, 
skilled  in  the  art  with  which  the  said  iniprov 

s  most  nearly  . . eetod  to  make  ami  use  tl 

which  description  yvas  duly  signed  by  the  sai 
is  ,Uy-a  Edison  and  attested  by  t«o' yy„„essc 

1  ;“f°r°  tlM  <>f  tl.L  lettei 

»  At  hereinafter  mentioned,  by  an  i  ti  1 1 

'tlTT'^V1'"’  deh'-ered  by  hi,  ],  , 

ten  the  last  day  named,  did  assign  to  yon 
and  its  successors  and  assigns,  all  the  right 
wLatoww  In  an.1  to  tlio  m  limp,  y 
“  “metric  lamps  and  holders  for  the  same 
Mors  Patent  of  the  United  States  tl.'.t 

eh  tllu  »“*««  >»  tlio  Southern  District  of  X,.«- 
lork  mid  elsewhere  by  making,  selling  „n«l 

i  T"h'  v  hoM  an<1  -»  nfores, M 

the  Southern  D, strict  of  New  York  nn.l  elsewhere 
.  improvements  covered  hy  sni.l  letters  patent  HB(1 
ouch  of  hem,  or  suhstnntinl  or  nmterinl  parts  o"  them 
, c  "':  ,,f  t,";m :  ,mt  i>r«.-cis,a.v  h,,w  i„„g  the  ,u-. 
ftndant  lias  made,  sold  and  used  the  said  improve 

:!zrr;t  - . 

23  its  answer.  '  u’mHI«d  to  set  forth  the  same  in 

,'l  v/\  —  i 

large  gains  nml  ,  OIIltor  1|,LS  1,l'e'>  deprived  of 

fringemei.t  Of  the  1  f tSl! by  ru'l8°n  °f  t,l<!  «f««isnid  in- 
danfnges  thelefron! .  "  * ,,,,,,  h,‘S  h«Bo 

your  orator  uTer'i*  3.°"r  HollorH  to  grant  unto 
of  and  under  the  seT'f  '"junction,  issuing  out 

fi  •  i  Sr® .  * 118  Honorable  Court 

41,0  81,1,1  Unlte<1  States  Electric  Lightim 
commanding  it  to  appear  and  nmkoans 
complaint,  and  to  iierform  nud  abide 
herein  as  to  your  Honors  shall  seem  me 

The  Ediso.v  Electihc  Light  C 
By  Eugene 

0  John  C.  Tomlinson, 


Willum  M.  Evaiito, 

John  C.  Tomlinson, 

Bichaiid  N.  Dyer, 

Of  Counsel. 


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Edison  v.  Gray  &  als.  (1883) 

This  pamphlet  contains  an  8-page  brief,  filed  on  Edison's  behalf  bv 
Dyer>  requesting  the  U.S.  Board  of  Patent  Examiners  to  reconsider  its 
grant  Elisha  Gray  priority  in  the  dispute  over  a  patent  application  foi 
rTss-fl  i  d  ei?ctric  generators.  (See  Edison  v.  Lane  v.  Gray  v.  Rose  v 
L 1882  J.)  Portions  of  this  decision  have  been  quoted  in  the  brief.  - 

George  W. 
decision  to 
r  a  circuit 
.  Gilliland 

§cfbw  %  (fomimwita:  uf  patents* 

In  this  case  the  Board  of  Examiners  in  Ohief  determined-: 
that  Gray  was  the  prior  inventor  in  the  following 

“  0thor  applicants  were  involved  in  this  interference,  hut^ 
dropped  ont  on  the  decision  of  the  Examiner  of  Interfer¬ 
ences  finding  priority  in  Gray.  Edison  alone  appealing./ 

“  The  matter  in  issue  is  declared  to  be :  •  y 

“‘The  combination  of  a  main  circuit  and  a  dynamo  or 
magneto  electric  machine  with  a'  shunt  or  short  circuit 
•  aronnd  the  machine  and  means  for  automatically  controlling 
.  and  breaking  snch  short  circuit  immediately  npon  and  con¬ 
tinuously  during  the  operation  of  the  machine.’ 

“  ®»e  material  matter  consists  in  ‘  means  for  automatically  : 
breaking  such  short  circuit  upon  and  continuously  during  the  vWk 
operation  of  the  machine  ’—the  2d  claim  specifically  setting'’ . 
forth  such  means. 

;  “  It  is  conceded  by  Edison  that  Gray  had  fully  reduced  to 
a  working  machine  all  that  he  here  sets  forth  and  claims, 
as  early  as  October,  1878. 

“  Gray  made  application  December  81, 1880.  Previous 
to  this,  however,  in  October,  1880,  Edison  had  sworn  to  and 
filed  another  application  for  this  identical  device,  in  which 
-Howard  H.  Johnson  was  joined  as  joint  inventor. 

“  Int°rference  was  declared  between  Gray  and  Edison  and 

Edison  and  Johnson  May  81, 1881.  ‘  U  JiU180n  ana 

“Some  nine  months  after  Gray’s  filing  and- four  months 
after  such  interference  was  declared,  Edison  filed  the  pres¬ 
ent  application,  to  wit,  September  19,  1881. 

“Edison  now  attempts  to  go  back  to  187VT2  and  show 
the  reduction  to  practice  of  substantially  the  same  invention 

z  t  s:::" ofi ”  >""d“a  “a 

It  seems  to  have  been  a  device  of  like  character  and 
working  on  the  same  principles,  and  designed  for  tele¬ 
graph  signaling,  for  fire  alarm,  stock  quotations,  4c. 

“He  seems  to  have  experimented  with  it  and  for  the  uses 

*  iVnnprnH  ^DCd  “*  ““d  have  boeD  satisfactory 

%1U  operation  so  far  as  to  demonstrate  to  him  that  a  device 
<on  that  plan  would  be  feasible  and  successful. 

J .  “  The  d6Vic®  te  now  Prasents  is  so  widely  different  in 
vconstruction  from  that  old  affair,  that  the  conclusion  is  un-' 
avoidable.that  only  the  principle  is  the  same-whinb  was  old 
perfected*5  me0h“,#^  lnVention  now  «  contest  was  not  then 

‘However,  admitting  for  the  sake  of  the  argument,  all 
that  can  be  claimed  for  it  as  an  operative  machine. 

“  It  was  tried  and  exhibited  for  sale,  and  no  sale  or  use 

could  be  made  of  it,  and  it  was  thrown  aside,  and  its  soul 
jvent  out  of  it  and  into  some  other  machine,  and  after  more 

int“n,>  “  7? 11  ,S  a?tc™ptcd  ,0  8huut  thc  breath  of  life  back 
into  it,  and  that,  too,  after  it  sunk  so  far  into  the  dust  of 
.  decay  and  the  darkness  of  the  past,  that  its  progenitor  had 

toh'im  a  drg°t,en  u*  *  ex!sted>  when  Johnson  came 
to  him  and  proposed  begetting  between  them  the  same  identi¬ 
cal  device.  And-it  seems  that  lie  was  only  brought  *o  a  con 
sc oneness  of  his  former  conception  and  giving  birth  by 

raking  amongst  the  debris  of  his  work  shop  and  finding 
P°°”einain8>  ?fter  berag  incited  thereto  by  the  applU 
ca  on  Of  Gray  and  the  declaration  of  such  interference 

it  is  too  hto  Cr  *°  that  Mr  EdUon  D0W  6ay8-  but 
“Another  independent,  industrious  and  meritorious  in¬ 
ventor  came.into  the  field  and  completed  and  perfected  an 
invention  for  which  he  came  to  the  Office  for  a  patent,  all 
before  Edison  appeared  with  any  counter  claim. 

fTaiT  d°ne  n°tMng  e!nee  his  abandoned  experi- 
i  ments  of  1872,  except  what  he  did  in  connection  with  John- 
aon,  which,  instead  of  aiding  his  case,  militates  against  it. 

must  “ffiem  the  decision  of  the  Examiner  of  Inter¬ 
ferences,  and  find  priority  in  Gray. 

“  R-  L.  B.  Clahk, 

H.  H.  Bates, 

•Examiners  in  Chief.” 

'  ^  W,i'lbB°bSe^d  that  the  Board  fiDd  in  effect,  that  Edi¬ 

son  s  Exhibit  Magneto  Signal  Box”  was  made  in  1872- 
was  put  in  use  to  the  extent  of  demonstration  of  successful’ 
operative  capacity,  that  it  covers  the  issue  in  controversy, 
but  award  priority  ot  invention,  to  Graf',  who  made  his  in-' 
vention  in  1878,  upon  the  ground  that  Edison  abandoned  his 
invention  illustrated  in  his  “  Signal  Box.’-’ 

It  is  not  overlooked  that  the  Board,  in  their  opinion, 'as- 
sume  that  “  the  material  matter  consists  in  means  for  auto- 
.  matically  breaking  such  short  circuit”  in  a  particular  way 
in  spite  of  the  fact  that  the  issue  is  a  ciaim  for  the  combin¬ 
ation  of  four  elements,  each  by  implication  of  law  being  old 
and  nothing  being  new  but  the  combination  of  them  in  one ! 
machine,  and  the  “means”  referred  to  consequently  being  '  ' 
of  course  precisely  as  important,  and  no  more  important  - 
than  any  other  element.  . 

Neither  is  it  overlooked  that  the  same  opinion  determines 
arcatora,  without  a  particle  of  proof,  that  the  “principle” 
of  Edison  s  Signal  Box”  “  is  old;”  and  that  Edison’s  “  Sig- 

nal  box”  differs  so  widely  in  construction  from  the  devices 
shown  in  the  various  contestant  applications  that  “the  con¬ 
clusion  is  unavoidable  that  only  the  principle  is  the  eame,”. 
sinco  it  i9  a  matter  of  no  consequence  how  great  the  differ¬ 
ence  is  so  long  as  each  embraces  the  issue,  which  is  not' dis¬ 

The  case,  then,  turns  upon  the  question  of  ahandonmeut 
as  affecting — 

1.  Ajudgmentof  priority  of  in  vention  in  an  interference. 

2.  Thejight  of  inventor  to  a  patent. 

/  ■  Priority  op  Invention. 

\  The  statute  law  with  regard  to  interferences  in  the  Patent 
Office  had  its  beginning  in  the  act  of  1793,  Sec.  9,  where  the 
(,  right8  of  interfering  applicants  was  submitted  to  arbitration, 
'‘and  there  was  no|deacription  of  what , the  rights  shoiild 

This  statute  remained  unchanged  until  the  act  of  1886,  Sec. 
’ll.  when  the  Commissioner  of  Patents  was  authorized  to  hear 
interferences  “  onlhe  question  of  priority  of  right  or  inven¬ 
tion,”  and  “to  detefmine  which  or  whether  either  of  the 
applicants  is  entitled,  to  a  patent  as  prayed  for.” 

This  .statute  remained  unchanged  until  the  act  of  1870 
Sec.  42,  which  eliminated  “  the  question  of  priority  of  right  ” 
and  retained  that  6f,  “priority  of  invention;”  and  instead 
of  (authorizing  the  Commissioner  “to  determine  which  or 
^whether  either  of  tti>  applicants  is  entitled  to  a  patent  as 
('■prayed  for,”  “the  Commissioner  way  issue  a  patent  to  the 
party  who  shall  be Adjudged  the  prior  inventor.” 

•  Here  is  exhibited  a  gradual  growth  of  interferences  from 
an  arbitration  voluntarily  entered  into  by  the  contestants  to 
determine  conflicting  rights,  to  an  examination  by  the  Com¬ 
missioner  of  Pateqts^vithout  the  consent  of  the  contestants  ' 
firet,  upon  priori^  right  and  of  invention,  with  a  disere! 

tionary  power  over  the  issue  of  a  patent  to  either  or  neither- 
contestant,  then  upon  priority  of  invention  alone,  with  a 
right  to  the  patent  on  the  part  of  the  prevailing  party,  unless 

some  lawful  reason  to  the  contrary  should  appear.  Under 

the  Btatute  the  Commissioner  may  award  priority  of  inven¬ 
tion  to  a  contestant,  and  remit  the  question  of  the  grant  of 
a  patent  to  another  and  difierent  examination.  It  will  be 
noticed,  that  the  law  makes  no  provision  for  the  issue  of  a 
patent  to  the  unsuccessful  party  in  an  interference. 

act  ofei870ent  8tatUt<!’  SeC'  49°4’  “  a  C°IJJ  °f  Sec-  42  of  the 
It  is  urged,  then,  that  the  Board  of  Examiners  in  Chief,  in 
an  interference  proceeding,  has  no  authority  of  law  to  de¬ 
termine  any  question,  except  that  of  priority  of  invention 
alone,  or  the  simple  fact  which  of  the  contestants  was  the 
first  to  make  the  invention,  and  all  questions  which  relate 
to  lawful  reasons  for  the  denial  of  a  patent,  as,  for  instance, 
that  of  abandonment,  are  to  be  settled  by  the  Commissioner 
with  the  successful  party  as  an  applicant  for  a  patent,  and  ' 

aWard  °f  Priority  of  invention. 
And  the  Rules  of  Practice  (rule  120) ,  precisely  limit  the  . 
Board  of  Examiners  in  this  respect. 

H  y 

What  Constitutes  Invention,  } 

priority  of  which  is  to  be  determined,  must  be  settled  by  the 
Statute,  section  4886,  which  describes  it  as  “any  new  and 
useful  art,  machine,  manufacture  or  composition  of  matter,” 

*  *  *  “  not  known  or  used  by  others  in  this  country, 

and  not  patented  or  described  in  this  or  any  foreign  country, 
before  hiB  invention  or  discovery  thereof.”  *  *  * 

The  other  provisions  of  this  section  do  not  touch  the 
quality  of  invention,  but  give  the  grounds  upon  which  a 
patent  muBt  .be  denied  to  the  first  inventor  as  an  applicant, 
viz.;  public  use  or  sale  more  than  two  years  before  applies! 

tion,  and  abandonment  of  the  invention; 

These  bars  above  referred  to  to  the  grant  of  a  patent- 
relate  however  only  to  the  first  inventor,  and  give  no  right 
to  a  patent  to  a  subsequent  inventor,  since,  if  the  bars  exist 
against  the  first  ipventor,  his  invention  inures  to  the  public  • 

und  no  person  is  entitled  tb;-a  patent.  '  ' 

The  great  error  of  the  Board  was  in  determining  that  a 
subsequent  inventor  was  the  prior  inventor,  if  the  party  who 
made  the  invention  first  had  abandoned  it 
It  is  urged,  then,  that  the  Board  was  in  error  in  determin¬ 
ing  that  Gray  was  the  prior  inventor. to  Edison,  who  hud 
made  the  invention  six  years  before  Gray,  because  Edison 
nad  abandoned  his  invention. 

•  HL 

As  a  matter  of  law  and  of  fact,  Edison  did  not  abandon 
his  invention. 

;  .Th*  ^  aPpirauce  of  the  b"  of  abandonment  is  in  the 
~  °f  1®.7°’  See'#  wblch  is  now  the  present  statute,  Sec. 
4886;  which. provided  that  abandonment  of  the  invention  is  . 

,a  bar  to  a  paten t,  mere  the  abandonment  is  proved. 

Itis  wel!  settleifijhat  the  law  does  not  favor  the  bar  of 
-abandonment,  but  requires  conclusive  proof 

^ThMV™- “  u-he  snPP°aed  abandonment  all  comes 
frbm  Mr.  Edison  and  his  witnesses,  and  is  substantially  this: 

ortwrarc“tf',ts's“l  Box” was  made  iu  th®  a"mrner 

ti87A  8ome  of;$e  parts  bave  bee,‘  mislaid,  (f.  85  ) ' 

The  signal  box  w£  taken  to  Hew  York  and  set  up  in  the 
relay  room  of  the  G61d  and  Stock  Telegraph  Company  and 
?“*  ’P  T  *  witb  a  oall  bell,  and  worked  two 

r  ?Jofi872.  If'LT  PerfBCtb'’  (f-47°  thi8  Wa9  in  the 
Did  not  intend  to  apply  for  a  patent  on  it,  because  there 
was  no  field  for  its  use ;  if  there  had  been  such  a  field  should 
have  applied  for  a  patent,  (f.  49,  50.)  Krueasi  saw  this 
Signal  Box  ’  complete  first  in  1873  and  since.  (I  108)  Ott 
“mplete  in  1873,  and  since,  (f.  116,)  as  late  as 
_  1879.  (f.  12;.).  Yorce  has  seen  it  laying  around  Edison’s 

establishment  for  the  last  five  or  six  years,  (f.  126.)  Wurth 
aw  it  before  1876,  and  in  the  summer  of  1876  withdrew  the 
permanent  magnets  for  other  experimented  work.  (f.  144.) 
ihe  Signal  Box”  seemed  complete  then.  (f.  145.)  Murray 
took  the  signal  box  to  Hew  York  in  1873.  believes,  as  far  as 
c  knows,  that  the  box  was  laid  aside  and  abandoned  at  that 
time.  (f.  178,  180.)  Left  Mr.  Edison  in  1875.  (f-177.) 

It  does  npt  appear  that- these  magnets  were  withdrawn  by 
Wurth  with  the  knowledge  or  consent  of  Mr.  Edison, 
look  up  the  invention  again  in  the  summer  of  1879  (f. 

inform.^0  Tra8nhTuWa8  demand  for  magneto  calls  (f.  64)  ; 
informed  E.  H.  Johnson  about  it  in  1880  (f.  163),  and  to- 
f6t ' tbey  made,  the  invention  described  in  patent  238,098, 
dated  February  2,  1881  (f.  162). 

This  is  all  of  the  evidence  touching  abandonment 
Mere  de  ay  in  applying  for  patent  is  not  abandonment. 

itelleher  v.  Darling,  14  O.  G.,  673. 

•  ,^UBSeI1  a»d  Erwin  n. Mallory,  5  Fish.,  682. 

And  delays  do  not  affect  the  inventor’s  rights  until  another 

party  appears  in  the.field  with  the  same  invention 
Carr  v.  Smith,  5  O.  G„  30. 

Hockhausen  v.  Weston,  18  O.  G.,  557. 


The  luthority  of  the  Commissioner  in  granting  patents  is 
limited  by  the  statute,  and  he  can  grant  a  patent  only  to 
the  first  inventor.  •  . 

if  possible  y  °f  the  C0UrlS  'S  *°  Uph°ld  Pate"t8  aS  valid  grant8> 
The  courts,  therefore,  apply  general  rules  of  law  in  suits 

upon  patents  fortheirinfnngement,andrefusetoallowpatents 

to  be  disturbed  by  proof  of  incomplete,  unsuccessful,  experi-  ' 
mented  or  abandoned  machines  which  exhibit  an  invention 

■  who  °t  PStent 5“  SUU’ and  the* «ive  n° consideration 
whatever  to  a  prior  invention  not  put  in  material  form. 

_  The  Commissioner  of  Patents,  however,  is  boqnd  by  the 
Statute  and  is  authorized  tolconsider  only  the  invention. 




c<hf&%,  <v 

wbetlier  or  not  it  is  put  in  material  form ;  and  if  it  bus  been 
“known  or  used  by  others  it} this  country,”  before  (Gray’s) 
invention  or  discovery  thereof,  be  cannot  grant  Gray  a  patent 
oraward:  himipriority  of  invention. 

.  The  question  of' abandonment,  so  far  as  it  relates  to  Mr. 
Edison,  is  not  whether  tbo  “Signal  Box”  was  abandoned  or 
broken  up,  but  whether  the  invention  displayed  in  tho.“  Sig¬ 
nal  Box”  iB  proved  tp  have  been  abandoned. 

l.-If  Edison;wasthe  first  u.  make  the  invention  the  Com-1 
missioner  has  no  authority  of  law  to  aw'ai-d  priority  of  in¬ 
dention  to  a  later  inventor:  ^ 

.21  If  EdiBon  abandoned  .'the  invention  his  invention  goes 
.  to  .the  publid; and  notito.a'lafer  inventor. 

.  3^  The  question  of*  abandohment  cannot  be  settled  in  an 
interference '  proceeding  between  contestants,  but  can  only 
be  settied  with  theupplicant  as  such,  with  the  full  right  to  the 
various  kinds  of  appeals  given  to  an  applicant  and  denied  to 
a:  contestant;  i? " t.  • 

^i_  4;  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the!abandonmeut  by  Edison  is  not 

p :  Edison  should  have  an  award  of  priority  of  invention, 

o|/his  application  remitted -to  the  Examiner  of  the  class, 
^proper  proceedings  there, upon  the  question  of  abandon- 

l0iW  ASHiuaioS-i^ay  :10,  1883. 

I®'  p  ' 


Geo.  W.  Dyer, 

For  Edison. 

This  pamphlet  contains  a  13-page  brief  filed  on 
Driscoll  of  the  law  firm  of  Dyer  &  Seely,  probably  in 
Errors  in  the  Brief  filed  on  behalf  of  Swan''  and  quotes 

3KE K!?*  °f  EdiSO-  ThecaseconcernsTp^ 

behalf  of  Edison  by  D.  H. 
1883.  It  is  entitled  "Some 
from  that  brief  and  from 
ait  interference  relating  to 

£  £  A  c3  2  C  ? 

C.  G.  Burgoyne'.  Printing  Buslnat,  146-150  Centre  St.,  N.  Y. 

Itnitfii  States  intent 

Thomas  A.  Edison 

Hikam  S.  Maxim 

Joseph  W.  Swan. 

Electric  Lamps. 
No.  8195, 

Some  Errors  in  the  Brief  filed  on  behalf 
of  Satan. 

In  accordance  with  permission  granted  by  tbe 
Honorable  Examiner  of  Interferences  at  tbe  oral  argu¬ 
ment  of  this  case,  errors  occurring  in  Swan’s  brief, 
of  statement  and  citation,  are  noted  below. 

No  attempt  bas  been  made  to  answer  tbe  arguments 
of  tbe  brief,  except  where  they  have  no  foundation  in 
tbe  record  or  are  based  on  a  misreading  of  tbe  testi¬ 
mony,  it  being  understood  that  the  permission  accorded 
extended  only  to  pointing  out  errors. 

The  statement  made  (p.  4)  that  Edison  filed  bis 
amended  statement  so  that  it  would  “  conform  to  and 
support  bis  testimony,”  is  erroneous.  At  tbe  com¬ 
mencement  of  tbe  taking  of  Edison’s  testimony  notice 

was  given  that  the  amended  statement  would  be  filed 
(E.  B.,  fol.  27). 

On  page  S,  next  to  last  paragraph,  it  is  stated  that 
Edison  did  not  remember  what  material  was  used  in 
1877,  citing  foL  913,  E.  B.,  in  support  of  the  statement. 
An  examination  of  the  testimony  at  that  folio  will  show 
that  there  is  no  ground  for  the  statement.  Edison  said’ 
the  material  did  not  impress  him  one  way  or  the  other. 
He  did  not  say  he  didn’t  remember  what  the  materials 
were.  On  the  contrary,  at  folio  903,  E.  E„  he  says  of 
the  1877  carbons  that  they  were  paper  carbons,  some 
of  them  in  the  loop  form,  and  that  there  might’  have 
been  six  or  eight  of  them. 

Beginning  at  page  9,  Swan’s  Brief  claims 'that  a 
“  glaring  contradiction  ”  exists  between  Edison’s  and 
Batchelor’s  testimony;  that  Edison  “flatly  contradicts 
himself,”  and  that  his  memory  is  unreh'able. 

No  better  foundation  for  these  assertions  exist  than 
a  misreading  of  the  testimony  in  the  case. 

The  “glaring  contradiction,”  it  is  asserted,  arises 
from  Edison’s  alleged  testimony  that  the  1877  fila- 
“ents ,  were  carbonized  in  tubes-Batclielor,  it  being 

Admitting,  however,  for  the  sake  of  the.  argument 
that  Edison  did  testify  as  alleged,  even  then  Swan’i 
Yl  T  .Cr?r  When  Hle  comParison  of  Edison’s 
and  Batchelors  testimony  is  made  which  results  tc 
their  minds  m  this  glaring  contradiction 

ooa  i  “  necord  l.WWuiuis  .Um 

920,  shows  clearly  tl  at  Ed  on  1  e„  he  said  the  fila 

“  J m  lika  a  tube-  was  ^tifying  regard 

When  Batchelor  testifies  that  filaments  were  cut  from 
already  carbonized  sheets,  he  has  reference  to  the  fila¬ 
ments  of  1877  (Swan’s  Exhibit  Batchelor  Deposition, 
fols.  676-685  inc.). 

Nothing  can  be  clearer  from  the  testimony  of  Messrs. 

Edison  and  Batchelor  than  that  in  1877  flat  strips  of 
carbonized  paper  were  used  as  filaments. 

In  1878  both  of  these  witnesses  are  in  harmony  re¬ 
garding  the  use  of  flat  strips  bent  into  tubular  form. 

Edison,  fol.  920  E.  B. 

Batchelor,  fol.  599,  Swan’s  Exhibit  Batche¬ 
lor  Deposit. 

Batchelor  says  of  the  1878  carbons:  “The  best 
method  I  found  of  making  these  corbons  was  to  coat 
tissue  paper  or  very  thin  paper  with  a  mixture  of  tar 
and  lamp  black,  and  then  roll  them  up  on  a  fiat  plate 
very  tightly."  It  thus  appeal’s  clearly  that  the  “  glar¬ 
ing  contraction  ”  alleged,  has  no  existence. 

Swan’s  counsel,  pursuing  his  erroneous  assumption, 
asks  “  how  could  a  straight  strip  be  first  bent  and  then 
carbonized  in  a  tube  ?  ”  and  asserts,  “  There  is  no  proof 
that  this  can  be  done.” 

As  Edison  did  not  testify  that  a  straight  strip  was 
bent  and  carbonized  in  a  tube  the  inquiry  quoted  be¬ 
comes  immaterial,  and  whether  there  is  or  is  not  proof 

’CSPursuing  further  the  original  erroneous^sump£ionf^^'^r'/‘,”_‘f'‘7- 
that  Edison  testified  that  the  1877  carbons  were  bent 
and  carbonized  in  a  tube,  Swan’s  counsel  points  out 
the  “  flat  contradiction.” 

It  appearing  that  Swan’s  counsel  was  mistaken  as  to 
Edison’s  testimony  regarding  the  1877  filaments  the 
alleged  flat  contradiction  itself  falls  flat. 

We  fail  to  perceive  the  contradiction  alleged  on 
page  11,  second  paragraph  to  exist  between  Edison  and 
Batchelor’s  testimony.  It  may  well  be  that  Batchelor 
whose  time  in  1877  “was  not  whoUy  devoted  to  experi¬ 
menting  on  electric  lighting  ’’  (fol.  680,  Swan’s  Exhibit 

Batchelor  Deposition)  forgot  an  experiment  which 
Edison  remembered.  Bnt  such  failure  of  memory  does 
not  constitute  a  contradiction. 

At  page  14,  second  paragraph,  it  is  stated  that 
“  Herrick  broke  many  of  them  (lamps)  to  economize 
platinum  clamps ;  he  found  all  were  carbons  cut  in  the 
horse-shoe  form  ”  citing  fols.  1010  to  1013  S.  B.  An 
examination  of  the  testimony  at  the  folios  cited  will 
show  that  this  statement  is  at  variance  with  the  testi¬ 
mony  given.  Herrick  testifies  that  there  were  other 
construction  of  lamps  in  the  case  at  the  time  referred  to. 

On  pages  21, 22  and  23,  an  argument  is  made  to  show 
that  the  natural  way  for  Edison  to  prepare  carbon 
filaments  from  straight  strips  of  paper,  would  be  to  fol¬ 
low  the  method  employed  when  carbonizing  thread,  it 
being  asserted  that  Edison  did  not  follow  this  natural 
method,  bnt  adopted  “  such  a  difficult  way  of  carbon¬ 
izing  that  within  a  day  or  two,”  it  was  discarded  by 
reason  of  its  difficulty. 

It  is  admitted  for  Edison,  that  the  most  uatural  way 
to  carbonize  strips  of  paper  would  be  to  carbonize  them 
as  thread  had  been  carbonized.  It  is  asserted  on  be¬ 
half  of  Edison,  that  this  was  the  way  the  strips  of  paper 
were  carbonized.  Swan’s  assertion  that  this  was  not 
done  is  based  on  a  misreading  of  the  record,  combined 
with  an  assumption  of  probabilities  for  which  there  is 
no  warrant  in  the  record. 

The  brief  states:  “It  is  admitted  by  Edison’s  wit¬ 
nesses  that  one  way  to  carbonize  thread  was  to  do  it 
in  a  mold.” 

Citing : 

Batchelor  E.  B.,  fob  580. 

Upton  E.  B.,  fol.  279-9. 

Sawyer-Man  Eecord,  Herald,  4th  Col. 

Examing  these  citations  it  will  - be  found  that 
Batchelor  says  nothing  about  thread  at  the  folio  cited. 
He  does  state  that  paper  carbons,  of  parchment  paper 
vulcanized  fiber,  and  many  other  materials  were  made 

by  cutting  straight,  bending  into  hoop  form  and  “  fixed 
in  that  position,  sometimes  by  tying  them  to  a  piece  of 
carbon  having  that  shape.  At  other  times  by  placing 
them  when  bent,  into  grooves  cut  into  plates  of  carbon 
and  nickle,  and  held  in  that  position  during  carboniza¬ 
tion.”  Being  the  way  thread  was  carbonized  according 
to  the  testimony  and  the  assertion  of  Swan’s  counsel. 

Swan’s  counsel  evidently  confuses  the  forms  or 
blocks  to  which  the  thread  and  straight  cut  filaments  of 
paper  were  tied,  with  the  molds  or  boxes,  in  which  the 
forms  were  placed  during  carbomzation. 

Exhibits  J  and  K  (the  small  blocks  of  carbon),  show 
the  forms  to  which  the  paper  ships  were  tied  during 
carbonization  (force  E.  B.,  fob  434,  el  seij). 

Van  Cleve  (fob  1349,  E.  B).  makes  it  clear  that  these 
forms  of  carbon  were  themselves  placed  in  molds  and 
then  carbonized.  He  says  :  “  The  cardboard  was  cut 
straight,  the  two  ends  of  cardboard  was  fastened  on  a 
small  block  of  gas  retort  carbon  by  tying  with  a  thread 
across  the  cardboard,  holding  it  in  place  at  the  turned 
end  *  *  *  then  they  were  placed  in  forms  or 
boxes  covered  with  pulverized  charcoal  or  fine  carbon, 
after  which  the  top  was  placed  on  the  box,  screwed 
down  with  bolts,  placed  in  what  was  called  a  prelim¬ 
inary  furnace,  brought  up  with  a  grudual  heat  to  a  dull 
red  to  expel  all  gases,  after  which  it  was  placed  in  a  re¬ 
tort  furnace  and  heated  to  a  white  heat,  when  the  car¬ 
bon  was  considered  complete.” 

S.  D.  Mott  (fob  728  S.  B.),  testifies  to  the  same  effect. 

“  210  x-Q.  Did  they  '  not  at  this  time  also  tie  the 
thread  to  blocks  of  carbon  after  bending  it  into  loop  or 
circular  form  and  carbonize  it  in  that  position  V 

A.  To  prevent  the  thread  from  wrinkling  up  and  be¬ 
coming  ill-shaped  the  loop  was  fastened  in  the  mold 
to  keep  it  in  place.” 

Upton  does  testify,  however  (fob  279,  E.  E.),  that  the 
form  of  gas  retort  carbon  he  recollects  had  a  narrow 
groove  cut  in  it  and  "  In  this  groove  whatever  straight 
filament  that  was  wished  to  be  carbonized  could  be 
placed  and  carbonized,”  and  (fob  94  E.  E.),  these  forms 
were  “  packed  in  charcoal  in  an  iron  case.” 

The  “Herald  article  cited  at  the  fourth  column 
says  nothing  about  thread.  It  refers  to  the  flat  horse¬ 
shoe  carbon,  which  having  been  cut  to  form,  needed  not 
the  aid  of  gas  retort  carbon  forms,  but  were  placed 
themselves  directly  in  the  molds  or  flasks. 

While  the  statement  that  Edison’s  witnesses  admit 
that  one  way  to  carbonize  thread  was  to  do  it  in  a  mold 
is,  strictly  speaking,  true,  it  should  be  borne  in  miud 
that  within  the  mold  were  the  forms  like  J  and  K. 

Taking  for  granted  that  thread  was  carbonized  in 

molds— but  losing  sight  of  the  exact  method  followed _ 

Swan  s  brief  refers  to  the  mold  used  for  carbonizing 
paper  in  1876,  and  then  asserts  “This  mold  was  prol> 
ably  the  one  used  for  carbonizing  thread  aud  after¬ 
wards  paper.” 

S.  D.  Mott,  S.  B„  fols.  735,  970. 
Flammer,  S.  B.,  224G. 

Force,  E.  B.,  443. 

An  examination  of  the  testimony  cited  fails  to  show 
a  scintilla  of  evidence  to  support  the  assertion  that  the 
1876  mold  was  the  one  used  in  1879,  or  even  that  it  was 
probably  used. 

On  the  contrary,  Swan’s  witness,  S.  D.  Mott,  at  fol. 
732,  says  that  new  molds  were  made  for  carbonizing 
the  horseshoe  paper  lamp,  and  admits  (same  fol.)  that 
molds  were  “  changed  to  suit  the  requirements  of  the 
materials  to  be  used  as  carbons  for  lamps.” 

Proceeding  on  the  false  assumption  that  thread  was 
carbonized  in  molds,  without  forms,  Swan’s  brief  asserts 
(p.  22),  "It  would  apparently  be  impossible  to  car¬ 
bonize  a  straight  piece  of  paper  in  such  a  mold;  the 

paper  filament  would  have  to  stand  on  edge.”  This  as¬ 
sertion  is  shown  to  be  untrue  by  considering  that  Edi¬ 
son  provided  forms,  to  be  placed  within  the  molds  for 
retaining  the  paper  filament  in  the  desired  shape,  aud 
supporting  it  during  carbonization  and,  as  Mott  says 

changed  the  molds  to  suit  the  materials 

It  is  asserted  (p.  23),  “  Besides  this,  if  the  paper  car¬ 

bons  were  made  from  straight  strips  of  paper,  then  bent 
tissue  paper  could  not  be  placed  over  it;  in  fact,  only 
one  strip  could  be  carbonized  at  a  time.” 


Herrick,  S.  B.,  1154. 

Herrick  does  not  testify  that  “  only  one  strip  could  be 
carbonized  at  a  time,”  nor  does  he  give  any  ground  for 
such  an  assertion.  On  the  contrary,  his  testimony  is 
confirmatory  of  Edison’s  assertion  that  a  form  was  used 
in  carbonizing  paper  cut  from  a  straight  strip.  Herrick 
states  :  “  A  piece  of  paper  cut  straight  and  bent  into 
the  form  of  a  loop  would  requiro  a  mold  and  ligature 
to  keep  it  in  shape.”  *  *  * 

’  There  is  no  reason  why  several  filaments  of  paper  cut 
from  a  straight  strip  bent  and  tied  to  a  form  could  not 
be  placed  in  the  same  mold  or  box,  and,  if  desirable 
tissue  paper  could  be  placed  between  them. 

Truly,  as  Swan’s  brief  says,  “  It  would  surprise  any 
one  who  knew  how  they  (Edison’s  force)  had  been  car¬ 
bonizing  thread,  to  learn  that  when  they  first  tried  paper 
they  did  not  carbonize  it  in  the  forms  they  were  using 
for  thread  and  in  the  same  easy  way  they  carbonized 

At  pages  24  aud  25  it  is  asserted  that  Edison’s  great 
discovery  was  the  horseshoe  paper  carbon.  The  word 
horseshoe  is  enclosed  in  quotation  marks,  and  thereby 
we  infer  that  the  flat  cut  paper  horseshoe  is  referred  to. 
If  so,  the  reference  is  clearly  an  erroneous  one.  Mr. 
Edison  testifies  (fol.  791  E.  E.) : 

"  X-Q-  M2.  Xou  regarded  the  paper  carbon  as  an 
important  thing  at  the  time  you  were  experimentin" 
with  it  in  1878,  1879  and  1880,  did  you  not  ? 

“A.  I  regarded  the  use  of  the  filament  of  carbon  in 
1878  and  1880  us  a  very  important  invention,  but  re¬ 
garded  the  particular  material  of  smaller  importance 
to  the  broad  patent  for  a  filament  of  carbon  for  an  in- 
candescent  conductor.” 

Edison,  it  is  admitted  in  Swan’s  brief,  had  the  loop 
or  horseshoe  form  of  thread  carbon  before  he  had 

the  paper  horseshoe;  therefore,  the  material  of  the 
filament  being  deemed  of  small  importance,  if  the  horse¬ 
shoe  form  of  the  carbon  was  entitled  to  be  called  a 
great  discovery,  properly  the  thread  carbon  should  re¬ 
ceive  it.  It  certainly  cannot  with  truth  be  claimed  that 
the  flat  cut  paper  horseshoe  is  entitled  to  the  claim  in 
the  sense  Swan’s  brief  used  the  term  of  Edison's  “  great 
discovery  "  (see  pages  2  to  6  Edison’s  brief),  ns  it  was 
simply  a  modification  of  the  thread  loop. 

S.  D.  Mott  (fol.  747  S.  E.)  testifies: 

“  The  horseshoe  form  of  cutting  was  a  modification. 
I  should  simply  call  it  a  modification  of  the  thread 

At  several  places  throughout  Swan’s  brief  (notably 
pages  28, 30  and  51)  the  testimony  of  Messrs.  Batchelor 
and  Edison  in  the  Sawyer-Man  interference  is  referred 
to  to  support  the  statement  that  in  that  interference  it 
was  testified  that  only  one  lamp  was  made  containing  a 
filament  or  carbon  made  by  cutting  a  straight  strip  of 
paper  bending  it  into  loop  form  and  carbonizing  while 
in  that  form.  And  that  testimony  is  contrasted  with 
the  same  witnesses’  testimony  in  the  case  at  bar  with 
the  object  of  showing  a  contradiction. 

It  is  an  error  to  state  that  the  testimony  in  the 
Sawyer-Man  interference  relates  to  only  one  lamp. 

An  examination  of  the  testimony  at  the  folios  cited 
in  Swan’s  brief  (p.  28)  will  show  this  clearly. 

It  will  be  found  that  what  is  stated  is  that  the  jiret 
lamp— not  only  one  lamp— was  made  at  a  certain  time 
and  that  “within  a  day  or  two ”  or  “  within  a  day  or 
so  ”  lamps  were  made  having  the  flat  cut  horseshoe 

"What  is  meant  by  “  within  a  day  or  so  ”  appears  in 
Batchelor’s  testimony.  He  says  (fol.  624,  Swan’s  Ex¬ 
hibit  Batchelor  Deposition)  that  the  first  lamp  was 
made  about  October  22d,  187!) ;  that  “  Within  a  day  or 
so”  of  this .  he  cut  a  flat  loop  in  the  horseshoe  form 
and  “  immediately  after  this  made  a  steel  mold  in  which 
these  loops  could  be  out  quickly  ”  (fol.  622).  This 
steel  mold  was  made  about  the  latter  end  of  November, 

1879  (Upton,  fol.  103,  E.  E),  the  date  being  fixed  by 
reference  to  Mr.  Batchelor’s  note-book,  where  under 
date  of  November  28,  1879,  with  three  signatures  on 
the  page,  a  drawing  of  this  clamp  or  form  is  found 
(Upton,  fol.  180,  E.  E.).  “  Within  a  day  or  so  ”  and 

immediately  after  this,”  therefore,  covers  a  space  of 
about  a  month,  and  it  cannot  with  truth  be  said  that 
only  one  lamp  was  made  this  time.  On  the  contrary 
Upton  says  (fol.  98,  E.  E.) :  “  I  remember  distinctly 
that  for  some  time,  two  weeks,  I  think,  we  were  ex¬ 
perimenting  with  paper  cut  in  this  form  [first  issue]  and 
that  we  were  all  working  very  hard  in  the  line  of  ex¬ 
perimenting  of  which  this  forms  part."  . 

Upton  further  says  (fol.  237,  E.  E.)  that :  “  By  re¬ 
ferring  to  records  I  find  that  lamp  43  is  mentioned  as 
‘  made  of  card  cut  from  new  model  and  set  in  new 
clamp,  steel  some  as  above  ’ ;  I  find  this  over  date  of 
November  17,  1879,  and  in  the  handwriting  of  Mr. 
Batchelor  and  signed  by  him.” 

“  X‘Q-  204.  Do  you  know  what  is  meant  by  ‘  cut  from 
new  model  ’  ? 

“  A.  To  the  best  of  my  recollection  it  means  cut  in 
the  same  manner  as  shown  on  the  bottom  of  Exhibit 

The  bottom  figure  of  Exhibit  C  is  under  date  of 
Nov.  11,  1879,  and  this  being  the  new  model,  what  was 
done  between  Oct.  22,  the  date  fixed  by  Batchelor  as 
the  date  of  the  production  of  the  carbon  of  the  first 
issue,  and  Nov.  11,  must  have  been  different  from  the 
new  model.  It  is  testified  that  the  carbons  then  pro¬ 
duced  were  identical  with  the  carbon  of  the  first  issue. 

In  this  connection  attention  is  called  to  the  erroneous 
statement  made  in  the  note  printed  in  small  type 
page  51). 

As  a  matter  of  fact  the  testimony  of  Edison  and 
Batchelor  was  given  before  the  declaration  of  interfer¬ 
ence  in  the  case  at  bar.  This  declaration  is  dated  Oc¬ 
tober  1st,  1881 — Edison’s  deposition  was  commenced 
June  11th,  1881,  and  Batchelor’s  July  7,  1881,  nearly 


three  months  before  the  declaration  of  interference 
instead  of  six  weeks  after  as  alleged. 

Beginning  at  page  39  and  running  to  and  including 
page  42  an  argument  based  upon  probabilities,  erroneous 
in  themselves,  is  made  use  of  to  show  that  the  carbons 
represented  on  Exhibits  A,  B  and  0  were  unsuc- 

It  is  stated,  page  42,  “These  three  Exhibits  A,  B  and 
0,  show  that  whatever  was  done  in  the  carbonization  of 
loops  was  done  by  electricity  in  vacuo.” 

No  citation  of  the  record  is  made  in  support  of  this 
assertion,  and  elsewhere  in  the  brief  carbonization  in 
vacuo  is  spoken  of  only  as  probably  having  taken 
pkcewitk  reference  to  the  carbons  of  Exhibits  A,  B 

As  a  matter  of  fact  carbonization  in  vactiuo  was  not 
attempted  until  many  months  after  the  carbons  of  Ex¬ 
hibits  A,  B  and  0  had  been  made. 

Charles  P .  Mott  testifies  (fol.  383,  S.  B.) : 

lSSO08^  x"rQ'  T?°t  remember  in  tho  month  of  March, 
1880,  of  Mr.  Batchelor  making  experiments  in  carboni¬ 
zing  m  vacuuo  ? 

“A.  An  apparatus  for  that  purpose  was  made  in  the 

latter  part  of  March,  1880,  and  experiments  madewdh 
the  apparatus  in  the  early  part  of  April.” 

vaf^'f  T’  the  apparatus  for  carbonizing  in 

vacuuo,  bears  date  March  29,  I860. 

It  is,  therefore,  absurd  to  assume,  as  even  probably 
that  carbons  were  carbonized  in  vacuuo  in  November 
1879,  when  the  first  record  of  a  carbonizing  apparatus 
operating  m  vacuuo  occurs  in  March  of  the  next  year 
and  Swan’s  witness'  recollection  accords  with  the  rec-’ 
^.  .  L,  raeSP?C1.a.1Iyis  the  absurdity  of  such  an  as- 
p  '0D  WpTnb'lbl'-  when  it  is  considered  that  Edison 
rant r  .-ln  carbon!zi“6  in  vacuuo,  and  to  war- 

rant  the  assumption  at  all  one  would  have  to  suppose 

Attempt  is  made  to  show  that  the  carbons  illustrated 

in  Exhibits  A,  B  and  C  were  unsuccessful  for  other  rea¬ 
sons  besides  the  erronous  one  that  they  were  carbon¬ 
ized  m  vacuuo. 

Of  No.  37  it  is  stated,  page  40,  that  it  was  unsuccess¬ 
ful  and  was  never  placed  in  a  lamp  at  all. 

And  of  No.  38  it  is  stated  that  also  seems  to  have 
been  unsuccessful,  and  that  it  was  evidently  not  sealed 
off  into  a  lamp. 

These  statements  are  erroneous. 

Of  No.  37,  Upton  says  (fol.  324,  E.  B.)  that  it  “was 
an  hour  incandescent  at  one  time,”  nud  of  No  38  he 
says  (fol.  325,  E.  E.),  “  was  measured  for  resistance  ” 

One  of  these  carbons  (No.  37)  is  recorded  as  bavin- 
“  burnt  on  the  pump  from  an  arc,”  and  the  other  as 
having  “  busted  on  pump.”  These  statements  we  pre¬ 
sume  Swan’s  brief  takes  for  the  foundation  for  the  as¬ 
sertion  that  they  were  never  placed  in  a  lamp  at  all. 

But  this  is  an  error,  as  Upton  testifies  (fol.  3S2E.  B.), 
of  No.  38,  which  is  the  one  recorded  as  having  “  busted 
on  pump  : 

“Was  this  carbon  tested  in  the  receiver  of  an  air 
pump,  or  was  it  sealed  in  a  lamp  globe  ? 

”  It  was  sealed  in  a  lamp  globe.” 

No.  39  Swan’s  brief  attempts  to  overthrow  by  entirely 
disregarding  the  testimony.  It  is  stated  in  the  record 
of  this  carbon  that  there  was  a  “small  arc  at  point  of 
contact,”  and  below  this  statement,  after  times  of  burn¬ 
ing  have  been  given,  it  is  stated  “  no  arc.”  Upon  this 
Swans  brief  asserts  that  the  lamp  must  have  been  de¬ 
stroyed  at  once,  citing  Edison,  E.  B.  1529-30,  alle-iug 
that  when  an  arc  is  formed  the  lamp  at  once  goes  to 

Small  arcs  only  “tend  to  destroy  the  lamp”  (fol.  S9 
Swan’s  Exhibit  Edison’s  deposition)  *  *  *  “a  bad 
contact  between  the  carbons  and  the  clamp  would 
necessarily  follow,  accompanied  by  small  arcs,  which 
would  gradually  increase  and  ultimately  destroy  the 
contact  "  (same  Exhibit,  fol.  141). 

Exhibit  M  contains  the  record  of  the  test  of  lamp  No. 
39.  For  the  first  time  this  exhibit  is  alleged,  by 
Swan’s  brief,  to  contain  the  record  of  two  lamps.  No. 


39  at  the  top,  which  it  is  alleged  was  destroyed  at  once, 
and  another  lamp  at  the  bottom  of  the  exhibit,  which 
Swan’s  brief  admits  « is  the  one  over  which  occurred 
the  great  excitement.”  Regarding  this  lamp  said  to  be 
recorded  at  the  bottom  of  Exhibit  IT,  Swan’s  brief 
states  that  it  “  is  proved  beyond  all  question  to  have 
been  the  one  cut  out  in  horseshoe  shape.”  No  cita¬ 
tions  are  given  to  testimony  in  the  record  to  support 
this  assertion.  Nor  can  any  be  given.  The  assertion 
is  absolutely  erroneous. 

Exhibit  M  contains  the  record  of  a  single  lamp,  No. 
39.  No  one  ever  questioned  this  until  Swan’s  brief 
appeared.  The  evidence  is  so  cienr  on  this  point  that 
further  discussion  wonld  be  useless.  (See  Upton,  fol. 
324  el  seq.,  fol.  360  el  seq.,  and  fol.  394  cl  seq.,  E.  R.) 

Of  lamp  No.  40,  which  is  recorded  as  having  been 
"  made  for  test,”  it  is  asserted  (p.  41)  that  it  is  prob¬ 
able  that  “  test  ”  referred  to  testing  the  connections. 
No  citations  from  the  testimony  are  given  to  support 
this  assertion. 

What  a  test  lamp  is  appears  from  the  testimony  of 
S.  D.  Mott  (fol.  ). 

It  is  asserted  (p.  43)  that  “Edison  was  not  himself 
the  inventor  of  the  first  issue  of  this  interference.” 
The  main  ground  for  this  assertion '  seems  to  be  that 
Batchelor  made  the  experiments  and  kept  the  records, 
and  page  46,  that  “  there  is  no  proof  that  he,  Batchelor, 
received  any  assistance  in  these  experiments,  either  by 
way  of  suggestion,  order  or  manual  aid  or  skill.”  This 
statement  is  erroneous. 

Batchelor  testifies  (fol.  1467,  E.  R.) :  “I  was  in  the 
best  position  to  know  aU  that  was  done  (at  Menlo 
Park),  as  I  was  in  continual  consultation  with  Edison 
and  daily  gelling  his  ideas  and  directing  the  experi- 

See  also  fol.  619  el  seq.,  fol.  647-663  Swan’s  Exhibit 
Batchelor’s  Deposition,  and  fol.  566,  same  Exhibit 
where  Batchelor  says : 

“I  have  been  assistant  to  Mr.  Edison  for  nearly 


eleven  years.  My  occupation  has  been  entirely  during 
the  last  eight  or  nine  year's  the  receiving  of  ideas  and 
sketches  and  afterwards  carrying  them  out;  making  the 
necessary  instruments  myself  or  with  any  help  that  I 
required.  I  have  had  general  charge  of  all  of  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son’s  experiments  during  that  time  under  himself.” 

Monce  vs.  Ada7>is,  cited  in  Swan’s  brief,  has  been 
practically  overruled  by  the  case  of  Allen  vs.  Moody  vs. 
Gilman,  C.  D.,  1872,  page  204. 

Respectfully  submitted, 

D.  H.  Driscoll, 
Dyer  &  Seely, 

For  Edison. 


Edison  v.  Sprague  (1885) 

.  This  38-page  pamphlet  contains  testimony  given  by  Edison  in  November  18X5 

yTJK°hn/'  0tt  1888  in  a  patent  interim  “ceTnvolvingTdSn  fnd 

SJ5TS£  inWS°epCtaeXS 


El  131  BON  J 






Attorney  for  Edison. 


Of  Counsel. 

Notice  of  taking  testimony ....  .  j 

Preliminary  statement  of  Edison .  2 

Thomas  A.  Edison,  deposition  of .  3_9 

Notary’s  Certificate,  Morris  E.  Sterne .  10 

John  F.  Ott,  deposition  of .  U 

Notary  s  Certificate,  AV m.  J.  Kearns .  13 

Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  1  (page  of  note-book) .  13n 

Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  2  (original  caveat) . 14-20 

Edison’s  Exhibit  Meter  Caveat  of  Oct.  4, 1881..  .21-29 

To  Messrs.  Betts,  Atteredby  &  Betts  : 

Take  notice  that  on  Friday,  November  13th,  1885, 
at  10  o’clock  A.  M.  at  No.  66  Fifth  avenue,  New  York 
City,  I  shall  proceed  to  take  the  testimony  of  Thomas 
A.  Edison,  Charles  Batchelor,  Francis  R.  Upton,  John 
Kruesi,  Martin  Force,  John  Ott  and  others,  as  witnesses 
in  behalf  of  Edison,  and  shall  continue  the  examina¬ 
tion  from  day  to  day  until  completed. 

You  are  invited  to  be  present  and  cross-examine. 

Rich’d  N.  Dyer, 

Atfy.  for  Edison. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 



Preliminary  Statement 

County  of  New  Fork,  J  ss- 

S  of  Th— 

says,  th^telTpMty'to  the7  1"'°™'  dep°Ses  an‘ 

experiments  and  disclosed  (taWtfo??  skf  cIle3  “d 
he  tned  a  number  of  fundamental  *°  0tllers  •'  ‘hat 
ferent  times  subsequent  to  ™if  -e*Perimen‘s  at  dif- 
pnnciples  of  said  invention .  *1!  da  e'  Evolving  the 
bodied  in  sketches  made  h,  kafc  saitl  invention  is  em- 

0 - -  -  Thomas  A.  Edison. 


of  April,  1883.  7f 


Notary  Public, 

New  Fork  County. 


Application  filed  Sept.  13, 1882,  / 



Application  filed  March  7, 1882.  I  10 

Interference  Electrical  Meters. 

Testimony  taken  in  behalf  of  Thomas  A.  Edison  pur¬ 
suant  to  notice  hereto  annexed  at  No.  60  Fifth  avenue. 
New  York  City,  the  17th  day  of  November,  1885. 

Present  :  ^ 

J.  E.  Hindon  Hyde,  counsel  for  Sprague. 

John  C.  Tomlinson  and  Bichard  N.  Dyer,  counsel 
for  Edison. 

Thomas  A.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 
says,  in  answer  to  questions  proposed  by  John  C. 
Tomlinson,  counsel  for  Edison,  as  follows  : 

1  Q.  What  is  your  name,  age,  residence  and  occupa¬ 
tion  ?  12 

A.  Thomas  A.  Edison ;  residence,  New  York ;  age, 

38 occupation,  inventor. 

2  Q.  The  issues  in  this  interference  have  been  de¬ 
fined  by  the  Patent  Office  as  follows  : 

First.  The  combination  with  the  electrodes  of  an 
electrolytic  cell,  of  a  rotating  body  forming  part  of  the 
circuit  between  them,  and  caused  to  rotate  by  displace¬ 
ment  of  its  centre  of  gravity  due  to  the  deposition  and 
removal  of  metal. 

Second.  In  an  electrolytic  measuring  apparatus,  the 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

13  combination  witb  m,  , 

trade  capable  of  rotation  in  f  Pl<lteS  °f  “D  induced  elec- 
°  lts  oontre  of  parity  due to  eDCBof  displacement 
0f  fetal  and  a  registering  °  fP°S,tira  “d  removal 

^  XftioL^conlail6'!!  C0“tl'“di°t  or  vary 

bJ  ^^SJSraw£58^  *  ^e“ 

A.  In  Janumyor^b 

and  call  y0ltr 

“Pen  that  page  and  wbat  is  it*?^’  'Vll°  “ado  tI,e  ske‘cb 


^  <3-  IVLen  wna  this  statcli  aade  ? 

Same  objection  as  tn  i- 

"  as  to  question  2. 

A.  April  3d,  1881. 

16  UTirthat^mtme  W  4,16  desoriPtion.  con- 


!  Q-  Wiat  «  this  book  No  2f)fi  9 

a  Mq 

sasft—  « » 

^iandwrit;  ^  made  which  are 

fa°n  "Titten  ?  ien.  and  by  who*  ««  a,;, 

tJle  descrip. 

*  j 

Objected  to  as  f,  1 

f1^.  of  tte  erCerP:riUit0fro^  On  1 


’  t!len  passes  i 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

&7jLth?  l6avinR  “  °U  the  other  ^  across  25 

the  sulphate  of  copper  to  the  electrode.  In  leaving  it 
takes  copper  from  the  cylinder;  thus  one  side  of  the 
cyhnder  becomes  heavy  while  the  other  side  becomes 
hghtei,  thus  throwing  the  cylinder  continuously  out  of 
balance  and  producing  rotation  of  the  cylinder,  a  count¬ 
ing  apparatus  being  connected  to  the  same  records  the 
number  of  revolutions. 

18  Q.  Do  you  consider  that  the  meter  shown  and  de¬ 
scribed  in  this  paper  embodies  the  issues  in  this  inter- 

TiL  26 

Notice  is  here  given  to  counsel  for  Sprague 
hat  the  caveat  filed  by  Mr.  Edison  October  4th. 

1881,  and  referred  to  in  the  preliminary  state¬ 
ment,  is  a  copy  of  this  paper,  Edison’s  Exhibit 
No.  2,  and  that  the  original  caveat  will  be  made 
a  part  of  the  record  of  this  interference,  and  will 
be  referred  to  at  the  argument  with  fuU  privilege 
on  the  part  of  counsel  for  Sprague  to  examine  27 
and  use  such  caveat. 

Counsel  for  Sprague  replies  that  the  state¬ 
ment  thus  made  is  in  no  way  proof  of  the  mat¬ 
ters  contained  therein  and  will  object  to  any  use 
whatever  of  said  alleged  caveat  unless  the  same 
or  a  duly  authenticated  copy  thereof  is  offered 
in  evidence  and  made  a  part  of  the  record  and 
supphed  for  the  purposes  of  cross-examination 
on  the  testimony  of  this  witness. 

Counsel  for  Edison  state  that  they  will  pro-  28 
enre  certified  copy  of  the  caveat  and  ofter  it  in 

19  Q.  What  is  the  apparatus  I  now  hand  you  ? 

A.  It  is  the  same  kind  of  an  apparatus  as  shown  in 
hgure  3  of  my  caveat,  which  I  have  just  described  ex¬ 
cept  that  amalgamated  zinc  electrodes  and  cylinder  are 

Apparatus  referred  to  is  offered  in  evidence 
and  marked  Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  3. 

20  Q.  Beferrinn-  to  tlm 

M  embodying  jg  “Pporatns,  described  by  T0lI 

s--— riff 

A.  X  did.  ^ 

3  Foments  upcT^*^  «**  the  e 

Tour  laboratory  assistants^  generally  known 

0bieeted  to  as  leading. 

3  the  meter 

A.  Tes. 

M  fee,?:;1,?" o,t 

32  whether  zinc  n,-  „  “®CQ%  with  any  of  n 

SS3L"*"  JJS1  “r- 


I  «We-  g  “e  metere.  the  record  is' 

Thomas  A.  Edison.  9 

A.  The  first  apparatus  embodying  the  issues  in  this 
interference  was  placed  in  circuit  in  my  laboratory  some 
time  in  January  or  February,  1879. 

26  Q.  Under  whose  direction  and  in  accordance 
with  whose  instructions  was  the  Meter  Exhibit  No.  3 

A.  By  my  direction  and  instruction. 

Adjourned  to  November  27th,  10  A.  M. 

Met  pursuant  to  adjournment. 
Same  counsel  as  before. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 
Adjourned  to  December  2d,  11  A.  M. 

Deoembeb  2d,  1886. 

Met  pursuant  to  adjournment. 

Present — Same  parties  as  before. 

Adjourned  to  meet  subject  to  the  agreement  of  coun¬ 

37  °taiy  s  CertiScate. 



j_ ,.  spmagve  i  '-asaa, 

38  Application  fi]ed  Ay  * 

J *SW?Si*  jJ 


39  Tx^’  before  W6eat°vUrSUUnce  to  the  not-016  above- 

of  New  Tort  “  ’ at  No.  65  Fifth  „  “  uotlce  hereto 
Tliat  said  5°“  tbe  Wtt  dav'fW  “e-  “  «••  <% 

^enaeCtofJr  **  * £  S™0,^  W 


!0  0011  eluded  on  the  rT  °f  Novetaber  igo-11  °oJ°oi  J 

necte^Vhloodol2mB  da*  thall!’  and  —  1 

“interested  directly  S  *“«  either  J  ^“0‘  co»-  i 
troversy.  “  ^directly  in  th  “ ®a,(1  Parties 

^  testimony  wr„  ,  attermcon-  ' 

[BEAL.]  U0Bm  R  SmjvE 

Notary  Public,  | 

No.  278.  K  Z  Co-  J 

John  F.  Ott. 

Obakoe,  N.  J.,  Aug.  9th,  1888.  41 

Met  pursuant  to  agreement. 

Present— L.  E.  Curtis,  Esq.,  counsel  for  Spra^uo  • 

E.  N.  Dyer,  Esq.,  counsel  for  Edison.  °  ’ 

John  F.  Oit,  a  witness  produced  on  behalf  of  Edi¬ 
son,  being  duly  sworn,  deposeth  and  says  in  answer  to 
questions  proposed  by  counsel  for  Edison  : 

tion*?  Wlat  “  y0Ur  name’  ase'  residence  and  occupa-  ^ 

A.  John  F.  Ott;  age,  38;  residence,  No.  276  Hi~li 
street,  Orange ;  occupation,  superintendent  of  the  lab¬ 
oratory  of  T.  A.  Edison. 

2  Q.  How  long  have  you  been  connected  with  Mr 

A.  For  the  last  eighteen  years. 

3  Q.  "Were  you  connected  with  him  during  his  elec¬ 
tric  light  experiments  in  1878,  and  since  that  time,  and  43 
if  so,  in  what  capacity  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  was.  I  was  employed  in  making  all 
sorts  of  apparatus  from  pencil  sketches  for  electrical 
and  other  work. 

4  Q.  Did  you  know  of  any  experiments  by  Mr.  Edi¬ 
son  on  electric  meters  employing  electrolytic  or  de¬ 
composition  cells,  and  if  so,  where  were  these  experi- 
ments  begun? 

A.  My  first  recollection  of  these  exp-,  aments  was  in 
the  fall  of  1878.  44 

5  Q.  I  call  your  attention  to  page  41  of  Mr.  Edison’s 
Laboratory  Note  Book  No.  206,  which  page  is  marked 
in  evidence  as  Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  1.  Have  you  ever 
seen  this  page  before  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  put  my  initials  “  J.  F.  0.”  on  that 
page  as  a  witness  on  April  3d,  1881. 

6  Q.  What  is  the  experiment  recorded  on  thnt  page? 

A.  It  is  a  meter  experiment  of  Mr.  Edison  wherein 

a  copper  cylinder  is  immersed  in  a  sulphate  of  copper 
solution  with  a  copper  plate  immersed  in  the  solution 

7<rw«,  b 

^ZeTZ  Jr7  °f  C°»er  P'«  tlePla°0  °f 

s  apparatus  shown  PP  tus  "as  the  Sam„  “ 


1,8  Prineiple.  ““dc  st>H  other  apparafu 

1  of°  t' b  “e.  *“•  aiuth  )  J°®  P-  On, 

)raag e,Vj.  '  D‘  1888  J 

Notary  PnhH  J'- ICEAnss’ 

Counsel  JEd.  lnaDdf0r^J— 
'e(l  copy  ®dlson  offers  in  evidence  , 


[Notary’s  Certificate.  13 

State  of  New  Jersey,  )  49 

County  of  Essex,  J 

I  I,  William  J.  Kearns,  a  notary  public,  within  and 
|for  the  State  of  New  Jersey,  do  hereby  certify  that  the 
(foregoing  deposition  of  John  F.  Ott  was  taken  on 

11  behalf  of  Thomas  A.  Edison,  in  pursuance  of  the 
(notice  hereto  annexed,  before  me  at  the  laboratory  of 
I T.  A.  Edison,  Esq.,  in  Orange,  in  said  County,  on  the 
ninth  day  of  August,  1888  ;  that  said  witness  was  by 
[me  duly  sworn  before  the  commencement  of  his 
1  testimony ;  that  the  testimony  of  said  witness  was 
written  out  by  myself  stenographically,  and  afterward 
transcribed  in  my  presence  into  longhand ;  that  said 
testimony  was  taken  at  Orange  aforesaid,  and  was 
commenced  at  11  o’clock,  A.  M.,  on  the  ninth  of  August, 
1888,  and  was  concluded  on  the  same  day ;  that  I  am 
not  connoted  by  blood  or  marriage  with  either  of  said 
parties,  nor  interested  directly  or  indirectly  in  the 
j  matter  in  controversy. 

In  testimony  whereof,  I  have  hereunto  set  „ 
[SEAL.]  my  hand  and  affixed  my  seal  of  office, 

at  Newark,  in  said  County,  this  ninth 
day  of  August,  1888. 

Wm.  J.  Kearns, 

Notary  Public. 

Original  Caveat. 



|  Interference. 

}-  Electrical 
I  Meters. 

P  “  Edison’s  Exhibit  No.  2,”  Nov.  17,  1885. 

1  i  Tllu  obJeot  °f  this  invention  is  to  produce  an  electric 
9  meter  capable  of  measuring  in  a  convenient  and  econ- 

3  °ml°al  manuer  tbB  <Pmntity  of  electricity  passing  in  an 
r|  electric  circuit. 

%  Jbe  invention  consists  in  various  devices,  many  of 
%  wluoh 1  have  end  others  which  I  am  now  engaged 
m  experimenting  upon  to  ascertain  the  best  kind  to 
meet  all  the  conditions  for  practical  use  in  my  system 

4  of  electric  lighting.  3  * 

1 1  In  Fig.  1  is  shown  a  meter  which  records  by  the  ex- 
?!  paDS1°a  of  ‘he  air  in  a  closed  chamber  A,  such  expan- 
JJ  sion  bemg  due  to  the  heating  of  a  coil  of  wire  carbon 

J'  or  other _  conductor  B  placed  within  such  chamber.  0 
is  a  flexible  portion  of  the  chamber  working  like  that 
of  an  aneroid  barometer  or  an  accordion;  the  move¬ 
ment  of  this  flexible  portion  of  the  chamber  serves  to 
M  8lve  motion  to  a  lever  d,  which  actuating  a  ratchet  in 
I  tbe  eonnter/serves  to  count  every  reciprocation  or 
f  vibration  of  the  lever  d.  The  wire  B  being  in  one  part 
|  °f  the  main  circuit  M,  N,  is  heated  upon  the  passage 
|  of  the  current,  this  in  its  turn  expands  the  air  within 
|  the  chamber;  this  moves  the  lever  downward  when  at 
J  a  certain  point  it  touches  the  lever  K  and  moves  it  from 
f  the  point  L  to  the  point  G.  Now  the  lever  K  being 
i  connected  to  one  side  of  the  wire  in  the  chamber  while 
I  the  point  G  is  connected  to  the  other  side,  the  contact 

Original  Caveat. 

57  fmmV"0  ™  t,°  Shnnt  tbe  current  almost  entirely 
from  the  wire  B,  thus  allowing  it  to  cool,  hence  the  2 
contracts,  the  lever  is  drawn  upwards  and  when  it 
reaches  a  certain  point  it  disconnects  the  lever  K  from 
G,  breahng  he  shunt,  whereupon  the  coil  B  again  be- 

lever  d  will  mate  a  complete  vibration  being  that ’duo 

s' tr ’ 

58  nnmb^f^i  th<!  le'er  d  wi]1  raak°  a  greater 

nnmhe  f  lb  at  o  per  to  tie  be  be 

Sf«:  «>  *i™  i. 

a”‘”  a“«"  '■ »“• 


SSivr  55 

*mmm I 

edge  is  made  lighter^  While  the  °‘b<* 

of  the  disc  2r xV7°« i continuoi,s r0ktion 

winch,  if  lts  shaft  be  connected  with  a 

Original  Caveat.  16 

counter  will  give  the  amount  of  current  passing.  Fig.  4, 
shows  an  electro-magnet  N,  which  vibrates  a  lever  K 
pivoted  at  m  and  retracted  by  the  moveable  weight  L. 
On  the  lower  extremity  of  this  lever  is  a  rack  f  which 
engages  into  a  pinion  g  secured  to  the  shaft  e.  Upon 
the  same  shaft  is  a  retarding  fan  H,  and  also  a  disc  d, 
which  carries  a  click  or  dog  B,  engaging  in  a  ratchet 
wheel  placed  on  another  and  independent  shaft,  the 
latter  shaft  being  a  part  of  the  counter.  At  every  re¬ 
ciprocation  or  vibration  of  the  lever  K  the  shaft  c  is 
rotated  a  J  or  £  turn  and  then  brought  back  to  its  orig¬ 
inal  position ;  but  this  reciprocation  of  the  shaft  e 
causes  a  rotation  of  the  counter  shaft  in  a  constant 
direction.  B  is  a  levor  which  is  moved  by  K.  When 
a  current  passes  through  the  magnet  N  the  lover  K  is 
attracted  when  it  reaches  a  certain  point  in  its  forward 
movement  it  separates  the  lover  B  from  the  point  S 
and  breaks  the  circuit  of  the  magnet  N,  the  levor  K 
falls  hack  and  throws  E  against  S,  again  closing  the 
circuit,  when  the  same  action  again  takes  place,  the 
number  of  vibrations  of  K  being,  within  certain  limits, 
proportionate  to  the  current  passing  through  the  mag¬ 
net  N,  it  follows  that  the  counter  A  will  record  the 
total  current  passing. 

Big.  5  shows  a  continuously  vibrating  pendulum  0, 
secured  at  20  and  provided  with  contact  springs  1  and 
2,  facing  contact  points  Q,  P ;  the  point  P  is  connected 
by  wire  4  to  the  magnetB  while  Q  is  connected  to  the 
magnet  S  by  the  wire  6.  The  other  ends  of  the  magnet 
are  connected  together  and  to  the  lino  by  the  wire  N. 
The  pendulum  itself  is  connected  to  the  other  portion 
of  the  line  by  the  wire  M ;  thus  a  derived  or 
multiple  arc  circuit  serves  to  work  the  pendulum, 
when  the  latter  in  its  oscillation  has  its  contact 
point  come  in  contact  with  the  point  P,  a  current 
passes  through  the  magnet  E  for  an  instant,  causing  it 
to  attract  the  pendulum ;  upon  the  bob  T  of  the  latter 
there  is  secured  a  piece  of  soft  iron  on  each  side ;  hence 
the  pendulum  goes  towards  E;  when  the  spring  Z 
touches  point  Q  the  reverse  action  takes  place  and  the 
magnet  S  attracts  the  pendulum ;  this  continues  as  long 




Original  Caveat. 

65  as  there  is  current  on  the  main  line  It  h.  The  pendu¬ 
lum  itself  serves  to  vibrate  a  levor  V  pivoted  at  IV,  and 
playing  between  contact  points ;  the  lever  and  points 
serve  to  open  and  close  the  circuit  of  a  magnet  A  at 
each  vibration  of  the  pendulum ;  thus  the  lever  e  of  the 
magnet  A  is  vibrated  regularly ;  upon  the  extremity  of 
this  lever  is  a  pawl  d,  engaging  in  a  ratchet  wheel  B. 
This  ratchet  has  a  click  c,  which  provents  it  going 
backward  ;  this  ratchet  is  on  the  shaft  of  the  counter. 
The  retractile  force  on  the  lever  e  is  a  stiff  spring  f.  If 

66  a  single  lamp  is  put  across  the  circuit  at  the  ends 
marked  L,  K  a  current  passes  through  the  magnet  A 

•  and  the  lover  vibrates,  but  owing  to  the  stiffness  of  the 
spring  if  it  barely  catches  one  tooth  in  the  ratchet  B, 
thus  advancing  the  counter  shaft  very  slightly  at  each 
vibration.  If  now  another  lamp  is  put  across  tho  main 
circuit  the  current  is  doubled  in  A,  and  ns  it  1ms  more 
power  the  spring  f  bends  to  a  greater  extent  and  the 
click  d  carries  the  ratchet  wheel  forward  two  teeth, 
and  so  on  until  ten  lamps  are  on ;  when  this  point  is 

67  reached  a  second  magnet  requiring  the  current  due  to 
ten  lamps  to  give  its  first  vibration  can  bo  put  in  circuit, 
its  counting  being  of  a  higher  value. 

In  Fig.  6  a  copper  depositing  cell  V  is  put  across  the 
lino  in  multiple  arc,  but  included  in  circuit  with  it  are 
a  number  of  resistances,  IV,  X,  T,  Z.  These  resistances 
are  cut  in  and  out  of  circuit  by  the  movement  of  the 
levers  of  the  electro-magnets  E,  F,  G,  H,  K.  The 
magnets  K  and  E  are  so  adjusted  that  the  placing  of 
the  first  lamp  across  the  mains  will  allow  enough  cur- 

68  rent  to  pass  to  cause  the  magnets  to  attract  their  levers ; 
the  lever  of  K  serves  to  connect  the  depositing  cell  and 
resistance  in  circuit,  while  the  lever  of  E  cuts  out  E  W 
causing  the  current  passing  to  be  of  the  proper  strength 
to  deposit  the  amount  of  copper  in  Y  to  represent  a 
lamp.  If  now  another  lamp  is  placed  across  the  main 
circuit  it  will  cause  the  lever  of  F  to  be  attracted,  cut¬ 
ting  out  the  resistance  X  and  causing  double  the  de- 
posit  to  take  place  in  V,  and  so  on. 

In  Fig.  7  is  shown  an  electro-magnet.  A  whole  lever 
rests  upon  a  large  number  of  springs  i,  i,  i,  all  separated 

net  A  a  resistance  E  is  divided  upon  into  as  many  coils 
as  there  are  springs  and  a  spring  is  connected  by  a  wire 
and  between  each  coil. 

M  is  a  copper  depositing  cell  or  electro-motor  work¬ 
ing  a  counter ;  its  current  is  obtained  by  a  derived  or 
multiple  arc  circuit  across  the  main  and  through  the 
resistance,  E.  F  is  an  electro-magnet  which,  when  no 
lamps  are  on,  open  the  meter  circuit,  thus  preventing 
recording,  but  when  a  lamp  is  put  in,  the  circuit  causes 
F  to  close  the  meter  circuit  and  the  deposit  takes  70 
place ;  if  now  two  lamps  are  put  in  the  lever  of  A 
comes  down  upon  the  springs  with  sufiicient  force  to 
close  the  top  and  next  spring  under  together,  cutting 
out  of  the  meter  circuit  a  definite  portion  of  the  resist¬ 
ance,  E,  thus  increasing  the  deposit ;  if  three  lamps  are 
put  in,  then  two  more  springs  are  pressed  together  by 
the  action  of  the  increased  strength  of  current  acting 
through  A  upon  tho  lever  B,  and  so  on. 

Fig.  8  shows  a  device  which  I  now  use  in  my  regular 
meter  to  close  the  meter  circuit  only  when  a  lamp  is  71 
on,  and  to  open  it  when  no  lamps  are  on,  so  that  the 
counter  electro-motive  force  will  not  cause  a  redissolv¬ 
ing  of  the  copper  deposited  by  lamps  previously  on. 

Fig.  9  shows  an  indicating  meter  where  mercury  is 
used.  C  is  the  main  containing  cell  of  glass ;  N  a 
carbon  electrode,  .p  is  another  carbon  electrode;  d  is 
a  tube  small  at  the  bottom  and  wide  at  the  top. 

The  whole  of  the  cell  is  filled  with  a  mercurial  solu¬ 
tion.  “When  a  current  passes  metallic  mercury  appears 
at  P  and  drops  down  in  the  tube  d  as  fast  as  formed  72 
and  in  proportion  to  the  strength  of  the  current  by 
using  an  index  card,  the  amount  of  mercury  in  the  tube 
can  be  read  off;  by  reversing  the  current  this  mercury 
may  be  made  to  disappear,  and  thus  allowing  of  read¬ 
ing  the  total  current  which  has  passed  in  a  given  time. 

Fig.  10  shows  a  balanced  beam  cell,  B,  containing  a 
mercurial  solution  with  the  electrodes  at  the  end ;  the 
beam  is  balanced  at  F,  a  pointer,  f,  retracted  by  a 
spring,  G,  serves  to  indicate  the  deflection  of  the  beam 
at  H.  A  A  are  mercury  cups,  into  which  wires  dip, 

Original  Caveat. 

Original  Caveat. 

7 6  "  UlcU  lend  tue  carbon  electrodes  in  the  ends  of  the 
beam  cell;  when  the  current  passes  mercury  is  taken 
by  electrolytic  action  from  one  end  of  the  beam  and 
deposited  at  the  other,  thus  causing  it  to  deflect  and 
indicate.  It  is  obvious  that  continuous  counting  could 
be  obtained  by  applying  the  devices  shown  in  my  beam 
meter,  for  which  I  already  have  a  patent. 

Fig.  11  shows  two  dishes ;  one,  F,  contains  metallic 
mercury  and  forms  one  electrode,  while  a  glass  cham¬ 
ber,  C,  over  the  open  mouth  of  which  is  stretched  or 

74  placed  a  porous  diaphragm  ;  this  chamber  is  also  filled 
with  metallic  mercury  up  to  the  top  of  the  tube,  B. 

Some  mercurial  solution  is  poured  over  the  mercury 
E  to  allow  of  electrolysis;  the  mercury  in  C  is  connected 
to  the  main  hue  shunt  by  a  platina  wire,  X,  passing 
through  the  chamber,  while  the  mercury  E  is  con¬ 
nected  by  another  wire.  When  a  current  passes  the 
total  amount  of  metallic  mercury  in  C  is  increased 
hence  it  overflows  into  A,  where  its  amount  can  bo 
read  off. 

75  .  It  is  obviotis  that  if  instead  of  allowing  it  to  fall 
in  A,  it  were  to  fall  in  buckets  arranged  at  intervals 
around  the  run  of  a  wheel,  it  would  rotate  the  wheel 
and  each  bucket  would,  when  it  came  around,  deliver 
the  mercury  back  into  E  to  be  again  carried  upwards 
into  c,  the  shaft  of  the  bucket  wheel  being  connected 

o  a  counter  a  continuous  counting  would  take  place. 

Add-In  my  regular  deposit  meter  I  have  used  plates 
of  amalgamated  zinc  in  a  solution  of  sulphate  of  zinc, 
the  zmc  being  electrically  deposited  and  weighed. 

Fig.  12  shows  an  electro  magnet  A  in  the  main  or 
consumption  circuit.  It  may  instead  be  in  a  shunt 

lnriilr0m'  i  8-  ar“atUre  l0Ver  B  is  retracted  by 
spring  a  and  carries  a  counter  or  a  register  C,  operated 

by  an  exposed  cog  wheel  b.  Cog  wheel  b  engages  with  77 
the  teeth  of  a  variable  gear  D,  which  is  driven  at  a  uni¬ 
form  speed  by  clock  work  E,  or  other  suitable  driving 
mechanism.  The  gear  D  is  a  cylinder  having  rows  of 
teeth,  which  vaiy  in  number,  the  number  of  teeth  being 
regularly  diminished  from  the  bottom  to  the  top  of  the 
cylinder.  If  no  lamp  is  in  circuit,  the  wheel  b  will  be 
raised  by  spring  a  wholly  above  the  teeth  of  D.  If  one 
lamp  is  turned  on,  b  will  be  drawn  down  and  will  be 
moved  by  one  tooth  on  D.  If  two  lamps  are  used,  b 
will  be  drawn  down  to  next  row  which  has  two  teeth,  78 
and  so  on  for  additional  lights  until  the  maximum  number 
of  lights  for  which  the  meter  is  arranged  has  been 





- — J  82 

“  Edison’s  Exhibit  Meter  Caveat  of  Octo¬ 
ber  4,  1881.”  August  9,  1888. 



United  States  Patent  Office.  83 

To  all  persons  to  whom  these  presents  shall  come,  greeting : 

This  is  to  certify  that  the  annexed  is  a  true  copy 
from  the  files  of  this  office  of  the  petition,  specification, 
oath  and  drawing,  in  the  matter  of  the  caveat  of 

Thomas  A.  Edison, 

Filed  October  4th,  1881. 

For  improvement  in  electric  meters. 

In  testimony  whereof,  I,  Benton  J.  Hall, 
Commissioner  of  Patents,  have  caused 
the  seal  of  the  Patent  Office  to  he 
affixed  this  9th  day  of  August,  in  the 
[SEAL.]  year  of  our  Lord,  one  thousand  eight 
hundred  and  eighty-eight  and  of  the 
Independence  of  the  United  States 
the  one  hundred  and  thirteenth. 

Benton  J.  Hall, 


of  8W.°of  Xew  Je4Vd£Un 


m#»nfc  r«..  *i.«  . .  *  °  ®eu  in  making  expei 

ments  foi  the  purpose  of  perfecting  the  same,  prenar 
tory  to  apply, ug  for  letters  patent  therefor  P 

hislnventio!01'0  PT«,ll,:t  4110  Snbjoi"Ctl  description  , 
tus i  invention  may  bo  filed  as  a  caveat  in  the  confide, 
tial  archives  of  the  Patent  Office.  “““ 

Thomas  A.  Ediso.w 

T°  the  Commissioner  of  Paten! s  : 

PjU  il;  known,  that  I,  Thomas  A 
Coun^of'iidSse;  "muj  SUte"  of^e!v  Je^’ 

sis  “  ;,r  *  i“  s ,o  ^ 

ereof.  company  mg  drawings  forming  a  part 

iSS“iUV°:lti0,lis  t0  Produce  an  electric 


i r^Tlt ^  *  ~I?**  -  a 

Hither  of  ways,  hy  dov 
'•I  others  of  which  I,„ 
*»n  lo  ascertain  the  h 
’"H°f  practical  use  in 
1,1  %m>  1,  is  shown 
pnimion  of  (lie  air  in 

Vices,  some  of  which  I  have  tried 
m  now  engaged  in  experimenting 
>ost  form  to  meet  all  the  eondi- 
‘  "O’  system  of  electric  lighting 
1 11  ,nutur  which  records  by  the 
iv  closed  chamber  A :  snei,  pv. 

wire  in  the  chamber,  while  the  point  G  is  connected  .to 
the  other  side,  the  contact  of  the  two  serves  to  shunt 
the  current  almost  entirely  from  the  wire  B,  thus  allow¬ 
ing  it  to  cool ;  hence  the  air  contracts,  and  the  lever  il 
is  drawn  upwards ;  wliou  the  lover  d  reaches  a  cer¬ 
tain  point  it  disconnects  the  lever  K  from  G,  breaking 
the  shunt,  whereupon  the  coil  B  again  becomes  heated 
and  expands  the  air,  and  the  lever  d  makes  another  91 

The  minimum  current  with  which  the  lover  d  will 
make  a  completo  vibration  being  that  duo  to  placing  a 
single  electric  lamp  across  the  circuit,  the  addition  of 
more  lamps  will  cause  the  air  to  expand  more  quickly 
and  the  lever  d  to  make  a  greater  number  of  vibrations 
per  minute,  the  number  of  vibrations  being  proportion¬ 
ate  to  the  number  of  lamps.  Each  vibration  has  an 
effect  upon  the  recording  mechanism,  the  dial  or  dials 
of  which  may  bo  arranged  for  any  desired  system  of  in-  92 

Figure  2  shows  a  modification  of  Figure  1,  the  expan¬ 
sion  of  the  wire  A  forming  part  of  the  circuit  serving  to 
replace  the  air  chamber.  This  wire  is  preferably  in¬ 
closed  in  a  chamber,  but  the  expansion  of  the  air  is  not 

Figure  3  shows  a  continuously  counting  meter  upon 
the  depositing  cell  principle.  A,  is  a  narrow  trough,  in 
which  rotates  a  disc  B  of  copper  upon  its  axle  c.  On 
opposite  edges  of  the  disc  are  two  copper  poles  or  elec- 

T7  r  i  ;  IU0  resistaiice  h  in  the  main  u„ 

fd  Wh  l6"™3  9{‘  TheSe  electrodes  -e  mai 

the  liquid  to  e.  A  nortinn  «P  ‘  ’  Und 

Kuf^rr1*  -  “=32£5 

The  result  of  the  action  of  the  cniTeut  is  t„n  „ 
l  copper  from  d.  adding  it  to  the  ed-ra  Zen  ?.  *  take  ofl 
B  hoarier  on  the  rid?  towards  d  m,d  aVtlm  “*  "“S"8 
copper  is  taken  off  the  edge  of  B  n  „  ,  Samo  t,me 

posited  upon  c,  thus  \ 

opposite  e.  Hence  hv  «1A  ,  ea*>e  of  fclie  disc  B 

is  contin„alirrcvLtdrfr,dOPOSit  °n°  Sid°  °f  B 

which  carries  a  pawl  Bn.,  °  ■  and  “*so  a  disc  d, 

”  •»“■«  ...i  ;wr,„*toi  |,,“j 

wg  a  part  of  the  counting  „r  ™’rbe  r  sbaft  be- 

At  every  rcciprocaSn  or  Z  ^  mooha"»«“- 
the  shaft  c  is  rotated  a  half  n  bratl°“  °f  tho  Ierer  K. 

brought  back  to  the  oririn  1  q“a.rter  turn>  and  is  then 
cation  of  the  shaft  c  cMsesTrolT’ ^ ‘blS  leoipro- 
shaft  in  a  constant  direction  T“  ° !  ^  C°Unt°r 
moved  by  K.  When  a  current  n  R  “  I<3Ver  "-hicl1 » 
net  N,  the  lever  K  is  attract  i  pa“es  trough  the  mng- 
tain  point  in  it7  Wbea  *  caches  a  cer- 

lever  K  from  tho  point  S  n  “°'’emenfc  lfc  separates  the 
magnet  N.  Then  tlm  lever  K  n  ?“  ei‘^olthe 
against  S,  again  closing  tl  •  back  aml  throws  K 
«°n  is  repeated.  lK“0U  ■  'Vhen  tbe  aame  no- 
■mmite  being,  within  cer^i?*"*008  °f  K  per 
“  limits,  proportionate  to 


101  tee.°i\ antl  80  °“  until  ten  lamps  are  on  AVI, 
point  is  reached  a  second  ma-net  reonWn 

a  number  of  resistances  AAr,  XJZ  m, 

“■ss?. tsrisvi.tsr 

tbe  fct" lamp'aeross'tbe  S' ^ 
strength  paSsinS  to  k  of  the  nr 

»»lor  together,  cutting  out  of  the 

'  1,0110,1  0  the  resistance  JR,  and 

nrcssli  T  .T  areput  iu> 
Passed  together  by  the  action  of 

if  the  copper  deposited  by  lamps  previously  on. 
a  depositing  cell  meter  and  B  the  electro  -magnet 
ipeniug  and  closing  the  meter  circuit.  < 

guro  9  shows  an  indicating  meter  in  which  iner- 
is  used.  C  is  the  main  coll  of  glass  X  a  carbon 
rode.  P  is  another  carbon  electrode ;  tl  is  a  tube, 
11  at  the  bottom  and  wide  at  the  top.  The  whole 
LO  cell  C  is  filled  with  a  mercurial  solution. 
rhen  a  current  passes  metallic  mercury  appears  at 
id  drops  down  into  the  tube  d  as  fast  as  formed, 
in  proportion  to  the  strength  of  the  current, 
y  using  an  index  card  the  amount  of  mercury  in  the 
1  call  be  read  off.  By  reversing  the  current  this 
cury  may  be  made  to  disappear,  thus  allowing  of 
ling  the  total  current  which  has  passed  m  a  given 

'imiro  10  shows  a  balance  beam  cell  B  contaiumg  a 
•curial  solution,  and  having  the  electrodes  at  the 
s.  The  beam  is  balanced  at  F. 

.pointer /retracted  by  a  spring  G  serves  to  mdi- 
3  the  deflection  of  the  beam  at  H.  AAaremer- 
y  cups,  into  which  wires  dip  which  lead  to  the  car- 
l  electrodes  in  the  ends  of  the  beam  cell.  AVhen 
current  passes  mercury  is  taken  by  electrolytic  ac- 
i  from  one  end  of  the  beam,  and  deposited  at  the 
er  end,  thus  causing  it  to  deflect  and  indicate, 
t  is  obvious  tliat  continuous  counting  could  be  ob- 
aed  by  applying  the  devices  shown  in  my  beam 
ter  for  which  I  already  have  a  patent. 

Figure  11  shows  two  dishes  ;  one,  F,  contains  metal- 
mercury  and  forms  one  electrode,  while  a  glasi 
amber  C,  over  the  open  mouth  of  which  is  stretcliec 
placed  a  porous  diaphragm,  is  also  filled  with  mer 
rv  up  to  the  top  of  tube  B  and  forms  the  other  elec 

cuiy  Jii.  r  cu  over  the  mer- 


amount  of  metallic  merenrv  inO™ •  PaS8es  tlle  ‘otal 
it  overflows  into  A  where  V  1Dcreased-  Hence 

no  around  then, n  of  a  wheeM?  “T?86'1  at  in‘crvnls 
“nd  eaob  Ij"cket  would,  when  itT  ^  r°tat°  t!‘°  "-I,eel. 
ke  mercury  back  into  E  toh  “  around  deliver 
IltoG  Me  shaft  o7theiucttwimnn'ied  Upwarda 
to  a  counter,  a  continuous eoun«L  ’*"»  C°nnected 
Figure  12  shows  an  elenf™  ‘  g  wonId  take  place. 

consumption  circuit.  It  ZT^T  ,A  ^  t!l°  main  or 
therefrom.  '  “  Iua-V  instead  be  in  a  shunt 

Tim  armature  lever  T!  , 
carries  a  counter  or  re-rister  cretraoted  b.V  spring  a  and 
1  n  cogwheel  l.  S  e‘  °-  operated  by  an  exposed 

D.  "-hichTs1  drive®” 1 autnif4110  ^  °f  a  TOrinblo  gear 

or  other  suitable  ii  ZZ  T  ^  °]o<*  «*  Z 
cylinder  having  rows  of  Zt^Ti  TJ,e  gear  D  «  a 
m  number  of  teeth  beiul  le '  “f  T«y  in  number, 

.tke  bottom  to  the  top  of  tiieTr^  dlminisLod  from 
la  0Ira«i‘  the  wheel  *  »°  lamp  is 

“Wo  the  teeth  of  D.  If  ®  ,  Sed  b?  sPriug  a  wholly 
be  drawn  down  and  will  ba  lamPIS  turned  on  4  will 
"2  If  lamps  are  used  4  ^11  K  T*  ^  °ne  to°tb  on  D. 
low  which  has  two  teeth  °1dmwu  down  to  ^<>  next 

gkts  until  the  maximum’ numl  8°  f°r  addi«onal 
£E«w<»h  t  h„,  _ 

ihe  amc  being  elect, i  “  °f  ““Ipkate  of 

,™‘s  specification,  signed  and  e?.°aited  ““d  weighed. 

°f  September,  1881.  ^  d  Wlt“essed  this  23d  day 

Witaesses:  Thos.  A.  Edison. 

*IC“’D-  N.  Dver, 
ff-  Wi.  Seeley. 

County  of  New  York,  5“ 

On  this  23d  day  of  September,  1881, 
icribor,  a  Notary  Public  in  and  for  sai 
ionally  appeared  the  within-named  Tin 
ind  made  solemn  oath  that  he  verily  1 
o  bo  the  original  aud  first  inventoi 
Inscribed  Improvement  in  Electric  3 
loes  not  know,  and  does  not  believe, 
vere  ever  before  known  or  used,  and  th 
,f  the  United  States. 

Wx.  H.  Meai 

[L.  s.]  Notary  I 


E.  J. 

F.  C.  T. 

[Endorsed  :1 

Patent  Office  Serial  No.  .  Th 

Invent.  Executed  Sept.  23,  ’81.  Fi! 
Subject — Electric  Jleters. 

Sprague  v.  Edison  (1885) 

1885  and  February  1886  and  by  Charl^^T  giV&i  ^uEdison  between  November 
a  patent  interfere  involving  Sfson and John  ° F*  °tt  in  AuSUSt  »««  in 
by  Edison  also  appears  in  the  DdntS  r^or7  by  SpraguL?;. A  technical  drawing 
testimony  are  discussions  of  Edison's  work  on  el^tric  met“  s  i^lS?^®1  *  the 



I  (CASE  B.) 



Attorney  for  Edison. 




Notice  of  taking  testimony . 

Preliminary  statement  of  Edison . 

Thomas  A.  Edison,  deposition  of _ 

Notary’s  Certificate,  Morris  E.  Sterne. 

Charles  Batchelor,  deposition  of . 

John  E.  Ott,  deposition  of . 

Notary’s  Certificate,  Wm.  J.  Kearns 
Edison’s  Exhibit  (copy  drawing) . 

..  1 
.  2 
.  3-9 
.  10 
.  15 
.  17 
.  18 

Interference.  (Case  B.) 
Electrical  Meters. 

To  MESsns.  Betts,  Attebbuby  <t  Betts  : 

Take  notice  that  on  Friday,  November  13th,  1885,  at 
10  o’clock,  A.  M.,  at  No.  65  Fifth  avenue,  New  York 
City,  I  shall  proceed  to  take  the  testimony  of  Thomas 
A.  Edison,  Charles  Batchelor,  Erancis  B.  Upton,  John 
Kruesi,  Martin  Force,  John  Ott  and  others,  as 
witnesses  in  behalf  of  Edison,  and  shall  continue  the 
examination  from  day  to  day  until  completed. 

You  are  invited  to  attend  and  cross-examine. 

Rich’d  N.  Dyeb, 

Attorney  for  Edison. 



Preliminary  Statement. 


Electrical  Meters. 
Case  B. 

Preliminary  Statement  of  Edison. 

State  op  New  Yoke,  ) 

7  County  of  New  York,  J  ss- : 

Thomas  A.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 
says,  in  relation  to  the  matters  in  issue  in  fho  of™™* 
entitled  interference,  as  follows : 

That  he  conceived  the  invention  in  „„  , 

Th  “  ?“* 

early  m  1880,  and  has  used  the  same  since. 

®  q_„_  ,  ,  ,  Thos.  A.  Edison. 

Sworn  to  and  subscnbed  before  me  } 
this  15th  day  of  April  1883.  \ 

"Wji.  H.  Meadoworopt, 

1-SEALJ  Notary  Public, 

New  York  County. 

Thomas  A.  Edison.  3 



Application  filed  May  9, 1881,  / 

against  \ 


Application  filed  January  31, 1881. ) 

s|  Interference  Electrical  Meters. _ Case  B. 

4  Testimony  taken  in  behalf  of  Thomas  A.  Edison  pur- 

suant  to  notice  hereto  annexed,  at  No.  65  Fifth  avenue, 
i|  New  York  City,  the  17th  day  of  November,  1885. 

it  Present  : 

jj  J.  E.  Hindon  Hyde,  Counsel  for  Sprague.  11 

John  C.  Tomlinson  and  Richard  N.  Dyer,  Counsel 

il!  for  Edison. 


|  Thomas  A.  Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 

jf  says  in  answer  to  questions  proposed  by  John  C.  Tom- 

jj]  linson,  counsel  for  Edison,  as  follows  : 

I  1  Q-  What  is  name,  age,  residence  and  occupa- 

!|  tion?  1 

:|  A-  Thomas  A.  Edison ;  residence,  New  York ;  age,  12 

31  38 ;  occupation,  inventor. 

Ifl  2  Q-  Please  state  generally  the  experiments  upon 

|  which  you  were  engaged  relating  to  electric  light  from 

I  the  early  fall  of  1878  to  the  winter  of  1879  and  1880. 

j?  Objected  to  as  immaterial  and  irrelevant. 

I  A.  I  was  engaged  in  experimenting  to  devise  a  com- 

|  plete  system  of  electric  lighting  by  electrical  incan- 

II  descence  distributed  in  a  manner  analogous  to  gas. 

4  Thomas  A.  Edison. 

13  3  Q.  Was  an  electrical  meter  a  necessary  part  of 
such  a  system  ? 

4  Q.  The  issues  in  this  interference  as  defined  by  the 
Patent  Office  are : 

First.  An  electrical  meter  consisting  of  a  cell,  a  spring 
suspended  electrode  und  on  index  and  scale. 

Second.  The  combination  in  an  electrical  meter  of  a. 
cell,  a  spring  suspended  electrode  therein,  and  means 
controlled  thereby,  for  reversing  the  circuit  through  the 

14  cell  to  cause  each  electrode  to  become  alternately  anode 
and  cathode. 

Thuid.  The  combination  in  an  electrical  meter  of  a. 
cell,  a  spring  supported  electrode  therein,  and  means, 
controlled  thereby,  for  registering  the  rise  and  fall  of 
such  electrode  in  the  cell.  Please  state  when  you  first 
conceived  the  idea  of  the  invention  stated  in  these 
issues,  when  and  what  experiments  were  performed  by 
you  relating  to  the  same,  and  when  and  what  apparatus 
was  constructed  by  you  embodying  the  invention  re- 

15  ferred  to  ? 

Objected  to  as  incompetent  if  intended  to  con¬ 
tradict  the  allegation  contained  in  the  prelimin¬ 
ary  statement  filed  by  witness,  and  notice  is  given 
that  a  motion  will  be  made  to  strike  out  any  and 
all  testimony  which  may  be  given  by  the  witness, 
and  having  such  a  tendency.  ■ 

A.  I  conceived  the  invention  in  October,  1878.  In 

16  October  and  November,  1878,  I  constructed  apparatus 
embodying  the  issues. 

5  Q.  Please  describe  the  apparatus  referred  to  in 
your  last  answer  as  embodying  the  issues  in  this  inter¬ 
ference  ? 

A.  The  apparatus  while  differently  designed  is  fully 
explained  in  my  specifications  of  the  application  in 
interference,  and  is  illustrated  in  the  drawing  forming 
part  of  the  application,  a  photograph  of  which  I  now 

Thomas  A.  Edison.  5 

offered  in  evidence  by  counsel  for  Edison,  and  17 
marked  Edison’s  Exhibit  “  Copy  Drawing.” 
Subject  to  correction  by  the  original  drawing. 

6  Q.  How  many  meters  of  the  character  described  in 
"the  specification  in  interference  were  made  by  you  or 
under  your  direction  subsequent  to  October,  1878  ? 

A.  I  should  say  a  half  a  dozen. 

7  Q.  Were  these  meters  placed  in  circuit  and  put  in 
use  in  your  laboratory  ? 

A.  Yes.  18 

8  Q.  About  when  were  they  placed  in  circuit  as  near 
as  you  now  remember  ? 

Objection  same  as  question  4. 

A.  Soon  after  they  were  made. 

9  Q.  Did  you  disclose  to  your  assistants  the  inven¬ 
tion  at  or  about  the  time  of  its  conception,  and  were 
they  familar  with  the  experiments  and  apparatus  made 

by  you?  ln 

A.  Yes. 

10  Q.  Have  you  examined  the  specification  and  draw¬ 
ing  of  the  English  patent  of  John  Toby  Sprague,  No. 

4762  of  1878? 

A.  I  have. 

11  Q.  Please  state  the  purpose  for  which  you  exam¬ 
ined  said  patent,  how  thorough  your  examination  was, 
and  what  was  the  result  of  that  examination  and  when 
it  was  made  ? 

A.  I  examined  this  patent  very  thoroughly,  soon  20 
after  notification  of  interference  was  received.  I  was 
unable  to  see  how  the  apparatus  could  work  therein 
described  and  shown  in  the  figures  12  and  13. 

12  Q.  Please  examine  the  specification  and  drawing 
of  the  patent  referred  to  and  state  whether  in  your 
opinion  the  specification  and  drawing  disclose  to  a 
person  skilled  in  electrical  matters  and  in  mechanics  an 
operative  or  working  device  for  measuring  electricity 
and  whether  such  a  person  without  the  exercise  of  in- 

Photographic  copy  referred  to  by  witness  is 

a  patent  specification  even  in  the  present  state  of 
art,  I  do  not  think  that  any  apparatus  could  be  con¬ 
structed  by  an  expert  from  that  specification  -which 
would  work.  To  my  mind  it  is  ntterly  blind.  I  refer  to 
the  figures  12  and  13  and  also  to  the  specification  relat¬ 
ing  thereto. 

Adjourned  to  Friday,  November  20th,  10  A.  M. 

November  20th,  1885. 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

scribed  by  you  in  'vour  last  answer  were  made  after  25 
October,  1878,  and  placed  in  circuit  and  put  in  use  in 
your  laboratory  soon  after  they  were  made ;  please 
state  as  nearly  as  you  now  remember  the  months  and 
year  in  which  they  were  so  made  and  used  ? 

Same  objection  and  notice  of  motion  as  to 
question  4. 

A.  November,  1878. 


Counsel  for  Edison  here  give  notice  that  if 
it  be  found  that  there  is  any  variance  between 
the  testimony  on  behalf  of  Edison  and  the  facts 
stated  in  his  preliminary  statement  they  will,  at 
the  proper  time,  move  to  amend  the  preliminary 

Adjourned  to  November  27th,  at  10  A.  M. 

Met  pursuant  to  adjournment. 

Same  counsel  as  before. 

Adjourned  to  December  2d,  11  A.  M. 

Met  pursuant  to  adjournment. 

Present — Same  parties  as  before. 

Cross-examination  op  Mb.  Edison  : 

15  x-Q.  What  were  the  names  of  the  assistants  to 
whom  you  alluded  in  answer  to  question  9  ? 

A.  John  Ott,  John  Kruesi,  Charles  Batchelor,  Martin 
Force,  Francis  Jehl  and  others  whom  I  do  not  recol¬ 
lect  now. 

ber,  1878  :  where  are  those  sketches  and  models  ? 

A.  I  can’t  find  any  sketches  or  models.  I  thought 
I  had  them. 

17  x-Q.  Then  there  are  no  such  sketches  and  models 
now  in  existence,  are  there  ? 

A.  I  cannot  find  them. 

18  x-Q.  Have  you  looked  or  caused  others  to  look? 

A.  My  counsel  has  looked  through  my  sketch¬ 
books  ;  I  have  none.  I  have  had  one  of  my  assistants 
look  through  my  laboratory  in  New  York  for  models, 

Thomas  A.  Edison. 

26  x-Q.  Then  no  particular  attention  was  paid  to  the 
form  of  mechanism  ;  is  that  true? 

A.  Yes ;  to  a  certain  extent. 

27  x-Q.  To  what  extent  ? 

A.  In  all  these  meters  which  have  mechanism  where¬ 
by  a  guin  or  loss  of  weight  serves  to  give  motion  to  the 
mechanism  there  is  the  defect  of  friction  of  the  mech¬ 
anism,  and,  while  this  is  a  small  factor  where  heavy 
currents  can  be  used  and  does  not  count  greatly  against 
the  accuracy,  in  my  system  it  was  essential  to  use  very 
weak  currents  and  very  slight  increases  and  losses  in 
the  weights  of  the  plate.  Hence,  it  was  essential  to 
have  mechanism  which  would  be  very  delicate.  Even 
up  to  the  present  time  the  most  delicate  mechanism 
that  has  been  made  does  not  give  a  true  record  when 
very  weak  currents  are  used. 

28  x-Q.  Then,  if  I  understand  you,  at  the  time  that 
you  made  these  experiments  in  1880,  the  mechanism  of 
your  machines  was  not  satisfactory  ? 

A.  Both  the  mechanism  and  the  amount  of  deposit 
was  not  satisfactory. 

Adjourned  to  Saturday,  Jan.  30, 1886,  11  A.  M.  ' 
Thomas  A.  Edison. 

New  Yobk,  Jany.  30, 1886. 
Met  pursuant  to  adjournment. 

Present — Counsel  as  before. 

At  request  of  counsel  for  Sprague  an  adjournment 
was  taken  to  Thursday,  February  4, 1886,  at  11  A.  M. 

Pebbdahy  4th,  1886. 
Met  pursuant  to  adjournment. 

Present — Same  parties  as  before. 

Adjourned  to  meet  upon  agreement  of  counsel. 


Notary’s  Certificate. 



AppUeation  filed  May  9, 1881, 


Application  filed  January  31, 1881. 

'  (Case  B.) 

State  op  New  York,  ) 

City  and  County  of  New  York,  j  8S' : 

I,  Morans  E.  Sterne,  a  Notary  Public  in  and  for  the 
39.  City,  County  and  State  of  New  York,  do  hereby  certify 
that  the  foregoing  deposition  of  Thomas  A.  Edison 
was  taken  on  behalf  of  Thomas  A.  Edison  in  the 
above-entitled  interference  in  pursuance  of  the  notice 
hereto  annexed,  before  me  at  No.  65  Fifth  avenue  in 
the  City  of  New  York,  oh  the  17th  and  20th  days  of 
November,  1885,  and  the  2d  day  of  December,  1885. 
That  said  witness  was  by  me  duly  sworn  before 
the  commencement  of  his  testimony ;  that  said  testi¬ 
mony  was  by  consent  of  counsel  written  out  by 
40  Nora  McCarthy;  that  J.  E.  Hindon  Hyde,  counsel 
for  Sprague,  was  present  during  the  taking  of 
said  testimony;  that  said  testimony  was  taken  at 
No.  65  Fifth  avenue,  in  the  City  of  New  York, 
and  was  commenced  at  11  o'clock,  A.  M.,  on  the  17th 
day  of  November,  1885,  and  was  continued  pursuant  to 
adjournment  and  further  notice  on  the  20th  day  of 
November,  1885,  and  the  2d  day  of  December,  1885, 
and  was  concluded  on  the  last-mentioned  day,  and  that 
I  am  not  connected  by  blood  or  marriage  with  either 

Notary’s  Certificate.  11 

of  said  parties  or  interested  directly  or  indirectly  in  41 
the  matter  in  controversy.  1 

In  testimony  whereof  I  have  hereunto  set  my  baud 
and  affixed  my  seal  of  office,  at  New  York  City,  this 
24th  day  of  September,  1888. 



Charles  Batchelor. ' 

45  Orange,  N.  J.,  August  9th,  1888.  . 

Met  pursuant  to  agreement.  .  - 

Present— L.  E.  Curtis,  Esq.,  counsel  for  Sprague ; 
E.  N.  Dyer,  Esq.,  counsel  for  Edison. 

Charles  Batchelor,  a  -witness  produced  on  behalf  of 
Edison,  being  duly  sworn,  deposeth  and  says  as  fol¬ 
lows,  in  answer  to  questions  by  counsel  for  Edison  : 


1  Q.  What  is  your  name,  age,  residence  and  occupa¬ 
tion  ? 

A.  Charles  Batchelor;  age  42  years;  residence  225 
East  Seventeenth  street  N.  T. ;  occupation  assistant  to 
Thomas  A.  Edison. 

2  Q.  How  long  have  you  been  connected  with  Mr. 

A.  Since  the  early  part  of  1870. 

3  Q.  Were  you  connected  with  him  during  his  elee- 

47  trie  lighting  experiments  in  1878  and  1879,  and  if  so, 
in  what  capacity  ? 

A.  I  was,  as  chief  assistant. 

4  Q.  Did  Mr.  Edison  make  any  experiments  in  re¬ 
gard  to  electric  meters  employing  electrolytic  or  de¬ 
composition  cells,  and  if  so,  when  were  these  experi¬ 
ments  commenced  ? 

A.  Mr.  Edison  did  make  many  such  experiments, 
and  to  the  best  of  my  recollection  they  were  commenced 
in  the  latter  part  of  1878. 

48  5  Q.  What  was  the  character  of  the  experiments  that 
came  within  your  own  knowledge  that  were  make  by 
Mr.  Edison  in  1878,  relating  to  electric  meters  employ¬ 
ing  decomposition  cells  ? 

A.  The  experiments  that  I  remember  in  regard  to 
decomposition  cells,  were  ns  follows :  It  seemed  to  be 
a  favorite  idea  with  Mr.  Edison  to  measure  electricity 
by  means  of  depositing  the  metal  and  making  the 
weighted  plate  tell,  first,  by  weighing  and  afterwards 
by  recording  the  amount  of  electricity  that  passed. 
The  first  experiments  of  this  kind  that  I  remember 

Charles  Batchelor. 

were  simply  electrolytic  cells  in  which  the  metal  was  49 
taken  off  one  plate  and  deposited  on  the  other,  one  of 
which  plates  was  weighed  in  order  to  tell  how  much 
current  has  passed.  Mr.  Edison  also  made  experi¬ 
ments  with  a  similar  cell,  in  which  the  plate  to  be 
weighed  was  provided  -with  a  pointer,  which,  as  the 
metal  got  heavier  would  indicate  the  amount  of  current 
that  was  passed.  This  plate  was  suspended  by  a  spring 
in  some  cases,  and  in  other  cases  was  mounted  on  a 
counter-balance  arm  so  that  the  plate  fell  and  rose  in 
the  liquid  as  the  current  was  reversed.  He  also  made  50 
meters  on  the  electrolytic  principle  that  were  automatic 
in  their  action,  inasmuch  as  the  weighted  plate  would 
pull  down  a  scale  beam,  and  at  a  certain  point  would  re¬ 
verse  the  current  so  that  the  other  plate  conld  receive 
a  larger  portion  of  metal,  and  so  pull  the  scale  beam 
in  the  opposite  direction.  On  such  devices  recording 
arrangements  were  placed  which  would  keep  a  record 
of  the  current  that  had  passed  by  counting  the 
number  of  oscillations  that  the  lever  had 
made.  He  also  made  other  devices  where  a  51 
number  of  plates  were  placed  on  a  shaft,  and 
where  two  or  more  were  always  in  the  liquid,  one  of 
which  was  increasing  in  weight.  When  the  increase  of 
weight  had  reached  a  certain  point  the  wheel  would 
naturally  turn  slightly  in  one  direction,  which  would 
bring  another  of  the  plates  into  the  liquid  and  pass  one 
plale  out  of  the  liquid. 

6  Q.  I  call  your  attention  to  the  photographic  copy 
of  a  drawing  which  is  marked  in  evidence  Edison’s  Ex- 

Charles  Batchelor. 

63  experience  have  you  had  in  constructing  electrical  ap¬ 
paratus  from  descriptions  and  illustrations  contained  in 
patents  and  other  publications  ? 

A.  For  the  last  eighteen  years  I  hare  been  employed 
m  making  apparatus  from  pen  and  pencil  description 
and  from  Patent  Office  specifications,  and  I  consider 
myself  an  expert  in  such  manufacture. 

8  Q.IcaU  your  attention  to  the  English  patent  of 
fo-o  T„y  Spra«uo’  No'  4762, dated  22d  of  November, 
18/8.  Have  you  ever  examined  this  patent,  and,  if  so 

61  for  what  purpose  ? 

A.  I  have  carefully  read  the  patent,  and  have  partic¬ 
ularly  considered  it  in  regard  to  the  proposed  method 

there  of  measunng^tlie  current  electrolytically,  as  shown 

9  Q.  Please  state  whether  or  not  in  your  opinion  the 
specification  and  drawing  of  that  patent  are  sufficiently 
clear  to  enable  you  to  make  a  complete  working  device 
by  the  followmg  of  the  description  and  drawing  ? 

--  Ti  ,1  •  arS  n0t  suffio!ent>  a“d  are  exceedingly  vague. 

65  The  description  is  entirely  insufficient  to  enable  me  to 
make  from  it  a  working  apparatus  such  as  he  proposes. 
In  fact,  I  do  not  think  that  any  one  can  make  a  worka" 

Me  deruce  from  such  a  vague  description  and  drawing. 
The  patentee  states  what  he  desires  to  do,  but  does 

tT  loThe  wnZ  “IT  metU°d  °f  makiDg  the  aPP“atn8 

gen  us  of  11  eU&'ely  t0  the 

genius  of  the  man  who  tries  to  make  the  apparatus  to 
accomplish  what  he  proposes. 

66  Cross-examination  waived. 

Sworn  to  before  me  this  ninth  )  ^  BiT0HELOI!- 

“ar  of  August,  A.  D.  1888  > 
at  Orange,  N.  J.  ’  ( 

IVar.  J.  Kf.ap.x9, 

Notary  Public 

In  and  for  New  Jersey. 

John  P.  Ott. 

John  F.  Oit,  a  witness  produced  on  behalf  of  Edi¬ 
son,  being  duly  sworn,  deposeth  and  says  in  answer  to 
questions  proposed  by  counsel  for  Edison 

Honf  Wbnt  is  yQur  “ge,  residence  and  occupa- 
A.  John  F.  Ott,  age  38 ;  residence,  276  High  street  cs 
ofT  A  Edison^00’  SuperinteildeDt  of  the  Laboratory 
2  Q.  How  extensive  has  been  your  experience  in  the 
construction  of  electrical  apparatus  from  the  descrip¬ 
tions  and  drawings  of  patents  and  other  publications? 

A.  I  learned  my  trade  as  an  instrument  maker  in 
1864,  and  then  I  served  four  years  at  instrument  mak¬ 
ing.  Then  I  worked  in  New  York  at  the  construcHon 
of  Patent  Office  Models!  and  from  there  I  went  into  Mr 
Edison’s  employ  about  18  years  ago,  since  which  Hme  69 
I  have  been  daily  employed  in  the  construcHon  prin¬ 
cipally  of  electrical  apparatus  of  various  kinds.  This 
work  I  have  done  from  pencil  sketches  and  descripHons. 

I  have  also  made  a  good  deal  of  apparatus  from  pub- 
lished  descriptions  and  drawings  contained  in  patents 
and  periodicals. 

3  Q.  I  call  your  attenHon  to  the  English  Patent  of 
John  Toby  Sprague,  No.  4762,  dated  22d  November, 

1878.  fcfave  you  ever  examined  this  patent  ? 

A.  I  have  examined  this  patent  very  carefully  with  60 
reference  particularly  to  the  proposed  electric  meter 
illustrated  by  figures  12  and  13. 

4  Q.  Are  the  specification  and  drawing  of  this  patent 
sufficiently  full  and  clear  to  enable  you  to  make  a  work¬ 
ing  apparatus  from  it  ? 

A.  I  do  not  consider  it  so.  I  have  examined  the 
specificaHon  and  drawing  criHcally  and  I  fail  to  under¬ 
stand  what  the  construcHon  is  intended  to  be.  I  do 
not  think  the  specificaHon  is  sufficiently  full  or  the 

16  John  F.  Ott. 

61  drawing  sufficiently  clear  to  enable  anybody  to  make 
an  operative  meter  from  it. 

o  ,  ,  .  John  F.  Oxt. 

bwom  to  before  me  the  9th) 

T7ir.  J.  Kearns, 

Notary  Publio,  in  and  for 
New  Jersey. 

^2  Cross-examination  waived. 


Notary’s  Certificate.  17 

State  op  New  Jersey,  ) . 

County  of  Essex,  5  ss' :  00 

I,  Wnn am  J.  Kearns,  a  Notary  Public,  within  and 
for  the  State  of  New  Jersey,  do  hereby  certify  that  the 
foregoing  depositions  of  Charles  Bachelor  and  John  F. 

Ott  were  taken  on  behalf  of  Thomas  A.  Edison,  in  pur¬ 
suance  of  the  notice  hereto  annexed,  before  me  at  the 
laboratory  of  T.  A.  Edison,  Esq.,  in  Orange  in  said  ' 
county  on  the  9th  day  of  August,  A.  D.  1888,  that  each  of 
said  witnesses  was  by  me  duly  sworn  before  the  com-  „„ 
mencement  of  his  testimony ;  that  the  testimony  of  " 
each  of  said  witnesses  was  written  out  by  myself  in 
shorthand  and  afterwards  transcribed  into  longhand  in 
in  my  presence;  that  said  testimony  was  taken  at 
Orange,  aforesaid,  and  was  commenced  at  10:30  o’clock 
on  the  9th  of  August,  1888,  and  was  concluded  on  the 
same  day ;  that  I  am  not  connected  by  blood  or  mar¬ 
riage  with  either  of  said  parties,  nor  interested  directly 
or  indirectly  in  the  matter  in  controversy. 

In  witness  whereof,  I  have  hereunto  set  my  g7 
hand  and  affixed  my  seal  of  office,  at 
[seal]  Newark,  in  said  County,  this  9th  day 

of  August,  1888. 

Ww.  J.  Kearns, 

Notary  Public. 


Weston  V.  Edison  (1882) 

Benjamin  SilUmanf  Jr.r^sIlerToth^  ™“ttimony  gi-Ven  by  Edward  Weston, 

EdLna^^TclS^  X 

dynamo.  A  number  of  pages  contain  significant^ 

/?  ? 2-  -o  /-  2.3  ^ 

[n  fye  jjpt%  ojf  the  inferflmiup. 

Messrs.  Dyer  &  Wilber, 

Attorneys  of  Record  for  Edison. 

Take  notice  that  on  Monday  next,  23d  January, 
1882,  at  1  o’clock  P.  M.,  or  as  soon  thereafter  as 
practicable,  at  the  office  of  E.  Weston  in  the  Weston 
Electric  Light  Company’s  Works,  No.  23  Plane  St., 
Newark,  N.  J.,  before  competent  authority,  I  shall 
proceed  to  examine  the  witnesses  below  named, 
and  possibly  others,  on  behalf  of  said  Weston. 

The  examination  will  continue  from  day  to  day 
until  completed. 


.  M.  BAILEY, 

Att’y  for  Weston. 


1  Q.  What  is  your  name,  age,  residence  and  occu¬ 
pation,  and  are  you  one  of  the  parties  to  this  inter¬ 
ference  ? 

A.  Edward  Weston,  age  31  years,  residence 
Newark,  New  Jersey,  occupation  chemist  and  elec¬ 
trician.  I  am  one  of  the  parties  to  this  interfer¬ 

2  Q.  State  as  near  as  you  can  when  you  conceived 
the  idea  of  uniting  the  longitudinal  conductors  or 
active  coils  or  bars  of  the  rotary  armature  of  a 
dynamo  or  magneto-electric  machine  by  an  end- 
disk  connection,  and  what  led  you  to  it  ? 

A.  In  the  early  part  of  the  year  1873,  I  conceived 
of  the  use  of  an  end  disk  connection  connecting  the 
longitudinal  conductors  of  the  armature  of  a  Dyn¬ 
amo  Electric  machine.  I  was  led  to  it  on  account 
of  the  difficuly  I  had  experienced  in  winding  an  ar¬ 
mature  with  wire,  or  strips  of  sufficient  thickness 
to  enable  me  to'  obtain  a  machine  of  very  low  re¬ 
sistance  and  low  electro-motive  force,  without  the 
crossing  of  the  wires  at  the  end  of  the  armature. 

3  Q.  State  what  you  did  subsequently  towards  de¬ 
veloping  and  reducing  to  practice  the  invention,  and 
the  various  applications,  if  any,  which  you  made  of 
this  mode  of  connecting  the  longitudinal  conduc¬ 
tors;  give  a  connected  history  of  your  efforts  in  this 
direction,  specifying  dates  and  circumstances,  as  far 
as  practicable. 

A.  About  the  month  of  July,  1875,  I  constructed 
a  small  machine  having  longitudinal  conductors 
and  end  disk  connection.  The  armature  core  of 
this  was  built  up  of  a  series  of  thin  iron  rings  fas¬ 
tened  to  a  wooden  hub,  through  which  the  shaft 
passed.  The  iron  rings  and  copper  disk  for  this  ma¬ 
chine  were  made  at  the  factory  of  Stevens,  Roberts 
&  Havell,  Newark,  New  Jersey,  together  with  some 
other  work  necessary  for  the  machine.  The  ma¬ 
chine  was  finished  and  was  tried  in  my  laboratory, 
and  also  at  the  establishment  of  Harris  &  Weston, 
180  Centre  Street,  New  Tork.  This  machine  had 


only  one  commutator.  '  In  1877  I  built  another  13 
machine,  almost  identical  with  the  one  described, 
but  it  had  two  circuits  and  two  commutators,  which 
could  be  connected  up  either  in  series  or  multiple 
arc.  This  wds  in  the  early  part  of  1877.  In  the 
early  part  of  1879  I  again  took  up  the  subject,  and. 
constructed  several  machines  of  this  kind.  One  of\ 
these  machines  was  tested  in  the  plating  shop  of  f' 
the  firm  of  Roberts  &  Havell,  of  Newark,  New  J 
Jersey.  These  machines  were  all  comparatively 
small  machines.  About  this  time  several  parties 
inquired  about  machines  for  electro-metallurgical 
purposes,  which  could  be  used  without  a  stream 
of  water  to  cool  the  machine.  I  may  mention, 
amongst  others  in  this  connection,  Prof.  Silliman  ** 
of  New  Haven,  Prof.  Douglass  of  Phenixville, 

Mr.  Craske  of  New  York,  and  Mr.  Scott,  of  the 
film  of  Whitcomb  &  Co.,  of  Boston.  From  the  re¬ 
sults  I  had  obtained  from  the  small  machines,  I  told 

Prof.  Silliman  and  the  other  gentlemen  that  I  could 
build  such  machines  as  they  inquired  about,  and 
such  machines  would  be  much  more  efficient  than 
any  machine  then  in  the  market.  I  pointed  out  to 
Prof.  Silliman  aud  a  number  of  other  gentlemen 
that  the  armature  of  our  so-called  electric  light  ma¬ 
chine,  if  wound  with  copper  bars,  would  answer 
the  purpose  admirably.  I  pointed  out  the  fact, 
however,  that  the  armature  could  not  be  wound 
with  copper  bars,  without  the  use  of  flattened  end- 
pieces  or  disks,  for  connecting  the  various  sections 
of  the  armature  together. .  I  also  pointed  out  the 

fact  that  the  machine  would  be  identical  in  con¬ 
struction  and  operation  with  our  ordinary  light 
machine  in  all  other  respects,  except  that  the  com¬ 
mutator  would  have  to  be  placed  inside  the  bearings, 
because  it  would  be  impossible  to  lead  the  heavy 
conductors,  either  through  the  shaft,  or  through 
the  bushing  on  the  shaft,  as  was  done  in  the  ordin¬ 
ary  or,  so-called,  electric  light  machine. 

After  careful  calculation,  I  found  that  the  arma- 


1(5  til  re  of  our  No.  4  machine  would  answer  the  pur- 
-  pose;  and  on  the  11th  day  of  April,  1879,  I  gave 
/  instructions  to  one  of  my  men  to  order  copper  bare 
J.  and  copper  sheets  for  the  disks  for  this  armature. 

/  They  were  ordered  from  Messrs.  Staniar  &  Laffey 
v  of  East  Newark.  I  then  submitted  the  project  of 
building  a  new  frame  for  this  machine  to  the  Board 
of  Directors  of  the  Company,  who  were  operating 
.  under,  my  patents  and  manufacturing  Dynamo- 
Electric  machines.  I  wished  to  obtain  their  consent 
to  make  this  machine,  and  submitted  a  rough  esti- 
t  mate  of  the  cost.  They  would  not  approve  of  the 
matter,  unless  I  could  obtain  a  certain  amount  of 

17  cash  down  from  Prof.  Silliman.  I  explained  to 
them  that  I  was  under  certain  obligations  to  Prof. 
Silliman  to  complete  this  large  machine  and  that 

•.  I  did  not  think  it  was  wise  to  exact  such  terms, 
Because,  if  the  process  of  purifying  copper  for 
which  the  machine  was  to  be  used  proved  success¬ 
ful,  we  should  no  doubt  have  a  large  sale  of  ma- 
chiues  of  this  class.  Shortly  after  this  I  completed 
the  drawings  for  the  frame,  or,  more  properly 
speaking,  field  magnets;  but,  at  the  time,  T  could 
not  obtain  the  consent  of  the  Directors  to  construct 
the  machine,  partly  because  we  were  short  of  mon¬ 
ey,  and  also  had  some  few  large  machines  of  our 

18  regular  type  on  hand. 

From  that  time  on  I  described  the  machine  to  a 
/  number  of  persons,  and  proposed  at  the  earliest  op- 
'  portumty  to  substitute  this  type  of  machine  for  our 
large  electro-typing  and  electro-plating  machines; 
and  m  January  or  February  of.  1881,  I  told  the 
foreman  of  our  shop  not  to  build  any  more  of  the 
\  'arge  elec‘i'0-typing  or  electro-plating  machines,  as 
\  1  Pr°P°sed  use  our  ordinary  electric  light  machine 
\  armatures  wound  with  copper  bars  and  disks  in¬ 

4  Q.  What  has  become  of  the  machine  which  you 
constructed  in  the  month  of  July,  1875  ? 

A.  Parts  of  this  machine  are  still  in  my  posses- 

4*4  . 

sion;  I  cannot  state  where  the  other  parts  are-  one  1 
of  the  men,  who  works  in  the  laboratory,  has  put 
the  parts,  which  remain,  away,  and  we  could  not 
find  them  to-day;  be  is  in  Chicago,  and  he  will  be 
nere  in  about  a  week. 

S  Q.  Have  you  any  drawing  of  that  machine  in 
your  possession  ?  If  you  have  not,  will  you  please 
make  a  sketch  representing  the  general  organization 
ture  ?  machlne’  Particulal-1y  as  regards  the  arma- 

A.  I  have  no  drawing  of  the  machine  in  my 
possession;  I  have  made  a  rough  sketch  of  the  ma¬ 
chine  and  armature,  and  marked  the  various  parts 
so  that  they  can  be  understood,  and  have  also  added  ,, 
a  short  description  of  the  sketch  • 

The  sketch  referred  to  is  produced  by  wit¬ 
ness,  and  the  same  is  hereby  put  in  evidence 
and  marked  “  Weston  Exhibit  No  1,  W  H 
H.  Exr.” 

GQ.  You  have  stated  that  the  machine  built  by 
you  in  1S77  was  almost  identical  with  the  one  re 
presented  in  Weston  Exhibit  No.  1;  with  respect 
to  any  differences  between  these  two  machines  to 
what  did  these  differences  relate— to  the  end-disk 
connection,  or  to  other  parts  of  the  machine  ? 

A.  To  other  parts  of  the  machine;  there  were,  21 
however,  two  end-disk  connections  in  the  1S77  ma¬ 
chine;  the  other  differences  I  have  already  referred 
to;  the  iron  rings,  however,  were  replaced  by  thin 
iron  disks  m  this  case,  and  there  was  no  wooden 
hub;  tins  may  be  considered  an  immaterial  differ- 

7  Q.  In  s 

far  a 

the  end-disk  connection  was 
concerned,  did  the  1S75  machine  prove  satisfactory 

on  trial 
A.  It  did 

8  Q.  Did  you  test  it  more  than  once-  if 
many  times  ?  ’ 

A.  Yes;  the  machine' was  used  at  various  times, 


22  and  some  rough  measurements  of  the  strength  of 
the  current  obtained  from  it  were  made. 

9  Q.  Answer  the  same  questions,  to  wit,  questions 
7  and  8,  in  respect  to  the  1877  machine  ? 

A.  The  results  were  substantially  the  same;  dif¬ 
fering  only  in  degree. 

\  10  Q.  At  what  time  in  the  year  1877  was  your 

. ■  1877  end-disk  machine  made  ? 

A.  In  the  early  part;  I  should  say  somewhere 
about  the  month  of  April;  it  was  tried  as  soon  as 

11  Q.  Is  that  machine  still  in  your  possession  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

33  12  Q.  What  has  become  of  it,  if  you  know  ? 

f  A.  I  cannot  say,  positively;  it  may  possibly  have 
been  destroyed  in  the  fire  which  destroyed  part  of 
our  factory;  I  lost  quite  a  number  of  valuable 
things  at  that  time;  the  fire  occurred  either  in  the  ' 
latter  part  of  1S79  or  the  early  part  of  1880;  I  think 
about  January  23d,  1880. 

13  Q.  Have  you  any  drawing  of  that  machine  in 
your  possession;  if  you  have  not,  will  you  please 
make  a  sketch  of  that  machine,  particularly  as  re¬ 
gards  the  armature? 

A.  I  have  no  drawing  of  the  machine  in  my  pos¬ 
session;  I  have  made  a  rough  sketch  of  the  arma- 
,  ture,  and  marked  the  various  parts  so  that  they 
can  be  understood,  and  have  added  a  short  explana¬ 
tion  of  the  same. 

The  sketch  referred  to  is  produced  by  wit¬ 
ness,  and  the  same  is  hereby  put  in  evidence 
and  marked  “  Weston  Exhibit  No.  2,  W.  H. 

H.,  Exr.” 

New  York,  Jan’y  21th,  18S2,  ) 

10  o’clock  A.  M.  f 

Met  pursuant  to  adjournment. 


Counsel  for  the  respective  parties  as  before. 

The  witness.  Edward  Weston,  continuing,  says: 
The  commutator,  as  shown  in  the  sketch,  is  a  cylin¬ 
drical  commutator  in  which  the  strips  are  parallel 
with  the  axis,  but  they  are  curved  in  the  direction 
of  the  periphery  of  the  axis;  in  other  words, 
they  are  slightly  helical,  so  that  the  brushes  press 
on  the  respective  strips,  and  are,  consequently,  in 
contact  with  nearly  all  the  wires .  included  in  this 
part  of  the  circuit. 

This  form  of  commutator  was  modified  somewhat 
by  making  the  strips  concentric  with  the  axis  and 
with  the  planes  of  the  strips  at  right  angles  to  the 
axis;  the  result  was  substantially  the  same  in  each 
case,  but  the  latter  form  of  commutator  was  a  little 
more  easy  to  make .  The  shape  of  these  strips  on  this 
latter  form  of  commutator  (which  may,  for  conven¬ 
ience  sake,  be  called  the  disk  commutator)  was  also 
slightly  modified. 

14  Q.  You  have  stated  that  in  the  early  part  of 
1S79  you  constructed  several  machines  in  which 
the  conductors  of  the  armature  were  united  by  an 

end-disk  connection.  Have  you  any  of  tliose  ma-  : 
chines,  or  parts  of  the  same,  still  in  your  possession, 
and  if  yea,  please  produce  the  same? 

A.  I  have;  the  armature,  which  I  now  produce,  is 
part  of  one  of  the  machines. 

The  armature  produced  by  witness  is  put 
in  evidence  and  marked  “Exhibit  Weston 

No.  3,  W.  H.  H.  Exr.’ 

This  armature  is  composed  of  a  central  iron 
core  through  which  the  shaft  passes,  surrounded  by 
a  copper  conductor  connected  at  one  end  by  a  cop¬ 
per  disk.  The  cylindrical  copper  conductor,  by  its 
rotation  in  the  field  of  force,  cuts  the  lines  of  force 

2S  at  right  angles,  in  a  manner  identical  with  the  cyl¬ 
indrical  armature  described  in  my  Letters  Patent 
No.  209,532.  dated  October  29th,  1S78.  The  copper 
cylinder  may  be  looked  upon  as  an  infinite  number 
of  parallel  conductors  laid  side  by  side  on  the 
periphery  of  the  ii'on  core  and  parallel  with  the 
axis  in  all  directions  except  at  the  end.  The  cop¬ 
per  disk  at  the  end  connects  these  parallel  conduc¬ 
tors  on  each  side  of  the  axis  diametrically  across  in 
a  manner  substantially  the  same  as  that  described 
in  the  patent  above  referred  to.  And  the  disk  may 
be  looked  upon  as  an  equivalent  of  the  cross  con¬ 
necting  wires  at  the  ends  of  the  armature  in  the 
29  Patent  referred  to,  and  carries  the  current  from  one 
side  of  the  armature  to  the  other  in  the  same  way. 

It  will  be  noticed  that  the  cylindrical  conductor 
and  copper  disk  are  insulated  from  the  iron  core  by 
paper.  The  brushes  in  this  machine  were  made  to 
bear  upon  the  projecting  end  of  the  cylinder;  that 
is  to  say,  the  end  opposite  to  the  copper  disk  end; 
and  the  line  of  flow  of  currents  in  the  conductor  is 
substantially  the  same  as  the  line  of  flow  of  the 
currents  in  the  machine,  described  in  the  patent 
No.  209,532,  viz.:  On  one  side  of  the  conductor  dia¬ 
metrically  across  the  end  disk  to  the  brush,  to  the 
external  circuit,  back  to  the  brush  on  the  opposite 
oq  S^e  ^'e  cylinder.  In  other  words,  the  currents 
flow  parallel  with  the  axis  on  both  sides,  and  across 
the  end  disk,  in  the  same  way  as  in  the  wires  of  the 
armature  in  the  machine,  described  in  patent  No 
209,532.  1 

So  far  as  I  am  at  present  aware,  this  is  the  only 
part  of  any  of  these  machines  that  is  now  in  exist- 

15  Q.  What  has  become  of  these  other  machines, 
so  far  as  you  know  or  have  been  able  to  ascertain  ? 

A.  I  cannot  state  positively  anything  definite  in 
relation  to  this  matter;  the  companjr  who  were 
then  working  my  patents  were  not  financially 
strong,  and  I  was  compelled,  from  lack  of  means, 

to  put  these  things  on  one  side/ the  consequence  31 
was,  that  I  lost  many  valuable  pieces  of  apparatus 
at  the  time  of  the  fire  in  our  factory,  and  after  our 
removal  to  the  new  factory  in  Plane  street,  New¬ 
ark,  New  Jersey,  much  of  this  apparatus  was  al¬ 
lowed  to  stand  until  I  could  make  provision  for  its 
assortment  and  arrangement. 

About  this  time  we  hired  a  new  superintendent,  j 
who  was  new  at  the  business,  and,  in  straightening^ 
out  the  remnants  of  the  fire,  he  undertook,  with¬ 
out  my  knowledge,  to  straighten  out  the  apparatus 
to  which  I  have  referred,  and  before  I  was  inform¬ 
ed  of  it,  he  had  destroyed  more  or  less,  and  was  ‘ 
about  to  sell  a  large  part  of  it  for  scrap  metal ;  I 
was  very  much  annoyed  and  astonished  to  find  that  ’ " 
he  had  destroyed  in  this  way  quite  a  number  of 
machines  and  parts  of  machines  which  were  of 
great  value  to  me.  I  cannot,  however,  state  whether 
these  machines  were  destroyed  by  the  fire  or  bv 

lfi  Q.  Please  sketch  and  describe  the  machines 
made  in  the  early  part  of  1S79,  which  thus  disap¬ 
peared  ? 

A.  I  have  made  a  sketch  of  one  of  the  machines 
ihade  in  the  early  part  of  1S70  ;  this  is  the  machine 
which  I  have  already  described  as  having  been  test¬ 
ed  in  the  plating  shop  of  Messrs.  Roberts  &  Havel], 
of  Washington  street,  Newark,  New  Jersey,  in  the  33 
early  part  of  1879. 

The  sketch  referred  to  is  produced  by  wit¬ 
ness,  and  the  same  is  put  in  evidence  and 
marked  •*  Exhibit  Weston,  No.  4,  W  H  H 
Exr.”  ‘  ’’ 

The  general  construction  of  the  machine  was  the 
same  as  that  described  in  my  patent  No.  211,311 
and  dated  January  14th,  1879 ;  the  field  magnets 
being  made,  however,  entirely  of  cast  iron;  the 
circuits  on  the  armature  were  also  the  same  ;  but 
instead  of  the  over-lapping  wires  at  the  end,  ’thin 
copper  disks  were  used  to  connect  the  parallel  con- 


31  ductors  ;  these  disks  took  up  much  less  space  than 
the  wires  and  reduced  the  internal  resistance  of  the 
machine  considerably,  thus  increasing  its  efficiency; 
the  disks,  however,  performed  no  different  func¬ 
tion  from  that  of  the  over  lapping  wires  in  an  elec¬ 
trical  sense ;  this  machine  was  quite  small  and  the 
field  magnets  corresponded  exactly  in  size  and  every 
other  respect  with  field  magnets  of  our  00  light  ma¬ 
chine;  in  the  sketch  which  I  have  made,  Fig.  1 
shows  the  field  magnets  with  armature  ct,  in  posi¬ 
tion,  and  Fig.  2  the  armature  A  has  the  conductors 
running  parallel  to  the  axis  on  both  sides  of  the 
axis  and  connected  at  each  end  to  the  copper  disks 

35  0  D  and  0  D1,  and  the  wires  leading  from  the  junc¬ 
tions  of  the  copper  disks  and  parallel  conductors 
were  led  through  the  steel  bush  S  B  to  the  commu¬ 
tator  C ;  Fig.  3  is  a  diagramatic  view  of  the  conduc¬ 
tors  and  the  copper  disks,  and  Fig.  4  is  a  plan  or 
end  view  of  one  of  the  back  disks ;  this  machine 
differed  from  the  1S75  and  1877  machines  only  in 
respect  to  the  arrangement  of  the  connection  of  the 
conductors ;  in  the  one  case  they  were  connected 
up  in  multiple  arc,  in  the  other  in  series. 

.  In  the  case  in  which  the  wires  are  connected  in 
multiple  arc  it  is  only  necessary  to  use  one  disk;  on 
the  contrary,  in  the  case  in  which  it  is  desired  to  use 

3C  the  conductors  in  series,  it  is  necessary  to  use  the 
number  of  disks  corresponding  with  the  number  of 
loops  or  parallel  conductors  at  each  end  of  the  ar¬ 

17  Q.  Suppose  you  had  not  used  the  disk-end 
connection  in  your  1875  and  1877  machine,  how 
would  the  conductors  in  those  machines  have  been 
connected,  and  how  would  the  ends  of  the  arma¬ 
ture  have  appeared  2 

A.  The  conductors  would  then  have  been  con¬ 
nected  in  a  series  of  independent  loops,  by  that  por¬ 
tion  of  the  wire  which  passes  nearly  diametrically 
across  the  end  of  the  armature  furthest  from  the 
commutator ;  in  that  case  the  layers  of  wire  on  the 



end  of  the  armature  would  have  overlapped  each  37 
other, and  they  would  have  extended  out  towards  the 
bearing  considerably,  making  a  very  awkward  look¬ 
ing  job,  and  it  would  have  given  great  trouble  to  keep 
them  m  position ;  in  an  electrical  sense  the  machine 
would  not  have  been  anywhere  near  as  good  as  if 
the  copper  disk  had  been  used,  because  as  each  loop 
was  added  a  greater  length  of  wire  would  have  been 
required  to  make  the  complete  loop,  and  the  resis¬ 
tances  of  the  first  loops  would  have  differed  con¬ 
siderably  from  the  last  ones ;  such  an  armature 
would  not  have  had  a  uniform  current  in  each  con¬ 
volution  or  loop  of  the  wire,  owing  to  the  fact  of 
the  length  and  the  resistance  of  each  convolution  „ , 
differing,  3s 

Again,  all  the  wires  on  the  armature  would  not 
have  been  connected  together  with  this  system  of 
winding,  whereas,  by  the  use  of  the  disk  all  the 
wires  on  the  armature  were  connected  together. 

IS  Q.  At  the  time  you  made  the  machine,  Exhib¬ 
it  Weston  No.  4,  were  not  both  methods  of  wind¬ 
ing  the  armature  known,  to  wit :  in  multiple  arc 
and  in  series! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  very  well  known  to  persons  skilled 
m  the  art. 

19  Q.  State  whether  or  not,  assuming  the  cross¬ 
disk  connection  had  before  been  used  with  multiple 
arc  winding,  would  there  be  difficulty,  mechanically  39 
or  electrically,  in  applying  the  same  method  of  con¬ 
nection  to  an  armature  wound  in  series,  as  repre¬ 
sented  in  your  Exhibit  No.  42 

A.  There  would  be  no  difficulty  which  anyone 
with  ordinary  mechanical  skill  could  not  overcome; 
it  is  simply  a  question  of  making  proper  joints  be¬ 
tween  the  copper  disks  and  the  conducting  bare  or 

20  Q.  State,  as  nearly  as  you  can,  at  what  time 
in  1S79  the  machine  represented  in  your  Exhibit 
No.  4  was  completed? 

A.  It  must  have  been  prior  to  the  time  of  giving 

the  order  for  the  copper  bars  and  disks  for  the  large 
machine,  which,  to  the  best  of  my  recollection, 
was  April  11th,  1879. 

21  Q.  How. soon  after  was  it.tested  at  the  shop  of 
Roberts  &  Havell  2 

A.  Very  shortly  after  its  completion;  I  could  not 
state  the  exact  time;  it  could  not,  however,  be 
more  than  a  few  days. 

22  Q.  At  the  time  the  test  was  made,  were  there 
any  other  dynamo-electric  machines  in  use  at  the 
shop  of  Roberts  &  Havell  ? 

A.  Yes;  in  their  general  work  they  used  a  ma¬ 
chine  like  that  one  described  in  my  patent  No. 
10S,0S2,  dated  July  18th,  1878. 

23  Q.  In  what  respect,  if  any,  did  your  disk-end 
connection  machine  differ  in  general  appearance, 
as  regards  the  frame.  &c.,  from  Roberts  &  Havell’s 
machine  2 

A.  It  had  flat  magnets,  which  were  open  to  view 
and  resembled  exactly  in  appearance  what  was 
known  as  our  electric  light  machine.  On  the  con¬ 
trary,  the  machine  which  they  used  regularly  in 
the  operation  of  plating  was  cylindrical  in  form, 
and  the  magnets  were  hidden  from  view  by  covers 
on  each  end  of  the  cylinder.  It  was  one  of  our  reg¬ 
ular  type  of  plating  machines. 

This  machine  also  required  a  stream  of  water  to 
keep  the  magnets  and  armature  cool;  whereas,  the 
modified  electric  light  machine  required  no  water. 

24  Q.  So  far  as  you  recollect,  did  you  test  more 
than  one  machine  at  the  shop  of  Roberts  &  Havell 
during  the  fore  part  of  1879  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

25  Q.  Have  you  the  drawings  of  the  large  disk- 

end  connection  machine  which  you  say  was  com- 
pleted_jn_Qctober,  1879?  iryeSTldiSrprod^' 
them.  . 

A.  I  have,  and  herewith  produce  them. 

The  drawings  referred  to  are  produced  by 
witness,  six  sheets  in  all,  and  are  put  in  evi¬ 

dence  and  marked  “  Exhibit  Weston,  No.  5, 
W.  H.  H.,  Exr.” 

26  Q.  State  whether  these  drawings  are  working 
drawings,  and  give  such  explanation  as  may  be  ne¬ 
cessary  to  an  understanding  of  them. 

A.  They  are  working  drawings  of  a  machine  de¬ 
signed  for  the  Phenixville  Copper  Company  of  Phe- 
nixville,  Pennsylvania.  The  machine  was  to  be 
used  for  the  purpose  of  refining  copper.  The  draw¬ 
ings  are  made  to  a  scale  of  one-half.  Sheet  No.  1, 
shows  a  side  and  end  elevation  of  the  machine,  with 
the  shaft  in  its  bearings;  the  bearing  further  from 
the  pulley  is  the  place  where  the  commutator  is  fixed. 
This  machine  was  specially  designed  to  allow  of  the 
commutator  being  placed  inside  the  bearing,  be- 
-  tween  the  end  of  the  bearing  and  the  armature. 
Owing  to  the  dimensions  of  the  bars  or  copper  con¬ 
ductors  on  the  armature,  and  the  volume  of  the 
current  which  would  have  been  obtained,  the  space 
between  the  end  of  the  bearing  and  the  end  of  the 
flanged  air-tube,  which  is  common  to  my  machines 
of  this  type,  was  unusually  large,  so  as  to  admit  of 
the  use  of  a  very  long  and  heavy  commutator. 

It  will  be  noticed  in  this  drawing  that  the  bear¬ 
ing  at  this  end  of  the  machine  has  been  curved  out¬ 
ward,  m  order  to  secure  more  space  at  this  point. 
The  brushes  for  this,  machine  were  also  unusually 
large,  so  as  to  avoid  loss  of  useful  effect  by  the  cur¬ 
rent  heating  these  parts  of  the  machine. 

Sheet  No.  2  is  a  plan  of  the  same  machine,  with 
the  addition  of  the  brass  quadrant  in  front,  for  the 
purpose  of  adjusting  the  position  of  the  brushes  in 
relation  to  the  commutator. 

Sheet  No.  3  is  a  plan  view  and  sections  of  the 

Sheet  No.  -t  shows  details  of  the  bearings. 

Sheet  No.  5  shows  details  of  the  quadrant,  with 
the  slotted  grooves  through  which  screws  were  to 
be  passed  to  hold  the  quadrant  in  position,  and  at 
the  same  time  to  permit  of  its  adjustment  within 

the  limits  of  the  slots  and  consequent  adjustment 
of  brushes  in  relation  to  the  commutator. 

Sheet  No.  0  shows  full  sized  details  of  the  massive 
brush  holder  and  rod  which  carried  the  same,  and 
by  which  the  brush  holders  were  to  be  connected  to 
the  quadrant.  ' 

This  machine  differed  radically  in  design  and  ap¬ 
pearance  from  our  then  well  known  standard  light 
machines,  in  the  following  respects  : 

The  magnets  were  changed  from  the  horizontal 
to  the  vertical  position,  and  the  machine  stood  on  a 
base  somewhat  similar  to  the  base  used  in  our  ob¬ 
solete  form  of  light  machines.  These  changes  were 
necessitated  by  the  enormous  size  of  the  conductors 
or  bars,  which  were  to  be  used  on  the  armature  ; 
the  total  cross-section  of  the  conductor  being  some¬ 
where  near  a  square  inch.  The  machine  also  differs 
from  our  light  machine  in  respects  to  the  position 
of  the  commutator,  as  I  have  already  pointed  out. 
The  usual  and  very  convenient  plan  of  placing  the 
commutator  outside  of  the  bearing  had  in  this  case 
to  be  abandoned,  on  account  of  the  large  size  of  the 
conductors  leading  to  the  respective  strips  or  sec¬ 
tions  of  the  commutator.  The  quadrant  also 
differed  very  radically  from  the  quadrant  used 
on  the  light  machines,  and  was  almost  identical 
in  construction  with  the  quadrant  on  our  large 
sized  circular  or  ordinary  placing  machines.  The 
brush  holder  also  differed  very  radically  from 
the  light  machine  brush  holder's,  both  in  design 
and  size.  In  fact  the  whole  machine  was  de¬ 
signed  with  special  reference  to  the  purpose  for 
which  it  was  intended,  viz.  :  to  furnish  currents 
of  enormous  volume,  and  to  have  a  very  low  electro¬ 
motive  force.  The  armature  for  which  this  machine 
was  designed  was  exactly  the  same  in  size  and  con¬ 
struction  as  the  armature  of  our  so-called  No.  4 
light  machine;  but  the  shaft  was  made  longer  to 
accommodate  the  large  commutator.  For  this  rea¬ 
son  it  was  unnecessary  to  make  detailed  drawings 

of  the  armature,  as  we  were  regularly  manufactur¬ 
ing  such  armatures.  The  bars  of  copper  were  to  be 
of  the  exact  size  of  the  slots  or  grooves  in  the  peri¬ 
phery  of  the  armature,  minus  the  space  required 
for  the  insulation,  and  the  copper  disks  were  to  he 
one  quarter  of  an  inch  thick.  There  were  sixteen 
slots  or  grooves  on  the  periphery  of  the  armature, 
this  called  for  eight  loops  and  sixteen  disks  for  each 
of  the  parallel  conductors,  of  in  all.  sixteen  loops. 
The  drawings  were  shown  to  several  parties,  and 
the  construction  of  the  armature,  was  explained. 

The  copperdisks  were  to  be  cut  out  so  as  to  slip  in  • 
side  the  projecting  font-  extensions  and  ears  from 
the  loops  were  to  be  made  to  connect  with  diame¬ 
trically  opposite  ears  at  the  back  or  pulley  end  of 
the  armature,  and  the  disks  at  the  front  end  were 
made  in  the  same  way,  except  that  one  of  the  ears 
was  to  be  placed  one-sixteenth  of  the  total  circum¬ 
ference  of  the  armature  out  of  the  true  diameter. 
The  bars  were  to  be  screwed  by  copper  screws  to 
the  lugs  or  ears  of  the  disks,  and  as  a  further  means 
of  securing  good  electrical  contact,  the  bai-s  and 
lugs  of  the  disks  were  to  be  what  is  technically 
known  as  sweat  together;  m  other  words,  they 
were  to  be  soldered  together  by  as  thin  a  film  of 
solder  as  it  was  possible  to  obtain.  The  bars  and 
disks  wore  to  be  insulated  from  each  other  and 

from  the  iron  core  or  armature  by  means  of  asbes-  1 
•  tos  paper. 

I  herewith  produce  a  full  sized  No.  4  armature 
such  as  we  were  building  at  that  time,  and  which 
was  to  be  used  in  the  machines,  drawings  of  which 
have  already  been  introduced. 

The  armature  referred  to  is  produced  by 
witness,  and  is  put  in  evidence  and  marked 
“Exhibit  Weston  No.  C,  W.  H.  H.,  Exr.” 

The  disks  and  bars  in  this  machine  were  to  be 

connected  up  in  the  manner  described  by  me  in 
patent  No.  209,532,  that-  is,  in  series,  and  so  that 
the  two  parallel  conductors  thus  formed  were  con- 



52  nected  in  multiple  arc  in  the  mariner  therein  de¬ 
scribed.  The  connections  of  the  junctions  of  the 
bars  and  disks  were  the  equivalents  of  the  loops 
therein  described,  and  they  were  to  be  connected  to 
the  sections  of  the  commutator  in  substantially 
the  same  manner;  bearing  in  mind,  of  course,  the 
difference  in  size,  of  the  conductors  of  the  two  ma¬ 
chines.  In  the  machine  described  in  the  patent,  as 
I  have  already  stated,  the  wires  were  led  through 
the  bushing  to  the  commutator,  while  in  the  latter 
case  it  could  not  be  done. 

2T  Q.  Please  explain  how  it  was  that  after  you 
made,  and  tested  your  1875  machine  you  did  not 

53  sooner  make  use  of  the  disk-end  connection  in  your 
business  ? 

A.  At  the  time  named  there  were  but  very 
few  Dynamo-electric  machines  in  practical  use  in 
this  country,  and  the  use  of  such  machines  was 
limited  almost  entirely  to  electro-plating,  and  for 
the  production  of  currents  for  the  electric  light, 
which  was  practically  limited  in  its  use,  being  con¬ 
fined  mainly  to  colleges,  and  large  schools  or  centres 
of  learning.  Neither  was  there  any  demand  for 
such  machines.  The  demand  had,  in  other  words, 
yet  to  be  created.  One  or  two  men  had  made  at¬ 
tempts  to  introduce  such  machines  generallv 
amongst  electro-platers,  but  the  price  asked  for  the 
machines  prevented  the  sale  of  more  thau  a  few  to 
some  of  the  very  large  concerns  engaged  in  the 
business  of  the  electro-deposition  of  metals  in  this 

From  my  own  experience  in  that  business  and 
long  continued  use  of  machines  for  this  purpose,  I 
was  perfectly  convinced  that  if  a  cheap,  reliable 
and*basily  managed  machine  could  be  designed  and 
presented  to  electro-platers  generally,  they  would 
soon  give  up  the  costly  and  troublesome  ways  then 
in  common  use  for  the  generation  of  electricity 
by  chemical  means.  With  this  object  in  view  I  de¬ 
signed  the  circular  machine  described  in  my  patent 


No.  108,OS2.  Tills  machine  had  many  excellent  55 
qualities;  and  amongst  others  was  its  low  first  cost 
and,  from  the  peculiar  construction  of  its  armature, 
great  durability.  Owing  to  the  simplicity  of  the 
commutator  and  other  wearing  parts  of  the  ma¬ 
chine,  and  the  small  amount  of  material  which  was 
required  to  produce  a  given  effect,  I  selected  this  as 
being  the  best  adapted  to  the  general  wants  of  the 
only  customers  of  any  consequence  that  you  could 
then  expect  to  secure,  viz.:  electro-platers  and  elec- 
'  tro-typers.  I  succeeded  in  interesting  some  capi¬ 
talists  in  this  business  and  commenced  to  manufac¬ 
ture  these  machines.  At  the  time  named  it  would 
have  been  difficult,  if  not  impossible,  to  obtain  or-  -- 
ders  for  large  and  costly  machines  such  as  are  now  °  ' 
in  demand.  In  other  words,  but  few  electro-platei-s 
and  electro-typers  could  have  been  induced  to  pur- 
•  chase  large  and  costly  machines,  and  to  succeed  at 
all  it  was  necessary  to  build  a  machine  that  was 
small,  compact,  cheap  and  easily  managed,  even 
though  efficiency  was  sacrified  to  a  large  extent. 

With  the  then  common  knowledge  in  relation  to 
the  efficiency  of  machines  and  the  influence  of  size 
ill  the  respective  parts  of  the  machines,  I  do  not 
hesitate  to  say  that  if  I  had  attempted  to  introduce 
the  machine  to  which  you  refer  the  business  would 
have  proved  a  failure. 

The  conditions,  during  the  past  two  years  par-  57 
ticularly,  have  materially  changed  ;  the  electric 
light  has  become  a  commercial  success,  and  the 
business  has  developed  enormously ;  whereas  the 
business  of  the  manufacture  of  Dynamo-electric 
machines  in  ISTS.could  be  counted  by  a  few  thou- 


1-58  amount  of  labor  on  the  part  of  parties  connected 
\  with  the  business,  and  has  caused  a  demand  for 

theCutm%m  WhlC!1  thG  qUesti0I‘  of  efficiency  is  of 
he  utmos  importance,  and  the  size  and  weight  of 

LZrS,Snf-n°'Vtaken  into  consideration 
f '  e  ,pt  under  sPeclal  circumstances.  In  other  words 
’  ™“olnne which  has  “ow  become  popular 

r  is  radically  different  from  the  machines  which  were 
'  f  rramnTnat  ‘he ‘-‘me  to  which  you  refer 
,  ■  These  facts  had  great  weight  with  me  in  my  selec 

'  aC°e  refeerredUlai'f0rm0f  machille  to  w>™h  I  have 

i  -  “a 

-  ^££s^z,sszsisz 

SS  ,  , ?  b,,th  “>•  P«Po..  o£  „»oS 

1  . ght  and  electroiypmg,  or,  more  properly  speak 

\i  ’"g’.  electro-metallurgical  purposes ;  but  from  the 

your  possession,  but  that  they  could  not  he  foind 

1,0  ZTtafT  10 

put  them  away— please  state  what  means  if  nm 
you  have  taken  to  obtain  them  ?  ’  any' 

to theAm!nff iQg  t0  fmd  them  We  telegraphed 

to  tlie  man  to  ascertain  what  he  di